Data Zelda’s Smash Ultimate Moveset /Move Viability Discussion: Phantom Slash = Huge Neutral Buff

[Peachkid]

or imagine this: you put out a full charged phantom, if the opponet is close enough to you, you run up to them and they instinctively shield then you grab them and back throw them INTO THE PHANTIM SRIKE AND FOLLOW UP WITH A UP AIR OR FAIR/BAIR IF YOU CAN. just sit and think for a min how cool that would look in a match especially if it ended up killing

While that would be cool, there’s a few key things that would prevent this from happening, at least with any regularity and with my understanding of Zelda thus far. I’m talking mostly about zelda’s frame data and the lengthier animation of her throws and her ground speed, along with the current blind spot up close to the phantom after being fully charged.

Granted I don’t know off hand the frame data of delayed, fully charged phantom, however if my assumption is correct that it’s correctly spaced to hit, Zelda wouldn’t be able to throw the opponent back into the phantom in the desired ping-pong way. What I can see however, is the phantom pressuring someone in their shield at high percent, Zelda grabbing them while they’re in shield stun and up throwing them to secure a kill.

Now doubles on the other hand, with someone positioned and ready to throw the opponent into the phantom to set Zelda up... that is another story. In that case I can totally see it happening, along with other potential shenanigans. Zelda has always been pretty strong in doubles, but I feel like with all the changes she received, she’s going to be able to play a powerful defensive/anchor/supportive role for someone who is able to go in and be aggressive.

(I’m on my phone, so my response isn’t as well thought out as I would have liked, but I hope I got the point across)

Edit: I forgot to mention that the blind spot on fully charged phantom might just be a demo thing. I feel like they’d put a bit more oomph behind the wind box so that the move connects. Also I feel like since it’s technically a two hitbox attack, the two hits should lead into each other better like in 4. Who knows if that’ll happen though, but it’s one of the things I’d like to see fixed along with that dreadful upsmash Dx

 

[Rickster]

Can't wait to see Zelda team killing everyone with random delayed phantoms tbh

Team killing as in friendly fire

 

[「 Derk 」]

Zelda has some pretty basic rules in doubles:
1: Don't get in her way
2: If you are anywhere on the screen then you are in her way.

Rip everyone

 

[Peachkid]

Can I make a point to say this: I knew that Phantom 4 was pretty bonkers, but holy hell that overhead can solve world hunger.

 

[Deleted member]

One thing I noticed and I like, is that stage two phantom knocked Link of his feet at around 30%. So that move forces you to tech (at least on mid weights, will probably be different with fast fallers and heavy weight characters)

So, than that means it can lead into resets if people dont tech, and it can lead into a grab if teched, since she has less end lag after performing the move. Phantom is going to have a lot of uses. And boy, is Zelda looking better than ever!

 

[H34rt3r0k3n]

hey fellow zelda mains I was playing smash 4 today with zelda and I didn't do as good as usual I got two stocked alot even against characters i thought I was pretty good against. maybe it was a change in my play style I didn't notice? ive been recently been trying to figure out how exactly to play zelda, do you camp? bait and punish? be extra patient? aggressive? I know everyone has their different playstyles but id just like to know the bread and butter way or style to play zelda... there has to be one.

and also what is the best way to playing against characters like mewtwo, bayo, yoshi and lucas/ness and projectike and sword characters like marth and lucina

 

[Deleted member]

hey fellow zelda mains I was playing smash 4 today with zelda and I didn't do as good as usual I got two stocked alot even against characters i thought I was pretty good against. maybe it was a change in my play style I didn't notice? ive been recently been trying to figure out how exactly to play zelda, do you camp? bait and punish? be extra patient? aggressive? I know everyone has their different playstyles but id just like to know the bread and butter way or style to play zelda... there has to be one.

and also what is the best way to playing against characters like mewtwo, bayo, yoshi and lucas/ness and projectike and sword characters like marth and lucina

Ok, so as you said, yes everyone has their own way of playing. But I think every Zelda main can agree that, being patient is very important. Because if you get impatient with her, she doesn't have many great options for rushing down, so you will end up using unsafe options, which, for the most part, you are gonna lose. So keeping your head clear and level is important when playing Zelda.

Now, when your opponent is in disadvantage state, that is your time to be more aggressive. Sheild grabbing is really good for catching your opponent. And if your opponent doesn't have a double jump, you punish your opponents landing with up b.

Also, spacing is really important. As you know, Zelda moves dont have much range, so alot of the time, you are gonna trade when doing combos. However Upair, Fair/Bair, have decent range, so spacing those well are very rewarding, but they all have a ton of end lag, so try auto canceling and spacing those moves as well as you can at all times.

As a Zelda main, you also have to play neutral very carefully. Try fishing for jabs, since those can follow into grabs which are very important for Zelda as down throw leads into Nair, upair or bair/fair depending on your opponents di and weight.

Lastly, there really isn't a bread and butter way of playing Zelda, each player plays differently, and each person views mu's differently. So my advice in conclusion is, stay patient, play neutral carefully and look for mistakes and bad habit's your opponents make. If you notice they airdodge alot after down throw, get them with a full hop dair into falling Nair for another grab. If they being timid, or not approaching, put a phantom in front of you and dins fire. It always works for me. For fast characters that are being stubborn, jab and down tilt is your best friend.

Lastly, check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAvllUJY6JI

Hope this cleared up some things. Be sure to ask any questions.

 

[H34rt3r0k3n]

Ok, so as you said, yes everyone has their own way of playing. But I think every Zelda main can agree that, being patient is very important. Because if you get impatient with her, she doesn't have many great options for rushing down, so you will end up using unsafe options, which, for the most part, you are gonna lose. So keeping your head clear and level is important when playing Zelda.

Now, when your opponent is in disadvantage state, that is your time to be more aggressive. Sheild grabbing is really good for catching your opponent. And if your opponent doesn't have a double jump, you punish your opponents landing with up b.

Also, spacing is really important. As you know, Zelda moves dont have much range, so alot of the time, you are gonna trade when doing combos. However Upair, Fair/Bair, have decent range, so spacing those well are very rewarding, but they all have a ton of end lag, so try auto canceling and spacing those moves as well as you can at all times.

As a Zelda main, you also have to play neutral very carefully. Try fishing for jabs, since those can follow into grabs which are very important for Zelda as down throw leads into Nair, upair or bair/fair depending on your opponents di and weight.

Lastly, there really isn't a bread and butter way of playing Zelda, each player plays differently, and each person views mu's differently. So my advice in conclusion is, stay patient, play neutral carefully and look for mistakes and bad habit's your opponents make. If you notice they airdodge alot after down throw, get them with a full hop dair into falling Nair for another grab. If they being timid, or not approaching, put a phantom in front of you and dins fire. It always works for me. For fast characters that are being stubborn, jab and down tilt is your best friend.

Lastly, check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAvllUJY6JI

Hope this cleared up some things. Be sure to ask any questions.

hey thanks alot for the tips they are very helpful. ill make sjre to use up b more for punishing and try to punish. I specifically uave a hard time with sonic cuz hes fast... ganon cuz hes powerful... and porjectile characters cuz well... tueyre 10 year olds who like throwing things

 

[「 Derk 」]

Now that we are less than a month away I really can't stop getting hype that we are so close to playing ultimate. I just went ham earlier and bought a bunch of recording/streaming stuff for next month. I've always had issues with trying to record any form of audio for commentary which is why I never really recorded much in general. I have a pretty soft voice so I would usually have to boost a headset a decent amount, which would cause static as a side effect, and it would have to be obnoxiously close to my mouth which sucks when you pronounce words that have any form of emphasis, plus I really hate wearing a headset... It's never been a pleasant experience to say the least lol. I picked up a yeti standing microphone earlier and I legit wanted to cry because it sounds so good and I don't even have to be that close to it which is like a whole new world to me. I've never had something so simple make me so happy before lol.
December is gonna be lit! My phone still sucks though. Don't care enough about it to upgrade

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Hoi! Just popping up to share this analysis by Mew2King:

It's nothing new in terms of info (i think) but it's a good wrap-up imo plus it's just great to see that he shares our optimism for Zelda

 

[NeonNote]

Honestly, that freaking new jab will do her miracles in my eyes. The phantom is looking super dope as well. I wish it wasn't treated as a projectile, but at least now she can actually reflect a fully charged phantom back at her opponent.

 

[Downshift]

Honestly, that freaking new jab will do her miracles in my eyes. The phantom is looking super dope as well. I wish it wasn't treated as a projectile, but at least now she can actually reflect a fully charged phantom back at her opponent.

Yeah, I also don't get why M2K said her new jab was a nerf. It comes out faster now and I love that it actually has a rapid jab and finisher. It can KO for chrissake.
I still wish the Phantom was storable, but that probably comes from me also playing Samus, Lucario and Mewtwo...

 

[「 Derk 」]

The new jab is a buff and a nerf. It's a buff because it's faster and overall better for that reason because frame 11 is garbage. But we lost grab confirms off of jab and it may not be safe on shield anymore so it's also nerfed from how it works in smash 4. I still think we ended up much better with how jab works in ultimate. Going from 11 frames to 4 is really nice and it can kill by the ledge.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Yeah, more than buffed or nerfed, it's simply different. I think the change is good though, especially on the ledge with it's decent range and kill power. But the frame 4 is great too.

 

[Downshift]

I see it as a net buff though. Easily.
At frame 4, it can be an even more reliable KO option than her grab with abysmal frame data and its 50/50 Upthrow combo. And while it was safe on shield in Sm4sh, I think either Dtilt or Ftilt will still be safe if spaced.
I know Ftilt got a lag nerf, but it also depends on its range and damage/hitstun if it'll still be safe. I think the intent of the Ftilt endlag nerf was more to prevent it from being good as a combo starter, not to make it unsafe, since they also made sure to change its launch angle to knock them out of follow up range.

 

[Rickster]

Jab 1> stuff and Jab 1>jab combo will be a good mixup to use, like Fox/Sheik/Falcon etc use

 

[「 Derk 」]

Honestly losing the jab confirms kinda sucks but I much prefer a frame 4 option over everything we lost because it makes her much faster and adds a great OoS option. My main issue when I play Zelda always stems from the fact that her frame data doesnt allow her to punish many things out of shield. you basically have to farores or nayru and risk getting punished for all the endlag or down tilt. Zelda does not have to rely on 50/50 off of throws anymore because we have mewtwo's up throw that easily kills at decent percents. Its not a necessity but still an option though. Zelda having a reliable kill throw helps her so much and that's the main reason I'm okay with having a faster jab at the cost of potential combo options. She no longer has to play the fishing/bait game to secure stocks. We can be an annoying Ness player, but anywhere on the stage since it kills vertically. We actually have a really good neutral option in the phantom that will help us net grabs too. Not gonna lie... I'm looking forward to not having to elevator someone to kill and hoping they don't DI it. Elevators are always hype, but they give me serious anxiety because it's always a risk lol.

 

[Katy Parry]

https://twitter.com/WitchTimed/status/1067479759041568768

Ladies.

 

[Toadallstar2]

https://twitter.com/WitchTimed/status/1067479759041568768

Ladies.

Behold our next supreme.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

https://twitter.com/WitchTimed/status/1067479759041568768

Ladies.

Nice, that's what I wanted to see since we knew the Phantom could be delayed. This isn't the thing that will happen everytime, but I think it will catch people off guard more than once.

Also this. We can easily see that Bair's sweetspot is bigger.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[mugwhump]

Interesting, when I heard Palutena had lost ledge-cancels on her up B I assumed Zelda would too. I wonder why they decided to keep it for some characters and not others.

While that would be cool, there’s a few key things that would prevent this from happening, at least with any regularity and with my understanding of Zelda thus far. I’m talking mostly about zelda’s frame data and the lengthier animation of her throws and her ground speed, along with the current blind spot up close to the phantom after being fully charged.

Granted I don’t know off hand the frame data of delayed, fully charged phantom, however if my assumption is correct that it’s correctly spaced to hit, Zelda wouldn’t be able to throw the opponent back into the phantom in the desired ping-pong way. What I can see however, is the phantom pressuring someone in their shield at high percent, Zelda grabbing them while they’re in shield stun and up throwing them to secure a kill.

My roommate has the game and I got to play a bit today. If you release the fully charged phantom then grab ASAP and forward throw, the opponent will get thrown into the slash. If you down throw it seems like the opponent takes a bit more damage as the phantom goes through them?

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Interesting to see down-tilt to grab is still a thing, I wonder if it's true or if people can jump / airdodge.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Peachkid]

Ugh all this footage makes me wish I had a copy of Ultimate waiting for me when I get home from NYC tomorrow. I CAN'T WAIT ANY LONGER TO PLAY ZELDA AND KICK HEAUXS IN THE NADS

 

[「 Derk 」]

Based on what has been data mined and info floating around it seems Zelda is the 2nd character to be unlocked! Unlocks happen every 10 mins you play but you can close the game and reopen it to bypass the timer. Hard to believe we are only a week away from ultimate. My boss is a huge gamer too so he gave me next Friday off lol.

 

[Aussie1024]

Based on what has been data mined and info floating around it seems Zelda is the 2nd character to be unlocked! Unlocks happen every 10 mins you play but you can close the game and reopen it to bypass the timer. Hard to believe we are only a week away from ultimate. My boss is a huge gamer too so he gave me next Friday off lol.

That's what I have seen too! It makes me so excited to know she's one of the first to unlock through just playing the game. Once I get it, I'm doing Versus until I get her. I'm so psyched to use her in this game. I recently picked her up in Brawl and Smash 4 to get a feel for her moveset and see how she plays. I'm hoping I can learn some things that could prep me for Ultimate. It's been an adventure considering how bad she is in those games, but I feel it will be worth it. I'm really looking forward to using her in Ultimate. She looks like a blast to use, and a major upgrade from previous Smashes. I picked her up because she looked so fun to use whenever I watched her gameplay. Plus I adore her redesign. I apologize if it seems like bandwagoning, but I felt it would be cool to use a character who's been historically bad in Smash finally get a good game.

 

[Downshift]

MEDIA=twitter]1067457516584542210[/MEDIA] /QUOTE]
Uhmmm...

So I've been using tap jump since SSB64 mostly for the faster out of shield options like Up+B and Up Smashes with my mains. I've considered switching to button jumping only to make short hops easier, but it's hard to break the habit. Didn't seem worth it given how I use Samus and Zelda's OoS and Lucario's UpSmash out of AS charge.

However, I might try to switch and disable tap jump in Ultimate to take advantage of this new Jump + Attack mechanic...

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Interesting to see down-tilt to grab is still a thing, I wonder if it's true or if people can jump / airdodge.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I'm speechless... i'll let this meme speak for me:

For real tho, that short hop fair is coming out so fast it's crazy to see in action. Also, speaking of magnificient lightning kick, this was posted on twitter earlier:

WAIT NO YOU CANT SEE THE COMBO COUNTER NOW GDI
Here's the first one again lmao pic.twitter.com/ECB9q3esqz

— gaku (@ukonoe_taishou) November 29, 2018

Two last things, a user who has access to the game made this wonderful thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/lan...rame-data-thread-training-mode-tested.464174/ The user is also taking requests/questions if you want some specific info about Zelda. Here's what Bakasama found so far:

Zelda (landing lag)
Nair: 15 frames
Fair: 15 frames
Bair: 16 frames
Uair: 12 frames
Dair: 12 frames
Fullhop height: 2.7 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.2 stage units
Interesting Notes: Downthrow combos into backair for a really long time. Nair can still drag the opponent with you. Nair combos into jab for a long time, but if you fast fall and land only 1 hit of nair, the opponent will fall out, so landing 2 hits of nair is required to drag them down at higher percents. You still can't shorthop autocancel fair or bair. Neutral B (Nayru's) is fully invincible from frame 4 to 13, this move is 54 frames long. Spirit Knight takes 70 frames to charge fully, at which point he will wait 53 frames to strike on his own. You can tell him to attack at any point, either while charging, or while he's waiting. Calling him to attack while charging will cause him to not form fully and initiate a weaker attack. UpB still combos into itself, and you could potentially land nair1,2,upB as a true combo.

aaaaand another user (PsySmasher) made a thread about the changes in running & air speed :https://smashboards.com/threads/run-and-air-speed-changes-data-thread.464319/ (Basically Zelda is getting the standard 10% increased running speed & 5% increased air speed)

 

[「 Derk 」]

Fair having the same amount of landing lag as Nair. What a wonderful time to be alive! Not having to call life alert for poor Zelda every time she does an aerial is going to be great. May granny Zelda rest in peace.

 

[mugwhump]

Playing against my friend, it seems the anti-phantom strat is definitely going to be jumping over it whenever possible. It's just too risky for people to face it on the ground. It helps that jumps accelerate really fast. Looks like we'll need to get good at catching people with uair.

So I've been using tap jump since SSB64 mostly for the faster out of shield options like Up+B and Up Smashes with my mains. I've considered switching to button jumping only to make short hops easier, but it's hard to break the habit. Didn't seem worth it given how I use Samus and Zelda's OoS and Lucario's UpSmash out of AS charge.

However, I might try to switch and disable tap jump in Ultimate to take advantage of this new Jump + Attack mechanic...

Good news, in ultimate you can just press up B or up smash out of shield to do either, even if tap jump's turned off. Time to switch.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Down-Throw to Back-Air seems... Powerful to say the least.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Remember that Zelda have some rage and that Squirtle is one of the lightest characters, though.

 

[「 Derk 」]

Good news, in ultimate you can just press up B or up smash out of shield to do either, even if tap jump's turned off. Time to switch.

Wait, am I reading that right? You don't have to jump cancel out of shield anymore to do something like farores wind? Can you press the inputs while still holding the shield button? If so that's amazing.

I always had one of my shoulder buttons mapped to jump so I could jump cancel farores out of shield easier in smash 4.

 

[mugwhump]

Wait, am I reading that right? You don't have to jump cancel out of shield anymore to do something like farores wind? Can you press the inputs while still holding the shield button? If so that's amazing.

I always had one of my shoulder buttons mapped to jump so I could jump cancel farores out of shield easier in smash 4.

Yup, just hold shield and press up B. It's great. I had Y mapped to special so I could slide from X to Y lmao. Those dark days are behind us now.

 

[mugwhump]

This guy posted a nice overview of changes to her moveset, seems pretty positive
https://twitter.com/MeruSensei/status/1067926623754833921

 

[Downshift]

Wait, am I reading that right? You don't have to jump cancel out of shield anymore to do something like farores wind? Can you press the inputs while still holding the shield button? If so that's amazing.

Yeah, I honestly never knew why it was like that in the first place.

Been using Tap Jump for like 10+ years, so this habit is gonna die hard and I'm going to have LOTS of SDs before it becomes second nature. Still, transitioning to a new game (and controller) seems like as good a time as any to switch.

 

[Katy Parry]

So I've got my hands on the game, and she's feeling incredible. I placed second with her at a little tournament we had, lost to Renegade, a top PR player here in Indiana. Mains Ryu, but he played Ike.

His Nair spam is going to be a problem, and if you start a phantom in neutral, he just jumped right over it and can punish you with fair before you can finish the cast. Our best hope is to start the charge and if they jump, bust it early and hold shield, or phantom might be reserved to edgeguarding.

Parry is going to make or break good Zelda players. Parry is incredibly hard to do but incredibly strong against single hit characters.

Phantom is an excellent low.percent tech chase option. Hit them away with fsmash or jab, or ftilt, then start charging Phantom, and just tap B to punish whenever you can.

Also yes, if Zelda is attacked or grabbed, or if her shield is hit, the phantom will break. So getting an SP out means you don't want to engage until it's about to go off. The timing in this game is pretty crucial.

If you guys have any questions on her let me know.

But my over all opinion of Zelda: A+

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

I suppose the best would be charging the Phantom while retracting with a jump backward then, but that also mean losing some ground. People jumping over is the same weakness as in Smash 4, although I hope that charge 4 will be fast enough to catch jumping opponent, or at least fast enough to simply shield.
Personally I jumped a lot for my phantom so...

How is the range of Up-Air in the final build? And also, how does the reduced landing lag feels?

 

[「 Derk 」]

Since Zelda jumps faster, farores wind is slightly faster, and can apparently combo together better with the aerial version can you see if down throw to aerial farores ladder works better than it did in smash 4? It was a true combo in smash 4 but it was not reliable at all. It could be a di mixup since we can already do down throw to bair pretty reliably

 

[Aussie1024]

I am pleased to hear how positive you feel about her in the game. I can't wait to try her out! I have two questions. First, how does she feel in the air? I still expect her to be floaty but does she feel as helpless in the air as in Smash 4? It was always super difficult to land on a stage without someone chasing me down and punishing me. Also, how is her movement out of rolls? It was so laggy in Smash 4 and it created problems when I tried to space away from my opponent. I know her ground movement looks more fluid and she looks slightly faster, but I'm curious as to how you feel about her rolls

 

[Katy Parry]

Something interesting to note:

If you have a phantom full charged, you can actually detonate it early by pressing down B again. So you can mix up your opponent by getting them use to the normal delay the move has on its own, and then fully charge a phantom, jump/jab/shield run/anything, and then bust.

However, you are stuck in the little animation she does while casting. She points her finger out. You cannot charge a phantom and then attack with Zelda and bust it early at the same time. That's important. If you want to attack in tandem, you have to wait for it to go off on it's own.

I will be answering your questions once I get home

 

[Rickster]

Something interesting to note:

If you have a phantom full charged, you can actually detonate it early by pressing down B again. So you can mix up your opponent by getting them use to the normal delay the move has on its own, and then fully charge a phantom, jump/jab/shield run/anything, and then bust.

However, you are stuck in the little animation she does while casting. She points her finger out. You cannot charge a phantom and then attack with Zelda and bust it early at the same time. That's important. If you want to attack in tandem, you have to wait for it to go off on it's own.

I will be answering your questions once I get home

Could you test the FAF of a minimum charge Phantom (or the early sendoff animation)? From gameplay footage I've seen it looks very quick, unlike Smash 4's like 80 frame commitment for pressing DownB lol