Data Zelda’s Smash Ultimate Moveset /Move Viability Discussion: Phantom Slash = Huge Neutral Buff

[「 Derk 」]

To add on to that, do we know what frame we first get a sword with phantom? Basically how fast can we play the spacing game vs sword characters. That's one of the very few things we lost from the original phantom in smash 4 since it was always a completed phantom even at 0 charge.

 

[Downshift]

I keep hearing that Zelda is faster in this game, but like people have said... so is everyone else.

As far as Zelda's movement speed rankings (out of 78):
Run Speed: 70th
Walk Speed: 63rd
Air Speed: 37th
Fall Speed: 62nd

The floaty fall speed is to be expected, but she looks to be just a slow on the ground as she was in previous games. That was one of her main issues in Smash 4, and it looks like she still won't be moving around like Palutena.
She was ranked 24th in air speed in Smash 4 so that's not much of a buff either. In fact... 24th of 58 = 41%, 37th of 78 = 47%. So she's actually a bit slower in the air compared to the rest of the cast.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Something interesting to note:

If you have a phantom full charged, you can actually detonate it early by pressing down B again. So you can mix up your opponent by getting them use to the normal delay the move has on its own, and then fully charge a phantom, jump/jab/shield run/anything, and then bust.

However, you are stuck in the little animation she does while casting. She points her finger out. You cannot charge a phantom and then attack with Zelda and bust it early at the same time. That's important. If you want to attack in tandem, you have to wait for it to go off on it's own.

I will be answering your questions once I get home

Oh, interesting, I want to try things like full charge / dair / early release now! It may be risky though if Zelda is stuck too long in this animation.

I keep hearing that Zelda is faster in this game, but like people have said... so is everyone else.

As far as Zelda's movement speed rankings (out of 78):
Run Speed: 70th
Walk Speed: 63rd
Air Speed: 37th
Fall Speed: 62nd

The floaty fall speed is to be expected, but she looks to be just a slow on the ground as she was in previous games. That was one of her main issues in Smash 4, and it looks like she still won't be moving around like Palutena.
She was ranked 24th in air speed in Smash 4 so that's not much of a buff either. In fact... 24th of 58 = 41%, 37th of 78 = 47%. So she's actually a bit slower in the air compared to the rest of the cast.

I may be wrong, but what's important is not that she is faster than the others (although that would indeed be nice) but simply being faster than before. It's the same thing as for the landing lags: sure, other characters got better landing lags too, but what's more important: safe moves being safer, or risky moves becoming safe (I've seen Fair into shield followed by Jab and it seemed to apply some pressure)? Also, it seems that Zelda's initial dash speed is better than her run speed, so we probably want to abuse that.

Again, I may be wrong and I'm sure people will be able to answer better than me.

 

[Downshift]

When I think back to my tough Zelda matchups against fast and rushdown characters, the issue was that she just couldn't get to the opponent fast enough to punish, whereas Mewtwo, Lucina or even Samus could have in that same situation.
So I think you're right that it's not Zelda's dash speed vs others' dash speed, it's more like her dash being able to compete with hitstun, whiffed attack endlag and being able *actually* tech chase people.
I hope you're right about her initial dash speed, since that'll be relevant most often to rush in and punish.

 

[「 Derk 」]

Basically what Erotic&Heretic said.

Yes, every character is faster and that seems to be what people focus on most. Because everyone changed then it doesn't really change much right? Wrong. The characters that had stupidly busted frame data received very little from this (some were nerfed even) because they were already safe on shield while everyone else is now on a similar playing field. They may be a little slower still, but just to give an example... Zelda's jab went from frame 11 to frame 4. That's an insane speed buff. Nearly 2/3 of the frames were cut off and it even kills now! A lot of the high tiers either stayed the same or received nerfs to what made them busted. Luigi's cyclone for example. Nerfed. Into. Oblivion... While other characters were buffed to the moon and back. Honestly, almost every single one of Zelda's moves was buffed via either frame data or quality of life changes. Din's Fire is faster and no more free fall, Farore's Wind is slightly faster and has drift finally, Phantom is completely revamped, etc...

Making Sheik's fair have slightly less end lag does literally nothing for her. It was already safe on shield if spaced right and she could fair string you across the stage before the change happened. However, shaving a ton of end lag off of Zelda's aerials is a massive change. The changes were meant as an equalizer more than anything. Universal jump and faster frame data across the board. Characters that already had those things change very little. The fat hippos that didn't received a lot, and Zelda happened to be one of those hippos lol

 

[Aussie1024]

Basically what Erotic&Heretic said.

Yes, every character is faster and that seems to be what people focus on most. Because everyone changed then it doesn't really change much right? Wrong. The characters that had stupidly busted frame data received very little from this (some were nerfed even) because they were already safe on shield while everyone else is now on a similar playing field. They may be a little slower still, but just to give an example... Zelda's jab went from frame 11 to frame 4. That's an insane speed buff. Nearly 2/3 of the frames were cut off and it even kills now! A lot of the high tiers either stayed the same or received nerfs to what made them busted. Luigi's cyclone for example. Nerfed. Into. Oblivion... While other characters were buffed to the moon and back. Honestly, almost every single one of Zelda's moves was buffed via either frame data or quality of life changes. Din's Fire is faster and no more free fall, Farore's Wind is slightly faster and has drift finally, Phantom is completely revamped, etc...

Making Sheik's fair have slightly less end lag does literally nothing for her. It was already safe on shield if spaced right and she could fair string you across the stage before the change happened. However, shaving a ton of end lag off of Zelda's aerials is a massive change. The changes were meant as an equalizer more than anything. Universal jump and faster frame data across the board. Characters that already had those things change very little. The fat hippos that didn't received a lot, and Zelda happened to be one of those hippos lol

Exactly. While Zelda isn't necessarily faster herself, most of her moves are faster due to the buffs she received in her frame data. It will still be a struggle to approach and punish directly, but she has enough tools where you will be able to use projectiles from a safe distance and then use her improved aerials to pressure from the inside. Then she has her grabs which can transition into Nair, fair, Bair, or up-air which can kill early.

So yeah, she's gonna be fun lol

 

[meleebrawler]

Basically what Erotic&Heretic said.

Yes, every character is faster and that seems to be what people focus on most. Because everyone changed then it doesn't really change much right? Wrong. The characters that had stupidly busted frame data received very little from this (some were nerfed even) because they were already safe on shield while everyone else is now on a similar playing field. They may be a little slower still, but just to give an example... Zelda's jab went from frame 11 to frame 4. That's an insane speed buff. Nearly 2/3 of the frames were cut off and it even kills now! A lot of the high tiers either stayed the same or received nerfs to what made them busted. Luigi's cyclone for example. Nerfed. Into. Oblivion... While other characters were buffed to the moon and back. Honestly, almost every single one of Zelda's moves was buffed via either frame data or quality of life changes. Din's Fire is faster and no more free fall, Farore's Wind is slightly faster and has drift finally, Phantom is completely revamped, etc...

Making Sheik's fair have slightly less end lag does literally nothing for her. It was already safe on shield if spaced right and she could fair string you across the stage before the change happened. However, shaving a ton of end lag off of Zelda's aerials is a massive change. The changes were meant as an equalizer more than anything. Universal jump and faster frame data across the board. Characters that already had those things change very little. The fat hippos that didn't received a lot, and Zelda happened to be one of those hippos lol

I guees it kind of pays to have not gotten a "band-aid" patch in 4 like they did with Bowser & DK. A trend with the nerfs I've seen is targeting a character's "that one move/combo", regardless of tier position and buffing the rest of their moves to compensate. Zelda didn't have anything like that.

Wouldn't say Luigi Cyclone was completely gutted though. Apparently his dthrow is back to it's pre-patch glory and with double-jump assistance he can still do a ladder combo with it. So it's more trading off recovery potential for offensive use (especially since it now has invincibility), plus he can use directional airdodges instead, which aren't too risky for him since he falls somewhat slow and his up b goes higher now. Slow airspeed still sucks there though. Basically he's a monster on stage with the ability to start huge combos off of basically anything with a weakness off stage.

 

[Downshift]

Exactly. While Zelda isn't necessarily faster herself, most of her moves are faster due to the buffs she received in her frame data. It will still be a struggle to approach and punish directly, but she has enough tools where you will be able to use projectiles from a safe distance and then use her improved aerials to pressure from the inside. Then she has her grabs which can transition into Nair, fair, Bair, or up-air which can kill early.

So I don't have Brawl anymore so I can't directly compare, but one thing I remember being much worse in Sm4sh than Brawl was Din's Fire.
In Brawl, while it lacked that tiny KO'ing sweetspot in the middle, had a HUGE hitbox that did respectable damage. So much so that whether I was going to detonate it well in front of the opponent or well after it had crossed up the opponent was enough to catch people trying to shield it. It was a tool I could use to camp and force approaches in neutral.
In Sm4sh however, the overall hitbox is far less effective with the tiny KO sweetspot and the sourspot that still seems smaller overall than Brawl's. Throwing out Din's in netural in Sm4sh was guaranteed to get you punished by anyone that wasn't Ganon.
So even if we still don't have approach options, I'm hoping Din's will be a viable projectile in neutral again because we NEED to be able to force approaches with how good her defensive and grab game is.

 

[Aussie1024]

So I don't have Brawl anymore so I can't directly compare, but one thing I remember being much worse in Sm4sh than Brawl was Din's Fire.
In Brawl, while it lacked that tiny KO'ing sweetspot in the middle, had a HUGE hitbox that did respectable damage. So much so that whether I was going to detonate it well in front of the opponent or well after it had crossed up the opponent was enough to catch people trying to shield it. It was a tool I could use to camp and force approaches in neutral.
In Sm4sh however, the overall hitbox is far less effective with the tiny KO sweetspot and the sourspot that still seems smaller overall than Brawl's. Throwing out Din's in netural in Sm4sh was guaranteed to get you punished by anyone that wasn't Ganon.
So even if we still don't have approach options, I'm hoping Din's will be a viable projectile in neutral again because we NEED to be able to force approaches with how good her defensive and grab game is.

Yup Din's Fire is so much worse in Sm4sh. It had a hitbox that took so much trial and error to figure out how to hit consistently with. Even once you figured it out it wasn't very viable. Plus it has so much end lag so it's incredibly difficult to transition it into another move, roll, or shield. Yup Ganon was the only one who didn't consistently punish me after using Din's Fire. It was atrocious. Luckily in Ultimate, Din's Fire is a lot faster and doesn't lag nearly as badly as Sm4sh. It also is easier to move. And since airdodging can get you punished offstage, it makes for a much better edgeguarding ability. Finally, it doesn't leave her helpless so we can use it in the air from a distance without getting punished

 

[Downshift]

I actually have higher hopes for Din's over Phantom.

My approach to neutral as Zelda is defensive since her defensive options are among the best in the game. I don't know that we're ever going to be able to reliably or safely approach a majority of the cast, so being able to force them to approach us and make mistakes is the main way we'll be able to put them in disadvantage or set up tech chases or kill setups. Phantom was not good at this due to is loud projecting sound effects, limited range (for a "projectile"), and inability to store it after it was charged. You ever seen what a Villager can do when he pockets the Phantom? Why can't we do that??
I pretty much only ever used the Phantom for edgeguarding in Sm4sh, and for that it's pretty decent, and will definitely be better with the full charge delay in Ultimate.
However, if Din's can now create safe pressure from at least half the distance of FD to force people into Zelda's bubble, we'll have a much easier time creating openings. It needs to force people to either approach (but not get a free hit during our stupid ~120 FAF), or just hide in shield and be conditioned for a tomahawk or dash grab or something (or a targeted Farore's Wind).

 

[Aussie1024]

Yeah that's a solid idea. We won't have the speed or chase-down ability to get KO's easily, which makes dashing and using aerials to approach a good idea, but not frequently because it would get predictable. It could also be seen as aggressive which could get you punished if you're not careful. Her projectiles will force people to come after her. Nayru's Love could be a good move for spacing when they approach, then maybe try and mix up some grabs and aerials. Luckily her standard moves on the ground are quick as well so those could be viable. Mixing up with her is gonna be really interesting with how her frame data was buffed.

I think Din's Fire will be able create safer pressure because it's easier to maneuver. Plus it won't have as nearly as much lag as Smash 4. That way you could transition into a defensive move right after it. Also, Farore's Wind could be a nice way to mix up a defensive approach and be aggressive.

My goodness, just thinking of how you can mix up approaches and combos with her is making me so giddy! Can't wait for midnight tomorrow!

 

[Ffamran]

So, someone found stuff out about the dash mechanics in Ultimate where essentially, there are two types of dash turning that he dubbed "dash-backers" and "turners". Zelda belongs to the "dash-backers" group where they can buffer a back dash during a generalized deadzone at frame 7-14 that all characters have and their pivot Bairs or other aerials if applicable can be more easily disguised as they don't enter the slide animation on frames 12-14. Dash-backers do have some drawbacks in that they can shield, roll, or crouch until +17 frames while turners can do those actions as early as frame 12. For example, it was pointed out that Rosalina, another dash-backer, can't shield until frame 24 while Cloud, a turner, can shield on frame 12. Dash-backers also can use jabs and tilts at frame 17 while turners can use them at frame 15 and dash-backers have slower sliding tilts at 3 frames slower than turners. There's probably some other stuff as I'm just summarizing what the poster who linked the dash mechanics said.

Do note that is is one person's research and the game's still got a few more days before it will be released. Read more about it here: https://smashboards.com/threads/lan...sted-all-76-chars.464174/page-5#post-22803052.

 

[「 Derk 」]

Kinda sounds like the pivot slide that was in smash 4. Some characters it was noticeable and allowed them to carry momentum and slide moves such as down smash or jab out of a pivot. It was incredibly noticeable by a ledge. Other characters it was minimal or near non existent. It all depended on how fast or slow your character could pivot out of dash and how much traction they had.

 

[mugwhump]

I was worried back around E3 that parries would screw over characters with multi-hit moves since you'd be able to just drop shield on the last hit for an easy parry. Fortunately it seems they thought of this and implemented some formula that determines variable parry-window sizes for multihit moves. For example, if you shield the first hit of falcon's nair, you only have a 1-frame window to parry the second hit. It varies between 3-1 frames depending on the move, and some multihits can't be parried at all (unless you parry each hit individually). Good news for zelda, since parrying multihit attacks looks like it'll actually end up being more difficult than parrying single-hits, which have a universal 5-frame window.

 

[「 Derk 」]

Here is the lab results of the first few hours with the game! Nair is stupid, in a good way lol. If you only allow the first hit to land then you can combo it into basically whatever you want and it has a pretty generous hitbox. Down throw to farore's ladder seems to link so much better in ultimate and the timing is much easier because of our faster jump and faster startup on farore's wind.

 

[Ffamran]

Tagging BJN39 , cause you're the Zelda frame data gorl.

I didn't know about this and this might not matter depending on how fast hit angles and other stuff is datamined, but for those of you who want to check hit angles, then test them on Samus or anyone who has a gravity of 0.075. Gravity values aren't completely out yet as far as I know. The reason for this is that the vertical launch speed boost formula is the same as it was in the previous games according to dataminer Arthur.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Samus apparently had her gravity reverted back to launch Smash 4's value instead of 1.1.5 where they increased her gravity to 0.077.

 

[*JuriHan*]

Ugh, what did they do to her d-tilt? It feels less safe v shield and lost a lot of follow up utility at early %... any one have any tips on how to use it in this game? Thanks.

 

[Katy Parry]

Here is the lab results of the first few hours with the game! Nair is stupid, in a good way lol. If you only allow the first hit to land then you can combo it into basically whatever you want and it has a pretty generous hitbox. Down throw to farore's ladder seems to link so much better in ultimate and the timing is much easier because of our faster jump and faster startup on farore's wind.

This is lovely. I'm definitely going to be studying this.

 

[Rickster]

I noticed something interesting with the Phantom while I was screwing around in training mode

There appears to be an extremely tight window where, after fully charging an armor, Zelda is able to use an attack the same time the Phantom attacks.

I'm having trouble replicating it, but one of three things happens depending on your timing of the attack

1. Too early. She will release the Phantom early while doing the release animation (pointing at the enemy)

2. Too late. She will perform the inputted attack, but the Phantom will not move and have the usual delay

3. Perfect timing. She and the Phantom will attack simultaneously. I haven't done any frame by frame testing, but the window feels extremely small. Like...maybe just a few frames if not one frame. This makes me wonder if this is actually a bug, where the phantom is accepting "early release" inputs slightly too long

I'm not sure how useful this would even be, but I suppose it's something to keep in mind

 

[Katy Parry]

I noticed something interesting with the Phantom while I was screwing around in training mode

There appears to be an extremely tight window where, after fully charging an armor, Zelda is able to use an attack the same time the Phantom attacks.

I'm having trouble replicating it, but one of three things happens depending on your timing of the attack

1. Too early. She will release the Phantom early while doing the release animation (pointing at the enemy)

2. Too late. She will perform the inputted attack, but the Phantom will not move and have the usual delay

3. Perfect timing. She and the Phantom will attack simultaneously. I haven't done any frame by frame testing, but the window feels extremely small. Like...maybe just a few frames if not one frame. This makes me wonder if this is actually a bug, where the phantom is accepting "early release" inputs slightly too long

I'm not sure how useful this would even be, but I suppose it's something to keep in mind

Yes I can confirm that. This is actually incredibly helpful because if someone knows to jump and punish you with an aerial, you can bust it and uptilt. Phantom level 5 will whiff completely because the hitbox travels low first, before he swings upward.
You could also shield, which is most likely the best of option. Because they can't be in front of you or the phantom will hit them, and you can cover yourself. Nayrus could be great too, but punishable if they hit you before the intangibility starts.

 

[「 Derk 」]

Unfortunately I have betrayed the sisterhood and I've been playing ivysaur. I love the way the character plays so much and ivysaur has always been one of my favorite pokemon. I'll make it back to Zelda eventually I'm sure lol.

 

[BJN39]

So, girls, for fun I decided to compile all the changes from SSB4 to Ultimate that I’ve found so far when collecting data! Bear in mind it’s far from everything without the hitboxes code to parse, but there’s (not much) stuff to gleam.

JAB
    Hitframe 11, 13, 15 -> 4-5, 7
    Hits 3 -> 2
    Damage 3/3/5 -> 2.5/2.5
NEW: Rapid Jab + Ender Hit

66A
    Hitframe 6-10 -> 6-12
    FAF 40 -> 36

FTILT
    Hitframe 10-11 -> 12-13
    FAF 38 -> 37
    Hitbox priority rearranged preventing the tipper from landing unless properly spaced.

DTILT
    Angle 80 -> 60
    FAF 25 -> 22

UTILT
    Hitframe 7-18 -> 7-19

FSMASH
    Literally nothing ... on the surface

DSMASH
    Charge frame 2 -> 3

USMASH
    Hitframe 9, 12, 15, 18, 25, 28, 31, 34 -> 9-22, 25-32, 34
    Re-hit rate of 4 added for multihits
    Max hits 8 -> 7
    Final hit damage 5.0 -> 6.0

NAIR
    Landing lag 19F -> 15F
    AC window <4-38> -> <3-37>

FAIR
    hitframe 9-13 -> 6-10
    FAF 53 -> 50
    Landing lag 23F -> 15F
    AC window <4-50> -> <2-41>

BAIR
    hitframe 6-9 -> 6-10
    FAF 53 -> 50
    Landing lag 25F -> 16F
    AC window <3-52> -> <2-43>

DAIR
    Landing lag 18F -> 12F
    AC window <4-40> -> <3-37>

UAir
    Landing lag 19F -> 12F
    AC window <5-56> -> <4-52>

Nayru’s Love
    Hitframe 13-24, 28 -> 11-22, 26
    FAF 60 -> 58
    Intangible frames 5-15 -> 4-13
    Reflect frames 5-43 -> 5-41

Din’s Fire
    Release hitframe 16-17 -> 14-15
    FreeFall removed

Farore’s Wind
    Hitframe 7-8, 41-42 -> 6-7, 35-36
    Grounded FAF 81 -> 76
    Intangible frames 23-39 -> 17-34

Phantom Slash
    Way too goddam much

GRABS
    Standing Grab
        FAF 38 -> 40
    Dash Grab 
        Hitframe 11-12 -> 13-14
        FAF 47 -> 48
    Pivot Grab
        Hitframe 11-12 -> 14-15
        FAF 45 -> 43

FTHROW
    Damage 12.0 -> 10.0

BTHROW
    Damage 11.0 -> 12.0

DTHROW
    Damage 1/1/1/1/2 (6) -> 1.5/1.5/1.5/1.5/2 (8)

 

[Codebox]

I wonder how many Phantom combos or follow ups can actually be found. I'm actually curious. I haven't seen anyone utilize her throw KOs yet which is odd.

 

[Downshift]

Messed around with some online battles earlier and I don't seem to be any better or worse with Zelda competitively, which is probably a good thing. She can do everything that Sm4sh Zelda could already do right out of the gate, and there's still a lot more tech and combos to be discovered.

Didn't do as well in 4v4 FFAs though. We already knew the new Phandom's full chage doesn't hit twice - which was huge for group battles, but it also seems like Farore's reappearing hitbox is smaller.

 

[Te-Jay]

https://twitter.com/raykushi/status/1072556146660175875?s=21

This is nifty

 

[Downshift]

https://twitter.com/raykushi/status/1072556146660175875?s=21

This is nifty

"Iframes of Neutral B beat out any upB with a hitbox."

^^That is a huge deal if it's true for all 70+ characters...

 

[Rickster]

Due to the nature of Nayru's, it will always beat another attack as long as

1. Nayru's first hitbox connects without trading
2. The opposing move doesn't have super armor

Disjoints/invincible/intangible moves loop back to rule 1

 

[BJN39]

Zelda is intangible for a grand total of 3F of her hitbox, which is a constant hitbox with rehit rates instead of the inconsistent old strobe hitboxes lol. The primary risk is that her aerial target hitboxes don’t reach as far as they do vs grounded opponents (yep, still a thing.) so you have to be almost inside a recovering target. Shouldn’t be a problem if they’re trying to just brute in, but a lot of recoveries have guaranteed-recovery invincibility (Sonic at the start is invincible, Marth is invincible until his hitbox appears, to name a few) so it’ll be essential to know which chars are going to be vulnerable at any point for this to be viable. Most competitive players will otherwise just abuse invincibility if they face a Zelda offstage.

 

[Jimster]

For characters with predictable recoveries like K Rool, jumping out and phantom towards the ledge could also help and the timing could be easier. It's much more match up limited but could be easier than working around the small invincibility window and you don't have to worry about clashing. Much less useful for characters that allow recovery mixups tho.

On a completly unrelated note, don't know if this is common knowledge but: apparently if you use phantom immediately after pressing jump, you continue jumping while phantom is being charged on the ground where you were, similar to how phantom is stuck on the platform where you drop off. If you really wanna approach this might cover you but just a tiny little bit. If you get a bit opportunity to punish though you will get a head start before the phantom for an even bigger punish.

 

[Katy Parry]

For characters with predictable recoveries like K Rool, jumping out and phantom towards the ledge could also help and the timing could be easier. It's much more match up limited but could be easier than working around the small invincibility window and you don't have to worry about clashing. Much less useful for characters that allow recovery mixups tho.

On a completly unrelated note, don't know if this is common knowledge but: apparently if you use phantom immediately after pressing jump, you continue jumping while phantom is being charged on the ground where you were, similar to how phantom is stuck on the platform where you drop off. If you really wanna approach this might cover you but just a tiny little bit. If you get a bit opportunity to punish though you will get a head start before the phantom for an even bigger punish.

I need a video or something

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

I don't have a video, but i can confirm it's possible to "stick" the phantom to the ground. I wasn't sure how, and it happened by accident so far, so I need to properly test it now.

 

[Jimster]

I need a video or something

Are you talking about the sticky phantom? I have no idea how to make videos but it'ls quite easy to test out in 1/4 speed training mode where you use the same timing for buffered sh dair and it should come out while sticking to the ground

 

[Katy Parry]

Are you talking about the sticky phantom? I have no idea how to make videos but it'ls quite easy to test out in 1/4 speed training mode where you use the same timing for buffered sh dair and it should come out while sticking to the ground

Yes I tested it. You can do it if you slide from jump to B so on Joy cons it was easy but on GameCube I'm gonna need to work with it.

Also guys,
I found out phantom has SEVEN CHARGE LEVELS NOT 6
1. Kick (feet)
2. Punch (arms)
3. Horizontal slash (sword)
4. Overhead Slash (chest piece)
5. Overhead Slash LONGER RANGE (shield)
6. Verical Slash
7. Standy Vertical Slash

So it's a certain timing but if you get the shield you can do the overhead slash that extends a little over one training mode square. It's actually amazing because it covers distance much better, the timing is a little bit later.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Also guys,
I found out phantom has SEVEN CHARGE LEVELS NOT 6
1. Kick (feet)
2. Punch (arms)
3. Horizontal slash (sword)
4. Overhead Slash (chest piece)
5. Overhead Slash LONGER RANGE (shield)
6. Verical Slash
7. Standy Vertical Slash

So it's a certain timing but if you get the shield you can do the overhead slash that extends a little over one training mode square. It's actually amazing because it covers distance much better, the timing is a little bit later.

I saw this when I was trying to figure out why overheard slash's sword tip was going through the opponent, but not registering as an attack. I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me but I guess that's not the case. Interesting, I'll have to try it out next time I
play.

 

[BJN39]

I kinda knew that there were differences in some of the levels from data labbing, but figured they were so negligible that no one was gonna make a shpeal about it since most of the difference is visual.

1. The weaker sword “slice” has two minor variants with one doing about 1% more damage.

2. The “overhead” has two variants that also do a 1% damage difference and the latter one has the shield active and can block any projectile at the very start, while the first doesn’t.

The last variation probably has some minor alteration on immediate release versus stalled I wouldn’t doubt, but I actually hadn't observed it yet *shrug* the move is just so complex (windboxes, shields, damage thresholds, oh my!) that I felt like we should try to simplify and only call phases by their animation, otherwise there’s essentially 8 variations!

 

[Katy Parry]

I kinda knew that there were differences in some of the levels from data labbing, but figured they were so negligible that no one was gonna make a shpeal about it since most of the difference is visual.

1. The weaker sword “slice” has two minor variants with one doing about 1% more damage.

2. The “overhead” has two variants that also do a 1% damage difference and the latter one has the shield active and can block any projectile at the very start, while the first doesn’t.

The last variation probably has some minor alteration on immediate release versus stalled I wouldn’t doubt, but I actually hadn't observed it yet *shrug* the move is just so complex (windboxes, shields, damage thresholds, oh my!) that I felt like we should try to simplify and only call phases by their animation, otherwise there’s essentially 8 variations!

I think it's important. Knowing the difference between. The fact that there's at least one frame of difference between the two makes it relevant and important to discuss lol. For the development of her metagame.
Knowing to use the sooner release when your opponent is in is crucial because the Phantom will come off cool down faster, even if slightly, knowing she can act sooner. Or the shielded overhead could be better at covering rolls.

Now, the important question. You said 8, what final one are you referring to?

Oh there's two levels to the third animation! Excellent. I tested in training in as I type, each version of charge goes one full space further! That's incredible.

 

[ZSel]

Anyone tried some run off neutral B as an edgeguard tool ? Made it work like a Fox shine from melee sometimes, but can't figure out when you should use it instead of Nair by example. I'm guessing (and hoping too lol) that it'd work when character wait to be at the vertical down of the edge before recovering.. like K.K rool up b that will protect him a lot.
Most of the time if I've to go off stage I use fair or nair so just wanted to know if neutral B is good.. like how do you guys generally edgeguard ?

 

[Jimster]

Anyone tried some run off neutral B as an edgeguard tool ? Made it work like a Fox shine from melee sometimes, but can't figure out when you should use it instead of Nair by example. I'm guessing (and hoping too lol) that it'd work when character wait to be at the vertical down of the edge before recovering.. like K.K rool up b that will protect him a lot.
Most of the time if I've to go off stage I use fair or nair so just wanted to know if neutral B is good.. like how do you guys generally edgeguard ?

Neutral B aka Nayru’s edge guard is definitely a thing. I recall someone talking about it in a different thread. It’s especially good due to its invincibility frames and long lasting hit boxes. Imo it’s better than nair in terms of duration and invincibility but nair does cover more distance if you fastfall it and can be deadly further away from the ledge. If opponent tries to recover low nayru’s can potentially stage spike them which is also great. Nayru’s also has the advantage of B reversing, allowing you to cover that extra angle below the stage when you are out of time to jump off and turn around while your opponent tries to recover from that tricky angle.

Personally I have be going for dair spike off stage or two frame a lot. Old habits from Smash 4, still works decently though. Also phantom off the stage, either reversed or not depending on their trajectory It’s great for scaring your opponent into air dodging mind game situation as you can just hold it....

 

[StoicPhantom]

Neutral B aka Nayru’s edge guard is definitely a thing. I recall someone talking about it in a different thread. It’s especially good due to its invincibility frames and long lasting hit boxes. Imo it’s better than nair in terms of duration and invincibility but nair does cover more distance if you fastfall it and can be deadly further away from the ledge. If opponent tries to recover low nayru’s can potentially stage spike them which is also great. Nayru’s also has the advantage of B reversing, allowing you to cover that extra angle below the stage when you are out of time to jump off and turn around while your opponent tries to recover from that tricky angle.

Personally I have be going for dair spike off stage or two frame a lot. Old habits from Smash 4, still works decently though. Also phantom off the stage, either reversed or not depending on their trajectory It’s great for scaring your opponent into air dodging mind game situation as you can just hold it....

Anyone tried some run off neutral B as an edgeguard tool ? Made it work like a Fox shine from melee sometimes, but can't figure out when you should use it instead of Nair by example. I'm guessing (and hoping too lol) that it'd work when character wait to be at the vertical down of the edge before recovering.. like K.K rool up b that will protect him a lot.
Most of the time if I've to go off stage I use fair or nair so just wanted to know if neutral B is good.. like how do you guys generally edgeguard ?

I've been having a lot of trouble edgeguarding low recoveries so these posts helped a lot. They seem to just hug the side of the stage and make the stage spike a little tricky to hit. I tried this in training and the timing is a little difficult to pull off but hopefully I can learn this. Does the spike happen on the bottom half of the hitbox? I'm not really how Nayru's Love works as far as spinning the opponent.

 

[Katy Parry]

OMFG GUYS

https://twitter.com/SUGOI_ven/status/1073449563246125056?s=19

The ultimate trap. Set up a phantom as they're recovering. If they jump from ledge they're COMPLETELY screwed.

This combo gives me LIFEEE