Data Zelda’s Smash Ultimate Moveset /Move Viability Discussion: Phantom Slash = Huge Neutral Buff

[Katy Parry]

Actually i think he did.. He pressed B again on Frame 68. Look.
FRAME 66

Frame 68

(notice phantom is starting movement but Zelda is not.

FRAME 69

Actually, Nairo held the charge for the full 69 frames that are needed for the Phantom to be fully charged before the first Dtilt.
Zelda is able to act on frame 70 after charging for 69 frames in all instances.
Whether or not Phantom being released that early is a function of Phantom's release being controllable or a bug associated with dropping through a platform is up in the air, but I don't think there's any kind of animation cancelling happening.

 

[Airswimmer]

You or I are likely off by a frame from where the animation starts or ends, but gathering frame data from footage like this is never an exact science. Being off by a frame isn't exactly something to write home about due to the video's footage likely not being sync'd with the game.

That said, the frame where you're pointing out the Phantom starts to move also has Zelda moving. She starts to crouch on that same frame in the video.

It's a bit hard to tell without you going back and forth between the two frames, but the Zelda on the right is the frame where the Phantom first starts moving while the one on the left is the frame right before. You can see she becomes slightly transparent and there's ghosting happening with the first frame of her crouching animation on the right.

 

[Katy Parry]

You or I are likely off by a frame from where the animation starts or ends, but gathering frame data from footage like this is never an exact science. Being off by a frame isn't exactly something to write home about due to the video's footage likely not being sync'd with the game.

That said, the frame where you're pointing out the Phantom starts to move also has Zelda moving. She starts to crouch on that same frame in the video.

It's a bit hard to tell without you going back and forth between the two frames, but the Zelda on the right is the frame where the Phantom first starts moving while the one on the left is the frame right before. You can see she becomes slightly transparent and there's ghosting happening with the first frame of her crouching animation on the right.

Yes, because she released the phantom early on frame 68. If she had just waited a frame later, I'm sure it'd have been the charge..Theretooint where there's a threshold for the input to register as charge 5 or charge 6. Know what I mean?

Hey, I'm just glad you're taking the time to help us all figure this out.

While there is an incalculable amount of depth to this move, I don't believe it's a bug/she can attack to release. The phantom starts to move before she does because she is starting the "hiya" animation of releasing the phantom. She cancels that on frame 70 with a down tilt input.

 

[Zede]

Can someone explain to me please why Zelda's UpSmash is so bad at connecting horizontally even though she's waving her arm all over the place, while Marth, Roy, Shulk, and Rob's seem to pull you in from half a stage away even though the animation is pretty vertical? WHY??!!

 

[evmaxy54]

Can someone explain to me please why Zelda's UpSmash is so bad at connecting horizontally even though she's waving her arm all over the place, while Marth, Roy, Shulk, and Rob's seem to pull you in from half a stage away even though the animation is pretty vertical? WHY??!!

https://www.ssbwiki.com/File:ZeldaUpSmash.gif

It's because she's waving her hand above her. The other characters also start their animation from down low whereas Zelda's start from up high

 

[Rickster]

Speaking of usmash, I'm sad that we won't be able to hard punish an airdodge after dthrow with it anymore.

In Smash 4, if they fly straight up and airdodge, we can catch them with a near full charge Usmash. I've deleTed people at like 65% (after throw damage with just a little rage) and it's wonderful. The new airdodge mechanics will probably neuter that, but at the same time we can probably land kicks better because of the dodge lag

 

[Zede]

https://www.ssbwiki.com/File:ZeldaUpSmash.gif
It's because she's waving her hand above her. The other characters also start their animation from down low whereas Zelda's start from up high

I really want them to fix that. It's frustrating that not only the attack misses completely, but the animation takes so long to end that Zelda becomes vulnerable for the longest time. I could live with a sour spot instead, or even the stupid 'miss' on the last hit, but make the damn attack at least connect for crying out loud.

 

[Nethermoosen]

Does anyone know if Din’s Fire explodes with less delay after input release?

 

[Katy Parry]

Does anyone know if Din’s Fire explodes with less delay after input release?

I'll check on that.

 

[meleebrawler]

There's been some confusion about LK damage from what I can see. Apparently there might be a global multiplier on short hop attacks in the realm of 0.85x, probably to discourage abusing their lowered landing lag.

 

[BJN39]

I can’t bother myself to go thru all the footage to verify rn but a little thing:

85 perfect of 25 is about 21. So perhaps FH kick sweetspot has been upped to 25 and can be possibly considered minor compensation to her for the SH mechanic?

That, and her Landing lag data recordings were not as good as other chars but that’s aside the point

 

[Rickster]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...made_a_spreadsheet/?utm_source=reddit-android

Lots of juicy data here

Notable stuff:

Jab startup 11>4 (we already confirmed this but I'm putting it here anyway)

Dash attack FAF 50>36!

Fair FAF 53>49, frame 9>6

Nair/Fair/Bair/Uair/Dair
19>14
23>15!
25>15!
19>12!
18>12!

Nayru's 13>11, FAF 60>58
(This is buff is better than it looks tbh)

The Farore's change is listed as a nerf but...if I'm reading it right it looks like the reappear hits on frame 35 instead of 41? It'll make tele-sniping a little faster I guess

Minor grab nerfs tho :/ Although Zelda hasn't been hit as hard as other characters because her grab was bad to begin with
Grab FAF 38>40
Dash Grab 11>13

I'm glad to see that the landing lag buffs are more significant than we originally thought. Zelda really struggled with landing lag in Smash 4. Keep in mind that even if other characters still have lower lag relative to her, she'll still be able to move much faster than in Smash 4, which is something she desperately needs

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

what do you guys think of the change to Zelda not losing her momentum while using Nayru's Love?

i was a little suspish of the change at first...but I think it could really help her escape aerial combos/strings easier bc she can still Nayru's out of it but instead of just staying in the same place, she'll fall back to the ground past the opponent. it'll be even easier for her to escape stuff too now with the slightly faster startup so that's niiice

i wonder how this could help her get out of juggling? because she basically becomes invincible for a little bit with a damaging hitbox all around her while she falls back down to the ground. Zelda really struggles with characters that juggle really good i.e. Rosalina so I wonder how this will change that.

ALSO, in Smash 4 I love edgeguarding with Nayru's against vulnerable recoveries by running off stage and b-reversing into the stage to try and stage spike bc Zelda just floats there, so I'm kinda sad thats gone, but I think the new Nayru's mechanics could be very interesting for edgeguarding in a different way bc Zelda can just fall down and completely cover a whole vertical space with a semi-invincible crystal that hits all around her, so maybe that could be interesting to use in some situations like while people are trying to snap to the ledge

 

[Rickster]

what do you guys think of the change to Zelda not losing her momentum while using Nayru's Love?

i was a little suspish of the change at first...but I think it could really help her escape aerial combos/strings easier bc she can still Nayru's out of it but instead of just staying in the same place, she'll fall back to the ground past the opponent. it'll be even easier for her to escape stuff too now with the slightly faster startup so that's niiice

i wonder how this could help her get out of juggling? because she basically becomes invincible for a little bit with a damaging hitbox all around her while she falls back down to the ground. Zelda really struggles with characters that juggle really good i.e. Rosalina so I wonder how this will change that.

ALSO, in Smash 4 I love edgeguarding with Nayru's against vulnerable recoveries by running off stage and b-reversing into the stage to try and stage spike bc Zelda just floats there, so I'm kinda sad thats gone, but I think the new Nayru's mechanics could be very interesting for edgeguarding in a different way bc Zelda can just fall down and completely cover a whole vertical space with a semi-invincible crystal that hits all around her, so maybe that could be interesting to use in some situations like while people are trying to snap to the ledge

I'm generally ok with it. I feel like Smash 4's Nayru's wasn't very good at getting her out of aerial juggles since the momentum halt would prevent the hitboxes from connecting with the opponent (remember that the only reason Nayru's beats so many moves is because the hitbox overlaps with the intangibility, so when they don't get hit it becomes a really meh escape move).

But we also lost "love stalling" offstage, although I don't think that was used very often. We also can't delay our fall (a la Fox shine) but then again, the endlag was so heavy that it wasn't a vital option anyway. Overall I appreciate the changes

 

[Katy Parry]

Her maintaining all momentum during her specials is an insane buff to her overall kit. Means she recovers better, she can preemptively DI after hitting a shield with farores wind in the air and not be punished. She's able to grab ledge even easier.
Nayrus is going to be her version of an emergency button. Being able to use it while she's falling allows for some sick air Dodge reads because you can stay right ontop of them and have a hitbox out as soon as they come out of of their airdodge.

Nario played Zelda once in a free for all on Onett during the Evo exhibition. Other than that, not too much new gameplay, or at least any worth watching.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Din's Fire can now be used mid-air without falling into a vulnerable state!! This gives a great option for clearing/securing the ledge while recovering (could be great if well timed with a Farore's wind arrival, well... it remains to be tested).

I just noticed it in this video from june 13th of Nairo vs Cosmos (1:29) :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oXB6ELs7gc&feature=youtu.be

Great thread btw, just went through it all. I'm so hyped to give Zelda a try in Ultimate, i've been trying hard since Melee but i still struggle even in Smash 4.

 

[QrowinSP]

I can't help but feel like I remember a clip where we see Zelda has an unusually large grab range. Like, not Melee-Marth, but a decent bit longer than you'd expect from a non tether. Am I remembering that wrong?

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

I can't help but feel like I remember a clip where we see Zelda has an unusually large grab range. Like, not Melee-Marth, but a decent bit longer than you'd expect from a non tether. Am I remembering that wrong?

Maybe you'll find that clip in there. The thread contains pretty much all Zelda footages we got so far.

 

[FiXalaS]

Frame 4 Jab is insane

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

A thot:
is it true that Zelda's forward throw has been buffed in knockback? Smashwiki says it's knockback growth has been improved but I haven't heard it from anywhere else.
IF SO...
that could make Zelda SUPER dangerous at the ledge because if your opponent expects you to run up grab and they spotdodge, you can just use Zelda's 4 frame kill jab out of a run (bc of new run mechanics) to outlast it and they ded or ready for edgeguarding.
Not to mention delayed Phantom and stuff will probably be able to cover almost every ledge option...Zelda is looking pretty scurry when she's at advantage near the ledge

 

[Nethermoosen]

During the Midland Smashdown, Zelda was seen using up throw to kill at 123% on Mewtwo.

Edit: 7:10 mark
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f8UjfaQTKA8

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

During the Midland Smashdown, Zelda was seen using up throw to kill at 123% on Mewtwo.

Edit: 7:10 mark
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f8UjfaQTKA8

JUST saw that and tried to mention it first
Btw is there an ultimate zelda discord link?

 

[Kyle B]

Some mice Zelda gameplay, at around 0:33 you can see her air dodge, looks nice, clean and full of style!
That Up+b reduced startup can really be felt, and overall quite a lovely match.
I'm also LOVING those throws! Reminds me of garbage day at my house.
I need to start watching Captain JJ more it would seem, he even finished with the best Style kill imo.
Oh, warning there is some delay, that might annoy you, but I just put my own music over it anyway.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

omg that up throw is so beautiful i'm S H O O K mewtwo is shaAaAaAaking

edit: rising Nayru's, iiiinteresting, maybe it could be an anti air

 

[Zeldatwo]

I hope she's as good as you guys claim but Zelda fans have been burnt in the past. Let's wait and see before hyping her up

 

[Katy Parry]

So yes gorls, we're gonna be updating this thread very soon with some new videos and theories on Monday.

Zelda is amazing in this game. I was talking to ESAM and he said she's at least a solid mid tier. She still has issues landing because it's hard for her to respond to people in the air on reaction.
However Phantom incredibly buffs her neutral, and in my videos I'll have on Monday you'll see why. Your whole mix up becomes "Is he gonna approach me?" Throw the Phantom. You can act incredibly quickly after throwing the Phantom while grounded, so Phantom is an excellent option for footsies. It covers roll, it works as an anti air. It creates space, it applies pressure, all things Zelda has always lacked.
I have never been more excited for a game in my life.
I got to meet some top players, and I got super drunk last night and TKBreezy gave us directions home. Lmao. If it wasn't for him I'd be in an ally with no information for you gorls. :X

I can't wait for you all to see. Our gorl didn't lose a SINGLE match. Most of them were recorded MVG League.

The camera guy was like "You're doing things that aren't even on the internet yet! I have to record you when you play." I couldn't help but feel proud. As soon as I saw Phantom's change, my mind blew UP thinking of all the new options it gives her.

Kicks were SUPER easy to land. I mean, if you're next to them and just blindly back air it will sweet spot Everytime. The jumps are incredibly fast in ultimate so your kicks are definitely a call out. Kicks are not for just blindly throwing out, like in Melee. They're a complete read and the speed of your jump, plus the frame 6 speed, plus free sweetspotting is a god send for her character archetype.

Din's fire is much more like din's pressure. If you have a phantom on standby, your din's fire covers farther and first, because dins is incredibly fast.

Nayrus is her emergency button ten FOLD. It is so much better than Smash 4, I refuse to even compare the two games now. If someone gets on top of you, this move covers a lot, has little cool down, intangible frames, and is spammable. It's quick enough to where you miss, you just throw it again until you land it. This creates spaces and immediately sets up for Phantom.

She's just like Diddy now. You don't approach until you have the ground too. Unless you have a hard read, having a SP (Standby Phantom) gives you new control. They have to deal with the Phantom or they will regret it.

Keep in mind, of course, I was getting used to the controls. They have L as grab and R as shield, and coming from Melee I missed a grab or two.

Edit: I'll be analyzing my game play videos and updating the main post or OP later today.

 

[NeonNote]

I pray pray pray she's viable in Ultimate! I personally think it's still too early to make that call, but things are looking up. Despite how bad she was in the past, still always one of the most fun characters.

 

[NeonNote]

Just to clarify, if she charges phantom while she's falling and then releases it, the phantom is released at the height she was when she released it, correct?

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Just to clarify, if she charges phantom while she's falling and then releases it, the phantom is released at the height she was when she released it, correct?

I think so... (I just had to make a gif of this beautiful kill so i could watch it over and over again, looks like it came in handy after all credits to Mystearica for the graceful execution)

It may also release when it's fully charged... i'm no expert tbh ( Katy Parry could probably answer that).

 

[Rickster]

Yes, it works just like Smash 4 in that regard (floating in the air)

Full charge has a delay though, but you can also manually release it before the delay starts ala Smash 4's but with a better hitbox and better frame data all around

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

WAIT U MEAN U CAN HAVE FULL CHARGE DELAYED OR NOT DELAYED??? omg im gonna pee thats so so so so cool

 

[Rickster]

WAIT U MEAN U CAN HAVE FULL CHARGE DELAYED OR NOT DELAYED??? omg im gonna pee thats so so so so cool

It also charges much much faster! Like...somewhere around double Smash 4s speed

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

It also charges much much faster! Like...somewhere around double Smash 4s speed

o m g

 

[「 Derk 」]

I honestly can't bring myself to play smash 4 anymore because of all the confirmed changes to Zelda (and I'm too lazy to find my wii u and plug it up lol). With the change in speed, directional air dodges, end lag, game changes, etc... I'm sitting here like a lost puppy waiting for December because I don't want to relearn any bad habits. I'd like to find time to make it to one of the spots that have a demo but I don't get home from work until 10:30 most nights unfortunately. I can't wait to start labbing with Zelda again when the game launches though! We basically got everything we asked for from sm4sh and extras we didn't even know we wanted. Whoever gave her Mewtwo's up throw... thank you. Not having to rely on elevator OoS or a hard read lightning kick every single stock will be nice and really plays to her defensive nature. The fact that we don't have to hard commit to kill anymore and actually have a neutral game for once makes me excited. All the extra buffs and adjustments are icing on the cake. I think we lost a good bit of our grab confirms though like falling nair or jab into grab. I'm still easily in favor of that trade.

What do you think was our overall best buff(s)? Excluding Phantom Slash because that's in a league of it's own in terms of how much it was buffed/changed. It gave Zelda a new play style and tons of options by itself. That would be everyone's answer lol.
- Up throw. Pretty game changing for reasons I listed above. This is my personal pick of best overall buff. Considering phantom can force people into blocking this is going to be a great option to have around.
- Nayru's Love is a little bit faster apparently? That's a welcomed change since it was already pretty good in sm4sh.
- Jab going from 11 frames to 4 is pretty crazy. It can also kill now. Being a rapid jab now is a nice bonus. Additional OoS option too.
- Fair/Bair changes are pretty nice from what I've seen/heard.
- Din's Fire losing free fall is a welcomed change we have been begging for over a decade to get lol. Not one of the strongest changes but maybe it can see some more use. At the very least there will no longer be accidental deaths from using it and you could say it got buffed due to game mechanic changes. It compliments Phantom Slash much better now since they can be used together for pressure.
- Farore's Wind being a little faster and being able to drift is another nice subtle change.
- Overall boost to speed and mobility. Yeah all characters are faster due to a shift in game design but that's not the important part. Zelda gained a ton from this compared to other characters that already had solid frame data and mobility. Sure, she may still be slower than those characters, but it's a much narrower gap than it has been in previous titles.

 

[Katy Parry]

Nayru's love gets Zelda out of almost anything now. If you whiff an attack, just use nayrus

 

[Peachkid]

So I have been pouring over a ton of footage of Zelda in ultimate, and suffice it to say, I think I'm going to main Zelda this time around.

I think the most notable buffs to Zelda's kit, is probably Down B and Neutral B. However, I think the overall mechanics of universalizing jump squats, faster dash speeds, and the ability to act with anything out of dash really helps her poking and defensive game all around. I don't think I've seen it really all that much, but I'd imagine that retreating turn around dtilt or even single hit jab would be a great way to stop someone from pursuing her in a pinch. I don't know. There's a lot that Zelda has going on that has me cautiously optimistic.

It's kind of nuts how good of a defensive option Nayru's love is right now. I so wish it were possible to see on what frame it's intangibility starts at this very moment. Guess that'll have to wait. (If I had to wager a guess, I'd say it's still around frame 4 or 5 maybe?)

 

[「 Derk 」]

I can't wait to play around with the phantom. The potential for mind games and setups is going to be so much fun.
Just think about this for a second... You set a phantom out and then teleport into someone with Farore's Wind... but they can't punish you for it because the phantom will cover for you immediately after. This in itself is a bait to the opponent, you want them to try and punish you for it. If they decided to shield the Farore's Wind they basically have to stay in shield or forget about you and find some sort of way to dodge the incoming phantom. If they do shield the farore + phantom slash you can follow up with fair/bair/f smash and potentially break a shield or net a grab to kill with up throw. That's nuts assuming you can overlap your attacks like I think you can. I really wanted to see someone playing Zelda try combining phantom slash and farore's wind together but I've watched pretty much every zelda video and I didn't see anything like that.

Lets assume they choose not to shield Farore's Wind and spot dodged, jumped, air dodged, etc... The phantom ends up hitting them and because you are now next to the opponent you can follow up your phantoms attack with a variety of moves. Phantom slash into up air for example or spiking someone that was sent airborne next to the edge of the stage.

Normally Farore's Wind is pretty easy to play around and punish when shielded. Literally all you have to do is listen for the sound and press shield. However, this is not being used as an attack, but more so as an option to get next to the opponent while setting the phantom to attack where you are teleporting to. We are creating a scissor attack for the opponent to deal with while also threatening the option to grab because we are right next to them.

 

[H34rt3r0k3n]

hey guys!!! im a diehard zelda main .... you wont find a more dedicated zelda main than me.
fir instance I purposley go to tournaments and pick zelda against top levek Bayonettas... convincing enough for you? I lose every one of course. but im mainly lookin for smash ultimate zelda players who want to train with me and who would mind teaching a rookie a few thungs so if ur out there nice people come find me or message me

 

[Rickster]

I can't wait to play around with the phantom. The potential for mind games and setups is going to be so much fun.
Just think about this for a second... You set a phantom out and then teleport into someone with Farore's Wind... but they can't punish you for it because the phantom will cover for you immediately after. This in itself is a bait to the opponent, you want them to try and punish you for it. If they decided to shield the Farore's Wind they basically have to stay in shield or forget about you and find some sort of way to dodge the incoming phantom. If they do shield the farore + phantom slash you can follow up with fair/bair/f smash and potentially break a shield or net a grab to kill with up throw. That's nuts assuming you can overlap your attacks like I think you can. I really wanted to see someone playing Zelda try combining phantom slash and farore's wind together but I've watched pretty much every zelda video and I didn't see anything like that.

Lets assume they choose not to shield Farore's Wind and spot dodged, jumped, air dodged, etc... The phantom ends up hitting them and because you are now next to the opponent you can follow up your phantoms attack with a variety of moves. Phantom slash into up air for example or spiking someone that was sent airborne next to the edge of the stage.

Normally Farore's Wind is pretty easy to play around and punish when shielded. Literally all you have to do is listen for the sound and press shield. However, this is not being used as an attack, but more so as an option to get next to the opponent while setting the phantom to attack where you are teleporting to. We are creating a scissor attack for the opponent to deal with while also threatening the option to grab because we are right next to them.

There is one major weakness of the Phantom though. During the delay phase, the Phantom will crumble if Zelda is hit or grabbed. So the Farore's would have to be delayed a little as well for her to be fully covered (although I have a feeling that people will be scared to punish her while her bodyguard is out in the early meta anyway lol)

But despite that I'm still feeling really good about her. I'm very pleased with the changes we've found so far, I'm just hoping she isn't nerfed before/after release or anything. Like the LK hitboxes, for example. The sweetspots are looking waaay easier to land out of Dthrow for instance

 

[H34rt3r0k3n]

I can't wait to play around with the phantom. The potential for mind games and setups is going to be so much fun.
Just think about this for a second... You set a phantom out and then teleport into someone with Farore's Wind... but they can't punish you for it because the phantom will cover for you immediately after. This in itself is a bait to the opponent, you want them to try and punish you for it. If they decided to shield the Farore's Wind they basically have to stay in shield or forget about you and find some sort of way to dodge the incoming phantom. If they do shield the farore + phantom slash you can follow up with fair/bair/f smash and potentially break a shield or net a grab to kill with up throw. That's nuts assuming you can overlap your attacks like I think you can. I really wanted to see someone playing Zelda try combining phantom slash and farore's wind together but I've watched pretty much every zelda video and I didn't see anything like that.

Lets assume they choose not to shield Farore's Wind and spot dodged, jumped, air dodged, etc... The phantom ends up hitting them and because you are now next to the opponent you can follow up your phantoms attack with a variety of moves. Phantom slash into up air for example or spiking someone that was sent airborne next to the edge of the stage.

Normally Farore's Wind is pretty easy to play around and punish when shielded. Literally all you have to do is listen for the sound and press shield. However, this is not being used as an attack, but more so as an option to get next to the opponent while setting the phantom to attack where you are teleporting to. We are creating a scissor attack for the opponent to deal with while also threatening the option to grab because we are right next to them.

or imagine this: you put out a full charged phantom, if the opponet is close enough to you, you run up to them and they instinctively shield then you grab them and back throw them INTO THE PHANTIM SRIKE AND FOLLOW UP WITH A UP AIR OR FAIR/BAIR IF YOU CAN. just sit and think for a min how cool that would look in a match especially if it ended up killing