Your Opinion on the Brawl Rule Set

[Dojo]

Who the hell says the whole point of competitive smash is about counter picking...

Our top 5 players all use primarily one character, the only exception being me when I have to. And 3 of the 5 of us primarily use only neutrals to CP.

Competitive smash is not about counter picking, it's about winning. You old gen piece of worthless baby churning trash.

 

[RT]

We shouldnt have to get to this point.

Unfortunately, it takes something radical to make a change.

Let MK fulfill his true potential. Allow IDC, planking, scrooging, and unlimited ledgegrabs. Let's see what the results are. Let's see if attendance rises or drops.

Will he be broken then? One way to find out...

 

[Xyro77]

Who the hell says the whole point of competitive smash is about counter picking...

its been like that since day one. all you know is like one year of melee and 4 years BRAWL.

Our top 5 players all use primarily one character, the only exception being me when I have to. And 3 of the 5 of us primarily use only neutrals to CP.

this has nothing to do with what im talking about. though if you care, razer was picking up a 2ndary for pikachu.

Competitive smash is not about counter picking, it's about winning.

..................you are completely missing the point.

You old gen piece of worthless baby churning trash.

i dont churn out babies, thats the other inferior sex that does that deed. the kind that belongs in das kitchen making me a sammich

 

[Gnes]

Unfortunately, it takes something radical to make a change.

Let MK fulfill his true potential. Allow IDC, planking, scrooging, and unlimited ledgegrabs. Let's see what the results are. Let's see if attendance rises or drops.

Will he be broken then? One way to find out...

I completely agree. Accept the challenge please. But honestly there shouldnt be a point to doing this. Because the answer is obvious. ESPECIALLY DOUBLE MK. I'm with vinnie on that one. Most pros who went to Apex will agree.

 

[Nike.]

Knowing Razer, he'd pick up Fox for Pikachu.

 

[Espy Rose]

I'd love to counterpick stages if my character could do that against Snake, Lucario, Meta Knight, Diddy Kong, or anyone else in top-high tier.

 

[Sanji Himura]

Who the hell says the whole point of competitive smash is about counter picking...

Our top 5 players all use primarily one character, the only exception being me when I have to. And 3 of the 5 of us primarily use only neutrals to CP.

Competitive smash is not about counter picking, it's about winning. You old gen piece of worthless baby churning trash.

I think this highlights a very critical point about competitive Smash. It isn't about counter picking, because those who would counter pick characters, do not, but it is the skill level of the player and the stage that they select, which is probably random about 43% of the time.

Look, Xyro, Unity may have banned MK, but if the community continues to play exactly the same way that they did prior to the ban in the way that I mentioned, what was the point? All it really did was improve IC, Olimar and D3 standings in the tier list.

I think that as a pro-ban TO, you should have a burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt that MK is as broken as you claim he is, and not by flashing Tournament Results and Money won, because those numbers can be manipulated.

 

[Denti]

Competitive smash rules are created by us. Smash bros doesn't have to be about counter picking and winning game 1. This caters to people who use 2 or more characters, which the game shouldn't be about.

 

[RT]

I completely agree. Accept the challenge please. But honestly there shouldnt be a point to doing this. Because the answer is obvious.

Unfortunately, the MK ban decision needs to include MK's true potential, not the restricted one that currently exists. If you want to evaluate a hypothesis, you need sample data that is untouched and pure.

The question is, without any restrictions, is MK fundamentally broken?

Just have the current ruleset but remove all the rules about planking, scrooging, and ledgegrabs.

Let's see what happens. No one will argue the results.

 

[Espy Rose]

I don't see why not, Denti. It really should cater to them.

 

[Sync.]

People who play more characters obviously put more work into the game and deserve the win lol so that made no sense.

People should listen to Xyro, Gnes and RT. Ugh MK debate is so stupid. We already know Texas will have him legal because of flawed logic and cry babies at least don't kill stages for the damn bat (Dojo I'm not talking about you, you should know the people I'm talking about). I'm not arguing about this, it'll go in a circle and nothing will be done. I'm writing a ruleset right now anyway. I don't care for asking the public anymore because they're indecisive and they can deal with what decision is given to them. Smash is dying and I've honestly tried everything in my power to stop it but I just can't. This is so ****ing frustrating

This game is stupid and the community is immature and stupid. I hate hate hate hate hate it. All people are just following their damn agendas and bandwagoning on anything that happens. I hate that the Japanese won Apex, it made 80% of the community ****ing ********

 

[Sanji Himura]

I'll do one as well, Sync, and we will compare notes.

 

[Espy Rose]

I don't mind Japan winning Apex. What REALLY bothers me is how blown out of proportion it was made to be, like they completely obliterated the competition or something when that clearly wasn't the case.

 

[NeoBatou]

People who play more characters obviously put more work into the game and deserve the win lol so that made no sense.

People should listen to Xyro, Gnes and RT.

All people are just following their damn agendas and bandwagoning on anything that
happens. I hate that the Japanese won Apex, it made 80% of the community ****ing ********

Personal agenda or not, just let them have their wish. The whole Apex thing was just blown WAY out of proportion, that's all I have to say about that.
Let's do this RT style.....I like the direction he's going with this.
Sometimes people need to learn firsthand why communities place bans on some characters.

Gill for Third Strike
Akuma for Street Fighter Turbo

Just two examples really.....look them up.
It's all too familiar for me. I've seen it done before, it wouldn't be the first time seeing this kind of debate.

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

LGL is still needed, even without MK (the ledge itself is pretty OP, seeing how safe you can stay on it; MK just does the best on the ledge). As for counterpicking stages, I believe there should be subtle counterpicks, not extreme ones like RC, Brinstar, PS2.

Having less stages = less fun is a matter of opinion. This game competitevely should be more about player skill and winning, rather than extreme counterpicking.

The less random and/or static stage interferences, the better for competitive metagame.

Gnes, you can beat every MK main in Texas. You lose to Ally's, M2K's, Anti's, or whoever else's MK I can't think atm, because THEY ARE BETTER PLAYERS THAN YOU, NOT BECAUSE OF THE CHARACTER ITSELF. You even beat SoCal MKs like Tyrant, Tearbear, etc. At Apex 2012, you lost to DEHF's Falco, and ESAM's ICs in bracket (no MK players). You're just one example, explaining how MK is not that great, not enough to be banworthy.

When will people realize this?

 

[Sync.]

Oooooooh now he's done it. How dare you say that about the Fire Lord...

 

[RT]

Personal agenda or not, just let them have their wish. The whole Apex thing was just blown WAY out of proportion, that's all I have to say about that.
Let's do this RT style.....I like the direction he's going with this.
Sometimes people need to learn firsthand why communities place bans on some characters.

Gill for Third Strike
Akuma for Street Fighter Turbo

Just two examples really.....look them up.
It's all too familiar for me. I've seen it done before, it wouldn't be the first time seeing this kind of debate.

See, that is the way I see it. Those communities didn't try to force rules like "no aerial fireballs" or ''no 100% stun combos", they just played the character as is and decided to ban them. They didn't institute rules to "surgically" keep them "balanced."

I don't understand why the Smash community makes such an effort to keep one character which has clearly divided the community and causes stupid bickering.

Just let MK be played as is, without these limitations, and let's see what happens.

We can try guessing the results, but until it happens, we'll never truly know.

 

[NeoBatou]

See, that is the way I see it. Those communities didn't try to force rules like "no aerial fireballs" or ''no 100% stun combos", they just played the character as is and decided to ban them. They didn't institute rules to "surgically" keep then "balanced."

I don't understand why the Smash community makes such an effort to keep one character which has clearly divided the community and causes stupid bickering.

Just let MK be played as is, without these limitations, and let's see what happens.

We can try guessing the results, but until it happens, we'll never truly know.

Exactly RT.
I was there when we decided to ban ST Akuma.
Reminds me of this debate, but we had the balls to let him have his full potential.
It was a unanimous decision except for the small amount of people who ***** because they didn't like the idea of playing characters with limitations.

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

Oooooooh now he's done it. How dare you say that about the Fire Lord...

I am AeroLink the SoulMaster!

 

[RT]

Exactly RT.
I was there when we decided to ban ST Akuma.
Reminds me of this debate, but we had the balls to let him have his full potential.
It was a unanimous decision except for the small amount of people who ***** because they didn't like the idea of playing characters with limitations.

Sounds familiar...

So I say again, we should let this experiment happen. There's no reason not to do it right? End this conflict right here, right now.

 

[KoNfucius]

People who play more characters obviously put more work into the game and deserve the win lol so that made no sense.

I wish more ppl thought like this. Before the ban I was called a win stealing MK main. After the ban im called a win stealing counter picker.

 

[Zano]

Pwii did ****ing work this weekend even without MK, and with multiple characters over a short period of time. Not to mention Dojo did the same thing and has been getting like top 2 or 3 (can't remember) at every DFW tourney he went to since trying out new characters. Anyone can pick up a new character if you're already a good enough player, no one should be making excuses about it.

 

[Espy Rose]

The exception is obviously Meta Knight.

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

lol Espy, I dare you to pick up MK, and see how well you'll do.

 

[Psychoace]

If stages drastically effect the meta-game to the point to where mk isn't as dominate in Japan or Europe is he really worth banning?

 

[Espy Rose]

Meta Knight's boring as hell, so no.

 

[Gnes]

LGL is still needed, even without MK (the ledge itself is pretty OP, seeing how safe you can stay on it; MK just does the best on the ledge). As for counterpicking stages, I believe there should be subtle counterpicks, not extreme ones like RC, Brinstar, PS2.

Having less stages = less fun is a matter of opinion. This game competitevely should be more about player skill and winning, rather than extreme counterpicking.

The less random and/or static stage interferences, the better for competitive metagame.

Gnes, you can beat every MK main in Texas. You lose to Ally's, M2K's, Anti's, or whoever else's MK I can't think atm, because THEY ARE BETTER PLAYERS THAN YOU, NOT BECAUSE OF THE CHARACTER ITSELF. You even beat SoCal MKs like Tyrant, Tearbear, etc. At Apex 2012, you lost to DEHF's Falco, and ESAM's ICs in bracket (no MK players). You're just one example, explaining how MK is not that great, not enough to be banworthy.

When will people realize this?

Bro, u right. So when they plank, ledge camp, scrooge, and remain essentially untouchable that's because their better players. You real, You real.

Ally's the only one of the 3 that I would confidently have a problem with outside of mk. Maybe Anti too, but he plays snake I think. And snake is generally pretty free.

Third, why did you bring up that I lose to non-mk players? Can I not lose to non-mk mains? R u saying good people only lose to mk? R u dumb?

And this better player argument is annoying. If he's better, like your saying. He wouldn't even stress on mk. He could just move on to another character and succeed. Since he's better than me, and probably people better than me. Because I can do it. People on my level can do it. So I'm pretty sure he can. Prime example: Dojo whos now ****** without mk and in a sense scarier.

I'll just repeat what RT said and not respond to idiots. If he's really not banworthy. Take off the limiters, and see what happens.

 

[Espy Rose]

So basically we should give back Juggernaut's helmet.
Sweet.

Not sarcastic by the way.

 

[NeoBatou]

Bro, u right. So when they plank, ledge camp, scrooge, and remain essentially untouchable that's because their better players. You real, You real.

Ally's the only one of the 3 that I would confidently have a problem with outside of mk. Maybe Anti too, but he plays snake I think. And snake is generally pretty free.

Third, why did you bring up that I lose to non-mk players? Can I not lose to non-mk mains? R u saying good people only lose to mk? R u dumb?

And this better player argument is annoying. If he's better, like your saying. He wouldn't even stress on mk. He could just move on to another character and succeed. Since he's better than me, and probably people better than me. Because I can do it. People on my level can do it. So I'm pretty sure he can. Prime example: Dojo whos now ****** without mk and in a sense scarier.

I'll just repeat what RT said and not respond to idiots. If he's really not banworthy. Take off the limiters, and see what happens.

Thanks for keeping a level head.
Well Said.

So basically we should give back Juggernaut's helmet.
Sweet.

Not sarcastic by the way.

Espy wouldn't be Espy if you gave him all the emeralds. It would take out all the fun of being Sonic the Hedgehog.

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

Bro, u right. So when they plank, ledge camp, scrooge, and remain essentially untouchable that's because their better players. You real, You real.

Ally's the only one of the 3 that I would confidently have a problem with outside of mk. Maybe Anti too, but he plays snake I think. And snake is generally pretty free.

Third, why did you bring up that I lose to non-mk players? Can I not lose to non-mk mains? R u saying good people only lose to mk? R u dumb?

And this better player argument is annoying. If he's better, like your saying. He wouldn't even stress on mk. He could just move on to another character and succeed. Since he's better than me, and probably people better than me. Because I can do it. People on my level can do it. So I'm pretty sure he can. Prime example: Dojo whos now ****** without mk and in a sense scarier.

I'll just repeat what RT said and not respond to idiots. If he's really not banworthy. Take off the limiters, and see what happens.

Exactly. Great players don't just lose to other great MK players ONLY; that's my point.

Also, LGL IS needed, even without MK, because certain other characters can do the same. Didn't Zac plank hardcore at Phase11/Quakecon and beat you and Razer? Somebody correct/confirm me on this.

 

[NeoBatou]

Exactly. Great players don't just lose to other great MK players ONLY; that's my point.

Next time, just say that great players don't just lose to other great MK players only

 

[UltimateRazer]

Knowing Razer, he'd pick up Fox for Pikachu.

I want you to think about this really carefully.

 

[Player-4]

Why can people not read sarcasm over the internet -__-

 

[Gnes]

Exactly. Great players don't just lose to other great MK players ONLY; that's my point.

Also, LGL IS needed, even without MK, because certain other characters can do the same. Didn't Zac plank hardcore at Phase11/Quakecon and beat you and Razer? Somebody correct/confirm me on this.

He planked Razer one game. He didn't plank me at all. He just outplayed us. There are better examples out there. Please broaden your search. GAW can't scrooge. How about mk? Gaw can be stopped with basic techs, not frame perfect edge-dropping which is nearly impossible in game.

Don't even try that "pit/gaw can plank too, so their just as bad as mk."
BS.


No one as far as I read said anything about great non-mk mains only losing mk mains. This doesn't change the fact that he CLEARLY dominates dubs to an absurd degree and majorly wins at nationals/regionals. But none of this really matters that much. Take off the rules. Thats it.

 

[Espy Rose]

Q1. What is your opinion on the Meta Knight ban?
I'm still as pro-ban as ever. I'd love to keep the bat banned and as far away from the competitive community as possible. The character's too ridiculous, and brings with him a ton of problems that to this day, the community splits over. I feel like the community down here in general is more accepting of it than against it, but that may be just because there's very few MK mains in Texas, so there's little to nothing for players to lose.

Q2. In your opinion, should double metaknight be allowed in doubles?
Absolutely not. I honestly think no character should be able to be doubled up on a single team in 2v2 play, but that's only because I enjoy variety, and I'm fully aware that that's not a legitimate reasoning to enforce such a rule.

Q3. In your opinion, what should be the legal stages?
In no order (and I won't differentiate between starter or counterpick here):
Battlefield
Halberd
Castle Siege
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 1
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville
Frigate Orpheon
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)

I don't mind Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, or PictoChat being legal either, but I can definitely understand the reasons for banning those, and I accept those bans without much issue at all.

Q4. In your opinion, how long should the timer be? (Also including the ledge-grab-limit)
Eight minutes is fine. I also think that the LGL is unnecessary. Spectator enjoyment and MK's ridiculousness on the ledge are not reasons that I think are justified, nor are the reasons brought up that involve Game & Watch, Pit, or any of the other "flavor of the month" ledge characters.

As an additional note, I wouldn't mind a stock count drop either. I'm actually in support of a 2-Stock per game rule change. It'd make matches shorter, which would give more time for tournaments to run. More time means more opportunities for friendlies, money matches, and other events that help create more community involvement through hype, participating, and just building up relationships in general that help keep the community going strong.

It'd also make Lucario less of an aura ***** *****.
Love you Trela.

Q5. In your opinion, what should a universal ruleset be?
I actually don't support a "universal ruleset", unless by that, you mean it as a template.
I loved the BBR recommended ruleset because it wasn't enforced for any reason. It was simply used as a template for TOs to create their own unique rules for their events. I've always been in favor of that kind of set up.

So basically, the TO and event organizers should be given all the liberties in the world to create a ruleset without missing out on any type of perks (like the sticky and advertisement shindigs AiB and SWF awarded URC-Ruleset tournaments).

==========

That's all I gotta say about it all.

 

[DallasPhat]

La la la la la la
La la la la la la
La la la la la la
1 2 3 4
La la la la la la
La la la la la la
Korean jumbo, mister!!

 

[Gnes]

La la la la la la
La la la la la la
La la la la la la
1 2 3 4
La la la la la la
La la la la la la
Korean jumbo, mister!!

I cu foo.

I'm go on akp just for that lol.

 

[DallasPhat]

I cu foo.

I'm go on akp just for that lol.

LMFAO, I havent checked akp in a while.

 

[Mew2King]

I didn't even plank you and adhd last time (last 2 times) at all, i went all aggro to prove I could win with just skill and fighting. I made sure to not plank at all that entire tournament.

 

[Gnes]

So if I prove you wrong, challenge accepted?