Social Young Link Discussion

[Phez_]

I've been playing around with YL a lot recently and found some pointless 'tech'. (If you want to call it that)

1. YL can make his own 'Marth killer' kinda setup using a bomb.
• Roll to the edge of the stage or a platform
• do a half-length wavedash away from the edge (towards centre stage)
• pull out a bomb and throw it upwards
• dash attack the edge and buffer a light-shield using z
• if the bomb lands it will explode, and if only the explosion hits your shield, ta-da!

2. Another bomb/fastfall trick. Jump, double jump and as soon as you start to decline/fall, throw a bomb downwards. Fastfall immediately afterwards and then hit z just before you or the bomb hit the ground.

(Sorry if these are known and I'm a bit late to the party. )

 

[The Merc]

Hey Young Link mains. Are you guys going to nominate Young Link for Smash 4 in that DLC competition Nintendo is running? I know I am.

 

[Jimmology]

Anyone have advice on what to do if you land your hookshot tether onto the ledge but you know you didn't sweet spot? Waiting it out and then doing an up b is super sketchy but so is just hoping up and the fast falling down. Do you guys generally just go for the wall jump if you know that you missed the sweet spot?
Also does anyone know of a sweet spot guide for all the stages that I can reference?
inb4 A good Young Link never misses a sweet spot

 

[Rosy]

Anyone have advice on what to do if you land your hookshot tether onto the ledge but you know you didn't sweet spot? Waiting it out and then doing an up b is super sketchy but so is just hoping up and the fast falling down. Do you guys generally just go for the wall jump if you know that you missed the sweet spot?
Also does anyone know of a sweet spot guide for all the stages that I can reference?
inb4 A good Young Link never misses a sweet spot

What I usually do (and this works against almost all characters with the exception of marth) is I with zair then once I connect I with press z again to grap ledge, but I instictively fade away from the ledge so if I dont grab it I am out of reach for anybody to attack me (my friend who plays spacies constantly will try to d smash and f smash and misses becuase of the way I space it). then you can sweet sot up b from the faded away angle.

 

[Ficachu]

Hey Young Link mains. Are you guys going to nominate Young Link for Smash 4 in that DLC competition Nintendo is running? I know I am.

Definitely. Toon link is trash

 

[Ficachu]

Anyone have advice on what to do if you land your hookshot tether onto the ledge but you know you didn't sweet spot? Waiting it out and then doing an up b is super sketchy but so is just hoping up and the fast falling down. Do you guys generally just go for the wall jump if you know that you missed the sweet spot?
Also does anyone know of a sweet spot guide for all the stages that I can reference?
inb4 A good Young Link never misses a sweet spot

What I usually do for a hook shot recovery is immediately press z again and then do a wall jump up, and then following that with an air dodge up towards the stage so I land behind the person edge guarding me.

 

[party]

and then following that with an air dodge up towards the stage so I land behind the person edge guarding me.

air dodging on as a mixup is great but is very easily punishable if your opponent makes note the first time you do it

 

[The Merc]

Definitely. Toon link is trash

Then if you want to come along to the Young Link DLC thread and give you support

http://smashboards.com/threads/dawn-of-the-3d-remake-young-link-for-dlc-mm3d-released.324215/

All are invited.

 

[Jimmology]

What I usually do for a hook shot recovery is immediately press z again and then do a wall jump up, and then following that with an air dodge up towards the stage so I land behind the person edge guarding me.

Do you know if that strategy works if a Marth is guarding you with a spaced forward smash? Obviously they could still blast you with an f smash if you go for the high sweet spot and try to wall jump on the ledge but if you go for the lower one and miss I feel like you could wall jump then air dodge just in time and recover safely do to the ending lag of the missed f smash. I haven't tried this method before but it seems like it could work except on Yoshi's story because the curvature of the stage allows the f smash hit box to go very far down.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

It works if they swing as you are moving up (most people's instinct). If they wait for you to airdodge, you will get hit, but hopefully you've touched the ground and gotten your jump back at that point

 

[EddyBearr]

If you use zair on a Marth edgeguarding you, you can basically be guaranteed to get your jump back, and the Marth might not be prepared for it. It would likely also be a weaker punish (Marth's grab or close range fsmash)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

He could also upb which is just as strong as tipper fsmash. And grab -> stuff isn't very good for you either. I used to think this matchup was possible but after playing Vro and Dart I don't think so anymore.

 

[Jimmology]

He could also upb which is just as strong as tipper fsmash. And grab -> stuff isn't very good for you either. I used to think this matchup was possible but after playing Vro and Dart I don't think so anymore.

Do you have any of your games versus those two people you mentioned recorded? Can you provide me with links if they are on film?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

No it was all friendlies and they destroyed me xD. They beat my fox solidly already, so the little boy hardly stood a chance.

 

[EddyBearr]

I find it really hard to tell if it's possible or not. I need to see Axe's YL vs at least The Moon, if not PPU.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah, Axe makes it look possible when he plays Tai but there is a definite skill difference. Marth is probably a little easier than sheik and the spacies, but not by enough to make it a viable matchup.

 

[Jimmology]

I think it's possible YL has never had a dedicated main before. Sure Axe and Armada advanced the character by so much but he was given up on Armada once people learned the counter play. Also mains like D20 and Laijin have also done a great job but I don't think they go to a lot of majors and they're not super dedicated anymore. I'll say that it's not possible once a dedicated and smart Young Link main says it is. For now I think to many people give up on him because the stress of wanting to win a tournament. I think there are so many people that just shrug him off when they learn he has a bad matchup vs FFS instead of learning the counter play. No one is willing to take the beating in order to learn how to be a good Young Link player when they can just do mediocre as a fox main and decrease their loses. Just look what Armada did vs Hbox in ceo! Sure Hbox has a **** fox and a **** falco but he still understands the game to an extent that many others dream of. If a player as smart as Armada stuck with Young Link I'm sure it can be possible.
TL;DR No dedicated Young Link main, still possible

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Well i'm not axe by far, but I'm giving it a shot. Right now i'm trying to take a set off everyone in chicago with YL (minus Kels, Dart, Vro -- i'd be lucky enough to beat them with Fox).

I have some ideas about the falco matchup, particularly to beat lasers. For one, you can pull a bomb as he shoots a laser to cancel the pull animation. Once you have a bomb, you can throw the bomb at lasers to make it bounce, which protects you from a few lasers and his approach. It seems like YL does just fine with Falco's camp game, maybe a little better than other characters. His aerial hitboxes are still a big problem, but if I play hit and run with bombs and dont get pinned i think it can work out. Maybe.

 

[Rosy]

Well i'm not axe by far, but I'm giving it a shot. Right now i'm trying to take a set off everyone in chicago with YL (minus Kels, Dart, Vro -- i'd be lucky enough to beat them with Fox).

I have some ideas about the falco matchup, particularly to beat lasers. For one, you can pull a bomb as he shoots a laser to cancel the pull animation. Once you have a bomb, you can throw the bomb at lasers to make it bounce, which protects you from a few lasers and his approach. It seems like YL does just fine with Falco's camp game, maybe a little better than other characters. His aerial hitboxes are still a big problem, but if I play hit and run with bombs and dont get pinned i think it can work out. Maybe.

I actually recently figured out the falco matchup. You need to camp the platforms with bombs. If falco over commits, you can throw a bomb and then aeriel attack. Then when hes on the platforms and you're on the ground, you can u air string. If you get the in their slow get up on a platform you can grab>d throw> d smash. Edge gaurding is really easy becuase YL has around the same tools as marth. Whatever you do, do not try and win the neutral, you won't. You need to play the platform game. This is where sheild dropping can be very important and I think this is where Armada learned to sheild drop. There is a way to DD>hold down>sheild and that can help in YLs platform game.

 

[Jimmology]

I've been trying to work on something that I think would be really helpful in the falco matchup. When holding a bomb on a platform you can shield drop out of whatever pressure he's playing and z drop a bomb onto the platform and then he will be in the explosion and you will be below him free to up air. It's really really good against him but is very hard to execute properly. Also I think when ledge guarding forward tilt is underrated and people should use it more. Also sometimes on battlefield or Yoshi's when a fox/falco is recovering I like to quickly cover the higher option by tossing a bomb up from underneath the platforms. You can usually follow up with a fair/nair if the bomb hit's and if it doesn't you'll be fine because the platform is above you and you still can cover the ledge option.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yes, to go along with that, I think Z dropping your bomb is the fastest option out of shield, and if you hold backwards when short hopping you can avoid the explosion. This can be used to break falco's pressure any time you have a bomb.

 

[EddyBearr]

I'll try going all Young Link at a local once I get to be a high B tier in MN (Slayer being a sole S tier.)

 

[Laijin]

Yes, to go along with that, I think Z dropping your bomb is the fastest option out of shield, and if you hold backwards when short hopping you can avoid the explosion. This can be used to break falco's pressure any time you have a bomb.

Correct. You don't have to really worry about the explosion though usually. You can also jump out of shield, z-drop the bomb, have it hit them and then regrab it. The bomb has multiple hitboxes and if they hit the tip of it after a z-drop it won't explode. So you can put them in hitstun and then actually get the bomb back. Its pretty neat.

But no, I don't advise doing it in shine pressure. The shine pressure will rek u if you tried it. Its good vs other characters that are in your face though and very good if someone is chasing you.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think its good if you pick your timing well, particularly after the shine. I'd have to look at the frame data closer, but if you jump out of shield after shieldstun, and falco jumps out of shine ASAP, both jumpsquats should end at roughly the same time (give or take a frame or two). I believe Z dropping the bomb is frame 1, so even if they nair/dair instantly they will kick the bomb. This should be the equivalent to shine out of shield for YL. One other benefit is if they get stuck in their shine and you zdrop a bomb on it you put the shine into a ton of lag and get a free punish. Not that it is anything to be relied on, but it does happen here and there.

Also, thanks for the z-drop -> regrab trick, that may come in handy

 

[atara]

why does everyone say moonwalk is useless? i get that bair isn't very good but it seems like you could at least get bthrow->moonwalk->bair as a combo at the right %s, and if you jump off facing the stage you can tether pretty fast

 

[Rosy]

I just want to represent my young link crew. I got 4th at a local using young link and dominated some marths, foxs and falcons. I want to add a few pointers about YLs neutral and combo game that have really helped.

Switching up the way you throw projectiles helps you confuse your opponent.

YLs nair is godly and should be used a lot more.

His bair is a great way to get opponents in combos, away from the edge, and begin combos if your opponent lets go of sheild.

YLs spot dodge is underused and amazing. Very little lag and can punish straight out of it.

Spacing with fair is the most helpful tool I have realized, I have begun using double jump fair then I will either:
jab if I space it right to create sheild presure
dash dance back to dash attack
or dash dance grab.

This is a key a thing that I think all young links should incorporate cause many opponets sheild grab and if you can space around their shield, you will have a high advantage on the competition.

Also, I have incorporated all of YLs tricks on the edge (bomb stalls, arrow stalls, grapple wall jump double jump bairs). This has been the best mix up for opponents and has not only guarenteed my spot back on stage, but either gives you a projectile, or puts them in hit stun.

Hope this info is informational.

 

[Jimmology]

I just want to represent my young link crew. I got 4th at a local using young link and dominated some marths, foxs and falcons. I want to add a few pointers about YLs neutral and combo game that have really helped.

Switching up the way you throw projectiles helps you confuse your opponent.

YLs nair is godly and should be used a lot more.

His bair is a great way to get opponents in combos, away from the edge, and begin combos if your opponent lets go of sheild.

YLs spot dodge is underused and amazing. Very little lag and can punish straight out of it.

Spacing with fair is the most helpful tool I have realized, I have begun using double jump fair then I will either:
jab if I space it right to create sheild presure
dash dance back to dash attack
or dash dance grab.

This is a key a thing that I think all young links should incorporate cause many opponets sheild grab and if you can space around their shield, you will have a high advantage on the competition.

Also, I have incorporated all of YLs tricks on the edge (bomb stalls, arrow stalls, grapple wall jump double jump bairs). This has been the best mix up for opponents and has not only guarenteed my spot back on stage, but either gives you a projectile, or puts them in hit stun.

Hope this info is informational.

Thanks a lot I got 3rd in a regional pool this weekend against Machiavelli and a Marth player so unfortunately I didn't get into bracket but I really feel myself improving. Do you think you could highlight the stream (if there is one) or just post videos of your matches? It would be really helpful.

 

[Rosy]

Thanks a lot I got 3rd in a regional pool this weekend against Machiavelli and a Marth player so unfortunately I didn't get into bracket but I really feel myself improving. Do you think you could highlight the stream (if there is one) or just post videos of your matches? It would be really helpful.

There was no stream unfortunately, but next time I am going to bring mine and try and set one up So I can have some videos.

 

[kaptinkillem]

I've been thinking a lot about basic young link tech, and I think that YL, benifits heavily from basic tech that every charecter has. His edge cancel are easy to do and extremely potent for throwing out safe arials like dair(Axe does this a lot). Pivot nair and fair, are extremely good for stuffing approaches something that young link is very good at. Shield drop is very good with young link because of his poor grab, and his up-air is amazing at poking and combo starting. I also think in general many young links(with the exception of Axe of course) are too trigger happy when it come to going on the platforms and pulling bombs. If you get a hit you should maintain center stage, I think young link can be quite good at holding center stage.

 

[The Merc]

I just want to represent my young link crew. I got 4th at a local using young link and dominated some marths, foxs and falcons. I want to add a few pointers about YLs neutral and combo game that have really helped.

Switching up the way you throw projectiles helps you confuse your opponent.

YLs nair is godly and should be used a lot more.

His bair is a great way to get opponents in combos, away from the edge, and begin combos if your opponent lets go of sheild.

YLs spot dodge is underused and amazing. Very little lag and can punish straight out of it.

Spacing with fair is the most helpful tool I have realized, I have begun using double jump fair then I will either:
jab if I space it right to create sheild presure
dash dance back to dash attack
or dash dance grab.

This is a key a thing that I think all young links should incorporate cause many opponets sheild grab and if you can space around their shield, you will have a high advantage on the competition.

Also, I have incorporated all of YLs tricks on the edge (bomb stalls, arrow stalls, grapple wall jump double jump bairs). This has been the best mix up for opponents and has not only guarenteed my spot back on stage, but either gives you a projectile, or puts them in hit stun.

Hope this info is informational.

I'll make a mental note of this. Though it would help if there were people I could versus.

 

[Jimmology]

How do you buffer a get up attack?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Some things I learned this weekend:

You can throw bomb at a shield, shffl fair and regrab the bomb before it hits the ground. I had been wondering if this was possible and I did it in a game so now I know.

YLink's ledge getup attack (<100) is possibly the best one in the game for edgeguarding. If you are holding a bomb and reverse hit them with the ledge getup attack, you can then combo that into bomb and then dair. Did this a few times and it felt amazing and simple.

 

[kaptinkillem]

Some things I learned this weekend:

You can throw bomb at a shield, shffl fair and regrab the bomb before it hits the ground. I had been wondering if this was possible and I did it in a game so now I know.

YLink's ledge getup attack (<100) is possibly the best one in the game for edgeguarding. If you are holding a bomb and reverse hit them with the ledge getup attack, you can then combo that into bomb and then dair. Did this a few times and it felt amazing and simple.

Young Link has some pretty cool, shield pressure stuff like that, its a shame he has such a **** grab, so opponents can just sit in shield most of the time.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

His grab isnt terrible for punishing shields, but its usually too slow to techchase with. Plus yeah, ylink has a decent number of safe pokes.

Does anyone know if late nair -> jump nair is safe from standard grabs? SDM's frame data mentions it is +0 on block.

 

[kaptinkillem]

I haven't tested it but based on the frame data yes. at least on fox, his grab comes out frame 7, nair from ground comes out frame 8, and I'm assuming that would be high enough to evade a grab.

Edit: I just tested this, turns out that if you do a point blank nair on shield, you and the other player become active on the same frame(I tested this on fox), and if you jump and fox grabs on the frame you both become active, and you do an immediate nair, you will get grabbed out of the air the frame before your nair hitbox is out. However, that is at point blank, it is quite easy to space the nair so that it avoids grab, however if you try to nair after wards, it extends your hitbox, and i don't think there is a spacing that hits the shield on the second nair and is not also grabbed. However there are a few good options out of nair on shield. Jab hit 1 hits frame 7(same as foxes grab) and will hit fox before the grab hitbox grabs you. Jab 1 then leads to jab 2(you cannot be grabbed between them) however after jab 2 hits, you can be grabbed before you can crouch and cancel the end of the jab animation. This option works very well on a spaced nair on shield, because you can space the jab to avoid the grab. A good option out of the point blank nair on shield is to do an analog jump backwards after the nair. This avoid foxes grab, and if you start a drift towards fox, and then fair(I was doing the fair on frame 13 of being in the air) you can punish the whiffed grab before they are done with the animation. and if they dont try to grab, and stay in shield you can space the fair to be safe on shield. NOTE: I did these tests in just a few minutes, and only on fox so this data might be slightly off, and may not apply well to other characters.

 

[JANKX]

@ Fortress | Sveet , nair -> jump nair can only be safe from standard grabs so as long as you're spaced outside of the grab range, but nair -> jab will stuff out attempted shield grabs even at point-blank range if you l-cancelled the lowest of nairs. I tested this out in 20XX against Fox and Marth.

For reference, jump is airborne frame 5 and nair is active on frame 4, while jab is active on frame 6.

 

[Rosy]

His grab isnt terrible for punishing shields, but its usually too slow to techchase with. Plus yeah, ylink has a decent number of safe pokes.

Does anyone know if late nair -> jump nair is safe from standard grabs? SDM's frame data mentions it is +0 on block.

I have been testing YLs fair and heres the way I think of it. You can either perfectly space the fair so you can sheild pressure with jab jab then once you see the grab oos you can d smash or you can follow up if they roll. But things can actually get way more technical...

If you fair with bad spacing, you can dash away then once they grab dash towards grab> punish or...
you can fair dash away short hop bair towards them maybe even triple aeriel for ultimate sheild pressure. If you can dash away short hop fade back bair, then you will have the best follow up for fairs imo.

I am trying to work with YLs fair because it is an amazing spacing tool and if a YL is technical enough, they should be able to follow up quite easily.

 

[kaptinkillem]

@ Rosy Check my edit, about nair on shield into fair

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

you can fair dash away short hop bair towards them maybe even triple aeriel for ultimate sheild pressure.

I like it! I practiced sh bair DJ for quite a while and was looking for a solid use for it. I wonder if it is possible to do pressure string along the lines of: sh drop bomb, land with nair, turn, sh bair, DJ, regrab bomb, drop bomb, land with nair.


edit- 16,000th post

 

[JANKX]

I like it! I practiced sh bair DJ for quite a while and was looking for a solid use for it. I wonder if it is possible to do pressure string along the lines of: sh drop bomb, land with nair, turn, sh bair, DJ, regrab bomb, drop bomb, land with nair.

There's barely enough time to execute all these actions, and seems to require very tight timings and spacing for the bomb release and all the aerials, but I was able to do it like this:

sh forwards, drop bomb, crossover nair, sh bair, dj backwards, regrab & drop bomb, crossover nair (returning to your initial orientation).

It's really cool and potentially safe because the bomb can interrupt most counterattacks (except for things like shine). But since shine can beat it, I think we should focus more on things that are guaranteed safe, such as attacking a shield with fair and having enough frame advantage to at least be able to escape potentially bad situations.

For instance, I've been watching various Young Link vs Fox sets, especially Axe's Young Link who goes in with these really flashy aggressive approaches, but it only works because the opponent is overwhelmed and confused. Once the Fox adjusts to Young Link shenanigans, it goes downhill from there. To me, I think the perfect play for Young Link would combine AZ tech with more restraint, overall a passive-aggressive style with effective projectile zoning, perfect punishes, and keeping things varied.