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Social Young Link Discussion

Fortress | Sveet

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Bomb drop > Shine though, if he reflects it he is put into a lot of lag.


I've been watching various Young Link vs Fox sets, especially Axe's Young Link who goes in with these really flashy aggressive approaches, but it only works because the opponent is overwhelmed and confused. Once the Fox adjusts to Young Link shenanigans, it goes downhill from there. To me, I think the perfect play for Young Link would combine AZ tech with more restraint, overall a passive-aggressive style with effective projectile zoning, perfect punishes, and keeping things varied.
Overwhelming your opponent is a powerful advantage, so why avoid it when your character is considerably worse and needs everything he can take?

Also, the projectile camp isn't safe against Fox and Sheik, so you can't just expect to throw stuff and win once you reach a certain level. You get forced into situations where they are standing outside your immediate range (grab, nair, etc) but if you tried to run away and pull bomb or throw boomerang, they would react and hit you in your startup. In situations like that you have to be aggressive in order to put them into a defensive position, which then gives you a brief moment to get a bomb out.

YLs bomb will beat virtually every attack in the game, and it combos into nair and dair on every character. The problem is pulling one, and what happens if you miss your throw, since pulling a bomb takes a full second. They also have a timer, so if both players stall then the opponent is winning. The best you can do is throw your bombs in a way that makes it hard for your opponent to punish you if they manage to dodge it.

So yeah, I think optimal strategy for YL is thinking about having two different states: with a bomb and without. Without a bomb, your entire gameplan is just to get into position to pull a bomb. Once you have a bomb you are open to approach since your attack will win any trade and lead into a combo. I think YL has the tools to be a competitive character, but it is definitely an uphill battle most of the way.
 

JANKX

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@ Fortress | Sveet Fortress | Sveet , thanks for reminding me of the lag on Shine reflect. I guess my real concern is the case where Shine hits you, thus giving a Spacey an opportunity to escape or counter, but otherwise I think it's a good pressure string.

I'm totally not against aggression, and I fully agree that Young Link needs to able to apply pressure to achieve success against top tiers. I was in no way endorsing flat-out camping, I was merely suggesting that there are cases when pulling away is the best option if it means escaping a hard punish. For instance, a dash dance outside of their range could bait an opponent's whiff and lead to punish if you have a solid read, or just dash away into an immediate dash attack in their face. But you definitely gotta run like the wind if you expect them to KO you.

I like your idea of being aware of the two different states regarding bombs, but I think it's more complicated than that. First off, a bomb guarantees nothing, so let's not treat it as a false safety net. Bombs can be stuffed out by Marth's sword and Fox's lasers, so it's always necessary to use them wisely. I think one of the worst habits is always pulling bombs out of reflex instead of having some kind of plan associated with them. There are so many different states in Melee, and Young Link might have the most convoluted decision trees in the game because he's so unsafe, but I enjoy the thrill and it looks like this thread is on the right track in developing his meta.

Young Link definitely has all the tools to be a competitive character, but the answer to fully realizing that potential is through smart plays, forcing favorable situations, being able to adapt and constantly switching gears. The technology has here; we just have to apply it and improve ourselves as players.

@ Jimmology Jimmology , I've seen your sets in the other thread, and it looks like you're already solid with a lot of room to grow. Just keep calm and be always present in your matches and you'll get better results.
 

Rosy

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also, this was posted in another forum but it can a ton of good things in it that I have been talking about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iglL1bVNqT0

whenever n0ne approaches with fair he will jab jab to stop link from sheild grabbing, but he will continually switch up his sheild pressure. many times after the fair he will jump past with bair or even immediately nair in order to dodge the hookshot. Super good stuff from n0ne's YL and I would love to see more.
 

JANKX

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@ Rosy Rosy , these are @ Jimmology Jimmology 's sets from his Critique my Young Link thread:

Jimmology vs. BillyBoy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T86O-UW6zNw
Jimmology vs. JMOAN:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzxW_UH8jMs

n0ne's Young Link is sick. In his ask.fm he had mentioned that he started off as a Young Link main until he could not beat Falcon, at which point he became a Falcondorf. He thinks Young Link is underdeveloped and good as long as your opponent isn't Fox/Falcon. His Mario is also really sick, and everyone knows his Falcon is YOLO, haha.

Aside from that, fair > jab jab is really good, and yes, it's important to keep switching up shield pressure. I'm a fan of mixing in full hop instant nair, as it puts me in a position where I can decide if I want to land another aerial or safely retreat. I also like n0ne's usage of arrows. I'm really surprised that I don't see a lot of Young Links use arrows as much, because they're super good for zoning and starting combos.

I just submitted a request in the 20XX Hack Pack thread if it would be possible to program counterattack options to the dummy AI out of aerial hitsun and after techrolls. This would seriously aid solo practice for all characters, as well as allow us to practice different options out of grabs.
 
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Ficachu

Smash Rookie
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Mar 24, 2015
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help with moonwalking? I can only do it one time before YL just turns around
 

JANKX

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If you turned around after a moonwalk, then you held the drift direction a bit too long. Try slightly speeding up the period repetition, even if it means you gain no drift distance, and then keep adjusting the timing until you get it just right. For maximum distance, you must execute the half-circle motion as quick as possible.
 

Rosy

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If anybody has not heard, vgbootcamp with being having a salty suite at EVO 2015. It is up to the people to create the salty matches. I think all of us should try and get Armada to face Axe in YL dittos. Anybody with me?
 

kaptinkillem

Smash Cadet
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Nov 3, 2014
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I was getting so hype for that set, the boomerang recovery was pretty sick, but I feel like he was over reliant on it, and by the end it was getting read and counter. His shield pressure was nuts, and his bomb play was superb.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Does anyone know why 1.0 wasn't used? Did fly not agree to it or did the TOs forbid it? I cant imagine axe didnt try, but maybe he doesnt care?
 

Rosy

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Does anyone know why 1.0 wasn't used? Did fly not agree to it or did the TOs forbid it? I cant imagine axe didnt try, but maybe he doesnt care?
The stream either used 20xx or another copy of melee. It would have been quite ridiculous to switch out an enitre setup (a setup they had been using the entire day) just for the last 3 games. Axe carries the disc but I dont think he can just switch it out like that mostly when its so far in the tourney.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Resetting a gamecube takes 30 seconds. Swapping a cube for a wii takes 90 seconds. From a TO's perspective I dont think time was an issue such that these things couldnt be done. Perhaps Axe simply didnt press the issue

@AXE 09
 

Rosy

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Why does nobody ever use up b oos with young link? I feel like it is a good way to make opponents not make unsafe approaches but is also good for tech chases. Nair oos is slower so I would think up b would be the better option.

Also, this forums been dead for a while, what happened to all the young link players?
 

JANKX

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Up-B OOS can be SDI'd and the move has a lot of end lag, so it's not especially safe. If you can catch your opponent off guard it will work, but if they catch on you can get punished. I can see it being useful in tech chases, but you're going to have to mix things up.

I haven't been here 'cuz I've actually been playing Smash 4. I admit to having a love/hate relationship with the game, but I've discovered that Marth is really fun. Considering that aggressive approaches are unsafe without proper spacing for the game in general, I think that learning this new system will reinvigorate my Young Link play when I come back to Melee.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Why does nobody ever use up b oos with young link? I feel like it is a good way to make opponents not make unsafe approaches but is also good for tech chases. Nair oos is slower so I would think up b would be the better option.

Also, this forums been dead for a while, what happened to all the young link players?
I stopped playing Y Link to focus on fox more seriously. He still has a soft place in my heart, I put a lot of work into optimizing him.

In general, upb is a bad choice when you're not recovering. The hitbox is tiny, slow, and gives virtually no reward.

Nair OoS is actually 1 frame faster than upb OoS. Nair also has more priority and you are able to be mobile with it. Fullhopping with a nair allows you to punish bad spacing while also landing on a platform to escape the pressure situation.

But all-in-all, WD OoS really should be your #1 shield option.
 

Rosy

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I stopped playing Y Link to focus on fox more seriously. He still has a soft place in my heart, I put a lot of work into optimizing him.

In general, upb is a bad choice when you're not recovering. The hitbox is tiny, slow, and gives virtually no reward.

Nair OoS is actually 1 frame faster than upb OoS. Nair also has more priority and you are able to be mobile with it. Fullhopping with a nair allows you to punish bad spacing while also landing on a platform to escape the pressure situation.

But all-in-all, WD OoS really should be your #1 shield option.
hmm thats so trange cause I have an easier time getting the up b oos then the nair especially against characters with good pressure. But I always go for the sh nair. Should I be trying for full hops instead?

and thats a shame. My sheik is getting old so until I figure out a better punish, ive been focusing on getting better with certain MUs with Young link, especially jiggs.
 

Diabolical PIe

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Hey guys, optimizing some ledge stuff here. A few quick questions. What is the soonest frame YL can act after grabbing ledge? (3, I think...?) How many frames of invinciblity does he have after grabbing ledge?

Also, for silliness' sake, and just for fun, I'm trying to learn YL's walljump stall under Battlefield. Grabbing the little post with the hook shot is no problem, and neither is the wall jump stall, but getting that first wall jump is IMPOSSIBLE. I never seem to hug the wall enough to initiate the first jump. Is there a specific timing I need to do to pull myself up from the chain or something??
 

Fortress | Sveet

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I think its only big link with 3 frames of edge grab lag. Everyone else has 7.

After those 7 frames you have 30 frames of invincibility to act with.

I'm not sure if wall jumping in that spot has awkward timings, but generally you want to hold forward as the grapple is reeling you in, then tap backwards when you touch the wall.
 

benfog

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Any advise on how to beat a Marth player that spams downtilt when on the ground and when I jump over it to try to do an ariel he wavedashes back and forward smashes me.
 

Phez_

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use projectiles to our range his d-tilt, and jump onto a platform to bait an u-tilt out and then shield-drop punish it. I love doing this with shield-drop bomb throw/drop and shield-drop nair

You can also shield grab Marths f-smash sometimes so try that.
 

ChivalRuse

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Any advise on how to beat a Marth player that spams downtilt when on the ground and when I jump over it to try to do an ariel he wavedashes back and forward smashes me.
Shield the tilt as close as possible and shield grab. You can also just flee from him quickly and pull out bombs :)
 

ChivalRuse

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You can nair out of shield or wavedash out of shield. If you have a bomb in hand when you shield, you can throw it. Rolling is sometimes useful against Marth.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Z drop bomb out of shield is your fastest option, and can work against spacies pressure. If the bomb hits their shine they will be stuck in reflection lag and you can get a free hit.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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You mean like sliding off edges with upb? When you press upb on the ground while dashing/running you will keep your momentum for a short amount of time. You can use this to slide off edges mid-animation.
 

onionchowder

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Can someone reference me to some Y.Link v. Spacies vids? I'm trying to learn me some Y.Link, but all the recent high-profile matches are Y.Link v. floaties. The stickied video thread hasn't been updated in forever (R.I.P. smashboards)

'sup Sveet.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Yeah sadly there aren't a whole lot of videos. From my experience, spacies are YL's worst two matchups, so its understandable why Axe doesn't play it in tourney. If you want to find vids, the best solo YL main is Laijin. I know I saw him play vs Mango once and stole a few things :)

Heres a video... didn't actually watch it first to see if it was good xD

 
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