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Zelda Balance and MU Learning

Daftatt

"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
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Daftatt
While not a HUGE deal, it should be pointed out that the Critical lightning kick hitbox is only around 2/3 the size of rest.
I keep hearing people defend zelda's kick with it's hitbox size.
comparing a move to rest as in to say "look, rest is hard and risky to land, our move has a similar hitbox, therefore it shouldn't be regarded as overpowered". This is a little misleading since rest puts you into several seconds of vulnerability whether you miss it or not, and zelda can just throw out fair/bair with nowhere near the risk of rest. I'm not saying the move is broken or anything, I'm just saying don't compare it to rest, because rest's tiny hitbox is only a large hindrance because it multiplies the existing risk of missing and being a sitting duck, where as the small hitbox on zelda's kick isn't that big of a deal.

as far as my opinion on if it should be nerfed or not, I say no, we don't see zelda dominating the tournament scene destroying everyone with her kick, it's as tricky to land as many sweetspotted aerials, just because I am surprised when I am hit by it and die doesn't mean it's broken it just means I need to alter my play to be aware and distanced in situations where she can land it. Nerfing this move but not say, fox's up-smash, would be extremely hypocritical.
 
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DarkStarStorm

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I keep hearing people defend zelda's kick with it's hitbox size.
comparing a move to rest as in to say "look, rest is hard and risky to land, our move has a similar hitbox, therefore it shouldn't be regarded as overpowered". This is a little misleading since rest puts you into several seconds of vulnerability whether you miss it or not, and zelda can just throw out fair/bair with nowhere near the risk of rest. I'm not saying the move is broken or anything, I'm just saying don't compare it to rest, because rest's tiny hitbox is only a large hindrance because it multiplies the existing risk of missing and being a sitting duck, where as the small hitbox on zelda's kick isn't that big of a deal.
Like I said, it's easier to hit with because there is less risk, but it's harder to hit with because the sweetspot is smaller.
 

ShadowGanon

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Like I said, it's easier to hit with because there is less risk, but it's harder to hit with because the sweetspot is smaller.
It's smaller and on a foot. A FOOT!!!! That's like saying that hitting with Marths tipper is hard.

I feel like I'm going to regret saying this.
 

WhiteLightnin

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Nov 25, 2013
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Albuquerque, NM
I keep hearing people defend zelda's kick with it's hitbox size.
comparing a move to rest as in to say "look, rest is hard and risky to land, our move has a similar hitbox, therefore it shouldn't be regarded as overpowered". This is a little misleading since rest puts you into several seconds of vulnerability whether you miss it or not, and zelda can just throw out fair/bair with nowhere near the risk of rest. I'm not saying the move is broken or anything, I'm just saying don't compare it to rest, because rest's tiny hitbox is only a large hindrance because it multiplies the existing risk of missing and being a sitting duck, where as the small hitbox on zelda's kick isn't that big of a deal.
Thanks for that Daftatt. I agree that I don't think it makes sense to really compare it to rest. The fair/bair does have risk but nowhere near to the level of Jigg's rest. I think rest has more power on hit anyway so if we must make comparisons I think we just about covered everything. lol
 

BJN39

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I keep hearing people defend zelda's kick with it's hitbox size.
comparing a move to rest as in to say "look, rest is hard and risky to land, our move has a similar hitbox, therefore it shouldn't be regarded as overpowered". This is a little misleading since rest puts you into several seconds of vulnerability whether you miss it or not, and zelda can just throw out fair/bair with nowhere near the risk of rest. I'm not saying the move is broken or anything, I'm just saying don't compare it to rest, because rest's tiny hitbox is only a large hindrance because it multiplies the existing risk of missing and being a sitting duck, where as the small hitbox on zelda's kick isn't that big of a deal.
I actually wasn't trying really to defend it, I'm just picky about people getting the data wrong. Maybe this wouldn't apply in this case, but wrong data can mislead entire character communities badly.
 

The_NZA

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Apr 7, 2007
Messages
1,979
Well, I made a post earlier in this topic on some directions they could move towards. I'll repost it below.

For the record, I don't think she needs to be immensely nerfed or anything. I'd just curb the power of the "small" hitbox's on fair/bair, take away more of the frames of intangibility on aerial nayru's love, change the VISUALS of nayru's love to better reflect their hitboxes (I know she has no hitbox above her but you would never know that based on the aesthetics of the move), I would lower the amount of drift she has when dins firing from the air (giving you less of a reason to run away with it, or use it whilst recovering as a catch all protect myself), and I would increase the dins fire hurtboxes (especially when they travel the longer path and immensely grow) so that playing "her" game isn't so infuriating. You don't know how many times i've committed to defuse a din's fire with my small ness limbs and missed it, only to explode and die.

I'd also consider decreasing the kill power and explosion range of the large din fires that Zelda players make, but that might be too extreme along with the other changes. Either way, I do think she's a little too easy to be efficient with, much like Ivysaur 2.6.
The one addendum to the above changes I would make, is that if Zelda's fair/Bair are to retain a "critical" hitbox hit, it should be CLOSE to her not far from her. She should have to put herself at risk and actually "plan" in order to hit with it, like a roy or an Ike fsmash. But keeping people at a distance and getting a strong fair versus a super strong ultra fair does not showcase any sort of intelligent planning--It just proves you can space well. It doesn't fit into the typical game balance mechanics of having comparable risk and reward, especially when the payoff is so severe.

Also, people need to STOP defending lightening kicks on the basis that it has a small hitbox. If a hitbox is far from your body and you have air maneuverability, it doesn't really matter how big or small it is. All it means is that the "circle" hitbox is small, but if that circle is on a long ass stick (her leg), then it says very little in how hard it is to place in neutral.

Like someone else said: it's not like marth players have a hard time landing tippered fsmashes, just because the hitbox is "theoretically small".
 
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Daftatt

"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
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Daftatt
Well, I made a post on some directions they could move towards. I'll repost it below.



The one addendum to the above changes I would make, is that if Zelda's fair/Bair are to retain a "critical" hitbox hit, it should be CLOSE to her not far from her. She should have to put herself at risk and actually "plan" in order to hit with it, like a roy or an Ike fsmash. But keeping people at a distance and getting a strong fair versus a super strong ultra fair does not showcase any sort of intelligent planning--It just proves you can space well. It doesn't fit into the typical game balance mechanics of having comparable risk and reward, especially when the payoff is so severe.
now this seems more sensible, decreasing the range while keeping the kill power makes it less of a cheese KO move, and more of a powerful tool that you get hit with when you are spacing poorly, or are being straight up outplayed
 

Red(SP)

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I think a lot of the current design aspects of Zelda are being blown out of proportion at the moment. I mean, this is literally all I've been reading for the past hour, so I'm really intrigued by the discussion as it's posing some new options for me to consider. I can't speak very well from a Zelda position, considering I main Ness and put the most work into him on a daily. But from what I've been reading, a lot of this confusion has been from a lack of intuitive creativity. I feel like you could be potentially limiting your options, Nyle, or simply defeating yourself in the mind.

Knowledge is power in the very aspect of it, so taking all from what you can learn from this may help you approach this character in a better manner than before. That's not to exclude that there are some obviously mixed feelings about this character, but there are plenty of other characters in this game that suffer from hitbox/aesthetics disproportion. I'll take some time out of the day to say, playing Zelda as Ness can be awfully terrifying if you've never played against a formidable Zelda before.

I used to watch Zhime's Zelda videos back in the day to prep me for a wifi tournament in which I was told he would be competing in. I made it to Winners Finals (don't ask me how, this was probably the most cleanest I'd have ever played in my life and will probably never reach a prime this high in the near future, at least w/o practice) in which I had to play him. This was actually the first time ever that I played the guy. Even though I watched some of his videos, that didn't help me for **** in the first game. I got 3 stocked and it made Mofat feel like the MU was highly in Zelda's favor because he began questioning his audience, not even sure on how to commentate the match.


I figure you would probably call me insane if I were to tell you that I don't think this MU is so parallel. From a distance or even a glance, someone could declare that Ness would indeed lose this inevitably. However, I thought against this idea. I was a very stubborn person about my main 2 years ago and while I'm more realistic about how well I can perform when using Ness, I've never let someone tell me that I can't win a MU. I mean, this is potentially the most balanced Smash ever put together. The second game was the cleanest I played the MU. Keeping in mind, in 2.1, Ness didn't have access to the airdash/wavebounce magnet, so I personally thought the MU was more INTENSE. Aside from suffering from his typical 'recovery is flawed' johns, of course.

I learned on the first stock that as stated earlier, if you hold magnet out as you're approaching a din from any angle, it will absorb. You can't absorb the explosion, so if you wanted to attempt to absorb the dins, you had to be extremely accurate with your position of the magnet and the position of the dins. The thing that really opened my mind about her din meta, is that if you're not conscious about the amount of seconds the dins have on the timer, this could easily mess up your precision in trying to eliminate them from the field. That also comes down to one of two things: You have to decide it upon yourself whether or not you believe it's worth the time to remove them from play.

Mind me when saying that Ness' neutral game is considerably under average of even most characters. He can combat dins by canceling them with any of the moves mentioned in WhiteLightnin's post earlier, however his poor zoning game will be of a great hindrance to him. Simply, how to deal with dins is personally the most important part of this MU in my honest opinion. Everything else is either an add-on of some kind, or just legitimately eye candy (like the sparkles on her moves, lmao). It won't matter in the end what type of follow-ups you get, if you even get them in the first place; if you don't know what to do against dins, you're going to look about as free as the pacific ocean.

You can usually decipher when you want to remove them from play based on given standpoints and scenarios. I'll paint an image:
Since this match happened on Final Destination, this is the map I'll use in the example. Contrary to belief, counter-picking him to FD was probably a negative on my part. At the time I felt the most comfortable playing on that stage.

So let's say you somehow found yourself near the ledge. In Smash, it's typically never a good idea to find yourself near the ledge in any given scenario unless the opponent is offstage and you're rearing yourself to deal with that appropriately. Zhime's din play is unique as they come. He constantly forces you to think about how you're going to combat the mystery of his character while dealing with the insane defense play. In my mind deeply, I didn't really care all too much about how he executed his dins. My main goal was that I wasn't going to get baited into a grab and thrown into a din in the far 45 degree angle of the stage as it detonates. I say I did an overall neat job with that because it never happened. However, when looking back, there were some things I could have did better or rather open myself to using.

Zhime notably liked surrounding me with dins. He noticed that I liked trying to take time out of my day to absorb them. I was open to other options at the time, but ignored them in an attempt to get some cover and get my percentage lower to 0%. So theoretically speaking, I believe that you may either absorb them to achieve this or cancel the dins to catch some breathing air.

But then let's say Zelda is on the other side of the map. Both characters honestly don't have much of an incentive to approach one another, however Ness will have more of an urge to approach Zelda due to overall neutral game and Ness' poor zoning kit. Although, there's no real law that says Ness HAS to approach Zelda. I personally find reading Zelda's teleport game isn't all that much trouble since I dabbled a bit of Mewtwo in Melee enough to know most angles a player would approach a recovery or approach scenario. Baiting teleport can work out for the Ness player, but you have to understand the properties of teleport to really utilize the option of baiting her. She has overall two mixups at that point: Her teleport without the cancel via airdodge, and her teleport with the cancel via airdodge.

So we have three dins around a Ness at the ledge, right side of Final Destination. You look pretty isolated from the other side of the map as opposed to Zelda's position. Let's say that these dins were placed... like one in front of you just around your main torso. You're like at the distance to knock it out with a bat or a perfectly spaced f-tilt. Then you have another din behind you at a near-to 45 degree angle from the first din, right above your head more than slightly behind you. Then you have another din at a near to spaced 45 degree angle right in front of you, but above and slightly to left of the din at your torso. There are a number of things you could do, but they could all be invalidated by her teleport/din reset-counter game.

Luckily in 3.0 or well, onward from 2.1, Ness can use airdash/wavebounce magnet variations to further increase his accuracy in absorbing the dins. Canceling dins to force her to throw more seem to be pretty viable in the MU as well, as it would force her to get more on the field. You'll more than likely have to worry about her teleport cancels in this scenario, but approaching the dins like this have proven to work well.

In 2.1, only the main kit aside from magnet basics applied. I lost my first stock as a result of magnet absorb inaccuracy. That was personally my fault, so I learned from that rather quickly. I noticed on a lot of throws or solid hits that sent Zhime flying offstage, he would love jump to gain some height away from Ness in an attempt to make it back towards the stage. I realized that because Zelda is a floaty character, this resulted in potentially his BIGGEST weakness in the MU. While he can slow his descent with dins or maybe bait my rising aerials with a Naryu, I figured hitting him with a PK Flash was potentially the safest counter to this method. I'm actually quite notorious for juggling poor SDI and anti-airing those who attempt to approach from a specific angle. The latter is of a gut feeling, thankfully.

Prior to this match, I had absolutely no idea what the heck a love jump was, even though I dabbled a few years of competitive smash with Brawl before switching to PM. A lot of my punishes were based on instinct, because I wasn't exactly sure how the match would progress so I made sure to try a lot of things that I felt were appropriate. I managed to hit him with the move and later in the match started adjusting to his keen style of Zelda. I don't typically remember every vivid detail of this match, seeing how 2.1 came out like 2 years ago. However, I can tell you my PK Flash sniping on his love jump was rather consistent. Am I saying this should be the ultimate option to combat the scenario? No, I was a very inexperienced player and especially an inexperienced player now, but more experienced than when the matches came and finished.

I did get 3-0'd. It was morally depressing, but I took the loss as an overall lesson to the MU. I think that if with the factors listed here that Ness can do to combat dins and some of Zelda's recent enhancements/nerfs, there is more but a glimmer of hope of what you may possibly believe actually exists here.

In regards to toxic elements, I don't believe PK Fire is as toxic as certain other factors that characters may use in this game. This is not to say it's completely fine to belittle every single toxic element in this game and say 'hey it's completely fine to have a so and so move and such and such'. I think a main source of this belief is due to the guilt of using a move that's auto-pressure, but in compensation, is a depressing attempt to make up for a character's weaknesses. I enjoyed reading your thread of plausible tweaks to the character and would personally enjoy seeing most of them, if not all, in use. But as this game is progressing, it's becoming quite apparent that the move itself is being pieced apart by a forming counter-meta. I feel that some of this should honestly just settle for a while to see what may happen since this isn't just a bunch of new people coming into the spectrum. Most people who play PM have some sort of Smash background already, so honestly seeing how the certain factors develop would be a pretty safe field in terms of what changes could be made if there were any to propose in sake of bettering a character.

Well, I made a post earlier in this topic on some directions they could move towards. I'll repost it below.



The one addendum to the above changes I would make, is that if Zelda's fair/Bair are to retain a "critical" hitbox hit, it should be CLOSE to her not far from her. She should have to put herself at risk and actually "plan" in order to hit with it, like a roy or an Ike fsmash. But keeping people at a distance and getting a strong fair versus a super strong ultra fair does not showcase any sort of intelligent planning--It just proves you can space well. It doesn't fit into the typical game balance mechanics of having comparable risk and reward, especially when the payoff is so severe.

Also, people need to STOP defending lightening kicks on the basis that it has a small hitbox. If a hitbox is far from your body and you have air maneuverability, it doesn't really matter how big or small it is. All it means is that the "circle" hitbox is small, but if that circle is on a long *** stick (her leg), then it says very little in how hard it is to place in neutral.

Like someone else said: it's not like marth players have a hard time landing tippered fsmashes, just because the hitbox is "theoretically small".
That's actually a contradiction. Why should she put herself in such a risk? You like, completely left Marth out of the equation. Does he not get a reward for a perfectly spaced fsmash tipper? I mean, I see you point really, but you should try and iron it out before saying something like this.
 
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DarkStarStorm

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It's smaller and on a foot. A FOOT!!!! That's like saying that hitting with Marths tipper is hard.

I feel like I'm going to regret saying this.
It is. You should have thought that one through.
now this seems more sensible, decreasing the range while keeping the kill power makes it less of a cheese KO move, and more of a powerful tool that you get hit with when you are spacing poorly, or are being straight up outplayed
No, I would rather that they just made it have the power of bair.
 

ShadowGanon

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 29, 2013
Messages
1,120
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Washington
Well, I made a post on some directions they could move towards. I'll repost it below.



The one addendum to the above changes I would make, is that if Zelda's fair/Bair are to retain a "critical" hitbox hit, it should be CLOSE to her not far from her. She should have to put herself at risk and actually "plan" in order to hit with it, like a roy or an Ike fsmash. But keeping people at a distance and getting a strong fair versus a super strong ultra fair does not showcase any sort of intelligent planning--It just proves you can space well. It doesn't fit into the typical game balance mechanics of having comparable risk and reward, especially when the payoff is so severe.
If any, I feel like just a few of those changes would be needed. Though, if you think about it, the hitbox for the bair/fair should be on the the heel, because if you were kicked in real life, the heal would probably do the most damage. (Especially if the person was wearing high heals).
 

Red(SP)

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
261
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Apologize for the double post, but I made an edit to include the quote after my wall of text.
EDIT: Never mind, so outdated lol.
 

The_NZA

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2007
Messages
1,979
I think a lot of the current design aspects of Zelda are being blown out of proportion at the moment. I mean, this is literally all I've been reading for the past hour, so I'm really intrigued by the discussion as it's posing some new options for me to consider. I can't speak very well from a Zelda position, considering I main Ness and put the most work into him on a daily. But from what I've been reading, a lot of this confusion has been from a lack of intuitive creativity. I feel like you could be potentially limiting your options, Nyle, or simply defeating yourself in the mind.

Knowledge is power in the very aspect of it, so taking all from what you can learn from this may help you approach this character in a better manner than before. That's not to exclude that there are some obviously mixed feelings about this character, but there are plenty of other characters in this game that suffer from hitbox/aesthetics disproportion. I'll take some time out of the day to say, playing Zelda as Ness can be awfully terrifying if you've never played against a formidable Zelda before.

I used to watch Zhime's Zelda videos back in the day to prep me for a wifi tournament in which I was told he would be competing in. I made it to Winners Finals (don't ask me how, this was probably the most cleanest I'd have ever played in my life and will probably never reach a prime this high in the near future, at least w/o practice) in which I had to play him. This was actually the first time ever that I played the guy. Even though I watched some of his videos, that didn't help me for **** in the first game. I got 3 stocked and it made Mofat feel like the MU was highly in Zelda's favor because he began questioning his audience, not even sure on how to commentate the match.


I figure you would probably call me insane if I were to tell you that I don't think this MU is so parallel. From a distance or even a glance, someone could declare that Ness would indeed lose this inevitably. However, I thought against this idea. I was a very stubborn person about my main 2 years ago and while I'm more realistic about how well I can perform when using Ness, I've never let someone tell me that I can't win a MU. I mean, this is potentially the most balanced Smash ever put together. The second game was the cleanest I played the MU. Keeping in mind, in 2.1, Ness didn't have access to the airdash/wavebounce magnet, so I personally thought the MU was more INTENSE. Aside from suffering from his typical 'recovery is flawed' johns, of course.

I learned on the first stock that as stated earlier, if you hold magnet out as you're approaching a din from any angle, it will absorb. You can't absorb the explosion, so if you wanted to attempt to absorb the dins, you had to be extremely accurate with your position of the magnet and the position of the dins. The thing that really opened my mind about her din meta, is that if you're not conscious about the amount of seconds the dins have on the timer, this could easily mess up your precision in trying to eliminate them from the field. That also comes down to one of two things: You have to decide it upon yourself whether or not you believe it's worth the time to remove them from play.

Mind me when saying that Ness' neutral game is considerably under average of even most characters. He can combat dins by canceling them with any of the moves mentioned in WhiteLightnin's post earlier, however his poor zoning game will be of a great hindrance to him. Simply, how to deal with dins is personally the most important part of this MU in my honest opinion. Everything else is either an add-on of some kind, or just legitimately eye candy (like the sparkles on her moves, lmao). It won't matter in the end what type of follow-ups you get, if you even get them in the first place; if you don't know what to do against dins, you're going to look about as free as the pacific ocean.

You can usually decipher when you want to remove them from play based on given standpoints and scenarios. I'll paint an image:
Since this match happened on Final Destination, this is the map I'll use in the example. Contrary to belief, counter-picking him to FD was probably a negative on my part. At the time I felt the most comfortable playing on that stage.

So let's say you somehow found yourself near the ledge. In Smash, it's typically never a good idea to find yourself near the ledge in any given scenario unless the opponent is offstage and you're rearing yourself to deal with that appropriately. Zhime's din play is unique as they come. He constantly forces you to think about how you're going to combat the mystery of his character while dealing with the insane defense play. In my mind deeply, I didn't really care all too much about how he executed his dins. My main goal was that I wasn't going to get baited into a grab and thrown into a din in the far 45 degree angle of the stage as it detonates. I say I did an overall neat job with that because it never happened. However, when looking back, there were some things I could have did better or rather open myself to using.

Zhime notably liked surrounding me with dins. He noticed that I liked trying to take time out of my day to absorb them. I was open to other options at the time, but ignored them in an attempt to get some cover and get my percentage lower to 0%. So theoretically speaking, I believe that you may either absorb them to achieve this or cancel the dins to catch some breathing air.

But then let's say Zelda is on the other side of the map. Both characters honestly don't have much of an incentive to approach one another, however Ness will have more of an urge to approach Zelda due to overall neutral game and Ness' poor zoning kit. Although, there's no real law that says Ness HAS to approach Zelda. I personally find reading Zelda's teleport game isn't all that much trouble since I dabbled a bit of Mewtwo in Melee enough to know most angles a player would approach a recovery or approach scenario. Baiting teleport can work out for the Ness player, but you have to understand the properties of teleport to really utilize the option of baiting her. She has overall two mixups at that point: Her teleport without the cancel via airdodge, and her teleport with the cancel via airdodge.

So we have three dins around a Ness at the ledge, right side of Final Destination. You look pretty isolated from the other side of the map as opposed to Zelda's position. Let's say that these dins were placed... like one in front of you just around your main torso. You're like at the distance to knock it out with a bat or a perfectly spaced f-tilt. Then you have another din behind you at a near-to 45 degree angle from the first din, right above your head more than slightly behind you. Then you have another din at a near to spaced 45 degree angle right in front of you, but above and slightly to left of the din at your torso. There are a number of things you could do, but they could all be invalidated by her teleport/din reset-counter game.

Luckily in 3.0 or well, onward from 2.1, Ness can use airdash/wavebounce magnet variations to further increase his accuracy in absorbing the dins. Canceling dins to force her to throw more seem to be pretty viable in the MU as well, as it would force her to get more on the field. You'll more than likely have to worry about her teleport cancels in this scenario, but approaching the dins like this have proven to work well.

In 2.1, only the main kit aside from magnet basics applied. I lost my first stock as a result of magnet absorb inaccuracy. That was personally my fault, so I learned from that rather quickly. I noticed on a lot of throws or solid hits that sent Zhime flying offstage, he would love jump to gain some height away from Ness in an attempt to make it back towards the stage. I realized that because Zelda is a floaty character, this resulted in potentially his BIGGEST weakness in the MU. While he can slow his descent with dins or maybe bait my rising aerials with a Naryu, I figured hitting him with a PK Flash was potentially the safest counter to this method. I'm actually quite notorious for juggling poor SDI and anti-airing those who attempt to approach from a specific angle. The latter is of a gut feeling, thankfully.

Prior to this match, I had absolutely no idea what the heck a love jump was, even though I dabbled a few years of competitive smash with Brawl before switching to PM. A lot of my punishes were based on instinct, because I wasn't exactly sure how the match would progress so I made sure to try a lot of things that I felt were appropriate. I managed to hit him with the move and later in the match started adjusting to his keen style of Zelda. I don't typically remember every vivid detail of this match, seeing how 2.1 came out like 2 years ago. However, I can tell you my PK Flash sniping on his love jump was rather consistent. Am I saying this should be the ultimate option to combat the scenario? No, I was a very inexperienced player and especially an inexperienced player now, but more experienced than when the matches came and finished.

I did get 3-0'd. It was morally depressing, but I took the loss as an overall lesson to the MU. I think that if with the factors listed here that Ness can do to combat dins and some of Zelda's recent enhancements/nerfs, there is more but a glimmer of hope of what you may possibly believe actually exists here.

In regards to toxic elements, I don't believe PK Fire is as toxic as certain other factors that characters may use in this game. This is not to say it's completely fine to belittle every single toxic element in this game and say 'hey it's completely fine to have a so and so move and such and such'. I think a main source of this belief is due to the guilt of using a move that's auto-pressure, but in compensation, is a depressing attempt to make up for a character's weaknesses. I enjoyed reading your thread of plausible tweaks to the character and would personally enjoy seeing most of them, if not all, in use. But as this game is progressing, it's becoming quite apparent that the move itself is being pieced apart by a forming counter-meta. I feel that some of this should honestly just settle for a while to see what may happen since this isn't just a bunch of new people coming into the spectrum. Most people who play PM have some sort of Smash background already, so honestly seeing how the certain factors develop would be a pretty safe field in terms of what changes could be made if there were any to propose in sake of bettering a character.

That's actually a contradiction. Why should she put herself in such a risk? You like, completely left Marth out of the equation. Does he not get a reward for a perfectly spaced fsmash tipper? I mean, I see you point really, but you should try and iron it out before saying something like this.
Thank you for the in depth story, your time, and comments. I will continue to look and learn the counterplay of Zelda, and I had the pleasure of playing Zhime at Apex. Zhime will attest to the fact that I know the matchup better than some critics of Zelda... I guess there isn't more to it than learning more.
 

WhiteLightnin

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now this seems more sensible, decreasing the range while keeping the kill power makes it less of a cheese KO move, and more of a powerful tool that you get hit with when you are spacing poorly, or are being straight up outplayed
I see what you are saying but Zelda isn't the only character to have such a move. Marth being an example as a character with superior mobility as well. Most of Zelda's moves are designed to hit within a pretty close set distance away from her. Her specials being the exception of course. The critical version of lightning kick fits right in with that range as well as not being disjointed.
 

The_NZA

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That's actually a contradiction. Why should she put herself in such a risk? You like, completely left Marth out of the equation. Does he not get a reward for a perfectly spaced fsmash tipper? I mean, I see you point really, but you should try and iron it out before saying something like this.
I'm sorry, What exactly is the contradiction? She puts herself in such risk in order to land a fair that kills at 60-70% on most of the cast...how is that not fair? By comparison, a Marth perfectly spaced fsmash keeps Marth grounded and open to counterhit. All smash attacks are balanced by that fact: that they can't be used evasively and you can't manuever yourself after using them, making you open to a hit. Marth's fsmash is no different.
 

Daftatt

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I'm sorry, What exactly is the contradiction? She puts herself in such risk in order to land a fair that kills at 60-70% on most of the cast...how is that not fair? By comparison, a Marth perfectly spaced fsmash keeps Marth grounded and open to counterhit. All smash attacks are balanced by that fact: that they can't be used evasively and you can't manuever yourself after using them, making you open to a hit. Marth's fsmash is no different.
I think it's safe to say that Zelda's fair is an extremely powerful move with a lot of potential, but let's wait and see if that potential is too great before we start nerfing things. Did Zhime win apex? There are lots of ways to deal with fair, and even to punish it. Sheild grab is still a thing if it's SHFFLed
 

WhiteLightnin

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I'm sorry, What exactly is the contradiction? She puts herself in such risk in order to land a fair that kills at 60-70% on most of the cast...how is that not fair? By comparison, a Marth perfectly spaced fsmash keeps Marth grounded and open to counterhit. All smash attacks are balanced by that fact: that they can't be used evasively and you can't manuever yourself after using them, making you open to a hit. Marth's fsmash is no different.
While Zelda is not as open to a hit after Marth's forward Smash she still is open. I typed all about it in that earlier post I told you I was going to edit. I apologize it came out so late, somehow I clicked off the screen and had to retype the whole thing. Also sword characters are a very difficult match up for Zelda. By moving the critical lightning kick sweet spot closer to the body it would really be throwing those matchups out of balance.
 

Daftatt

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While Zelda is not as open to a hit after Marth's forward Smash she still is open. I typed all about it in that earlier post I told you I was going to edit. I apologize it came out so late, somehow I clicked off the screen and had to retype the whole thing. Also sword characters are a very difficult match up for Zelda. By moving the critical lightning kick sweet spot closer to the body it would really be throwing those matchups out of balance.
lol, implying the metagame is mature enough for any MU in P:M to be "in balance". Everyone can keep debating, but I think PMBR has already taken the correct path, wait and see.
 

WhiteLightnin

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I think it's safe to say that Zelda's fair is an extremely powerful move with a lot of potential, but let's wait and see if that potential is too great before we start nerfing things. Did Zhime win apex? There are lots of ways to deal with fair, and even to punish it. Sheild grab is still a thing if it's SHFFLed
Thank you Daftatt that has been one of the points I have been trying to emphasize the whole time. It's even in my original thread post towards the end. Let's give her more time and see how things play out before we start making any major changes.

^Exactly, much more time is needed.
 

Zerudahime

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lol, implying the metagame is mature enough for any MU in P:M to be "in balance". Everyone can keep debating, but I think PMBR has already taken the correct path, wait and see.
Certain people have created a meta for this character since the games release.
The ''right path'' is highly suggestive in this sense and holds very little weight in this community while taking into consideration the changes constantly made to the rest of the cast.

Wait and see.
 

I Dair You

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Sup, this is Dark Falco, just gonna throw in my 2 cents.
As someone who plays Zhime every night, I can safely say that Zelda's current design is just fine as it is. Zelda's most complained about moves, Nayru's and the Lightning kicks, can be baited and punished like any other move. However, most people are undeducated of what Zelda really can do, these people run right into her Nayru's and her kicks and quickly cry OP.

Anyways, tbh Zelda really doesnt have a move that's overcentralizing atm, if youre being hit by Nayru's and lightning kicks every 2 seconds, then you may need to rethink your approach. Zelda is a counter character. Most fighting games have at least one or two and I believe Zelda fits this niche well. All you gotta do is space with dash dancing and wavedashing in order to bait Nayrus and punish the endlag. Nayru's is VERY punishable from above. Try full hopping an aerial into Zelda when you see it. And lmao NZA, I am able to beat Zhime with Ness, and hes not even my main. Did you ever stop and think maybe Zhime has TONS of experience against Ness? You gotta learn what Zelda can do, both offensively and defensively, whether it be her combo game or her ability to escape combos with Love Jumping. Just like any other matchup in this game. Think of Love Jumping as a way worse Marth up b. Instead of following up, bait the Zelda to Love Jump then punish her as she lands.

Zhime is the one and only, everyone's current opinion on Zelda goes hand in hand with how he is single handedly pushing Zelda's metagame forward, what he does really shouldnt be taken into consideration of the big picture considering how his playstyle and knowledge of Zelda is so drastically above everyone else's atm. I recall the PMBR once saying they would never nerf a character based on a single player's dominance. I'm hoping they stay true to their word because Zelda is a superbly designed character.
 

Arcalyth

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Like Zhime said, the sweetspot is as hard to hit with as rest. I say that she is perfectly balanced and if you take anything away from her, she'll be garbage. Now, a few small buffs wouldn't hurt her. Such as: teledashing off the respawn platform, or the immense startup of aerial up b being canceled if you touch ground during its startup.
she can already do that
 

Daftatt

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Sup, this is Dark Falco, just gonna throw in my 2 cents.
As someone who plays Zhime every night, I can safely say that Zelda's current design is just fine as it is. Zelda's most complained about moves, Nayru's and the Lightning kicks, can be baited and punished like any other move. However, most people are undeducated of what Zelda really can do, these people run right into her Nayru's and her kicks and quickly cry OP.

Anyways, tbh Zelda really doesnt have a move that's overcentralizing atm, if youre being hit by Nayru's and lightning kicks every 2 seconds, then you may need to rethink your approach. Zelda is a counter character. Most fighting games have at least one or two and I believe Zelda fits this niche well. All you gotta do is space with dash dancing and wavedashing in order to bait Nayrus and punish the endlag. Nayru's is VERY punishable from above. Try full hopping an aerial into Zelda when you see it. And lmao NZA, I am able to beat Zhime with Ness, and hes not even my main. Did you ever stop and think maybe Zhime has TONS of experience against Ness? You gotta learn what Zelda can do, both offensively and defensively, whether it be her combo game or her ability to escape combos with Love Jumping. Just like any other matchup in this game. Think of Love Jumping as a way worse Marth up b. Instead of following up, bait the Zelda to Love Jump then punish her as she lands.

Zhime is the one and only, everyone's current opinion on Zelda goes hand in hand with how he is single handedly pushing Zelda's metagame forward, what he does really shouldnt be taken into consideration of the big picture considering how his playstyle and knowledge of Zelda is so drastically above everyone else's atm. I recall the PMBR once saying they would never nerf a character based on a single player's dominance. I'm hoping they stay true to their word because Zelda is a superbly designed character.
/debate
 

DarkStarStorm

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I'm afraid that Mimi freak was too robust, and I too weak... The Pure
Heart I quickly took and hid where she would never look... But now
you're here; hooray! This bad tide will turn today! Soon that awful
Mimi pays... You and I can now join up to teach that tiny, bratty pup a
lesson: now let's power up!
she can already do that
Not with me...
 

Pika_thunder

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People, enough! Nothing needs to be changed! Whinny johners have flooded this thread with stuff like DURR LITNIN KICK IZ OP PLZ NRF ITZ SUPD when really their character has complete counters.

Lightning kick: shield + dodge just don't get hit
Naryu's love: bait it, bait it, bait it!
Din's fire: serves you right for camping agains Zelda, the most you can throw is ~1 if the other person is on the complete other side of FD, after that if she gets 3 out it's your on god-da** fault!

If anything Zelda needs a few buffs in the movement speed zone so she can compete at higher levels.Zelda is the only character in this mod I feel comfortable with I beg the PMBR not to change her. PLEASE! She is the only character that I feel I can call my main :) Sadly I hear whiny Johners are winning and she is getting über-nerfed. DO NOT LET WHINY ******* win. If you give them this victory they will just go after another, completely balenced character, with people who have spent 100sof hours developing the metagame!

BTW... (Spoilers for legend of Korra book two)
Current Zelda mains: Korra "you must not win!"
Johners: Unalock "I will end your world!"
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
personally i agree that zelda needs to be buffed. but i also think it's a bit of a reality check that so many people have problems with just this one character. i don't see near this level of animosity directed at any other character. her ability to negate interaction is not balanced by her ability to interact with the opponent. a lack of interaction is indicative of poor design by itself.
 

DarkStarStorm

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personally i agree that zelda needs to be buffed. but i also think it's a bit of a reality check that so many people have problems with just this one character. i don't see near this level of animosity directed at any other character. her ability to negate interaction is not balanced by her ability to interact with the opponent. a lack of interaction is indicative of poor design by itself.
Yay people agree with me! Which MU would you say is harder, Roy or Marth?
 
D

Deleted member

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i don't know enough about my own character's MUs in this game, let alone those of other characters. anything i say would be ignorant at best. i know i'd rather be marth than roy against zelda on the other side though.
 

DarkStarStorm

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i don't know enough about my own character's MUs in this game, let alone those of other characters. anything i say would be ignorant at best. i know i'd rather be marth than roy against zelda on the other side though.
I totally agree. See a Zelda main agrees with you, you do know.(-:
I'm actually taking up Marth.
 

jtm94

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I believe Roy is much easier to deal with than Marth.

Zelda does need better ways to interact. I would give up dins almost entirely or have it changed if she could be made to interact more.

I try to play Zelda aggressively and I can't do it against any character that isn't a super fastfaller. Every single move shoots up in the air leaving few approaches besides uair, and if that misses they are below and at advantage. Zelda's strongest zones are on the ground even with someone, in the air even with someone, or them being JUST above her.

I literately cannot land Lightning kick on one of my friends. I really just pray he messes up so I can land a kick, and sometimes he does, but he effectively nullifies any camping I try to do, and then stuffs any approach I try to do. Basically, I'm screwed either way.

Zelda is deceptively good against bad players, and visibly bad against good players.
 

DarkStarStorm

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I believe Roy is much easier to deal with than Marth.

Zelda does need better ways to interact. I would give up dins almost entirely or have it changed if she could be made to interact more.

I try to play Zelda aggressively and I can't do it against any character that isn't a super fastfaller. Every single move shoots up in the air leaving few approaches besides uair, and if that misses they are below and at advantage. Zelda's strongest zones are on the ground even with someone, in the air even with someone, or them being JUST above her.

I literately cannot land Lightning kick on one of my friends. I really just pray he messes up so I can land a kick, and sometimes he does, but he effectively nullifies any camping I try to do, and then stuffs any approach I try to do. Basically, I'm screwed either way.

Zelda is deceptively good against bad players, and visibly bad against good players.
I think the solution could be that there is less ending lag on side b. Because you can play offensively with dins out.
And are you using and abusing the telegame? Because that is the other side of Zelda, her offensive side.
 

WhiteLightnin

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I believe Roy is much easier to deal with than Marth.

Zelda does need better ways to interact. I would give up dins almost entirely or have it changed if she could be made to interact more.

I try to play Zelda aggressively and I can't do it against any character that isn't a super fastfaller. Every single move shoots up in the air leaving few approaches besides uair, and if that misses they are below and at advantage. Zelda's strongest zones are on the ground even with someone, in the air even with someone, or them being JUST above her.

I literately cannot land Lightning kick on one of my friends. I really just pray he messes up so I can land a kick, and sometimes he does, but he effectively nullifies any camping I try to do, and then stuffs any approach I try to do. Basically, I'm screwed either way.

Zelda is deceptively good against bad players, and visibly bad against good players.
For the lighter characters and floaties (including Zelda herself) try comboing from her jab and her dash attack. Nayru's, jab, lightning kick can work.
 

drsusredfish

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personally i agree that zelda needs to be buffed. but i also think it's a bit of a reality check that so many people have problems with just this one character. i don't see near this level of animosity directed at any other character. her ability to negate interaction is not balanced by her ability to interact with the opponent. a lack of interaction is indicative of poor design by itself.
I don't think there is a lack of interactions with zelda its more of a lack of engagement which isn't unique to her. ivy, samus, snake, to a certain extent even jiggs and marth want to avoid engagements. Zelda's interactions are just a different type of interaction. interaction is more how you influence something whether its direct or indirect. Engagement is more about staying directly involved. Zelda gives you plenty to interact with but doesn't engage which is what a zoner/range fighter does.

I categorize zelda as a passive aggressive fighter. And people hate passive aggressive things like a backhanded compliment. for instance Passive aggressive people don't want to be in the heat of things but they don't want to be ignored either. You hear and recognize a backhanded compliment from this person you can't be really be insulted by it but you can't be fully accepting of it either. You have to choose how to react to it. you could get angry and freak out or you can try and understand what the other person is really trying to say and why they said it.

You see the din on the field but you get to choose what should be done about it. The way to beat her passive aggressive nature is understanding her underlying motives. does she want me to jump, roll, block, attack? Zelda makes you choose that's her interaction. TLDR The opponents interaction should be predictive not reflexive so they can engage her.

That was just about design and her design is great to me. When i loose to her, and i really only loose to Zhime's zelda, its because i made a mistake not because i couldn't get to her.
Her kicks and what not are no worse than a falcon knee when you consider how fast falcon can put that knee just about anywhere in a split second.
 

DarkStarStorm

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I don't think there is a lack of interactions with zelda its more of a lack of engagement which isn't unique to her. ivy, samus, snake, to a certain extent even jiggs and marth want to avoid engagements. Zelda's interactions are just a different type of interaction. interaction is more how you influence something whether its direct or indirect. Engagement is more about staying directly involved. Zelda gives you plenty to interact with but doesn't engage which is what a zoner/range fighter does.

I categorize zelda as a passive aggressive fighter. And people hate passive aggressive things like a backhanded compliment. for instance Passive aggressive people don't want to be in the heat of things but they don't want to be ignored either. You hear and recognize a backhanded compliment from this person you can't be really be insulted by it but you can't be fully accepting of it either. You have to choose how to react to it. you could get angry and freak out or you can try and understand what the other person is really trying to say and why they said it.

You see the din on the field but you get to choose what should be done about it. The way to beat her passive aggressive nature is understanding her underlying motives. does she want me to jump, roll, block, attack? Zelda makes you choose that's her interaction. TLDR The opponents interaction should be predictive not reflexive so they can engage her.

That was just about design and her design is great to me. When i loose to her, and i really only loose to Zhime's zelda, its because i made a mistake not because i couldn't get to her.
Her kicks and what not are no worse than a falcon knee when you consider how fast falcon can put that knee just about anywhere in a split second.
And the fact that Falcon can combo the Knee, Zelda can't without dins. Those she may not have out. The thing is, all you guys have seen is a trap based Zelda. But have you ever seen a Telebased Zelda? Those are aggressive.
 

PrincessZelda19

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Greetings everyone! As the title suggests, I'm creating this thread to talk about Zelda's balance in ProjectM and to stress the importance of MU learning. Please feel free to express your opinion, but I ask that we keep things cordial and simply about Zelda's fit in the game (no personal attacks). The rest of this post will include points (some of which contain my personal opinion) about how Zelda is balanced, other brief character references, how Zelda brings diversity to the game, as well as mentioning specifics about her current moveset.

It is my personal opinion that Zelda is currently very well balanced in relation to the rest of the cast. I feel she does compete well within the competitive community, but is not OP by any means. Any sense of her being overpowered simply comes from a lack of knowledge about the Zelda matchup. Remember, Melee has been out for a little over 12 years now and it has been concluded by a large portion of the community that she is not tournament viable in that game. It took time to learn she isn't viable. She has similarities to that version of Smash but a lot has changed. Therefore, she is now for the most part an entirely new matchup to learn. Fox, on the other hand, has had his design reverted back to his Melee design as close as possible, and thus the community knows what to expect from him. Zelda has a lot of powerful kill moves and is great at controlling space/limiting options through the use of Din's. This can make it very frustrating and seem impossible to fight against her. This brings me back to my main point. This feeling will arise only if one doesn't know the matchup. The reality is she has some great tools to make her a viable character, but they can be countered well within the range of human capabilities. It simply comes down to Zelda matchup knowledge, outsmarting your opponent, and making the right choices at the right time. I believe those are the exact elements people look for in any type of fighting game including Smash. In the perfect Smash game, it would be nice to be able to pick any character, learn how it functions, learn how other characters function, and be able to defeat them by applying that knowledge with decision making that allows you to outsmart your opponent through your ability as a player. All the characters would have tools to allow them to perform well at their highest level so that any of them could win against any other. The deciding factors would entirely be upon one's situational awareness and the ability to apply it in the middle of the battle. In other words, you outsmart and outplay your opponent. You won because you are you, not because you played as character "x". Obviously, this dream is not possible to fully achieve (short of only having one character which would be extremely boring) but that doesn't mean we can't strive to come as close as possible. I feel Zelda fits well into that mold while providing an approach that breathes life into the diversity of the game. But why simply take my word for it? Allow me to show you.:)

I have taken a great deal of time to learn how Zelda works including many of her tricks. Below is an exploration of how many of Zelda's current known tools function within the context of balance for your convenience. The balance is demonstrated through the pros and cons I mention in each description. I am guessing most of the gripes people have with Zelda concern her Din's Fire, Nayru's Love, and Farore's Wind so you may want to jump to those sections if you feel so inclined.

  • Din's Fire (forward B). Perhaps one of Zelda's greatest tools, Din's allows Zelda to limit multiple options of her opponent at one time and is great for allowing her to extend her combos. She can have up to three set at one time and there is a set timer for them to go off after they are placed. Placing a new Din's resets the timer and they will all go off at the same time. This means you can constantly refresh the timer as much as you want as long as you can place a new Din's until you are ready to wait out the time for them to detonate. The developers have included a visual cue on the Din's flame once it is set so that both you and your opponent can know exactly when it will detonate. Zelda can also choose to manually detonate all Din's currently on the stage by using her down B. The explosion is NOT instantaneous. It will not happen until Zelda is imbued with her white light visual so there is definitely time to react before being caught in any of the explosions. Keep in mind the explosion will be bigger than the space the set Din's occupies. The Din's mines get bigger and faster the longer they travel before they are placed, and the bigger the mine the bigger the explosion. You are not helpless to deal with these mines once they have been placed! You can clank them with your shield which while the mine remains on the field, you can safely move through it until the explosion occurs. If another mine is placed on the stage, the original mine you clanked will be able to hit you. You can get rid of them with other projectiles and by attacking them. They can't be reflected to hurt Zelda. The mine portion of Din's can be absorbed by Ness and Lucas but the explosion can NOT be absorbed. I feel it is a little bit easier to absorb with Lucas as his version of absorption extends in front of him rather than around his body. With Ness you either have to space it really well or cause some form of momentum that will carry you through the Din's with your absorption shield activated before hand. Also, Zelda is extremely vulnerable while placing using Din's. The only way she can hit you is by moving the mine and placing it in your path if you are approaching her and with a series of jumps or a quick roll you should be able to get to her and punish before she has time to react. This is assuming you are starting from a close to close-medium range if you have no form of projectile. Even after placing the mine she still suffers from some cool down time that you can use to your advantage. However, most experienced Zelda's are well aware of this fact so they will likely be pretty smart about their situational use of Din's so as to minimize such an opportunity.
  • Sheik Transformation (down B). As mentioned above, choosing to change into Sheik will cause any mines on the field to detonate after a short pause. The explosion will occur when Zelda cloaks herself within the white light. Also, both Zelda and Sheik can buffer any attack out of the transformation that ends while in the air with a directional input on the control stick and one of the attack buttons. This also works with either attack button and no control stick input. The c-stick will not work and the buffer will not work while grounded. A continuous attack that occurs when the transformation is finished makes the transformation unsafe (such as Mario's dair). You could also always choose to bait the Zelda for a whiff, counter, etc.
  • Farore's Wind (up B). This is another one of Zelda's major tools as it aides in recovery and allows Zelda to close down on greater distances more quickly. Near the startup she has an attack that comes out and covers her whole body. She can be attacked offstage between the attack and before she actually disappears to teleport. Upon reentry another attack comes out that can be shielded and punished or even punished immediately with the right attack and spacing. During a grounded FW she can cancel it into a wave dash at any time after she disappears for the teleportation and before she reappears with the attack. She can play mind games with this technique but you can react and punish anywhere she could appear near enough to threaten you since she cancels with a wave dash. She can not use the cancel if she disappears for the teleport while in the air. I mention this because she can do the canceled version of FW if she starts the input in the air but lands on the ground before the actual teleportation takes place.
  • Nayru's Love (neutral B). I feel this is the move that receives the most complaints. However, it is incredibly balanced. There are two versions of it that behave slightly differently from each other. The grounded version has intangibility, but it does not start until the fourth frame. The intangibility ends one frame after the attack begins. While this may seem very good it is a move that should only be used when you have a guaranteed hit. The end lag on it is huge. It is so huge that one can shield it, let go of shield, AND attack before Zelda can do anything about it. The aerial version is one of the main ways Zelda can start her combos as it can land cancel if Zelda lands from the air anytime after the attack portion of the move finishes. However, as of 3.0, it's combo ability has been a bit more limited due to the couple extra frames added before it can be acted out of. This means the land canceled version is no longer really a way of creating shield pressure as the opponent has just enough time to input an action before Zelda can follow up with another move. The aerial version's intangibility does not start until the fifth frame and it ends the same frame as the attack begins. Notice the tweak between the two versions for balancing. The aerial version can land cancel but when hit in the air at the end of the intangibility it will trade rather than overpower another attack. Furthermore, the attack only comes out horizontally close to Zelda's waist making it easy to hit her during the attack portion of Nayru's when approaching from the correct angles. This is less of an issue with the grounded version as usually the opponent is also grounded. Zelda players also have the option of not canceling the aerial version by continuing to hold the B button. While this means Zelda will have to deal with the usual ending hitlag, the reflective properties of Nayru's stay out longer. This could be especially useful against a Samus or Mewtwo that have learned the timing of your land cancel and time a missile or fully charged shot to hit you. By holding the B button, you can reflect the shot/projectile back at them potentially catching them by surprise. Using Nayru's at the end of hitstun causes Zelda to move downward while performing it. Some people complain about it interrupting their combos. Once again, the intangibility does not come out until frame 5 and thus it was not a true combo anyway if the move can be performed. Finally, if one notices there is a spot in his/her combo where the Zelda is repeatedly interrupting it with Nayru's why not simply bait it out? Even if the Zelda gets the land cancel (which is not too often in this situation) she is still wide open for a punish. She has another option called a Love Jump which is basically a hold over from Brawl. It is done by jumping right at the end of hitstun and immediately pressing B. This will send Zelda high into the air while performing Nayru's. Balance was applied to this option in two ways. First off, it uses up Zelda's double jump, second while it may cause her to temporarily escape harm it sends her high into the air. ZELDAS DO NOT WANT TO BE IN THE AIR ABOVE YOU. It is her weakest position if you are not recovering. She has very few options while above you. She is not a fast faller so it takes her awhile to get down. She can use teleport, but you can punish it both shortly after startup and at the end. As previously mentioned, Nayru's only attacks horizontally from around the middle of her character model so that won't work well. Her dair takes too long to come out to be in any way reliable. She could try to intercept you with a Din's but in this situation that takes ridiculous timing and placement. It could be just me but if you know all of this stuff about Nayru's it sounds pretty balanced to me, and I don't mean just in theory.
  • F-Smash. Zelda mostly relies upon this move for spacing. It has good range and a disjointed hitbox. It has a slow start up and can be perfect shielded throughout the entire attack allowing for a punish on the end of it. It also has a fair amount of end lag so it can sometimes be punished on whiff. Interestingly, it does have below average hitlag in comparison to other F-Smashes in the game. The F-Smash is also useful for pushing opponents off of platforms or the edge of the stage if performed on a regular shield and properly spaced. You will want to make sure the final hitbox of the move lands for the greatest effect on the shield push. Little to no combo potential without aid of a Din's.
  • D-Smash. This moves comes out fast and is designed to give Zelda space from opponents breathing down her neck. It is easily punishable on whiff. It also can be used for shield push scenarios. Little to no combo potential without aid of a Din's.
  • Up-Smash. This is one of Zelda's moves that allows for a further combo depending on the character. It comes out pretty quickly but is easily punished on whiff or on shield. It also only attacks where her hand reaches in the air so characters have to be right on her/immediately next to her if they are going to be caught from the ground. It can also be ducked under by some characters. It can be SDI'd out of if the opponent is on the very tip of the hitbox right when it first connects.
  • neutral A. Zelda's jab is a single jab that deals decent damage for a jab. It can be used to combo depending on the opponents position and their use of DI. This being said, it is also very slow for a jab. Although one of her moves with less endlag, it is still relatively unsafe on shield without very good spacing.
  • f-tilt. This is one of Zelda's major set up moves for combos. However, it has to be properly spaced or it will knock the opponent away from her. The opponent can also mix up his/her DI so as to make it hard for her to follow up with her optimum combos. It will also only combo from low to medium percents. It can be used for shield push scenarios.
  • d-tilt. d-tilt will cause the opponent to trip at higher percents but can be DI'd to make combo followups difficult potentially leading to a tech chase instead. It's dangerous to use at lower percents as your opponent can easily attack you right back with something much more fierce. It can poke under shields when small enough.
  • u-tilt. This is used for KOing off the top of the stage and for blocking attacks from above where Up-Smash isn't desirable. Her arm has intangibility so it can block attacks from above that beat out Up-Smash. It can also hit directly in front of her and behind her. However, once started it takes awhile to finish so opponents from above have the option of baiting it out and then punishing accordingly.
  • neutral air. This is a continuous attack that is mostly used as a more reliable followup out of her f-tilt than her other aerials as it is more easy to land. It has very limited combo followups, most of which are percentage and character dependent. It is very hard to DI out of it, but as followups are limited/non-existant it is pretty balanced. It is also a good option to use when tech chasing an opponent up on platforms.
  • Lightning Kicks (fair & bair). This is perhaps what Zelda is most famous for. They have three types of hits which are a fusion of Brawl and Melee. First there is the flub. At lower percentages this allows the opponent to attack Zelda back. At higher percentages she may be able to follow up with another one. Second she has a melee sized hitbox that can potentially combo at lower percentages if the opponent really screws up their DI. Finally there is the critical lightning kick which has a much smaller hit box and does the most damage/knockback. These take quite a lot of precision and perfect spacing to land, and as all of Zelda's combos are heavily influenced by the opponent's DI it makes it that much harder to pull off. There are also slight differences in the damage between each corresponding version of fair & bair as well as knockback and angles which will not be covered here. Bair comes out slightly faster than fair. Here's how the types of kicks work. Any part of the hitbox that is within Zelda's body will result in the flub. The next available type of hit traveling away from the flub is the critical lightning kick. It is approximately right at the toe and must make contact perfectly right on the first frame it comes out. Finally, the regular lightning kick extends the furthest away past the critical lightning kick sweet spot. From a strategy stand point, this means at lower percents it is probably better to space for the regular kick as if you go in for the critical and get too close the flub will result. This means you can immediately be punished. Flubs become more useful at higher percents as you can chain them together and then finish with the critical lightning kick.
  • Uair. This move has a nice disjointed hitbox but takes a bit to start up and has a lot of end lag. It can be baited and punished without great difficulty. This move can also be chained together a couple times depending on the character and whether or not it hits with its sweet spot.
  • Dair. Dair is a meteor smash that is only reliably used on opponents who are recovering or punished during some action such as a roll. It also uses a sweet/sour spot system. As with many meteors it has a slower start up and long end lag. Even when recovering, the Zelda has to make a pretty hard read to land it if the character as any sort of recovery game. Even just varying the falling speed is likely enough to throw her off.
  • grabs/throws. NONE* of Zelda's throws lead to a guaranteed combo if the opponent DIs properly (barring the use of Din's). Her grabs do have good range and can reach very slightly behind her, but they are very slow. Her throw that has the best combo potential, d-throw, is the slowest of all of them and can easily be DI'd on reaction. If you are really good with reaction time you can DI all of them on reaction. B-throw is a kill throw but again with DI you potentially save that stock for quite awhile. It is a great setup for Zelda's Din's game. *There are actually a few exceptions to this statement such as up-throw on the spacies.
  • taunts. Both her side taunt and up taunt have hitboxes but as you can imagine that being taunts they have a very late start up and extremely limited uses. Watch out for the flame and sparkles lol (I consider it mostly an easter egg).
I have now discussed Zelda's entire move set including many of her nuances, and how to get around them. As you can see, she is far from OP but does have some great tools. OP implies that a character has tools that are virtually impossible to deal with consistently on a human level and that the rest of the cast lacks a means to deal with creating an unfair advantage. This simply does not hold true in any way for Zelda. She is not a rush down character but rather a trap character that punishes very hard. Plus since she punishes so hard, she is purposely slower (running speed, wave dash, start up & end lag, fall speed) so that she has way less opportunities in order to do so. This allows the opponent to get away with far more against her than many of the rest of the cast. She is floaty making her hard to combo so she gets more than just one chance before she loses a stock in most cases. Zelda players have to be very efficient with their movement, at controlling space, and not missing opportunities to punish as they are more limited. In this way she requires a lot of skill to master. It's in a different form from say Fox which is more about applying ridiculous amounts of pressure and overwhelming your opponent with sheer speed magnified through tech skill. This requires much skill also of course, but it is simply different. There's that diversity I mentioned much earlier. To me, Zelda adds another way to play the game which makes Project M far more interesting. This also stresses LEARNING matchups which only serve to further strengthen the core of the game. Heck I just took care of most of the knowledge component for one character for you. Now you just have to learn the timings and the situations.

Lastly I want to thank all the developers of the PMBR for making another character viable at a competitive level. Melee was great, but the main problem was that the entire game was dominated by arguably four to five characters at most which isn't so good for a game that has 25/26 characters. With Project M we have an even larger roster now. I think you have a great character on your hands, and that simply time is needed before any major buff/nerfs would need to be considered. Keep up the good work!:cool:
Zelda is a character that is easy to play as but don't under estimate her
 

jtm94

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
1,384
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
I try to use the tele game, but it only works against bad players unless they're easy to mind game with.
I definitely incorporate teleporting as an offensive option though.
 
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