DarkStarStorm
Smash Ace
The telegame is awful on FD, but on a stage with platforms, it's amazing!
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Zelda Balance and MU Learning
- Thread starter WhiteLightnin
- Start date
ShadowGanon
Smash Lord
Unless you get insta-read every time. lol.
No, I'm never going to let you hear the end of that, Dark.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I'll go through this slightly out of order:
1. I agree with you that other characters want to mitigate interaction from the opponent. That's what dashdancing is all about, for example. However, once you get most of those characters in a bad position, it is relatively easy to keep them in a bad position to extend your punishment game. This is not the case with Zelda and Jigglypuff. Once you get them in a bad position, it is substantially harder to keep them there, and the punishment game is extremely nullified. I have an issue with Zelda's neutral game, which I'll get to, but I don't mind her as a ranged fighter. This seems to be the core of your argument, and I largely agree with most of what you are saying concerning how she should play out.
2. Ideally, you want to balance interaction among the cast in a way that is normalized. You start with a set of rules, put some interactions to those rules, and then add deviations. Zelda's kick is not "okay" because CF has a knee. That's a faulty way to go about it. Similarly, Zelda's ability to negate punishment games is not justified by Jigglypuff having a similar attribute. Those qualities are degenerate to the point that those characters are polarized towards them. We should not go out of our way to repeat things like Fox's upsmash, for example. And while these things are borderline acceptable for this game, we should be trying to avoid making more polarized instances of this problem.
When other players tell you that they don't like Nayru's, what they're actually saying is "I don't like having a large portion of my punishment game nullified when I feel like I should have you" - and by all rights they would have any other character. Even Jigglypuff has to adhere to the opponent's positioning options when she's been put into a bad position. When I played Zhime, I said "this move is stupid I can't punish you with anything but clean combos", to which he said "then combo better". This is a flawed perspective because every other character in the game is susceptible to more punishment from "dirty" combos based or re-engagements from positional advantage or juggling (they're very similar honestly). Zelda does not do this. Zelda can use combo DI to get away from the opponent to always keep Nayru's live as an escape option. As the opponent, you can't chaingrab her, you can't re-engage her over and over with positional advantage, you can't really juggle her past a couple hits, and her combo weight is already naturally combo-resilient so clean combos are extremely limited at best. Anything that's close to a true combo risks eating a 50/50 since Nayru's from a poor position can let her convert on you right back. You ever combo a falco player and mid-combo he shines you out of it and combos you back for like 60%? Zelda does that in the air, with more range, more invincibility, and she's MUCH more resilient to punishment than falco is. Your best option for beating her is to hit her with strong attacks from neutral over and over, but the character is almost strictly designed to deal with that from neutral too. This is not normalized interaction. And it's all based on one move. I understand why everyone else hates it and I agree with them. Having a few mediocre ways to not lose to it does not make it acceptable.
3. Predictive play is not a good way to play a smash game. Predictive play is essentially putting yourself into a position where you think you can outplay the opponent regularly. It is much better to retain your options and to choose the best option when it is suitable for you to do so (reactive play). Playing predictive is bad, bad, news against a character that is perfectly okay trading 50/50 with you like Zelda is. If predictive play is your recommended way to fight her, that in itself is already problematic.
I'll try to summarize why I personally think Zelda has a poor design:
- Polarity towards camping. I don't mind Zelda's playstyle as a defensive character, but she is too polarized towards that, IMO. I think her offensive options should be improved. Right now, every match with a Zelda in it is Zelda camps you and you camp her and the first one to stop camping loses. Having a character where every single MU she has becomes about both players camping is a huge red flag. Giving her some offensive options while reducing her defenses should fix this by normalizing her character.
- Inability to punish properly. Nayru's is just a problematic move and that's all there is to it. I also think that the coming out of up B hit should not send a hit opponent into aerial tumble at 0%. This makes it way unnecessarily hard to edge guard a character that already has a fantastic recovery. She can keep the recovery, but the opponents should also have the ability to cover her options to some degree rather than guessing. This should normalize her recovery. Nayru's is just absurd and really needs to be examined.
- Her punishment game. While not addressed by your post, I dislike that she has 3 kick hitboxes. The dual strong kick only has 3 outcomes:
1. The super kick is too hard to land, and the move feels underwhelming.
2. The super kick is too easy to land, and the move feels absurd.
3. The super kick is just difficult enough to land, where sometimes you get it and sometimes you don't, and the move feels like it has unnecessary variance.
I think the kick should just go back to the simplified version where it's either strong or weak, and kills at 90, rather than sometimes killing at 60 and other times killing at 110. I also dislike that her entire character is crouch proof and functionally safe on shield, but I'm not sure that those are truly problematic so it's just something to note and go back to later. I don't think it needs to be addressed right now.
- Unnecessary complexity. I think that Zelda and Snake essentially force you to re-learn how to play the game when you're playing against them. Not having principles and a unified method of how to interact against these opponents is hugely detrimental. I agree with the idea that the player should have to learn the match-up to be successful, but these two characters push that idea way too far. I think normalizing her with the above ideas will go a long way to making Zelda behave like the other characters in the cast and should solve this issue on its own.
@ Bolded, I can dig this idea, her recovery IS pretty good.
As long as it could eventually knock down at maybe, later mid percents.
TimeSmash
Smash Champion
I know this is a tad off-topic, but there really needs to be a name for the "hit that comes out of Up B." Something simple, so we all know what it is we're talking about without having to be so wordy.
Anyone have ideas? Teleburn? Something like that?
Anyone have ideas? Teleburn? Something like that?
I always called it the "reappear hit" or something like that myself.
Also, something (also off-topic) I never liked is that the reappear hit is fire element. This makes no sense to me. Does anyone else feel this way?
Also, something (also off-topic) I never liked is that the reappear hit is fire element. This makes no sense to me. Does anyone else feel this way?
TimeSmash
Smash Champion
It's odd it isn't wind or that it doesn't make a cutting type of sound.
jtm94
Smash Lord
I agree with 99% of what Umbreon said, aside for some slight discrepancies. The end teleport hit is fine, get rid of it. I am completely fine with Nayru's Love being remade or abolished entirely, I don't need the move to win. I agree she needs better offense options than jumping kick or Nayru's. Too often is Din's Fire the "savior" to all of Zelda's problems. No, what it is is a crutch, not a supplement imo to her bad approach options. Now the move can do really col things and you can punish, but I think as a whole the move is underwhelming in many scenarios while being contrastingly overwhelming in others.
I disagree ENTIRELY against her being crouch-proof and safe on shield. So many times do these hurt me when used by the opponent, and I'm really not up for debating this because I run into these issues A LOT.
I disagree ENTIRELY against her being crouch-proof and safe on shield. So many times do these hurt me when used by the opponent, and I'm really not up for debating this because I run into these issues A LOT.
PsionicSabreur
Smash Journeyman
In a game with so many character matchups to learn, it's important that there be a certain level of intuition that a player can rely on, rather than matchup learning being focused on character-specific counter-techniques forty times over. The main overarching problem I have with Zelda is that learning her matchup seems to require a lot of the latter, which isn't such a problem at theoretical high-level play but makes the process of learning her matchup needlessly frustrating and difficult (hence the general statement that Zelda is a "noobslayer," or something to that effect) and contributes poorly to the game's learning curve.
To be clear, I think that Zelda has plenty of well-designed qualities, and there's no arguing that she isn't representing a unique playstyle. I certainly don't think she is OP and deserves heavy nerfs, either.
As far as Din's fire goes, there are several ways in which it tends to make the spacing game feel imprecise and unintuitive, which contradicts the fundamentals that make spacing function so smoothly and dynamically for other characters.
The current graphic is a bit visually unintuitive to work around. The multi-explosion effect isn't readable to either player unless they specifically divert attention to stop and count to 3 seconds (Or 158 frames? I've found that value on an old frame data thread and I don't know if I can count on it, or to it for that matter). So, watching for 6 bursts whenever a Din's trap is set, which is a counter-technique that only contributes to the Zelda matchup. It's fine that Zelda can make the opponent play her game zoning-wise, but eating a 15% explosion (give or take) with the potential for uair/fair followups or outright KOs for not keeping a diligent count while daring to approach, retreat, dashdance, etc. near the edge of a mined area can be a little ridiculous. Furthermore, Zelda takes no risk of having her traps used against her, unlike Snake's mines and grenades or Diddy's banana peels, for example, so she is free to make the same mistaken judgements as her opponent without penalty.
I think that a different fireball graphic could help greatly, even without making any other alterations to the move at all. As it is right now, the constantly re-exploding fireball is a bit aesthetically bizarre, gives no visual indication of detonation, makes it difficult to judge the hitbox size (which varies, might I add) and even contrasts poorly with the floors and backgrounds of some stages (Smashville at sunset hours in particular can make it harder to keep track of low-lying mini-blasts). The graphic could instead be a steady flame that flashes white instead of each small blast, and a white glow effect that accompanies the last few moments before exploding, similar in appearance to Roy's max Flare Blade charge, as an example. The explosion would still be a major threat to your opponent's space, and even make comboing into the large explosion a more intuitive process for Zelda.
Removing the variable hitbox size could also be a solution. There's the already-stated issue with hurtbox size, and seeing as good zoning with Din's seems to be based around walls, shapes, and structures the size increase doesn't help zoning all that much and leads to more random KOs off of unfamiliarity with precisely how much the hitbox grows with distance. Maybe it's just me, but I feel like that isn't the kind of punish that Zelda should be getting, and I'd rather have the hitbox stay at an average, constant size.
I agree that up-B should be a little less quick to cause tumbling. Din's is already an interesting way to play mindgames with recovery and possibly get a knockdown, so it seems a bit redundant that the up-B hitbox should do the same so easily.
Nayru's Love is really laggy on paper, but I'm guessing a lot of non-Zelda mains wouldn't describe it as such because of the weird hitboxes. I can't seem to find a way to view the hitbox and graphical effect simultaneously aside from the Melee animation, which I presume won't completely apply, but it seems that the first hitbox hits at long range (where the shard whirlwind appears) before that part of the graphic actually shows, and the shards linger after the last hitbox as well, sort of "covering" some of the endlag visually. I'm starting to think that may be why Zelda mains think it isn't an issue, because from their point of view it's extremely easy to tell exactly when the ample endlag is preventing another action. It's just that to everyone else, they're getting sucked in by invisible hitboxes when they try to bait an action other than Nayru's, and never getting a strong punish by hanging back and baiting Nayru's specifically, because a hitbox that isn't really there keeps them away.
Nayru's main problem isn't even the move itself so much as how much it exacerbates Zelda's polarizing traits. Zelda is excellent at escaping from combos without it anyways, and the nice little neutral reset from Nayru's just turns out to be a way for Zelda to repeatedly give her opponent a chance to run into a lightning kick or Din's fire.
Speaking of lightning kicks, I suppose the KB wouldn't be such an issue if Zelda didn't have so many reliable ways of racking up percent, especially on fastfallers. When you have a 15% dthrow, 17/18% sweetspot lightning kicks (frame 5/8 hitboxes, both with good range and radius) that can chain together given low damage and/or DI mistakes (entirely possible when you're trying to DI inwards to prevent an edgeguard), chainable usmash and uthrow, and 11-20% fireball explosions, getting to that 60-70ish kill percent range happens a bit too quickly. In particular, I think medium-sweetspot bair/fair and possibly Din's fire could stand to deal slightly less damage, but keep their effective knockback.
I do think that bair and fair are slightly too safe for their strength, so in a design sense I wouldn't mind seeing a compromise, or the critical and sweetspot hitboxes combined into something more balanced. As it is now, I also find it problematic that proper DI can be switched around occasionally between the sweetspot and critical hitbox with no warning.
To sum it all up, I'd say that Zelda has a lot of non-interactive deception and indirect punishes hardwired into her moves. Being hit by Din's out of nowhere is not interactive, having DI switched around by critical fair when it was an unintentional action is not interactive, and Nayru's inherently lessens the variety of the matchup's combo and approach game, while allowing Zelda to get away with taking far less punishment for moving and acting predictably. The worst part is, Zelda doesn't have as much interactivity with these "mind games," either, so once they're figured out (i.e. whoever you're playing just learned the matchup) they become one-dimensional and far less useful.
To be clear, I think that Zelda has plenty of well-designed qualities, and there's no arguing that she isn't representing a unique playstyle. I certainly don't think she is OP and deserves heavy nerfs, either.
As far as Din's fire goes, there are several ways in which it tends to make the spacing game feel imprecise and unintuitive, which contradicts the fundamentals that make spacing function so smoothly and dynamically for other characters.
The current graphic is a bit visually unintuitive to work around. The multi-explosion effect isn't readable to either player unless they specifically divert attention to stop and count to 3 seconds (Or 158 frames? I've found that value on an old frame data thread and I don't know if I can count on it, or to it for that matter). So, watching for 6 bursts whenever a Din's trap is set, which is a counter-technique that only contributes to the Zelda matchup. It's fine that Zelda can make the opponent play her game zoning-wise, but eating a 15% explosion (give or take) with the potential for uair/fair followups or outright KOs for not keeping a diligent count while daring to approach, retreat, dashdance, etc. near the edge of a mined area can be a little ridiculous. Furthermore, Zelda takes no risk of having her traps used against her, unlike Snake's mines and grenades or Diddy's banana peels, for example, so she is free to make the same mistaken judgements as her opponent without penalty.
I think that a different fireball graphic could help greatly, even without making any other alterations to the move at all. As it is right now, the constantly re-exploding fireball is a bit aesthetically bizarre, gives no visual indication of detonation, makes it difficult to judge the hitbox size (which varies, might I add) and even contrasts poorly with the floors and backgrounds of some stages (Smashville at sunset hours in particular can make it harder to keep track of low-lying mini-blasts). The graphic could instead be a steady flame that flashes white instead of each small blast, and a white glow effect that accompanies the last few moments before exploding, similar in appearance to Roy's max Flare Blade charge, as an example. The explosion would still be a major threat to your opponent's space, and even make comboing into the large explosion a more intuitive process for Zelda.
Removing the variable hitbox size could also be a solution. There's the already-stated issue with hurtbox size, and seeing as good zoning with Din's seems to be based around walls, shapes, and structures the size increase doesn't help zoning all that much and leads to more random KOs off of unfamiliarity with precisely how much the hitbox grows with distance. Maybe it's just me, but I feel like that isn't the kind of punish that Zelda should be getting, and I'd rather have the hitbox stay at an average, constant size.
I agree that up-B should be a little less quick to cause tumbling. Din's is already an interesting way to play mindgames with recovery and possibly get a knockdown, so it seems a bit redundant that the up-B hitbox should do the same so easily.
Nayru's Love is really laggy on paper, but I'm guessing a lot of non-Zelda mains wouldn't describe it as such because of the weird hitboxes. I can't seem to find a way to view the hitbox and graphical effect simultaneously aside from the Melee animation, which I presume won't completely apply, but it seems that the first hitbox hits at long range (where the shard whirlwind appears) before that part of the graphic actually shows, and the shards linger after the last hitbox as well, sort of "covering" some of the endlag visually. I'm starting to think that may be why Zelda mains think it isn't an issue, because from their point of view it's extremely easy to tell exactly when the ample endlag is preventing another action. It's just that to everyone else, they're getting sucked in by invisible hitboxes when they try to bait an action other than Nayru's, and never getting a strong punish by hanging back and baiting Nayru's specifically, because a hitbox that isn't really there keeps them away.
Nayru's main problem isn't even the move itself so much as how much it exacerbates Zelda's polarizing traits. Zelda is excellent at escaping from combos without it anyways, and the nice little neutral reset from Nayru's just turns out to be a way for Zelda to repeatedly give her opponent a chance to run into a lightning kick or Din's fire.
Speaking of lightning kicks, I suppose the KB wouldn't be such an issue if Zelda didn't have so many reliable ways of racking up percent, especially on fastfallers. When you have a 15% dthrow, 17/18% sweetspot lightning kicks (frame 5/8 hitboxes, both with good range and radius) that can chain together given low damage and/or DI mistakes (entirely possible when you're trying to DI inwards to prevent an edgeguard), chainable usmash and uthrow, and 11-20% fireball explosions, getting to that 60-70ish kill percent range happens a bit too quickly. In particular, I think medium-sweetspot bair/fair and possibly Din's fire could stand to deal slightly less damage, but keep their effective knockback.
I do think that bair and fair are slightly too safe for their strength, so in a design sense I wouldn't mind seeing a compromise, or the critical and sweetspot hitboxes combined into something more balanced. As it is now, I also find it problematic that proper DI can be switched around occasionally between the sweetspot and critical hitbox with no warning.
To sum it all up, I'd say that Zelda has a lot of non-interactive deception and indirect punishes hardwired into her moves. Being hit by Din's out of nowhere is not interactive, having DI switched around by critical fair when it was an unintentional action is not interactive, and Nayru's inherently lessens the variety of the matchup's combo and approach game, while allowing Zelda to get away with taking far less punishment for moving and acting predictably. The worst part is, Zelda doesn't have as much interactivity with these "mind games," either, so once they're figured out (i.e. whoever you're playing just learned the matchup) they become one-dimensional and far less useful.
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ELI-mination
Smash Champion
What are all these essay posts
Just learn the matchup, you're all *******
Just learn the matchup, you're all *******
WhiteLightnin
Smash Journeyman
"Teleburn" I like that. I think it is a great idea to coin a common term that people can use to quickly relay exactly what they are talking about in terms of Farore's Wind. Any objection to me adding it into the original post?
jtm94
Smash Lord
I think it would be a really cool idea if Zelda could place Din's Fires that lasted LONGER, have a fixed size so as not to throw people off with deceptive explosions or hitboxes, but she could only use 2 of them perhaps. I would also really be excited if she could place them faster, or get out of the move faster, but it didn't act as a means of transportation so she can't effectively wall people out by placing retreating dins or straying to the ledge to place some dins. This would allow her to have effective pressure in the neutral game that is far safer than the speed of them now, and she isn't rewarded for running away by being able to place 3 on stage to effectively create a wall.
I think it is a bit unfair that Zelda can effectively shut off ALL routes back to the stage from the ledge, covering the roll, get-up attack, and jump. Forcing people to either stall more on the ledge and possibly eat an explosion, or try to rush throw with an attack. Limiting to 2 dins makes it so an opponent could indeed be zoned into a certain area, but it won't allow the cutting off of their options entirely.
I say I want it to be faster because I would like for the move to be able to be used offensively, but not to the point where it is free safe offense. The dins could travel slower, but initiate/end much faster. This way it could be more of typical projectile and provide more use near her, than it does accross the stage. Another idea could be to have it start fast, but slow the longer it is controlled, making it so Zelda can't reliably camp the edge from accross the stage.
Along with these I agree Nayru's Love could have a shortened animation where it actually shows the hitboxes while they exist, then disappears.
As for kicks.. I really do like the simple idea of Umbreon's to normalize the kick so it is more consistent, but KOs a little slower than the critical heel currently, and then has a weak hitbox, but it KOs faster than the crap hitboxes do now. I really don't want to see the kicks become slower though, like at all. I would actually rather they become weaker and just as fast than significantly slower and strong. I don't think there should be issue with Umbreon's suggested kickboxes, and I don't find it fair that Zelda's movement is as bad as it is, but the kicks would be made even harder to land.
I think it is a bit unfair that Zelda can effectively shut off ALL routes back to the stage from the ledge, covering the roll, get-up attack, and jump. Forcing people to either stall more on the ledge and possibly eat an explosion, or try to rush throw with an attack. Limiting to 2 dins makes it so an opponent could indeed be zoned into a certain area, but it won't allow the cutting off of their options entirely.
I say I want it to be faster because I would like for the move to be able to be used offensively, but not to the point where it is free safe offense. The dins could travel slower, but initiate/end much faster. This way it could be more of typical projectile and provide more use near her, than it does accross the stage. Another idea could be to have it start fast, but slow the longer it is controlled, making it so Zelda can't reliably camp the edge from accross the stage.
Along with these I agree Nayru's Love could have a shortened animation where it actually shows the hitboxes while they exist, then disappears.
As for kicks.. I really do like the simple idea of Umbreon's to normalize the kick so it is more consistent, but KOs a little slower than the critical heel currently, and then has a weak hitbox, but it KOs faster than the crap hitboxes do now. I really don't want to see the kicks become slower though, like at all. I would actually rather they become weaker and just as fast than significantly slower and strong. I don't think there should be issue with Umbreon's suggested kickboxes, and I don't find it fair that Zelda's movement is as bad as it is, but the kicks would be made even harder to land.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Jesus Christ and people say I'm articulate.
Zelda's kick speed is fine and doesn't need changed at all.
Y know what I'd love to see done to Zelda? (As a not really a nerf or buff)
I wanna see Farore's wind's visuals made to look like sm4sh's
It wouldn't hurt anything for the PMBR to try doing this, because it looks SO dang pretty in this pic. <3 Also note, they remembered to use the light element. <3 But in yellow, interesting...
I also have some changes I'll be purposing, that I think are decent and couple/few even sprout from the talk here, but not now, I'm busy. ' < '
I wanna see Farore's wind's visuals made to look like sm4sh's
It wouldn't hurt anything for the PMBR to try doing this, because it looks SO dang pretty in this pic. <3 Also note, they remembered to use the light element. <3 But in yellow, interesting...
I also have some changes I'll be purposing, that I think are decent and couple/few even sprout from the talk here, but not now, I'm busy. ' < '
The_NZA
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,979
Typical New York attitude. "What is this reading? What is this writing?"
Come to Boston so I can teach you how to analytically break it down, Eli.
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
Come to NY so I can teach you to deal with life rather than trying to rationalize ways to avoid it
drsusredfish
Smash Ace
I like the idea of a different graphics for the dins countdown so to take all the ambiguity away. Also I remember the graphics on dins used to show exactly where the explosion would reach. i wonder why that was changed. Maybe it looked obnoxious IDK? Or the ambiguity gives you more incentive to get rid of the din? Yeah ima go with the latter.
I agree Nayru's graphic is a little misleading even for me at times and i main her but i don't want the graphic to be changed cause it would look ugly if it matched its hit box exactly. the graphic would go by really fast and be smaller and not even cover her whole body (I know thats a dumb reason but zelda likes aesthetics. look at all the sparkles). Maybe a sound effect should be used so the graphic doesn't need to change. The nayru graphic size and hit box size to me is a case of "go do research and see what's happening". Once you know what it is it shouldn't be as big a problem any more. You know she's gone panic button. so prepare for her panic attack.
I agree that dins not being able to be reflected back at zelda in any way is strong but, if i remember correctly, they did that because in demo 1.0 you could get a 1 din to do like 60% if it gets reflected enough or something, don't quote me on that. the way it is now is the lesser of 2 evils.
Good / Fun idea for Dins
You know what would be fun. Y'all remember the rogue PK flash that ness was working with
. Hit zelda while she is casting the spell the din becomes harmful to everyone. throwing out more dins can still reset the rogue dins timer but trying to get rid of the rogue din buy putting out 3 dins won't work. when a rogue din is out zelda can only place 2 dins until the rouge one explodes. placing a 3rd din when a rogue din is out will make the second din disappear and be replaced with the new din. (zelda players should get what I'm saying.) if 2 rogue dins are out she can only place one. if 3 rogue dins are out she can't put out a din I'm completely serious though . Either player can still attack the din to get rid of it now.
This would at least make her traps closer to the level of snakes traps. The rogue din should have different graphics so she wont confuse them with friendly dins. I'm debating whether or not the din should continue to travel when she gets hit though or if it should stop where its at when she is hit. this idea rewards the opponent for interrupting a spell and gives both players a possible combo extender or even finisher. On the other hand i like being able to continue the control of my din after i've been hit. The former would be a more interesting match though. So i can sacrifice that minor control for a this middle ground.
Nothing about the current zelda needs to change besides the din idea above and this is just to give some reward to the opponent for attacking her bad spell preparation.
I agree Nayru's graphic is a little misleading even for me at times and i main her but i don't want the graphic to be changed cause it would look ugly if it matched its hit box exactly. the graphic would go by really fast and be smaller and not even cover her whole body (I know thats a dumb reason but zelda likes aesthetics. look at all the sparkles). Maybe a sound effect should be used so the graphic doesn't need to change. The nayru graphic size and hit box size to me is a case of "go do research and see what's happening". Once you know what it is it shouldn't be as big a problem any more. You know she's gone panic button. so prepare for her panic attack.
I agree that dins not being able to be reflected back at zelda in any way is strong but, if i remember correctly, they did that because in demo 1.0 you could get a 1 din to do like 60% if it gets reflected enough or something, don't quote me on that. the way it is now is the lesser of 2 evils.
Good / Fun idea for Dins
You know what would be fun. Y'all remember the rogue PK flash that ness was working with
. Hit zelda while she is casting the spell the din becomes harmful to everyone. throwing out more dins can still reset the rogue dins timer but trying to get rid of the rogue din buy putting out 3 dins won't work. when a rogue din is out zelda can only place 2 dins until the rouge one explodes. placing a 3rd din when a rogue din is out will make the second din disappear and be replaced with the new din. (zelda players should get what I'm saying.) if 2 rogue dins are out she can only place one. if 3 rogue dins are out she can't put out a din I'm completely serious though . Either player can still attack the din to get rid of it now.This would at least make her traps closer to the level of snakes traps. The rogue din should have different graphics so she wont confuse them with friendly dins. I'm debating whether or not the din should continue to travel when she gets hit though or if it should stop where its at when she is hit. this idea rewards the opponent for interrupting a spell and gives both players a possible combo extender or even finisher. On the other hand i like being able to continue the control of my din after i've been hit. The former would be a more interesting match though. So i can sacrifice that minor control for a this middle ground.
Nothing about the current zelda needs to change besides the din idea above and this is just to give some reward to the opponent for attacking her bad spell preparation.
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The_NZA
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,979
ohgod hefoundmeout.
Stop being such a pansy and edge guard with Ness off the stage.
________________O__
Where "__" = the stage. O = a 100% probable location from where Eli's Ness will be edgeguarding.
And don't retort with "it was enough to beat you". You and I both know you are better than me. I don't give a **** about that.
Come at me Piglet.
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
For real though, there are way too many people who play this game that want changes at the drop of a hat
This game will never be finished, and a huge wave of people will keep quitting every time because they're sick and tired of things changing all the time
I might as well just main Fox so I know I'm safe
This game will never be finished, and a huge wave of people will keep quitting every time because they're sick and tired of things changing all the time
I might as well just main Fox so I know I'm safe
The_NZA
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,979
Hukster
Smash Cadet
Zelda is a good character, yeah. But is she really good to the point that she's nerf worthy? I honestly don't agree. Maybe nerf her sweetspots on the forward and back air, but that's about it. And is she even top tier? If not, I don't see the point of nerfing her.
Yes there's always that chance, but the question is, if she's changed enough to be "better", how many zeldas are alienated in the process? I mean, they've already alienated Zhime with whatever is going on. (Or so it seems with him resigning for "creative differences") that to me says A LOT.
WhiteLightnin
Smash Journeyman
That could be a possibility but the problem is there hasn't even been enough time yet to determine where she is currently at. Zhime's performances have proven she's already capable of performing well. If she has that capability I don't think it makes sense to change her at this point in time. Especially since we already have enough elements that keep being changed. It would make sense to give it more time.
TimeSmash
Smash Champion
Not at all. Feel free!
As far as Din's goes I can't say I WANT there to be a separate animation for the "about to explode" of it but it would make it much more fair. You can't expect people to look at the clock that much or keep a 3 second timer in their head EVERY time a new Din's is placed.
Well, I was thinking that Din's ticking animation could get brighter/lighter the closer it gets to exploding, and then reset to normal/start whenever the timer is reset. I think this could help both Zelda and her opponent at least a little.
Also, I think the ticking animation should be reanimated to look like the fireball being moved/controlled in Brawl. It has that really cute little candle-like flame in the center and still has a pulse around it in case "the pulsing timer" was kept. Or even if it was with my "brightening din's" idea
Also, I think the ticking animation should be reanimated to look like the fireball being moved/controlled in Brawl. It has that really cute little candle-like flame in the center and still has a pulse around it in case "the pulsing timer" was kept. Or even if it was with my "brightening din's" idea
TimeSmash
Smash Champion
I agree with you definitely, a faster animation towards the end would be nice. As a Zelda Main it is hard for me to know when they're going to go off especially when I reset the timer
The_NZA
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,979
I think if nothing else, having better aesthetic indicators would be a way to make playing Zelda's game marginally less frustrating. Havnig the fireballs better indicate the range of the explosion they'll cause and how close they are to blowing up, and making nayru's love look more like its hitbox.
TimeSmash
Smash Champion
Something like an opaque white ring around each fireball to indicate explosion radius?
Well, a slightly easier to see shock wave visual could be added to dins for a range indicator.
Also, I was thinking a good "last hitframe" indicator for Nayrus would be a little spark (like the ones used for charging a smash.) Around near/in front of her head. Just one quick spark. So if you have good reaction, you can use this as a signal to capitalize. But you still have to be quick and careful to get her, of course.
jtm94
Smash Lord
I wish the dins lasted longer, I don't think they offer any control of the board because you are required to spam them until you find an opening to go in, in that fraction of a second that you went in you get hit and then the dins all explode and go to waste. IT isn't like Snake who can have solid traps set and use them to circumvent areas of the stage for extended periods of time.
I don't think she needs the din's explosion to KO anyone at all. She already has some amazing KO moves, and it should set up into KO moves, not KO on its own. It is extremely out of the way to go for such things and no character has to work with such roundabout ways to net KOs. That's like making it so Snake's mine explodes after 5 seconds. If he wanted to use it effectively he has to keep placing the mine to refresh the timer and then HOPE to throw someone into it.
I think the best ways to use dins are to place them close and throw directly into the close dins THEN land the kick, instead of chucking into a huge fiery explosion. As I said she already has quite a few powerful KO moves.
The amount of time that it takes for them to explode and how they look, or how big the explosion may appear is EXTREMELY unimportant. Do you really think that changing this one single aesthetic will make people think Zelda is fair? It changes nothing with how she is played, it is merely a MU learning tool which CAN be implemented after her core mechanics are balanced to be more conventional instead of extremely indirect.
I don't think she needs the din's explosion to KO anyone at all. She already has some amazing KO moves, and it should set up into KO moves, not KO on its own. It is extremely out of the way to go for such things and no character has to work with such roundabout ways to net KOs. That's like making it so Snake's mine explodes after 5 seconds. If he wanted to use it effectively he has to keep placing the mine to refresh the timer and then HOPE to throw someone into it.
I think the best ways to use dins are to place them close and throw directly into the close dins THEN land the kick, instead of chucking into a huge fiery explosion. As I said she already has quite a few powerful KO moves.
The amount of time that it takes for them to explode and how they look, or how big the explosion may appear is EXTREMELY unimportant. Do you really think that changing this one single aesthetic will make people think Zelda is fair? It changes nothing with how she is played, it is merely a MU learning tool which CAN be implemented after her core mechanics are balanced to be more conventional instead of extremely indirect.
WINK ;)
Thankful for today
When I first started playing PM I thought Zelda was top tier. Not broken by any means by decently high up on the tier list. Then started playing more Zeldas and realized they really had to space and work for the attacks and really could only punish on my mistakes.
drsusredfish
Smash Ace
Spam a projectile to find an opening.... i wonder where i've seen that before oh every one who has a viable projectile.
making the dins last longer would mean people would have to stall at the ledges even longer. Dins lasting longer also means they have less reason to approach and then you want the explosion to not KO.
so you want dins to not really be threatening.
. the explosion is the reason you want to get rid of them. the threat of being KO'd from the huge din is the reason why you try to keep her from getting time to put more out. you have plenty of time to do stuff while dins are out zelda doesn't "hope" to throw or hit someone into the din she plans it. It happens too often for it to be a "hope". You just said you wish the dins lasted longer so yes the time for them to explode is important. Aestetics are very important. Misleading graphics were part of the reason people had a problem with some of her stuff. There isn't a problem with how she is played right now there is a problem with how people play against her.
jtm94
Smash Lord
Less dins at ledge actually leaves an opening for someone to get on. If they ledge stall and you replace the dins at the edge then them stalling clearly isn't benefitting them now is it?
Dins lasting longer means that since they are stable longer you can "create" safer openings or paths to the opponent, instead of needing to refresh dins every 5 to 6 ticks.
Planning to hit someone into a move that you place is incredibly indirect and would come off as flashy or impractical for other characters. It will only happen if the opponent is completely blind to it or "allow" Zelda to get that set up by doing... nothing. That doesn't make it good, that means it capitalizes on time the opponent allows you.
I didn't say aesthetics weren't important at all, but other more core things need to be discussed because our character is going to be changed and we're talking about how moves "look" instead of more pressing issues such as how she can be made balanced or to be less hated by the community with her maintaining viability.
These aren't "shots," or "insults," I just really want to prioritize the thread so when Zelda is re-released and is terrible we can at least say we gave many valid solutions to her character flaws.
Dins lasting longer means that since they are stable longer you can "create" safer openings or paths to the opponent, instead of needing to refresh dins every 5 to 6 ticks.
Planning to hit someone into a move that you place is incredibly indirect and would come off as flashy or impractical for other characters. It will only happen if the opponent is completely blind to it or "allow" Zelda to get that set up by doing... nothing. That doesn't make it good, that means it capitalizes on time the opponent allows you.
I didn't say aesthetics weren't important at all, but other more core things need to be discussed because our character is going to be changed and we're talking about how moves "look" instead of more pressing issues such as how she can be made balanced or to be less hated by the community with her maintaining viability.
These aren't "shots," or "insults," I just really want to prioritize the thread so when Zelda is re-released and is terrible we can at least say we gave many valid solutions to her character flaws.
Zerudahime
Smash Apprentice
setting up dins fire with the current timer is somehing that is key to her game. you have to be able to react quick enough and pressure your opponent fast enough to get them into an explosion. one of the very instances when u actually see a zelda approach. by making them longer it only makes her not have to approach for a longer amount of time if she wants rewarded from a trap. This is where Zelda goes offensive with FW and grabs...she can reset her dins if she doesnt like her positioning but by that time she will be open to hard punishment.
it switches from passive to agressive.
zelda is passive-aggressive.
it switches from passive to agressive.
zelda is passive-aggressive.
Rose alumna
Smash Journeyman
Nooooooooooo
jtm94
Smash Lord
I guess I just have problems with my opponent seeing me place dins and them not walk into them or allowing me to get to them in order to set up an effective trap. IT does happen some of the time when I set obscure ones, but plain as day ones for bthrow are overly obvious.
Well since dins can't be agreed upon, what about movement? OR moves that can be tweaked for better approaches in neutral?
Well since dins can't be agreed upon, what about movement? OR moves that can be tweaked for better approaches in neutral?
otheusrex
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2013
- Messages
- 342
I agree that Din's Fire could be more useful to her than they are now. I'd rather the killing power of the explosions be gutted entirely and in return get a more reliable combo tool. I'd even take 1, or hell, even 2 less Din's fire mines if the single mine was faster/safer to come out and stayed on the battlefield longer.
Suggestion:
--->Zelda only has 1 Din's fire, but make it a much better combo tool. Start with how it works now, but the mine itself is bigger but more or less the same size no matter how far you place it. The explosion is only 1.5 times the size of the mine and doesn't KO, but does enough knock back to combo in the right set up. The mine stays out indefinitely but can still be clanked; The mine explodes when zelda starts placing another din's. Finally, the start up animation for her side b is made 2x faster and the endlag is a little bit faster.
Explanation: Din's is faster/safer and stays out longer so it will be there more often to help Zelda with approaches, combos and zoning. The less powerful explosions and new detonation mechanic sacrifice it's use as a direct KO to give it another combo/set up function. Ex.: __Z_____A_o____ <--- this is a diagram of zelda on final destination, against opponent A and a din's mine 'o' placed just behind the opponent. Zelda can start to place another din's mine, which makes the first mine explode, sending opponent A into the mine she just placed---> __Z____o_A__<X>____ If you placed the mine in the perfect location, then opponent A after flying away from the first mine, will fly into and bounce off of the second one, sending opponent A right towards you for a combo. The quicker detonation mechanic gives dins the ability to function more like a typical projectile, giving her the option to camp war with someone who insists on it. I know this seems counter intuitive for a less cheezy Zelda, but with any good projectile, camping will inevitably be a viable strategy. The benefit to being able to camp is that it forces the opponent to approach you, which the current design is supposed to do, but falls short. With the new detonation mechanic, you can go even with projectile damage in a camping war, or actually bring the opponent to you with excellent aim and timing.
Some cons to this suggestion that I'm worried about is that Zelda might be able to always detonate the dins fire when an opponent tries to clank the mine. I stand by my opinion that din's needs to be faster and safer to get out, but if pressing side b makes an outstanding din explode at the beginning of the animation, then it might allow for unstoppable chains of explosions. My solution to this would be to make the detonation of the preexisting mine happen a little or just before the next din is set, that way, if an opponent is close then they have time to clank the dins when they see zelda is starting to place another one. They could even make the preexisting dins change color and start ticking faster when she begins placing another one, just to make it visually clear that the first dins is on the verge of exploding. Getting the right amount of time to balance the opponent being able to clank the old dins before it explodes would probably be a real fine line though, because we wouldn't want to make the detonation mechanic useless either. So currently, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, if one placed a din's mine the minimum distance and thus the fastest from start to finish, then it would take 83 frames to place a din's fire before you can interrupt, and I believe the mine would come out on frame 52. I'd suggest making the whole side b animations be interruptable as soon as frame 30, which is around how long it takes for the farore's wind to cause intangibility. Looking at farore's wind start up, 30 frames is only safe if the opponent is beyond medium range so that would still make zelda have to have some room to send out a dins safely. The din's mine could be set as soon as frame 20 (but usually longer because they'll want to place it just so), and the detonation mechanic on frame 19. These numbers are just a guess.
Suggestion:
--->Zelda only has 1 Din's fire, but make it a much better combo tool. Start with how it works now, but the mine itself is bigger but more or less the same size no matter how far you place it. The explosion is only 1.5 times the size of the mine and doesn't KO, but does enough knock back to combo in the right set up. The mine stays out indefinitely but can still be clanked; The mine explodes when zelda starts placing another din's. Finally, the start up animation for her side b is made 2x faster and the endlag is a little bit faster.
Explanation: Din's is faster/safer and stays out longer so it will be there more often to help Zelda with approaches, combos and zoning. The less powerful explosions and new detonation mechanic sacrifice it's use as a direct KO to give it another combo/set up function. Ex.: __Z_____A_o____ <--- this is a diagram of zelda on final destination, against opponent A and a din's mine 'o' placed just behind the opponent. Zelda can start to place another din's mine, which makes the first mine explode, sending opponent A into the mine she just placed---> __Z____o_A__<X>____ If you placed the mine in the perfect location, then opponent A after flying away from the first mine, will fly into and bounce off of the second one, sending opponent A right towards you for a combo. The quicker detonation mechanic gives dins the ability to function more like a typical projectile, giving her the option to camp war with someone who insists on it. I know this seems counter intuitive for a less cheezy Zelda, but with any good projectile, camping will inevitably be a viable strategy. The benefit to being able to camp is that it forces the opponent to approach you, which the current design is supposed to do, but falls short. With the new detonation mechanic, you can go even with projectile damage in a camping war, or actually bring the opponent to you with excellent aim and timing.
Some cons to this suggestion that I'm worried about is that Zelda might be able to always detonate the dins fire when an opponent tries to clank the mine. I stand by my opinion that din's needs to be faster and safer to get out, but if pressing side b makes an outstanding din explode at the beginning of the animation, then it might allow for unstoppable chains of explosions. My solution to this would be to make the detonation of the preexisting mine happen a little or just before the next din is set, that way, if an opponent is close then they have time to clank the dins when they see zelda is starting to place another one. They could even make the preexisting dins change color and start ticking faster when she begins placing another one, just to make it visually clear that the first dins is on the verge of exploding. Getting the right amount of time to balance the opponent being able to clank the old dins before it explodes would probably be a real fine line though, because we wouldn't want to make the detonation mechanic useless either. So currently, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, if one placed a din's mine the minimum distance and thus the fastest from start to finish, then it would take 83 frames to place a din's fire before you can interrupt, and I believe the mine would come out on frame 52. I'd suggest making the whole side b animations be interruptable as soon as frame 30, which is around how long it takes for the farore's wind to cause intangibility. Looking at farore's wind start up, 30 frames is only safe if the opponent is beyond medium range so that would still make zelda have to have some room to send out a dins safely. The din's mine could be set as soon as frame 20 (but usually longer because they'll want to place it just so), and the detonation mechanic on frame 19. These numbers are just a guess.
jtm94
Smash Lord
I really like this guy's ideas^^^^^^^^
I disagree a bit about the entire aesthetic change though because I really feel that if there is less din's and they can't get bigger the explosion radius will be figured out after the first few and be committed to memory, and they would see Zelda throwing out another dins and be able to react if they chose to be close to one.
I would really like for it to be more of an extension of herself, but not something making the entire match walling off areas with Din's or forcing them through a SINGLE hole. They would have more mobility of the stage, but we would have more mobility of the dins. Maybe the single one could travel at the same speed as currently, but it being able to be triggered remotely with some control would force the opponent to want to actually rush into Zelda. This is where I think Nayru's Love could take a few nerfs so that it doesn't become a came of her forcing them to approach, and then her tossing them away after they do, just to force them in again. Then she would be dictating the match entirely. Nayru's could retain properties to Love Jump because I find that fine, but maybe she could receive super armor instead of intangibility, and the distance it reaches to the side/outward could be changed?
I disagree a bit about the entire aesthetic change though because I really feel that if there is less din's and they can't get bigger the explosion radius will be figured out after the first few and be committed to memory, and they would see Zelda throwing out another dins and be able to react if they chose to be close to one.
I would really like for it to be more of an extension of herself, but not something making the entire match walling off areas with Din's or forcing them through a SINGLE hole. They would have more mobility of the stage, but we would have more mobility of the dins. Maybe the single one could travel at the same speed as currently, but it being able to be triggered remotely with some control would force the opponent to want to actually rush into Zelda. This is where I think Nayru's Love could take a few nerfs so that it doesn't become a came of her forcing them to approach, and then her tossing them away after they do, just to force them in again. Then she would be dictating the match entirely. Nayru's could retain properties to Love Jump because I find that fine, but maybe she could receive super armor instead of intangibility, and the distance it reaches to the side/outward could be changed?
D
Deleted member
Guest
i played a new test version of zelda.
it was amazing. felt much more like zelda and much less like DBZ
it was amazing. felt much more like zelda and much less like DBZ