Data Zelda’s Smash Ultimate Moveset /Move Viability Discussion: Phantom Slash = Huge Neutral Buff

Katy Parry

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#1
(All help is appreciated, this thread is currently under constant revision. Be sure to check back frequently as new information is made avaliable. It will be much more beautiful when I have an off day to devote.)

ITS ZELDA, *****.


It might be jumping the gun six months early, but it looks like Sakurai has given Zelda some TLC and then some. However, here you’ll find every specific detail you could want on Zelda’s Ultimate Moveset.

JAB - Short Flash



This move has been reworked. It is now a frame 4 move, compared to always being 11 frames in previous iterations. While her jab had set knockback, it requires a hard read, and Zelda relies on reads more than anyone else in the cast, arguably.

On top of that, this move is a kill confirm, much like Rosalina’s jab.

You were warned. See the clip below.




DASH ATTACK - Magical Push

FORWARD TILT - Mystic Swipe

DOWNWARD TILT - Light Trip

UPWARD TILT - Protective Sweep

FORWARD SMASH - Shining Palm

DOWNWARD SMASH - Compass Spin

UPWARD SMASH - Powerful Sweep

IN THE AIR

NEUTRAL AERIAL - Magestic Spin

FORWARD AERIAL - Lightning Kick

UPWARD AERIAL - Condensed Explosion

BACKWARD AERIAL - Reverse Lightning Kick



DOWNWARD AERIAL - Meteor Heel

SPECIAL MOVES

STANDARD SPECIAL - Nayru’s Love

FORWARD SPECIAL - Din’s Fire

UPWARD SPECIAL - Farore’s Wind



This move has been been buffed in speed, and she can now drift much sooner and much much farther than in previous iterations. She can still elevator combo, and kill with a read. The first hit can still be DI’d, and the distance travels a shorter range.



DOWNWARD SPECIAL - Phantom Slash

ENTIRELY REWORKED

Phantom Slash has received a MAJOR overhaul in Ultimate.

Phantom Slash now is a single press chargeable move. Pressing B again will release the Phantom as its current charge level, and has SIX charge levels. (Thank you KlicKlac KlicKlac ) You can see this easily by watching the visual cue: counting the pieces as they fall and “shake“ as it forms. (The final piece, the head, is the visual indication the Phantom will be delayed.)
Each level is a different attack. Finally, Releasing the sixth level charge delays the phantom, invoking for crazy sets ups, baits, and edgeguarding. A very “traditional fighter” stylized projectile, allowing her to pressure opponents safely. The Phantom still acts as a shield as well.

Level One - Kick



Level Two - Fist



Level Three - Strike



Level Four - Overhead



Level Five - Slash



Level Six- Slash (Trap)



The move now seems to have priority and will clang and win against any move that doesn’t kill it instantly.


GRAB - Hex Hold

PUMMEL - Flash

FORWARD THROW - Levitation

BACKWARD THROW - Reverse Levitation

UPWARD THROW - Levitation Launch



DOWNWARD THROW - Plasma Beat

 
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BJN39

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#3
I hope this isn't tryna' step in as a data thread gorl I have that on my front burner ;V

But anyways, I just noticed a couple of move name errors I thought I'd mention:
Ftilt - Mystic Sweep
Dtilt- Trip
Usmash - Power Sweep
NAir - Magical Spin
BAir - Reverse Lightning Kick
UAir - Condensed Blast
Grab - Magical Hold
Pummel - Hex
Utrow - Levitation Launch
Dthrow - Plasma Beat

In addition, thanks to Larry Lurr, we can confirm a few characteristics of her moves:
- LKs and DAir still have weak hitboxes on them (gasp, I'm clearly surprised), with DAirs still lingering some amount of time.
- Dthrow seemed to still easily set up into a NAir (angle and endlag all looks pretty SSB4-ish)
- Usmash was seen KOing Link at 117% while fresh. Fingers crossed this means the buffed KO power it received mid-S4 will be staying in full! It certainly looks like it. (pre-patch SSB4 Usmash wouldn't kill till 130-140)

Pure spec:
- Been seeing her LKs a few times in a couple vids... In LL's vid the Landing lag looks easy to act out of. Maybe my eyes are broke but they looked quicker to run from than SSB4's? No confirmation obvi
- Same with NAir. Looked like Larry ran out of the landing rather quickly in one video.
- Have we even seen Dtilt used?
- Can tell now that a huge portion of her moveset seems to be carbon carryover of SSB4. Both good and bad, but expect mostly the same I'd guess. (Probably with a bunch of slight KB adjustments if the physics changes were too different.)
 

BJN39

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#5
Any gameplay video? So we can see lag time and any other improvements if they really exist
Here’s the Larry Lurr gameplay I was mentioning:
https://youtu.be/9e99Me0NjRw

It gives us the most Zelda screen time that I could find atm. Shows off phantom really well, and you can see them use plenty of attacks.
 

Katy Parry

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#6
I hope this isn't tryna' step in as a data thread gorl I have that on my front burner ;V

But anyways, I just noticed a couple of move name errors I thought I'd mention:
Ftilt - Mystic Sweep
Dtilt- Trip
Usmash - Power Sweep
NAir - Magical Spin
BAir - Reverse Lightning Kick
UAir - Condensed Blast
Grab - Magical Hold
Pummel - Hex
Utrow - Levitation Launch
Dthrow - Plasma Beat

In addition, thanks to Larry Lurr, we can confirm a few characteristics of her moves:
- LKs and DAir still have weak hitboxes on them (gasp, I'm clearly surprised), with DAirs still lingering some amount of time.
- Dthrow seemed to still easily set up into a NAir (angle and endlag all looks pretty SSB4-ish)
- Usmash was seen KOing Link at 117% while fresh. Fingers crossed this means the buffed KO power it received mid-S4 will be staying in full! It certainly looks like it. (pre-patch SSB4 Usmash wouldn't kill till 130-140)

Pure spec:
- Been seeing her LKs a few times in a couple vids... In LL's vid the Landing lag looks easy to act out of. Maybe my eyes are broke but they looked quicker to run from than SSB4's? No confirmation obvi
- Same with NAir. Looked like Larry ran out of the landing rather quickly in one video.
- Have we even seen Dtilt used?
- Can tell now that a huge portion of her moveset seems to be carbon carryover of SSB4. Both good and bad, but expect mostly the same I'd guess. (Probably with a bunch of slight KB adjustments if the physics changes were too different.)
See, I changed the names purposely to represent her changes. I didn’t want to use Magicial over and over, and things have changed. Her downthrown is not Plasma Beat, because it’s fire and not....Plasma. and now you made me look stupid in front of EVERYONE UGH WHY


And if u recall correctly, I’ve made the threads when she announced for brawl and smash 4 lmao. 11 long years. Feel free to pin it and edit as u like, but I’m gonna be working on it today, as least cosmetically and info like damage
 
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BJN39

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#7
And if u recall correctly, I’ve made the threads when she announced for brawl and smash 4 lmao. 11 long years. Feel free to pin it and edit as u like, but I’m gonna be working on it today, as least cosmetically and info like damage
Cute, but I’m not talking about who was here first. I’m talking of how I’m planning on carrying over my thorough data thread style from the SSB4 subforum (see: Great Fairy fountain II) to here, but I’m fine with this as a prerelease information thread.

Also plasma is basically even fiercer fire, so why not represent her moves even more fiercely? :^)
 

Katy Parry

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#9
edit: agreed, official strategy guide is nostalgic and is all sources of wisdom. In fifth grade, I took my spring pictures with it. The cover was torn off, so I switched to Zeldas page.
 
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BJN39

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#10
edit: agreed, official strategy guide is nostalgic and is all sources of wisdom. In fifth grade, I took my spring pictures with it. The cover was torn off, so I switched to Zeldas page.
I saw your original comment and I actually do apologize for coming off as a heaux. It wasn’t a cute look. I just got really excited to be ha data gorl and got pressT because I was gonna wait till near release to make something.

I am with you that Zelda’s fierceness (and new buffs) is hype and I’ll stick to contributing here for now instead of picking an Internet fight :4zelda:
 
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Kyle B

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#12
I'm going to copy and paste some Lightning kick data I gathered over here from the main thread, better place for it anyway :)
Leffen played Zelda at 7 hours 35 mins in. (Credit to KlicKlac for the OG Twitch link, converted over to youtube)
Lightning kick sweetspots: 13.3-34.8 (21.5) B-air [7:35:30], 76-102 (26) F-air kills [7:36:24], 0-21.4(21.4) B-air [7:36:43], 54-71 (17) B-air [7:37:34]
killed with F-air at effectively 76% (102% at end of damage calculation) on the right side [7:36:24]
(Credit to KlicKlac for the link)
Lightning kicks:
73-98.2 (15.2) bair [4:42:42], 112-137.2 (25.2) fair kills[4:43:26], 39-61.4 (22.4) fair [4:43:54], 21.7-43.6 (21.9) bair[4:44:23], 58.6-78.7 (20.1) bair[4:44:49]
Faroroe's Wind:
F-Wind sweetspots: 140.8-155.9 (15.1) Kills easily [4:43:35], 158.9-169(10.1) Kills easily [4:45:18]
F-Wind seems to still have that quality that when it hits an object it scales up (you can follow some sparkles to see Zelda traveling, and when it hits the train it shoots up at an angle, speeding up to recover lost time) [4:43:35]
Notes:
Every F-air and B-air sweetspot is on frame 6 every time if youtube's frame by frame is anything to go by.
Auto SH into B-air was 11 frames total. [7:36:42] Video 1
Lightning kick seems to vary from the lowest point (15.2 possibly a minimum of 15?) to the highest point (26, possibly a max of 30?), The average however is a solid 21.134. I find it pretty odd, perhaps there is some super sweetspot like in PM and some radius math shenanigans that give Zelda more damage and knockback the closer she is to the super sweetspot? It's the conclusion I come to anyway...
It seems like it is easier to land in the second video, where it seems 8/10 hits with kick will net a sweetspot, at least it looks like that to me. Idk if Roxy has played Zelda a lot in her free time so I can't be sure.
Edit: Noticed that I accidentally used the wrong link in video 2. Fixed the error.
 
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Katy Parry

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#13
(All help is appreciated, this thread is currently under constant revision. Be sure to check

ITS ZELDA, *****.
DOWNWARD SPECIAL - Phantom Slash


Phantom Slash has received a major overhaul in Ultimate.

Phantom Slash now is a single press chargeable move. Pressing B again will release the Phantom as its current charge level, and has five charge levels. You can see this easily by watching the visual cue: counting the pieces as they fall and “shake“ as it forms. (The final piece, the head, is the visual indication the Phantom will be delayed.)
Each level is a different attack. Finally, Releasing the fifth charge delays the phantom, invoking for crazy sets ups, baits, and edgeguarding. A very “traditional fighter” stylized projectile, allowing her to pressure opponents safely. The Phantom still acts as a shield as well.

Level One - Kick



Level Two - Fist



Level Three - Strike




Level Four - Slash



Level Five - Slash (Trap)




GRAB - Hex Hold

PUMMEL - Flash

FORWARD THROW - Levitation

BACKWARD THROW - Reverse Levitation

UPWARD THROW - Levitation Launch



DOWNWARD THROW - Plasma Beat

I'm going to copy and paste some Lightning kick data I gathered over here from the main thread, better place for it anyway :)
Leffen played Zelda at 7 hours 35 mins in. (Credit to KlicKlac for the OG Twitch link, converted over to youtube)
Lightning kick sweetspots: 13-34 (21) B-air [7:35:30], 76-102 (26) F-air kills [7:36:24], 0-21.4(21.4) B-air [7:36:43], 54-71 (17) B-air [7:37:34]
killed with F-air at effectively 76% (102% at end of damage calculation) on the right side [7:36:24]
(Credit to KlicKlac for the link)
Lightning kicks:
73-98.2 (15.2) bair [4:42:42], 112-137.2 (25.2) fair kills[4:43:26], 39-61.4 (22.4) fair [4:43:54], 21.7-43.6 (21.9) bair[4:44:23], 58.6-78.7 (20.1) bair[4:44:49]
Faroroe's Wind:
F-Wind sweetspots: 140.8-155.9 (15.1) Kills easily [4:43:35], 158.9-169(10.1) Kills easily [4:45:18]
F-Wind seems to still have that quality that when it hits an object it scales up (you can follow some sparkles to see Zelda traveling, and when it hits the train it shoots up at an angle, speeding up to recover lost time) [4:43:35]
Notes:
Every F-air and B-air sweetspot is on frame 6 every time if youtube's frame by frame is anything to go by.
Auto SH into B-air was 11 frames total. [7:36:42] Video 1
Lightning kick seems to vary from the lowest point (15.2 possibly a minimum of 15?) to the highest point (26, possibly a max of 30?), The average however is a solid 21.134. I find it pretty odd, perhaps there is some super sweetspot like in PM and some radius math shenanigans that give Zelda more damage and knockback the closer she is to the super sweetspot? It's the conclusion I come to anyway...
It seems like it is easier to land in the second video, where it seems 8/10 hits with kick will net a sweetspot, at least it looks like that to me. Idk if Roxy has played Zelda a lot in her free time so I can't be sure.
I‘m gathering that the focus on instant short hop aerials has forgiving sweetspots now. So even if you’re not perfect, the move still gives you the satisfaction of the sweet spot, and functions as a decent attack. Now the true sweetspot is a bonus, and probably does 30 damage.

Thats what we are seein guys. No need to panic. They know they got her right this time. Sakurai is sure of it lol
 
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Fortress

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#14
Random Zelda data I posted elsewhere for anybody who wanted it.

Misc Data (taken from https://youtu.be/5eaW0PzBL-M and https://youtu.be/7oXB6ELs7gc )

*shield dropping is still in (second video, 0:57); rev up those sourspot combo starters

I'm totally unsure how staling works in this game, so take this with a grain of salt

n-Air: 2.6 + 2.7 + 2.7 + 5.3 (13.3, may be missing an initial hit), is seen doing five hits later on (1:20) for 16.4
*When Nairo performs this move in the opening of the second video, all five hits connect but the move only does 11.6 damage fresh)
b-Air: 21.5 (sweetspot) (does 21.4 later on for some reason, and at 2:33 it only does 17.0) / 3.7 (sourspot) (does .1 less on a later use like the sweetspot)
f-Air: 25.2 (sweetspot) / 5.0 (sourspot)
f-Tilt: 12.6 (1:43, Zero appears to be near max range if there are more than one hitbox)
u-Tilt: 8.0
d-Tilt: 5.7
f-Smash: 16.3 total (four total hits, the first three deal what appeared to be 1% apiece, with the final hit being the big one)
u-Smash: final hit 5.5
Jab 1: 3.1 (full string appears to do 10.5)
Dash Attack: 9.5 (is seen doing 11.2 while opponent is at 0% at a point)
Up-Throw: 13.9
Down-Throw: 8.3
Pummel: 2.5 (appears to be a two-hit backhand slap)
Nayru's Love: 11.6
Farore's Wind: 6.3 (vanish) / 12.6 (reappear)
Phantom: 12.9
 

Katy Parry

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#16
[*merge*]


Nair follow up into uptilt, true combo. Notice it’s at lower percents

I'm personally excited to see what she has in store once people really get into it with her.
She’s a completely different beast in this game. With her kit changes alone shes totally a different character. So everyone comparing her to Smash 4 Zelda just doesn’t make sense. People are freaking about downthrow not combing into nair at 0, when if they used their brain they’d realize upthrow combos into nair in this game, because of the way hit stun works Now. And the fact her upthrow sends them straight up now, like jigglys throw in 64. It combos into nair, and eventually true combos into Farores at certain percents.
 
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Lil Puddin

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#17
ngl I just care about the frame data at this point. And if rage has made a return or not. It appears that the weak/fresh state of moves has been rearranged to?

I hope this isn't tryna' step in as a data thread gorl I have that on my front burner ;V

But anyways, I just noticed a couple of move name errors I thought I'd mention:
Ftilt - Mystic Sweep
Dtilt- Trip
Usmash - Power Sweep
NAir - Magical Spin
BAir - Reverse Lightning Kick
UAir - Condensed Blast
Grab - Magical Hold
Pummel - Hex
Utrow - Levitation Launch
Dthrow - Plasma Beat
I didn't know that the moves had official names. And if her jab lacks an official name, it should be called "Gorl Bye" for obvious reasons.
 

Katy Parry

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#18
ngl I just care about the frame data at this point. And if rage has made a return or not. It appears that the weak/fresh state of moves has been rearranged to?


I didn't know that the moves had official names. And if her jab lacks an official name, it should be called "Gorl Bye" for obvious reasons.
Yeah, they’re names that are from the 2001 strategy guide. Lol
 

GreyFox86

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#19
She’s a completely different beast in this game. With her kit changes alone shes totally a different character. So everyone comparing her to Smash 4 Zelda just doesn’t make sense. People are freaking about downthrow not combing into nair at 0, when if they used their brain they’d realize upthrow combos into nair in this game, because of the way hit stun works Now. And the fact her upthrow sends them straight up now, like jigglys throw in 64. It combos into nair, and eventually true combos into Farores at certain percents.
That's great to hear. Now I just want to see the rest of how she will turn out. So far I'm seeing some really amazing stuff from her and get impressed with each new find. I just hope she isn't like Brawl version when she looks really good at first then when they find out other techs in every other character, she drops and isn't played much unless it's hardcore Zelda mains.
 
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Katy Parry

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#20
That's great to hear. Now I just want to see the rest of how she will turn out. So far I'm seeing some really amazing stuff from her and get impressed with each new find. I just hope she isn't like Brawl version when she looks really good at first then when they find out other techs in every other character, she drops and isn't played much unless it's hardcore Zelda mains.
I know, it’s just a defense mechanism we throw up because we’ve been hurt in the past. No different than me constantly thinking my boyfriends gonna cheat on me, because the last 4 did. Its hard to see he’s different.

Same applies to Zelda in Smash 5.5 imo
 

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#21
*coughcough* Well I hope things are different, for your sake and well being. BUT I do hope something will be good this time around.
 

Katy Parry

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#22
*coughcough* Well I hope things are different, for your sake and well being. BUT I do hope something will be good this time around.
Lol I wasn’t actually serious, just using a metaphor for Zelda.

I’ve been slacking on the gifs. Need to go through leffen match again
 

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#26
Me when there's a new bit of info for SmashU: lol it's just a small bit of info, nothing to even acknowledge for now until we get more

Also me if the info is about Zelda:

Phantom has one more stage where it slashes downwards without its head!
That'll be good for mix-ups, since it's so fast and can swat people who are trying to jump. Though something tells me projectiles in this game won't really be a good thing if everyone's so fast anyway. We'll just have to wait for the official stats or demo or whatever. I just hope everyone got a speed boost while those fast PoS like ZSS/Little Bara/Sonic/etc didn't get speed boosts.

Savage. Her final smash seems to instantly kill the victim. Perhaps at a certain percentage.
Do they get launched or do they just get smUshed into nothingness with volatile glowing sass?
 

BJN39

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#28
It looks like Zelda's really obliterates her opponents, but it could be percentage dependent. I doubt it kills at 0.
Probably any Final Smash with delete powers will act the same as Bayonetta’s, where the target has to cross the 100% damage threshold (or a high threshold of some sort) before the final blow for it to actually kill.
 

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#29
But despite the final smash, does anyone think that will be a thing when tourney happen or even casuals?
 

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#33
Okay, so can we talk about the fact that Phantom’s many different stages of substantially increase the QoL (quality of life) of the move.

There’s so many hit boxes and uses for all the differing charges.

So many different mix ups in a short amount of time! Meaning this move is very hard to master, but very hard to deal with.
 
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#35
I mean final smash's aren't gonna be a thing in tourney play, unless some TO wants to prove me wrong. But I do love the Tien ref of her FS.
Oh that. Ye, I don't see Final Smashes being a thing. If they could be earned by sustaining a certain amount of damage or by dealing a certain amount of damage, then maybe there'd be a chance. But having an awkward game of floating volleyball mid-match to get the insta-kill ball would be silly.


Okay, so can we talk about the fact that Phantom’s many different stages of substantially increase the QoL (quality of life) of the move.

There’s so many hit boxes and uses for all the differing charges.

So many different mix ups in a short amount of time! Meaning this move is very hard to master, but very hard to deal with.
tbh her Phantom was one of the things keeping her viable in Sm4sh. It helped soak up damage and was a tool for forcing opponents to move a certain way so she could use her very clunky/slow kit. Without Phantom, she would've been in a much worse spot.

Then again, that doesn't really matter when you're already bottom tier.
SecretZPop Smol.png
 

Katy Parry

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#36
Well I think since you can't run through someone anymore, maybe it helps Phantom even further, because it truly forces the jump.
 

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#38
That's actually low-key confirmed as an actual bug.
Sakurai: We've removed the bug that made it impossible to run through fighters or summoned objects.

Speedy Heauxes: YAYAYAYA EZ CLAPORINO

Sakurai: And now all summoned objects will just have giant hitboxes instead. So for example, Zelda's Phantom Knight is 100% covered in moving hitboxes. Touching any part of the knight will deal damage and knockback.

Zelda: :secretkpop:
 

Katy Parry

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#39
That's actually low-key confirmed as an actual bug.
How is that low key confirmed as a bug? They would have to have intentionally made new data for the characters stage collision boxes to detect other characters as a “wall”.

Mark my words, it will stay. It Is just another new mechanic that forces stage control. In any other fighting game you cannot run through your opponent. You walk around them, or jump around them, or hell be like Link in Soul Calibur and slide under their legs. It doesn’t make sense. It is clearly intentional, they’ve even show Marth on Treehouse being able to not run past Donkey Kong, like, on purpose... if anything, maybe this is another mechanic buff overall. This prevents losing stage control. You don’t work as hard zoning because they can’t run past you if you’re grounded. Allows you to call out jumps, or don’t call it out and punish etc. but a bug of this....um, creation...that affects every character wouldn’t have made in this far into the development of the game. Sakurai wouldn’t have not noticed that. Maybe wavedashing not working correctly, and bayou witch twist still not having increased KBG the last hit (so it doesn’t always combo into itself or anything rather) yeah those are glitches.
 
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Kyle B

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#40
Phantom has one more stage where it slashes downwards without its head!

Phantom also appears to have no respawn timer. You see it getting destroyed here, and Zelda can rebuild it immediately.
Another stage :surprised:? My only complaint about all these stages is that it seems pretty hard to control which one comes out, seems like you have some small windows to release the button with a low-key visual cue all in all...But the move is getting better and better :).
 
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