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A lot of characters are sadly designed similarly. Most of the cast's dash attacks all pop up slightly to be followed by (insert bread and butter move). The issue with Zelda is that she's pretty slow.. and if you let her hit you, then you made a bad approach or error in spacing. Complaining about getting kicked off of Dins I could maybe understand more, but I think they aren't nearly as controlling as people make them, many characters can nairplane throuh them, etc.
Those are all very good points. You probably know more about Zelda than I do.
I'd love to see a list of other moves with the same hitbox sizes of rest, because I've messed around with Zelda after having 0 play experience and her fair/bair are NOT difficult to land with the heel hitbox. Also, I disagree with this whole design philosophy of "difficulty of execution is a fair counterbalance for strength of a move" because someone who is a top player will learn the spacing extremely well and then it doesn't matter, does it.
I feel that is only one of the types of ways they tried to balance her. She fits into the category of a glass canon. Since her mobility is so limited, which becomes more and more apparent the further up the skill ladder of your opponent, she gets far less chances to land with it against these said opponents who know the matchup well. Thus, she NEEDS the ability to hit hard. The critical lightning kick also already took a nerf with 3.0. A critical lightning kick should just about never hit an opponent in the neutral game who knows the MU and is good with spacing. As for combos, she only has a few options that allow a good chance to land it and those options become increasingly limited by percentages and the opponent's DI. Keep in mind I'm coming from the view point of viewing this MU at a really competitive level as opposed to casual play.
People say this **** but you can't point me to a high level PM set where the critical lightning kick doesn't net at LEAST 2 kills.
First off, thanks for sharing your opinion on this stuff. There are a few points I don't agree with and I'd like to discuss them with you. I also just popped in my copy of PM and testing some of this stuff right now to double check. I can see why Ness would have a hard match up with Zelda.
) are all changes that make sense and that I would even hope for in a future version. I don't think her kicks need changes though, simply because she's easy to lock down on the ground. Lightning kick is indeed one of Zelda's most versatile moves, filling in many functions like approaching, defensive spacing, comboing, and KOing. However, these functions can also be compared to e.g. Knee, Fox's or Sheik's bair, and most sex kicks.
You know, that little part about Usmash's first multi hit being like that, I actually didn't know! ^ ^ That's pretty interesting.NZA I like a lot of your ideas. Things like changing the graphics on Nayru's Love, increasing Din's Fire hurtbox size, maybe even making the explosions smaller (hard to set my bias aside on that one
I'd like to contest your idea of the relative safety of Din's Fire while channeling; the hitbox on the fireball doesn't come out until she lets go and she's completely vulnerable otherwise. She can choose between increased mobility at the tradeoff of decreased safety and decreased utility of her traps (because Zelda needs to be conscious of the placement, order, and timing of her fireballs in order for them to be effective). I also disagree with usmash being low risk/high reward. The endlag of usmash is quite punishable and the range is not very good. Even on hit, the opponent can SDI the first hit to not eat the usmash (like Fox uair) or they can avoid the followup at medium percents by SDIing the last hit.
The rest of your points are valid imo, but when you take out what I said above, it doesn't seem excessive, especially in comparison to the rest of the cast's abilities.
I don't really think Zelda is glass cannonish. Sure, she dies at lower percents off the top than most characters, BUT she also has the one of the strongest anti-combo games. Normally, Ness can dthrow uair kill characters like Ivy/Zelda/Peach at 75-80%. I did this to Rizner a few times to great success, but when I tried it on Zhime, he love jumped out of the aerial and I was left being like "what...the..****". Zelda is not easy to combo and not so easy to kill that justifies the "cannon" that she comes equipped with.
I hope you trust I have more experience than you in the matchup as I parse through your advice. And while I am really touched that you took the time to try and give some topical matchup advice, a lot of it isn't particularly strong or is "scratching the surface adaption" that I am already doing. Batting her in neutral is an intresting idea, and it is worth noting that Her only good responses to it are dash attack. But I would never bat a Din's fire when I can use an aerial on it (and I do that quite a bit). Also, absorbing dins fire is great when your far away, but close up, you are asking to be faired.
On contraire, you can't compare her fair with a knee, or a fox bair, or a sex kick because it kills at least 10% earlier than a falcon knee, and has the length of like...a marth fair. Its literally ALWAYS a gamble for Ness to contest her in the air, because of the risk of eating a fair which (at its tippered/maximum distance) can kill you at 60-70%. That move is silly. Like, really really silly. And no, I don't think its hard to hit with. I, a total noob with Zelda who usually sucks at playing new characters, can land it with some regularity in a match. If it has to keep its same power, I would motion for it to have a longer cooldown. But honestly, I think any 5 frame aerial with that kind of range, power, and safeness can only be bad for the game. Especially when you take into account how fluid she is in the air with her air mobility (that really shocked me when I started playing as her, since I've always heard of how immobile she is).NZA I like a lot of your ideas. Things like changing the graphics on Nayru's Love, increasing Din's Fire hurtbox size, maybe even making the explosions smaller (hard to set my bias aside on that one
This tradeoff you speak of, isn't that big a tradeoff at all. That's my issue. That she doesn't significantly take a hit in mobility when shes drifting backwards shooting a din's fire. In fact, it aids her recovery onto the stage by propelling her forward and slowing her descent. I think Zelda needs to take a REAL risk when using din's fire, and that has to be MORE than just an opportunity cost of "oh I could be doing a different move". Because she can jump backwards and drift and din's fire combined with her ability to teleport past someone to the other side of hte map, she can essentially stay pretty mobile in her camping.
1. She's not immobile in the air. Relative to the cast, she might be less mobile, but she doesn't have difficulty weaving into the angles she needs to. She's no shiek in the air by any measure (meaning sheik weaves way worse in the air). On the ground, your right, she doesn't move particularly spryly, but she also never really has to... Like, I'm not convinced if her ability to run was improved, if that would actually translate into a stronger character since her ground toolset is pretty optimal for her stand still or dance in the air playstyle.
1. The jigglypuff Rest argument is a TOTAL strawman fallacy. Jigglypuffs rest is NOT balanced by its difficulty of use (which I've already pointed out), or its lack of range (which, regardless of hitbox sizes, Zelda's fair/bair are much longer ranged). Jigglypuffs rest is balanced by the fact that she essentially gives up her stock if she misses (and sometimes even after she hits) when she is above like 40%. People like me arguing about the power of her fair/bair have NEVER said "there should be no move in the game with greater power than the knee". We have been arguing that there shouldn't be a move with close to the range of marth's fair, more powerful than the knee, with 5 frames of startup and a low cooldown (which makes it so even when you miss, you can often get a second try). It's cheesy, extremely powerful, does not fall into the smart system of comparable risk and reward.
Hey man, nice of you to drop in. I wouldn't say there aren't many high placements of Zelda in tourney--there was you and Salem in top 32 (and probably others). Of course, I would make the argument that there aren't many high placements of ANY character not named "Fox, Falco, Bowser, Marth, Metaknight??, Wolf?? and Mario". That doesn't mean Ike is in a bad place, or DK, or DDD, or Pit. I would say you have as many major tourney wins with Zelda as anyone has with any other character that is agreed upon to be really good.
I noticed that among that list you did not include Zelda despite her critical sweet spot lightning kicks. As I understand it, the point of Project M is to create a game where any character can be viable. In her current form, Zelda players have their best chance they have ever had to compete with those characters that you mentioned. If those characters are not going to be brought down to the rest of the cast, it makes no sense to nerf Zelda when currently she only has the CHANCE to compete with those characters. Zhime is ONE Zelda that has performed well (top placing) in highly competitive tournaments, ONE. To nerf her now would highly seem to suggest that people simply don't want to see Zelda perform well. What Zhime proved was that Zelda has the potential to perform well. So until we see a spike in the number of Zeldas that surpasses those characters you mentioned, there is no reason she needs to take any sort of hit. All I'm suggesting is to give it more time. It is clearly way too soon to decide if she needs to be changed.
I'm not really sure what your first sentence means...but I don't think a character needs to be proven broken in order to be relegated to the status of "flawed design". For example, Wario's downsmash nerf/DKs downb range nerf/Ivysaurs changes weren't done because those characters were dominating everything they were in and were broken. They were redesigned because aspects to their moveset were toxic. I am making the argument that aspects of Zelda are very toxic, regardless of tourney wins.
Melee lightening kicks were apparently too strong, according to Zhime, when Ryoko and him played around with that idea.
As you know I've always thought that she needs a few subtle BUFFS. You've heard me talk about them before so I won't mention anymore on that subject. @
The_NZA
I feel that her weaknesses are so pronounced that for one to not capitalize on them is by no means an error on the behalf of the character designer and every bit the person's fault for not knowing the MU. I'm not saying that you are guilty of doing this, I just believe that if a character is to be nerfed, it is because there is no reward in exploiting their weaknesses. I just hopped on this thread so, if my input has no real relevance to the topic at hand, I apologize.
I totally agree that toxic elements are unfavorable. The point I am trying to make is that characters that are dominating the entire cast right now, for example fox, have these toxic elements and don't seem to be getting nerfed. The shield pressure he can exert makes it impossible to deal with if performed perfectly and he can create that opportunity regularly due to his incredible mobility. If we're going by the same logic that was discussed with the critical Lightning Kicks, that is difficulty to perform shouldn't be a factor because a highly skilled player will be able to deal with it, then Fox is a perfect example of one of these toxic elements though he is not getting hit. In regards to Zelda, I personally don't feel her critical Lightning Kicks fit into this element especially when you take her entire character design into account. I realize we're probably just going to have a difference of opinion on that subject which is fine.
People also say that the ICs are broken, but professional ICs know how hard it is to get a grab that can lead into a chain. Now if their grab range rivaled that of Marth's, then the toxicness would kill you. But they don't, so they're not. Like I said, characters can have great moves as long as their weaknesses can be exploited.
As I hope I've made clear, you won't find me disagreeing that Fox is also indeed toxic. But I posted in this topic--A topic that specifically calls out "zelda haters" and attempts to teach them the ins and outs of moves that they may be losing to, as a way to broach a conversation on whether Zelda ought or ought not be changed. This is NOT a topic about Fox and his toxic elements, so please, lets talk about Zelda here.
The up smash isn't the problem, it's the nair planes and the shine pressure. His up smash could be Ganondorf's Brawl up tilt, and he'd still be a poison pill.
No worries man. I wasn't trying to suggest that you are biased die hard Fox supporter, and yes I would also appreciate the topic being focused on Zelda. I was merely mentioning that character to make a point in regards to Zelda, not to focus on Fox. That point was to express that Zelda, IMO, should continue to have the critical Lightning Kick in its current form in regards to how the rest of the cast is currently shaped. From that point of view, I think it is important to reference other characters from time to time. We do , afterall, need to view Zelda in the context of how she relates to the rest of the cast and we can only go by what we currently have.
DIfferent people have different opinions on the problem. I don't need to change this topic to be a "what's wrong with fox" topic. Although, I do find it interesting that many Zelda players use Fox as a shield to defend some of her design. I remember even Zhime in person told me "it's really not any more ridiculous than Fox's usmash". Thats the thing to me...we should be moving away from moves with those absurd properties--Not moving towards them.
I feel that whatever changes are made to her, that her side b remains the same, I feel that her strengths are amazing, but her faults are equally (maybe a tad less) spectacular. I want to keep the traps and the fair, bair, and teledash, but PM can do what they do best with everything else.
No, but have you seen the sweetspots on them, they're tiny! As for power, the Knee, the Shadow Claw. The power of it is actually bad for her, it makes it so it's hard to combo without dins.
Are you saying that characters should all be like Brawl Mario? It's okay for a character to have absurd strengths, I don't believe that Fox should be nerfed, his weaknesses are just as exploitable as his assets. No one wanted Brawl Ganondorf to be nerfed, and he has the stupid powerful neutral b!
I agree with you about moving away from moves with absurd properties. I think Fox is probably regularly referenced, by more than just Zeldas, because he is commonly regarded as the best character in the game within the community for a second time as he was in Melee. I feel that unfortunately we are not moving away from those moves, and that element really comes down to people's differing opinions of what should belong in Smash. If these moves with absurd properties are going to exist though, whether we like it or not, I feel it isn't OP for Zelda to have one. This is a point for those who feel the critical Lightning Kick falls under that category. As I have already stated, based on how the move is constructed and within the context of the character, I do not feel it even qualifies as such.
Just a question: Are you saying that the PMBR should completely overhaul Zelda because one move is over powered or do you just want that move to be hit with the nerf bat?
Like Zhime said, the sweetspot is as hard to hit with as rest. I say that she is perfectly balanced and if you take anything away from her, she'll be garbage. Now, a few small buffs wouldn't hurt her. Such as: teledashing off the respawn platform, or the immense startup of aerial up b being canceled if you touch ground during its startup.
Correction: Zhime said the hitbox is as big as rest. Not that it was as hard to hit with.
So it is smaller but perhaps more ideal to land since the Lightning Kick isn't focused on Zelda's body while it is for Jiggs.
So it's easier to hit with but harder so that means I'm right.
