Zelda Balance and MU Learning

[WhiteLightnin]

Greetings everyone! As the title suggests, I'm creating this thread to talk about Zelda's balance in ProjectM and to stress the importance of MU learning. Please feel free to express your opinion, but I ask that we keep things cordial and simply about Zelda's fit in the game (no personal attacks). The rest of this post will include points (some of which contain my personal opinion) about how Zelda is balanced, other brief character references, how Zelda brings diversity to the game, as well as mentioning specifics about her current moveset.

It is my personal opinion that Zelda is currently very well balanced in relation to the rest of the cast. I feel she does compete well within the competitive community, but is not OP by any means. Any sense of her being overpowered simply comes from a lack of knowledge about the Zelda matchup. Remember, Melee has been out for a little over 12 years now and it has been concluded by a large portion of the community that she is not tournament viable in that game. It took time to learn she isn't viable. She has similarities to that version of Smash but a lot has changed. Therefore, she is now for the most part an entirely new matchup to learn. Fox, on the other hand, has had his design reverted back to his Melee design as close as possible, and thus the community knows what to expect from him. Zelda has a lot of powerful kill moves and is great at controlling space/limiting options through the use of Din's. This can make it very frustrating and seem impossible to fight against her. This brings me back to my main point. This feeling will arise only if one doesn't know the matchup. The reality is she has some great tools to make her a viable character, but they can be countered well within the range of human capabilities. It simply comes down to Zelda matchup knowledge, outsmarting your opponent, and making the right choices at the right time. I believe those are the exact elements people look for in any type of fighting game including Smash. In the perfect Smash game, it would be nice to be able to pick any character, learn how it functions, learn how other characters function, and be able to defeat them by applying that knowledge with decision making that allows you to outsmart your opponent through your ability as a player. All the characters would have tools to allow them to perform well at their highest level so that any of them could win against any other. The deciding factors would entirely be upon one's situational awareness and the ability to apply it in the middle of the battle. In other words, you outsmart and outplay your opponent. You won because you are you, not because you played as character "x". Obviously, this dream is not possible to fully achieve (short of only having one character which would be extremely boring) but that doesn't mean we can't strive to come as close as possible. I feel Zelda fits well into that mold while providing an approach that breathes life into the diversity of the game. But why simply take my word for it? Allow me to show you.

I have taken a great deal of time to learn how Zelda works including many of her tricks. Below is an exploration of how many of Zelda's current known tools function within the context of balance for your convenience. The balance is demonstrated through the pros and cons I mention in each description. I am guessing most of the gripes people have with Zelda concern her Din's Fire, Nayru's Love, and Farore's Wind so you may want to jump to those sections if you feel so inclined.

• Din's Fire (forward B). Perhaps one of Zelda's greatest tools, Din's allows Zelda to limit multiple options of her opponent at one time and is great for allowing her to extend her combos. She can have up to three set at one time and there is a set timer for them to go off after they are placed. Placing a new Din's resets the timer and they will all go off at the same time. This means you can constantly refresh the timer as much as you want as long as you can place a new Din's until you are ready to wait out the time for them to detonate. The developers have included a visual cue on the Din's flame once it is set so that both you and your opponent can know exactly when it will detonate. Zelda can also choose to manually detonate all Din's currently on the stage by using her down B. The explosion is NOT instantaneous. It will not happen until Zelda is imbued with her white light visual so there is definitely time to react before being caught in any of the explosions. Keep in mind the explosion will be bigger than the space the set Din's occupies. The Din's mines get bigger and faster the longer they travel before they are placed, and the bigger the mine the bigger the explosion. You are not helpless to deal with these mines once they have been placed! You can clank them with your shield which while the mine remains on the field, you can safely move through it until the explosion occurs. If another mine is placed on the stage, the original mine you clanked will be able to hit you. You can get rid of them with other projectiles and by attacking them. They can't be reflected to hurt Zelda. The mine portion of Din's can be absorbed by Ness and Lucas but the explosion can NOT be absorbed. I feel it is a little bit easier to absorb with Lucas as his version of absorption extends in front of him rather than around his body. With Ness you either have to space it really well or cause some form of momentum that will carry you through the Din's with your absorption shield activated before hand. Also, Zelda is extremely vulnerable while placing using Din's. The only way she can hit you is by moving the mine and placing it in your path if you are approaching her and with a series of jumps or a quick roll you should be able to get to her and punish before she has time to react. This is assuming you are starting from a close to close-medium range if you have no form of projectile. Even after placing the mine she still suffers from some cool down time that you can use to your advantage. However, most experienced Zelda's are well aware of this fact so they will likely be pretty smart about their situational use of Din's so as to minimize such an opportunity.

• Sheik Transformation (down B). As mentioned above, choosing to change into Sheik will cause any mines on the field to detonate after a short pause. The explosion will occur when Zelda cloaks herself within the white light. Also, both Zelda and Sheik can buffer any attack out of the transformation that ends while in the air with a directional input on the control stick and one of the attack buttons. This also works with either attack button and no control stick input. The c-stick will not work and the buffer will not work while grounded. A continuous attack that occurs when the transformation is finished makes the transformation unsafe (such as Mario's dair). You could also always choose to bait the Zelda for a whiff, counter, etc.

• Farore's Wind (up B). This is another one of Zelda's major tools as it aides in recovery and allows Zelda to close down on greater distances more quickly. Near the startup she has an attack that comes out and covers her whole body. She can be attacked offstage between the attack and before she actually disappears to teleport. Upon reentry another attack comes out that can be shielded and punished or even punished immediately with the right attack and spacing. This attack, or the Teleburn, can also be crouch canceled so you have four options to deal with it (crouch cancel, OoS, movement/spacing and punish, overpower/trade with character specific moves). During a grounded FW she can cancel it into a wave dash at any time after she disappears for the teleportation and before she reappears with the attack. She can play mind games with this technique but you can react and punish anywhere she could appear near enough to threaten you since she cancels with a wave dash. She can not use the cancel if she disappears for the teleport while in the air. I mention this because she can do the canceled version of FW if she starts the input in the air but lands on the ground before the actual teleportation takes place.

• Nayru's Love (neutral B). I feel this is the move that receives the most complaints. However, it is incredibly balanced. There are two versions of it that behave slightly differently from each other. The grounded version has intangibility, but it does not start until the fourth frame. The intangibility ends one frame after the attack begins. While this may seem very good it is a move that should only be used when you have a guaranteed hit. The end lag on it is huge. It is so huge that one can shield it, let go of shield, AND attack before Zelda can do anything about it. The aerial version is one of the main ways Zelda can start her combos as it can land cancel if Zelda lands from the air anytime after the attack portion of the move finishes. However, as of 3.0, it's combo ability has been a bit more limited due to the couple extra frames added before it can be acted out of. This means the land canceled version is no longer really a way of creating shield pressure as the opponent has just enough time to input an action before Zelda can follow up with another move. The aerial version's intangibility does not start until the fifth frame and it ends the same frame as the attack begins. Notice the tweak between the two versions for balancing. The aerial version can land cancel but when hit in the air at the end of the intangibility it will trade rather than overpower another attack. Furthermore, the attack only comes out horizontally close to Zelda's waist making it easy to hit her during the attack portion of Nayru's when approaching from the correct angles. This is less of an issue with the grounded version as usually the opponent is also grounded. Zelda players also have the option of not canceling the aerial version by continuing to hold the B button. While this means Zelda will have to deal with the usual ending hitlag, the reflective properties of Nayru's stay out longer. This could be especially useful against a Samus or Mewtwo that have learned the timing of your land cancel and time a missile or fully charged shot to hit you. By holding the B button, you can reflect the shot/projectile back at them potentially catching them by surprise. Using Nayru's at the end of hitstun causes Zelda to move downward while performing it. Some people complain about it interrupting their combos. Once again, the intangibility does not come out until frame 5 and thus it was not a true combo anyway if the move can be performed. Finally, if one notices there is a spot in his/her combo where the Zelda is repeatedly interrupting it with Nayru's why not simply bait it out? Even if the Zelda gets the land cancel (which is not too often in this situation) she is still wide open for a punish. She has another option called a Love Jump which is basically a hold over from Brawl. It is done by jumping right at the end of hitstun and immediately pressing B. This will send Zelda high into the air while performing Nayru's. Balance was applied to this option in two ways. First off, it uses up Zelda's double jump, second while it may cause her to temporarily escape harm it sends her high into the air. ZELDAS DO NOT WANT TO BE IN THE AIR ABOVE YOU. It is her weakest position if you are not recovering. She has very few options while above you. She is not a fast faller so it takes her awhile to get down. She can use teleport, but you can punish it both shortly after startup and at the end. As previously mentioned, Nayru's only attacks horizontally from around the middle of her character model so that won't work well. Her dair takes too long to come out to be in any way reliable. She could try to intercept you with a Din's but in this situation that takes ridiculous timing and placement. It could be just me but if you know all of this stuff about Nayru's it sounds pretty balanced to me, and I don't mean just in theory.

• F-Smash. Zelda mostly relies upon this move for spacing. It has good range and a disjointed hitbox. It has a slow start up and can be perfect shielded throughout the entire attack allowing for a punish on the end of it. It also has a fair amount of end lag so it can sometimes be punished on whiff. Interestingly, it does have below average hitlag in comparison to other F-Smashes in the game. The F-Smash is also useful for pushing opponents off of platforms or the edge of the stage if performed on a regular shield and properly spaced. You will want to make sure the final hitbox of the move lands for the greatest effect on the shield push. Little to no combo potential without aid of a Din's.

• D-Smash. This moves comes out fast and is designed to give Zelda space from opponents breathing down her neck. It is easily punishable on whiff. It also can be used for shield push scenarios. Little to no combo potential without aid of a Din's.

• Up-Smash. This is one of Zelda's moves that allows for a further combo depending on the character. It comes out pretty quickly but is easily punished on whiff or on shield. It also only attacks where her hand reaches in the air so characters have to be right on her/immediately next to her if they are going to be caught from the ground. It can also be ducked under by some characters. It can be SDI'd out of if the opponent is on the very tip of the hitbox right when it first connects.

• neutral A. Zelda's jab is a single jab that deals decent damage for a jab. It can be used to combo depending on the opponents position and their use of DI. This being said, it is also very slow for a jab. Although one of her moves with less endlag, it is still relatively unsafe on shield without very good spacing.

• f-tilt. This is one of Zelda's major set up moves for combos. However, it has to be properly spaced or it will knock the opponent away from her. The opponent can also mix up his/her DI so as to make it hard for her to follow up with her optimum combos. It will also only combo from low to medium percents. It can be used for shield push scenarios.

• d-tilt. d-tilt will cause the opponent to trip at higher percents but can be DI'd to make combo followups difficult potentially leading to a tech chase instead. It's dangerous to use at lower percents as your opponent can easily attack you right back with something much more fierce. It can poke under shields when small enough.

• u-tilt. This is used for KOing off the top of the stage and for blocking attacks from above where Up-Smash isn't desirable. Her arm has intangibility so it can block attacks from above that beat out Up-Smash. It can also hit directly in front of her and behind her. However, once started it takes awhile to finish so opponents from above have the option of baiting it out and then punishing accordingly.

• neutral air. This is a continuous attack that is mostly used as a more reliable followup out of her f-tilt than her other aerials as it is more easy to land. It has very limited combo followups, most of which are percentage and character dependent. It is very hard to DI out of it, but as followups are limited/non-existant it is pretty balanced. It is also a good option to use when tech chasing an opponent up on platforms.

• Lightning Kicks (fair & bair). This is perhaps what Zelda is most famous for. They have three types of hits which are a fusion of Brawl and Melee. First there is the flub. At lower percentages this allows the opponent to attack Zelda back. At higher percentages she may be able to follow up with another one. Second she has a melee sized hitbox that can potentially combo at lower percentages if the opponent really screws up their DI. Finally there is the critical lightning kick which has a much smaller hit box and does the most damage/knockback. These take quite a lot of precision and perfect spacing to land, and as all of Zelda's combos are heavily influenced by the opponent's DI it makes it that much harder to pull off. There are also slight differences in the damage between each corresponding version of fair & bair as well as knockback and angles which will not be covered here. Bair comes out slightly faster than fair. Here's how the types of kicks work. Any part of the hitbox that is within Zelda's body will result in the flub. The next available type of hit traveling away from the flub is the critical lightning kick. It is approximately right at the toe and must make contact perfectly right on the first frame it comes out. Finally, the regular lightning kick extends the furthest away past the critical lightning kick sweet spot. From a strategy stand point, this means at lower percents it is probably better to space for the regular kick as if you go in for the critical and get too close the flub will result. This means you can immediately be punished. Flubs become more useful at higher percents as you can chain them together and then finish with the critical lightning kick.

• Uair. This move has a nice disjointed hitbox but takes a bit to start up and has a lot of end lag. It can be baited and punished without great difficulty. This move can also be chained together a couple times depending on the character and whether or not it hits with its sweet spot.

• Dair. Dair is a meteor smash that is only reliably used on opponents who are recovering or punished during some action such as a roll. It also uses a sweet/sour spot system. As with many meteors it has a slower start up and long end lag. Even when recovering, the Zelda has to make a pretty hard read to land it if the character as any sort of recovery game. Even just varying the falling speed is likely enough to throw her off.

• grabs/throws. NONE* of Zelda's throws lead to a guaranteed combo if the opponent DIs properly (barring the use of Din's). Her grabs do have good range and can reach very slightly behind her, but they are very slow. Her throw that has the best combo potential, d-throw, is the slowest of all of them and can easily be DI'd on reaction. If you are really good with reaction time you can DI all of them on reaction. B-throw is a kill throw but again with DI you potentially save that stock for quite awhile. It is a great setup for Zelda's Din's game. *There are actually a few exceptions to this statement such as up-throw on the spacies.

• taunts. Both her side taunt and up taunt have hitboxes but as you can imagine that being taunts they have a very late start up and extremely limited uses. Watch out for the flame and sparkles lol (I consider it mostly an easter egg).

I have now discussed Zelda's entire move set including many of her nuances, and how to get around them. As you can see, she is far from OP but does have some great tools. OP implies that a character has tools that are virtually impossible to deal with consistently on a human level and that the rest of the cast lacks a means to deal with creating an unfair advantage. This simply does not hold true in any way for Zelda. She is not a rush down character but rather a trap character that punishes very hard. Plus since she punishes so hard, she is purposely slower (running speed, wave dash, start up & end lag, fall speed) so that she has way less opportunities in order to do so. This allows the opponent to get away with far more against her than many of the rest of the cast. She is floaty making her hard to combo so she gets more than just one chance before she loses a stock in most cases. Zelda players have to be very efficient with their movement, at controlling space, and not missing opportunities to punish as they are more limited. In this way she requires a lot of skill to master. It's in a different form from say Fox which is more about applying ridiculous amounts of pressure and overwhelming your opponent with sheer speed magnified through tech skill. This requires much skill also of course, but it is simply different. There's that diversity I mentioned much earlier. To me, Zelda adds another way to play the game which makes Project M far more interesting. This also stresses LEARNING matchups which only serve to further strengthen the core of the game. Heck I just took care of most of the knowledge component for one character for you. Now you just have to learn the timings and the situations.

Lastly I want to thank all the developers of the PMBR for making another character viable at a competitive level. Melee was great, but the main problem was that the entire game was dominated by arguably four to five characters at most which isn't so good for a game that has 25/26 characters. With Project M we have an even larger roster now. I think you have a great character on your hands, and that simply time is needed before any major buff/nerfs would need to be considered. Keep up the good work!

 

[KingDozie]

stop lying zelda is like fox please nerf

 

[Zerudahime]

This thread is amazing.
your knowledge of the character is absolutely spot-on, and this will serve as a wonderful information dump for people.
Great job WL.

 

[Element V]

Thumbs up. Agreed.

 

[Red(SP)]

stop lying zelda is like fox please nerf

Get out, Carl. The real men are talking.

There are certainly things in this game that could threaten the initial balance. Ike in 2.1 for example was quoted by metroid 'a very shallow' character. You could easily pick him up and learn some of his tricks and maintain a high success rate. This proved true because of the amount of Ike wins and ratios during the entire release of 2.1. Nearly everyone and your mother had a pocket Ike. But people still considered him worse than Fox because even he had more plausable flaws that could be picked apart piece by piece by an analytical player. Big House 2's Winner Finals and Grand Finals examplified the unfamiliarity of the match up for a Melee vet and while that's no real excuse, the tournament results and the overall responses from the community showed otherwise. I can guarentee metroid did feel like the community was against him for simply maining the character, but it is what it is. Lucario in 2.1 received a similar change, not for the reasons provided here but simply due to the fact that he's was pretty bnb like Ike was back in the day. In theory, he had a so-so design while it remained to have its own originality, it wasn't very 'smash-like' at all. Certain factors from the moveset invalidated game mechanics (i.e. punishing/shielding) and there were very exploitable. That's not to say that there are still characters in this game with potentially subjective design choices, but I feel it should be up to the community to take what's given and experiment. So Zhime places well at a few tournaments with a character that rarely anyone sees perform THAT well. Why target Zelda? Do you know how many Brawl characters are in this game? That's an entire list and assortment of new match ups to learn. I feel that the entire point of redesigning this one character for her overall success in tournaments for not knowing the match up is absurd.

Furthermore, if the PMBR is capable of passing something like this to actually becoming a thing (wow, go figure they made 2.5 Sonic... gasp), they're more than likely capable of completely redesigning a character where it isn't exactly necessary, while there are actually characters in this game with untapped potential that have yet to be SEEN. Thus, they are ignored with no sort of push, urge, or even decency to acknowledge to the public of those people who main those characters that there's some sort of discussion going on about it.

But that's what a Back Room is supposed to do, right? I've been down the whole ordeal before, so there's no intentional offense to anyone in a Back Room that happens to scroll down and read this baloney.

I'm simply throwing in my two cents that I'm against the entire idealism that Zelda should need a redesign based on one individuals performance whereas there's nothing about the character that should serve an entire design. The cases explained earlier in my wall should be relevant enough to this discussion and should serve the basis of my opinion.

 

[ShadowGanon]

I am guessing most of the gripes people have with Zelda concern her Din's Fire, Nayru's Love, and Farore's Wind so you may want to jump to those sections if you feel so inclined.

The only thing I gripe about is the fact that Zelda's f-air and b-air are a bit to powerful. lol. It's not THAT bad. But, it's the only thing that I feel the PMBR need to tweak. If they could turn the knockback down like 1/2 a notch, that would be great. But other than that, I totally agree with you. Zelda is very balanced.

Edit: I take this back. Zelda is pretty balanced.

 

[Zerudahime]

The only thing I gripe about is the fact that Zelda's f-air and b-air are a bit to powerful. lol. It's not THAT bad. But, it's the only thing that I feel the PMBR need to tweak. If they could turn the knockback down like 1/2 a notch, that would be great. But other than that, I totally agree with you. Zelda is very balanced.

the strongest sweetspot on bair/fair (22% dmg critical heel) is the size of rest and must be landed frame 1.
Why should someone with that amount of skill NOT get rewarded for landing a kick with that much precision?
Melee kick system is still superior to the current version in every single way in terms of power and ease.

 

[ShadowGanon]

the strongest sweetspot on bair/fair (22% dmg critical heel) is the size of rest and must be landed frame 1.
Why should someone with that amount of skill NOT get rewarded for landing a kick with that much precision?
Melee kick system is still superior to the current version in every single way in terms of power and ease.

The hit-box might be the size of the rest, but it's on a limb, so it's a bit easier to hit with. It just seems that I get hit by it a lot. And it hurts. But that could just mean that I need to stop setting myself up for a Zelda far/bair in the face. I do see your point, though.

 

[Reshi123]

As going by what Red said, reworks are there for a cause. If the character you are facing is beating the ever living crap out of you, then you need to adjust against that play style.

As we know, Zelda is know for her set ups and her keep away game. If you just allow her to play that game, then it would be a losing battle. That is where adjustments happen, you need to find a weakness of that player and seize it. Playing as Ganon had taught me that and due to it, some matching like Samus and Zelda don't seem to be as frustrating as it is.

However, that saying cannot justify on some terms. If the character is just plan stupid and super easy to use just to win a game ie. 2.1 Ike and Lucario or 2.5 Sonic, then a nerf was in order because of not being able to adjust to the situation.

 

[KingDozie]

zelda is aight you just need to learn the matchup. Just that pm has been here for a while and everything is a gimmick if its not in melee.

 

[Twin_A]

Wow this was a great read.

There are several characters in P:M that I feel need a slight tweaking (be it buff or nerf), but I would agree that Zelda is not among them. She is very strong but also has just enough openings that can be exploited by players who are familiar with her movesets. She has fantastic tools and a good learning curve so that it also shows when you've actually put in work with her. And above all else she is fun. That fact alone will draw people to her.

Great job learning your character to such an extent. It will be fun playing you again :D

 

[WhiteLightnin]

Wow this thread is taking off like wildfire. Thank you so much for everyone who has offered input so far. I just thought of something important I realized should be included within the Din's section so expect an edit soon. Also looking forward to playing you again too Twin_A!


Okay so the edit to the Din's section has been added. It has added the following:

"The mine portion of Din's can be absorbed by Ness and Lucas but the explosion can NOT be absorbed. I feel it is a little bit easier to absorb with Lucas as his version of absorption extends in front of him rather than around his body. With Ness you either have to space it really well or cause some form of momentum that will carry you through the Din's with your absorption shield activated before hand. Also, Zelda is extremely vulnerable while placing using Din's. The only way she can hit you is by moving the mine and placing it in your path if you are approaching her and with a series of jumps or a quick roll you should be able to get to her and punish before she has time to react. This is assuming you are starting from a close to close-medium range if you have no form of projectile. Even after placing the mine she still suffers from some cool down time that you can use to your advantage. However, most experienced Zelda's are well aware of this fact so they will likely be pretty smart about their situational use of Din's so as to minimize such an opportunity."

I have also added that in addition to the mines getting bigger the longer they travel, the speed they move is also increased.

 

[Pika_thunder]

The only thing I gripe about is the fact that Zelda's f-air and b-air are a bit to powerful. lol. It's not THAT bad. But, it's the only thing that I feel the PMBR need to tweak. If they could turn the knockback down like 1/2 a notch, that would be great. But other than that, I totally agree with you. Zelda is very balanced.

Tone down? Really? How about buff because they are so hard to land perfectly. Please try to sweetspot those kicks on a moving opponent and try to say the need a nerf. LOL!

 

[ShadowGanon]

Tone down? Really? How about buff because they are so hard to land perfectly. Please try to sweetspot those kicks on a moving opponent and try to say the need a nerf. LOL!

I have tried. I don't find it too hard. But I don't want to start an argument. I just wanted to state my two cents. So lets just leave it at that.

Hey, ZerudaHime, were you the one that designed PM Zelda? If so, you nailed it.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

I have tried. I don't find it too hard. But I don't want to start an argument. I just wanted to state my two cents. So lets just leave it at that.

Hey, ZerudaHime, were you the one that designed PM Zelda? If so, you nailed it.

ShadowGanon and Pika_thunder I feel you both make excellent points. The critical lightning kicks are relatively difficult to land within the neutral game, but it can be made a lot easier when used within a combo such as leading with f-tilt or UpSmash on some characters. I believe that it is for this reason that the PMBR has already slightly tweaked/reduced both critical lightning kicks with the release of 3.0. Due to a combination of the opponent's DI, and the precision required to land it it is still a challenging feat to absolutely nail down. DIing the kicks up and towards Zelda, Up, or between the two depending on your location on the stage will really help you last awhile longer. Whatever you do, don't DI away and down lol unless you are at a very low percentage and want to get to the ground faster. A big thank you to both of you for sharing your opinions!!!

 

[Zerudahime]

Ryokoyaksa and myself designed/playtested her up until this point Shadowganon, and thanks! =D

 

[Deleted member]

And above all else she is fun. That fact alone will draw people to her.

As much as we may enjoy playing her, there is no denying that there are a large number of people who don't like her at all. The sad truth is that there aren't really many people who are drawn to her.

At this point, anybody who believes that Zelda needs to change because she is "overpowered" simply needs to fight against her more often. Zelda is and has always been great at taking advantage of inexperience because of how hard she punishes mistakes. Inexperienced players thinking she is OP is NOT the reason she would need to change. I mean, come on, these are the same people who whine about Nayru's Love, as if a defensive character shouldn't have a good defensive move (a move that is very punishable btw).
The fact that not a lot of people find her design enjoyable is also NOT a reason she should change either. She adds a different kind of play-style, and it fits her character. With a cast this large, we need diversity. The people who complain about her not being "fun" most likely wouldn't be satisfied until she either A) completely ditched her defensive playstyle altogether or B) was still a defensive character, but was so ineffective at it that she became a non-threat. Yes, she is frustrating to fight against, but she needs to be!

I, however, am worried about her long-term viability, and this is the reason why I wonder whether or not she should receive some changes. She has poor movement in a game that is all about movement, she has many moves that are situationally useful, her combo ability is limited compared to other characters, she has a defensive playstyle but poor defensive attributes (tall, light, floaty), and while she can destroy somebody who isn't familiar with her, by the same token, she suffers a lot when people learn how to play the matchup, probably more so than other characters. I'm unsure of whether or not the current Zelda can stand the test of time since people will only get better at avoiding her traps and not playing into her defensive game, and that's all she has since she can't take initiative by going offensive.


Anyway, this thread is certainly spot-on with its descriptions of Zelda's moves and how to deal with her as an opponent. Very useful info. Thanks for this!

 

[tw1n]

This is a fantastic read. Thank you for the advice. I have not experimented with Zelda yet, but now I will just to see how well I enjoy playing as her.

I will see you at the tournament on Saturday. Best of luck

 

[Sweet™]

Zelda is right about where she needs to be.

PMBR needs to just leave **** alone. They're ruining the game they've created. P:M is losing more fans than gaining because every month the meta game changes. It's stupid. The region I'm from HATES the game for this reason, and it's understandable. No one should dedicate time and effort to a character just to have it constantly change.

Having 3.0 released a month before Apex, and making that the played version was ****ing STUPID in my opinion. A month is not nearly enough time to completely change your playstyle if your character was ****ing destroyed. I mean Jesus Christ, come on, that's why you have playtesters. Building and destroying characters CONSTANTLY ruins the tournament scene for this game, and it's why fewer and fewer people like it every time a number is added after the versions decimal point.

 

[Renth]

I asked wizzrobe why he quit PM he said basically. He created the meta game for sonic two or three times and they kept ruining his character so he doesn't want to play a game where every time he tries to play they destroy it.

 

[Zerudahime]

To be fair, sonic did have glaring issues in his design and playstyle that made him virtually unbeatable..that is a different story all together.
As far as Zelda is concerned, she is in a very great position like sweet said, and she just needs to stay the way she is for now and let people
figure her out a bit more and learn what she can actually do.

Even the commentators of matches are finding out new things that she can do still at this point and dont even know what to say or think.
Their statements are almost purely based on first-time reaction, sure it can be jaring to see such a crappy melee vet do well because she was made to be played in a very complex manner while still retaining her old feel/form. Zelda is excellent when in the right hands. She needs to be preserved more than anything in my opinion. That is how we will know whether or not she will stand the test of time and the development of the game.

#speakingthetruth

 

[KingDozie]

Its just that people dont take time to understand a charc like zelda. Project M isnt played as long as melee have been 12-13 years so everything is just a big gimmick to players if they cant beat it. I feel like if people actually take the time to learn zelda matchup it would be different. Like now people are still complaining about fox but melee has been out for a long time get over it and learn the matchup.

 

[Kit Cal-N]

Honestly, I'd like an entire fighting game based heavily on Zelda/Snake/Ivysaur playstyle. Focus on movement and setup.

 

[KingDozie]

Honestly, I'd like an entire fighting game based heavily on Zelda/Snake/Ivysaur playstyle. Focus on movement and setup.

Dude people see that as a lame way to play because theyre mostly projectile heavy. People just want everything to be more aggro playstyle like fox.

 

[BJN39]

Honestly, I'd like an entire fighting game based heavily on Zelda/Snake/Ivysaur playstyle. Focus on movement and setup.

That... kinda sounds a bit like Brawl... LOL.

As much as we may enjoy playing her, there is no denying that there are a large number of people who don't like her at all. The sad truth is that there aren't really many people who are drawn to her.

At this point, anybody who believes that Zelda needs to change because she is "overpowered" simply needs to fight against her more often. Zelda is and has always been great at taking advantage of inexperience because of how hard she punishes mistakes. Inexperienced players thinking she is OP is NOT the reason she would need to change. I mean, come on, these are the same people who whine about Nayru's Love, as if a defensive character shouldn't have a good defensive move (a move that is very punishable btw).
The fact that not a lot of people find her design enjoyable is also NOT a reason she should change either. She adds a different kind of play-style, and it fits her character. With a cast this large, we need diversity. The people who complain about her not being "fun" most likely wouldn't be satisfied until she either A) completely ditched her defensive playstyle altogether or B) was still a defensive character, but was so ineffective at it that she became a non-threat. Yes, she is frustrating to fight against, but she needs to be!

I, however, am worried about her long-term viability, and this is the reason why I wonder whether or not she should receive some changes. She has poor movement in a game that is all about movement, she has many moves that are situationally useful, her combo ability is limited compared to other characters, she has a defensive playstyle but poor defensive attributes (tall, light, floaty), and while she can destroy somebody who isn't familiar with her, by the same token, she suffers a lot when people learn how to play the matchup, probably more so than other characters. I'm unsure of whether or not the current Zelda can stand the test of time since people will only get better at avoiding her traps and not playing into her defensive game, and that's all she has since she can't take initiative by going offensive.


Anyway, this thread is certainly spot-on with its descriptions of Zelda's moves and how to deal with her as an opponent. Very useful info. Thanks for this!

I agree, Zelda's design is fine, no needs for toning down, just some MU experience is needed.

But on that same note, what will happen when people learn the MU? Like, learn it. What will happen to Zelda? Will she be fine? Or will she fall through the cracks... So to speak. Because a LOT of people believe she will become unviable once people fully get/learn the Zelda MU.



Also, @ WhiteLightnin , since this thread is also "MU learning" is it fine if I use this thread to ask people what they think of certain MU numbers for that idea I talked about on the Zelda social a while back? Then we can even discuss what the MUs instead of me just asking for the ratio opinions from everyone.

 

[RolexPachinko]

Hey guys, this is Rolex here and i just wanna add my 2 cents in and say that in my opinion zelda is a very well developed character that is definitely not overpowered. I have played against some of the best zeldas (salem in 3 tournament sets and zhime in multiple friendlys at apex) and with that i can safely say that yes zelda is a good character, but no she is not overpowered.

If she is nerfed it will only further the stereotype that if you practice, master, and perform well with a character in pm it will undoubtedly be nerfed for your efforts.....also tranq sucks.

 

[KingDozie]

Hey guys, this is Rolex here and i just wanna add my 2 cents in and say that in my opinion zelda is a very well developed character that is definitely not overpowered. I have played against some of the best zeldas (salem in 3 tournament sets and zhime in multiple friendlys at apex) and with that i can safely say that yes zelda is a good character, but no she is not overpowered.

If she is nerfed it will only further the stereotype that if you practice, master, and perform well with a character in pm it will undoubtedly be nerfed for your efforts.....also tranq sucks.

Your not rolex stop lying

 

[BJN39]

@Whitelighnin; I just remembered something about the "fsmash" part, for a Forward smash, it actually has below average endlag compared to other forward smashes (Besides YOU MK > _ > )

Also, random thing while I was testing moves for combos yesterday, Ftilt, and Utilt can be DI'ed REALLY far away, like, un-comboable. Of course this was with a Lv9 Fox CPU in practice... But dang, CPU Lv9s are just broken at DI.

On another note though, everyone should use Jab in the spacie MU a LOT. I tested it at low through mid % with just about every move, and some combo could be made with it until 51% where Fox will be knocked down by Jab.

As someone who played/plays a LOT of brawl and melee, one thing I can never stop thanking the PMBR/Ryoko for doing is making her multi-hits connect correctly. It makes her (and P:M) seem more polished. I always use P:M as an example to non-P:M zeldas that multi-hit hoves CAN be useful.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

That... kinda sounds a bit like Brawl... LOL.




I agree, Zelda's design is fine, no needs for toning down, just some MU experience is needed.

But on that same note, what will happen when people learn the MU? Like, learn it. What will happen to Zelda? Will she be fine? Or will she fall through the cracks... So to speak. Because a LOT of people believe she will become unviable once people fully get/learn the Zelda MU.



Also, @ WhiteLightnin , since this thread is also "MU learning" is it fine if I use this thread to ask people what they think of certain MU numbers for that idea I talked about on the Zelda social a while back? Then we can even discuss what the MUs instead of me just asking for the ratio opinions from everyone.

Hey I saw you created another thread about the MUs. Does this mean that you decided it would be better in a separate thread? Sorry it took me so long to reply. I was at work all day. lol Also thanks for the info on F-Smash. I'll include the info with an edit.

She certainly has the best chance of all the current iterations of Zelda to stand the test of time. That, however, is one of my hopes for this thread. By putting this information out there, it will hopefully accelerate the process and create the need for all of us Zelda players to adapt. By letting the PMBR know that many of us feel she is currently well balanced, hopefully they will leave her for awhile without any major tweaks so we can test if that is indeed the case.

 

[BJN39]

Yeah, I thought it would be less messy if the threads were separate.

Also I agree with what you say, if Zelda IS gonna be unviable once people learn the MU as they say, I wanna see it happen, and I'll stick with her the entire way. <3

Honestly, no character interests me nearly as much as Zelda does.

 

[BlinkIV]

What's up, Blink here (Formerly known as SaiXeven). I'll toss my opinion here as well on Zelda. From playing Zelda mains, and watching as well. I see absolutely 0 problem with her. Especially at APEX, watching Salem play Zelda prepped me to fight against the best Zelda, Zhime.I believe she should just be left how she is, she's not considered a big problem right now. She seems well balanced, has a good amount of "tricks" up her sleeve, good options. Real solid character imo.

 

[jtm94]

Thread is very well put together, so good job on that.

I've been playing Zelda for 7 months now and she is definitely my best character out of skill. At first I used to win with what seemed like gimmicks, and lots of matchup unfamiliarity, but after playing the same people for a few months I often find myself having to change my playstyle between aggro and defensive in order to switch things up. If Zelda was brokenly good then I would be able to beat people better than me with her moveset alone, but that is most definitely not the case, and I still feel that I work for my wins.

This is quoted from the tier list speculation thread:

it's not that PM is easier, it's that bull****ting is easier. melee in its early days had just about the same amount of gimmicks, but 2014 is explicitly pretty far away from the early days. new characters to play + new, relatively inexperienced players who didn't touch much of melee or brawl = new ways to bull****. things that aren't safe are always safe if you don't know how to punish them, after all

I think that this sums up A HELL OF A LOT of my feelings. I see people pick up new characters, ones that are deemed bad, but then they will use a simple tactic and due to MU inexperience it makes a few aspects of the character glaringly good, ONLY BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO PUNISH THEM.

I deal with it a fair amount whether it be friends, online, or casuals with other people who play. I'll play a few decent sets, but after Zelda is out for a game, some of the griping comes in about how "Nayru's Love is TOO GOOD," or her kicks are "TOO STRONG." I have played against people who have effectively picked Zelda apart to the point where I cannot even fathom how someone would call her broken. If a character can be played against that effectively, then I am inclined to believe she is nowhere as good as is led on. IT is possible to counter play of course, but playing the same character completely differently than how you have been playing them the past half year is quite difficult and almost the equivalent of changing their meta entirely.

I went through phases of being convinced she was garbage, then doing well and being convinced she was too good, and now I'm very content with how she is and time is the only thing that will enlighten us on her viability. IF it comes to the point where she is not effective due to MU experience then she may need tweaked, but if it is indeed possible to play her in a way that can negate that, she's fine.

She's basically a slow Captain Falcon combined with Snake. She has an amazing KO move and bad approaches, plus she has various setups, traps, and control options. I like her. I just can't complain enough about someone who jumps at me, whiffs an attack, gets Zelda kicked, and will say it's too easy to land when they walked RIGHT INTO IT.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

Thread is very well put together, so good job on that.

I've been playing Zelda for 7 months now and she is definitely my best character out of skill. At first I used to win with what seemed like gimmicks, and lots of matchup unfamiliarity, but after playing the same people for a few months I often find myself having to change my playstyle between aggro and defensive in order to switch things up. If Zelda was brokenly good then I would be able to beat people better than me with her moveset alone, but that is most definitely not the case, and I still feel that I work for my wins.

This is quoted from the tier list speculation thread:


I think that this sums up A HELL OF A LOT of my feelings. I see people pick up new characters, ones that are deemed bad, but then they will use a simple tactic and due to MU inexperience it makes a few aspects of the character glaringly good, ONLY BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO PUNISH THEM.

I deal with it a fair amount whether it be friends, online, or casuals with other people who play. I'll play a few decent sets, but after Zelda is out for a game, some of the griping comes in about how "Nayru's Love is TOO GOOD," or her kicks are "TOO STRONG." I have played against people who have effectively picked Zelda apart to the point where I cannot even fathom how someone would call her broken. If a character can be played against that effectively, then I am inclined to believe she is nowhere as good as is led on. IT is possible to counter play of course, but playing the same character completely differently than how you have been playing them the past half year is quite difficult and almost the equivalent of changing their meta entirely.

I went through phases of being convinced she was garbage, then doing well and being convinced she was too good, and now I'm very content with how she is and time is the only thing that will enlighten us on her viability. IF it comes to the point where she is not effective due to MU experience then she may need tweaked, but if it is indeed possible to play her in a way that can negate that, she's fine.

She's basically a slow Captain Falcon combined with Snake. She has an amazing KO move and bad approaches, plus she has various setups, traps, and control options. I like her. I just can't complain enough about someone who jumps at me, whiffs an attack, gets Zelda kicked, and will say it's too easy to land when they walked RIGHT INTO IT.

It's interesting to see that there is a pretty unanimous consensus among Zelda mains and community alike that have posted so far that they feel Zelda for at least the time being is well balanced but that we just need more time to know. It's nice to see such unification. Thanks for your input!

 

[Zerudahime]

Just a quick video that explains brawl zelda.
Its interesting to see how much of this still holds true to Zelda's melee/brawl hybrid style in PM.
However, since her moveset got some help in specific areas, she has become a real force.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSvMblnPNVs

 

[WhiteLightnin]

Just edited the thread to include information about shield push options for ledges and platforms for F Smash, D Smash, and f-tilt. Also, the Nayru's Love section now has info regarding extended reflective properties as a mixup from land canceling the aerial version.

 

[Rizner]

Well written post, thanks for this.

The only suggestion I'd say is if you have the time/resources, you could add in spoilers to show where hitboxes of things are or highlight what you're saying -- would help both Zeldas and those fighting against to know where the actual spacing is for the 3 different spots on the kick, or demonstrate where that middle-section of a hitbox nayru's is at. That and maybe list what Zelda could do as a follow up to a landed downtilt.

But yeah, good very post.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

Well written post, thanks for this.

The only suggestion I'd say is if you have the time/resources, you could add in spoilers to show where hitboxes of things are or highlight what you're saying -- would help both Zeldas and those fighting against to know where the actual spacing is for the 3 different spots on the kick, or demonstrate where that middle-section of a hitbox nayru's is at. That and maybe list what Zelda could do as a follow up to a landed downtilt.

But yeah, good very post.

Thanks for the input Rizner! I'm glad you enjoyed it. Unfortunately, I don't currently have the resources to display character models to show the hitboxes. Perhaps somebody could help me with this? However, I can and will add more detail describing the spacing to the lightning kicks and further information in regards to d-tilt. Thanks again!

 

[otheusrex]

It is really good to see so many different people here on this thread! I'm a fellow zelda main and I'd like to get my 2 cents in as well. Zelda's current design is very smart and there's nothing unbalanced or bad about it, but I feel her design isn't quite perfect yet. Here's how I see Zelda's current design.

Passive Aggressive Fortress: A lot of get the f**k off moves that are either quick and high knockback (dsmash, upsmash, nayru's love, farore's wind hitboxes, nair) or disjointed and high knockback (fsmash, utilt, ftilt at high %, fair, bair, uair). All these gtfo moves make Zelda risky to approach, but on the flip side, because of her poor mobility, the high kb of these attacks make it difficult for her to string hits together in order to finish with a kill move. She does have a few reliable combo starters ( ftilt, land canceled nayru, upsmash, dtilt, jab, nair on a crouch canceling opponent) but at kill percentages, these attacks either deal too much kb to connect with a kill move or, in the case of dtilt and nair on cc, they are so highly situational that they become unreliable setups. The magic link between her gtfo moves and her kill moves is Dins fire. With good placement and skillful manipulation of the opponent, you combo reliably into a kill move using the high kb of dins fire mines. The gtfo moves that are so lousy on their own for stringing hits together, give you the space you need to put out dins fire mines safely, or they allow you to send your opponent towards din's fire mines that are already out. This is 80% of her functionality imo, the rest revolves around using what movement options she does have (farore's wind wavedashing, mixing up land canceled nayrus with wavebounced ones) to either bait a mistake from your opponent or reset yourself to neutral.

When you look at it this way, it's easy to see that her design is very sound from all angles. She has a way to win, you can understand what she should be doing in every situation, and her weaknesses make sense with her abilities. HOWEVER, I don't feel her moveset functions quite as well as it is supposed to in order to accomplish it's intended design. Zelda's problem is that the strengths of her moves are TOO counterbalanced with weaknesses. To elevate a character with poor basic capabilities (mobility, survivability, ect..) you can do two things 1) improve her basic capabilities or 2) make her moves good enough to outweigh these weaknesses. Either of these work. I feel her current design is mostly no 2. Thus, if her moves have too many weaknesses, or are too situational, then they defeat the purpose of their design; I'll illustrate using an imaginary measurement called Utility Points.

Weak Capability 1) poor approach options [A] = -1 Utility Points for zelda

Solution 1) Din's Fire mines
Benefits): provides safe zones for approach (B)= +1

up to three mines for controlling space [C]= +1
explosion widens coverage briefly [D]= +.5 ​

Limitations): situational usage [E]= -.5

shieldable on hit placeage [F]= -.25
disappears on clank [G]= -.25
unsafe start up [H]= -.5
costly in frames to renew timer (I)= -.25
disappears after 3 seconds [J]= -.25
​

Solution 1 Grand total) A+B+C+D+E+F+G+H+I+J= -.5 Utility Points​

Explanation) When examining Din's Fire's capabilities as an approach tool by itself, it seems balance but still good. The strength of it's positives outweigh the limitations by +.5, meaning that it has a reliably beneficial utility. However, when you factor in that we are starting from -1, then we end up with -.5 Utility points, which means that for providing approach options, Din's Fire is .5 UPs less useful than it should be to bring her to an even 0

Obviously, this is a highly subjective means of evaluating moves, but the point is clear. We can debate the values of all the variables in equations like these, but you can at least see how a move can be balanced between advantages and disadvantages but still not be good enough to aid the character how it should. It would be ridiculous for me to make an equation for every move, but if I did, I would wager that most of her moves would end up with zeros, with a few positive UPs and a few more negatives.

Making her moves even better, while warranted in my opinion, does create complications. A less laggy, fixed kb Land Canceled nayru's love would be all but broken against some characters, while against others it wouldn't be particularly helpful. Also, improving only a few moves in order to solve certain weaknesses is like putting most of her eggs in one basket; it will well work until you drop the basket, and then kiss your omelette good-bye.

I feel that Zelda's design, while completely functional and fair, could use a little rebalancing towards improving her basic capabilities. She could afford to lose a little bit of the massive hitstun, high damage, high knockback, or inescapable mutlihit attack chaining if she could land attacks more easily, or maybe had more versatile and reliable set ups for kill moves. I think only a little bit of 'normalizing' towards a more typical smash characters capablities would go a long way to improving her design without making her unrecognizable.

 

[jtm94]

I do not know how to feel about your method, but I agree with your synopsis that she needs some better movement.

I do not know how much strength I would give up, but I would cast aside some moves entirely to make up for it.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

I've been using PM Zelda for pretty much the entirety of my PM career (so around 8 months).
I personally don't like how almost every attack she has can almost effortlessly follow up into Lightning Kick, but that's just me.
I feel like the only thing that REALLY needs to be toned down is Nayru's Love.
It can be spammed to hell in several situations, and it almost completely invalidates match-ups against characters like Samus and Link.
Overall, I think it's way too safe.