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Social Young Link Discussion

onionchowder

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 8, 2008
Messages
346
Location
Chicago / San Diego
lol Prince Abu. I beat that guy's Shiek with my Y.Link at FC-R. That was a long time ago though, he was definitely the stronger player.

I've been experimenting with Bair --> Stuff (Doc habits die hard). It seems like if you get both hits it can lead into grabs or tilts, but I have a hard time consistently getting both hits.
 
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CnB | Chandy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Messages
221
Location
Austin, Texas
My friend plays Young Link and I finally got some good footage of him recorded. Project M is his primary game (he's a top level Ike main) but he's taking a break from PM for a while so he's been playing a lot more Melee with me and my roommates these days. Hopefully I can get more footage of his in the near future, his Young Link is really cool to watch. He won our Melee Arcadian last semester, going all Young Link. What a champ.

He's not the type to ask for help on Smashboards or anything but if yall have tips or nice things to say about him you should definitely share them and I will make sure he hears about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tcql66ZaaOg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27jeINuTqfg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4NEJHFGt-k
 

Prince_Abu

Smash Lord
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Apr 19, 2009
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lol Prince Abu. I beat that guy's Shiek with my Y.Link at FC-R. That was a long time ago though, he was definitely the stronger player.

I've been experimenting with Bair --> Stuff (Doc habits die hard). It seems like if you get both hits it can lead into grabs or tilts, but I have a hard time consistently getting both hits.
rematch sheik young link $100 nublet
 

Rosy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 22, 2014
Messages
90
Location
Agoura Hills, California
Can someone reference me to some Y.Link v. Spacies vids? I'm trying to learn me some Y.Link, but all the recent high-profile matches are Y.Link v. floaties. The stickied video thread hasn't been updated in forever (R.I.P. smashboards)
I have been working on the spacie MU with YL recently and realized that the way for YL to get in mostly against fox) is to space with fair, then react to what happens next. Most often a nair will stuff their attack as welll as keep you in a decent position, but sometimes you can follow up with a different move.

Also I have been working on YL vs marth as well. I used to have a hard time but recently I have been switching up my apporaches and I think YL has enough options to do decent against marth. If anybody has no ttried this yet, a good mix up is to crouch cancel bomb throw. spacing and apporaching with nairs is not good becuase marths fair and nair out prioritize so keep the projectiles heavy. also, since marths sheild game is weak, its good to pressure them with bombs and condition them into making bad decisions.
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
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Location
College Park, MD
The fact that the Link boiz can shield grab Marth's d-tilt at any range already makes it a playable matchup. Forces Marth to rely more on good maneuvering than spacing hitboxes.
 

1MachGO

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
The fact that the Link boiz can shield grab Marth's d-tilt at any range already makes it a playable matchup. Forces Marth to rely more on good maneuvering than spacing hitboxes.
Lol this isn't even slightly true. Marth's dtilt is -7 on block at worst and YL's grab has 10 frame start up. I did a quick test in 20XX and you can get away with dtilt>dash back with bad spacing. Its even worse for Link who has an 11 frame grab.

Whiffing a grab as Link/Young Link is also terrible since its pretty much a guaranteed grab/fair for Marth.
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
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If you watch SAUS vs The Moon from GOML, you'll see that throughout the set, the threat of Link grabbing was constantly making Moon uncomfortable with throwing out ground moves and giving SAUS tons of opportunities in neutral. In theory, Marth can always avoid the grab, but in practice it's not so easy.
 

1MachGO

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
If you watch SAUS vs The Moon from GOML, you'll see that throughout the set, the threat of Link grabbing was constantly making Moon uncomfortable with throwing out ground moves and giving SAUS tons of opportunities in neutral. In theory, Marth can always avoid the grab, but in practice it's not so easy.
Just watched the set. First of all, the Moon seemed uncomfortable by default and clearly didn't know the matchup (dropped edge guards, poor option selection, greedy pressure and fsmashes, etc.). As for the reluctance to use ground moves, it couldn't be more evident that projectiles is what forces Marth on platforms/in the air. The threat of Link's grab was almost never present save for some awful fsmashes by the Moon.

And yes, avoiding the grab is very easy.

Here the Moon punishes grab with up-b and then dances around Link's shield with relative ease once he gets back on stage: https://youtu.be/H6FFMcDtBM8?t=328

Another instance: https://youtu.be/H6FFMcDtBM8?t=493

Kadano post showing how weak Link's OoS options are vs. Marth:

No problem. Also, here is a gif that illustrates the “perfect” spacing:

At no point in this animation could Link have hit the Marth with up-B or grab.
Regardless, the point is that you originally argued that the Links can grab dtilt at any range. Grab is basically a non-threat against dtilt.
 

onionchowder

Smash Journeyman
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Aug 8, 2008
Messages
346
Location
Chicago / San Diego
rematch sheik young link $100 nublet
Real talk, you're definitely a way better player than me, both then and now. I'm pretty sure you could have trunched me with your Falco.

But yeah, if we're ever at the same tourney, I'd love to money-match.

I made a video demonstrating the various ways Young Link can pressure Fox's shield while still beating out shield grab and shine out of shield. It could be a little helpful. I don't know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENI8HYro1K4
I love your videos, they're always full of interesting (but not necessarily useful) stuff! It's a shame a lot of the follow-ups lose to Fox jumping (Dsmash and Hookshot).
 
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ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
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College Park, MD
I might just be used to seeing bad Marth players in the matchup against Link (insert random scrubby Marth that Germ has beaten).

Grabbing d-tilt is still a threat. It just depends on the timing and spacing which are all variables influenced by factors that can't be taken in a vacuum because there is always context that dictates how you choose to place your moves. Sometimes you feel like you have to throw out poorly spaced moves to avoid a more problematic situation.
 

onionchowder

Smash Journeyman
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Aug 8, 2008
Messages
346
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Chicago / San Diego
There's some Y. Link tech that I'm having trouble with. Y'all have any advice, or is it just a matter of practice?

  1. Nair OoS. I keep Zairing, I think I just need to drop the shield button faster. I've thought about setting the neutral shield to fully pressed (effectively disabling lightshielding), but that has other implications.
  2. sh Bair -> dj. I see Axe do this a lot. Is the timing just really tight?
  3. Tether stuff. When trying to get the maximum horizontal range, when during my air-dodge should I tether? What should I be aiming for to get a sweet-spot tether, or a low tether that will jump into sweetspot?
  4. Bomb Z-dropping on landing. I can drop bombs on platforms well, but the timing window for dropping bombs on the ground right before landing seems very tight.
 
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Diabolical PIe

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 1, 2014
Messages
93
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Milledgeville, GA
There's some Y. Link tech that I'm having trouble with. Y'all have any advice, or is it just a matter of practice?

  1. Nair OoS. I keep Zairing, I think I just need to drop the shield button faster. I've thought about setting the neutral shield to fully pressed (effectively disabling lightshielding), but that has other implications.
  2. sh Bair -> dj. I see Axe do this a lot. Is the timing just really tight?
  3. Tether stuff. When trying to get the maximum horizontal range, when during my air-dodge should I tether? What should I be aiming for to get a sweet-spot tether, or a low tether that will jump into sweetspot?
  4. Bomb Z-dropping on landing. I can drop bombs on platforms well, but the timing window for dropping bombs on the ground right before landing seems very tight.
1.) Yeah, you just need to release L or R faster. You can remove the spring from one of your shield buttons, but keep the spring in another to still allow you to light shield! However, controller modifications are not necessary.

2.) This is easy if you do it with Tap Jump and the C-Stick. Short hopping with Tap Jump may sound weird at first, but it's surprisingly easy once you get used to it. The only thing is, you sacrifice some aerial mobility when you use this method, so be prepared to move your control stick from neutral to a direction as quickly as possible if you want to fade in and out with the move.

3.) It's all very situational. You can go for just below the sweet spot and hang there for a while, then snap up immediately to the sweet spot. Generally, if you're going to tether the side of the stage and not grab the ledge, you want to make sure your head doesn't poke out when you do that little jump. Just practice it and get a feel for the lengths.

4.) This is easier when you do a short hop fast fall bomb drop. Just release your control stick to neutral as soon as you initiate the fall. It's still hard, but this is the best way to do it.

Hope this helps!
 

onionchowder

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Is there an in-depth explanation of tether mechanics somewhere? There seems to be a lot of nuance around it. How long after air-dodging can I tether? How close do I have to be for the tether to fail? When can I jump out of the tether? Where is the range for the sweetspot tether?

What about the up-B slide-off edgehog? I found it much easier to do on Yoshi's Story, but I would slide off too far a lot on Battlefield.

Also, TIL Y.Link can full-hop Dair autocancel from the side platforms on Dreamland. The input seems ti be really tight, but full hop - double jump Dair autocancel is easy to do and works on the side platforms of any stage.
 
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Diabolical PIe

Smash Apprentice
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Jun 1, 2014
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93
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Milledgeville, GA
Is there an in-depth explanation of tether mechanics somewhere? There seems to be a lot of nuance around it. How long after air-dodging can I tether? How close do I have to be for the tether to fail? When can I jump out of the tether? Where is the range for the sweetspot tether?

What about the up-B slide-off edgehog? I found it much easier to do on Yoshi's Story, but I would slide off too far a lot on Battlefield.

Also, TIL Y.Link can full-hop Dair autocancel from the side platforms on Dreamland. The input seems ti be really tight, but full hop - double jump Dair autocancel is easy to do and works on the side platforms of any stage.
1.) You want frames and units of measurement? If I had my 20XX running, I could test through each individual frame of the airdodge for you, but really, I think that's unnecessary. You can pretty much pick up all you need to know about tether mechanics by playing on your own and experimenting. Play it by feel. So long as you're about farther away from the wall than Young Link's body width, you should tether just fine. I really encourage just playing around with it.

2.) Yoshi's Story has a slant which makes the up b ledge snap impossible to miss. Fountain and (maybe?) Poké Stadium also have slight slants. The other legal stages do not, so they require more precision. You want to initiate your Up B right before you fall off the ledge, then hold towards the stage to pull back your momentum. You can also Up B to the ledge from platforms.

3.) Not really sure how useful this is, and it sounds like it only works off of Dream Land's higher platforms, but cool! A cool way to use Dair and stay safe with it is Ledge Canceling it! It works on any edge, and you can really protect yourself coming down if you ledge cancel properly!
 

Yung Scrap

Smash Cadet
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Sep 15, 2015
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Location
Binghamton NY
I need some advice on throw options with YL. My friend plays falco a lot of the times when I choose YL, and fast fallers are more difficult to fight than floaties IMO. I try up throw up tilt but he usually Di's away or falls too fast to be hit by the up tilt. When he does DI f-tilt works well if I can see where he DI's fast enough. Down throw works better for me when he doesn't tech because i can get a down smash, down tilt, f-tilt or even a dash attack. What percentages work for each throw to give me the best follow up options on fast fallers?
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
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I almost always dthrow in all matchups. The uthrow is only good at middle percent ranges; at low percents it doesn't stun them enough, at high percents it sends them too far to link into anything. Dthrow will always give you at least a tech chase, and at higher percents you can link dthrow -> dsmash before they hit the ground.

We were talking about this more in this thread
 

Yung Scrap

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Is it possible to bomb dair from the ground by throwing a bomb and then instantly FH dair, or can it only be done with a bomb drop/throw from above?
 

benfog

Smash Rookie
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Jul 31, 2015
Messages
2
Can anyone give me advice on YL short hop bair into second jump. I know its frame tight but i am just having so much trouble. I have no problem w short hop double laser or even waveshining, i just cant seem to get this. Any advice would be much appreciated.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
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1) you have 2 frames total of leeway. If you waste 1 frame starting the bair, you have 1 less frame to do the trick at the end. If you are 2 frames late at the start, the trick doesnt work.
2) try using control stick to do the double jump. This will allow the jump input to buffer for a small window.
 

Plunder

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Found this bizarre occurrence when I was watching this VoD

Shield poke flame spike Dair killed Fox off the top @ 2:58

Made me curious if the flame spike bounce kill has more KO power than the late 17 damage Dair hitbox. This is a pretty rare occurrence but I could actually see situations and tech chase opportunities where it could be done intentionally with good spacing/timing. I'm guessing it has about the same KO power though because of the KB loss from ricochet.

 
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Plunder

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Can anyone give me advice on YL short hop bair into second jump. I know its frame tight but i am just having so much trouble. I have no problem w short hop double laser or even waveshining, i just cant seem to get this. Any advice would be much appreciated.
Sorry for double post but editing seems silly

Yes the analog stick DJ buffer is helpful when first learning it. But I find most of the time the problem is that people don't Bair soon enough, so they never have a chance to even DJ in the first place.

I had a breakthrough when I started rolling my thumb like a seesaw or "worm" type motion. So the tip of your thumb starts on the Y button you do the tap jump and then quickly the tip of your thump points upward and the middle joint of your thumb hits the A button (sort of looks like you are barely giving thumbs up at this point). At first the goal should be that you are hitting A so fast the Bair doesn't even come out, then you slightly slow the timing to hitting the A button and that is when you know you are getting the Bair as soon as possible. Stay loose, try also pushing your thumb forward as you do the motion as the middle part of your thumb hits A. It needs to feel like one fluid swift motion b/n the two inputs, 5 frames is only 5/60 or 1/12 of a second.




Pretty soon you will always be getting the whole 2 frames to work with to DJ with X/Y and Bair again.
 
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uglywombat2004

Smash Lord
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Jun 13, 2005
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Found this bizarre occurrence when I was watching this VoD

Shield poke flame spike Dair killed Fox off the top @ 2:58

Made me curious if the flame spike bounce kill has more KO power than the late 17 damage Dair hitbox. This is a pretty rare occurrence but I could actually see situations and tech chase opportunities where it could be done intentionally with good spacing/timing. I'm guessing it has about the same KO power though because of the KB loss from ricochet.

This link has the information you are looking for. This is easiest to pull off on Yoshi's and FoD as the top platform is perfect height for full jump down air.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/3q5n6e/killing_early_with_young_link
 

Plunder

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This link has the information you are looking for. This is easiest to pull off on Yoshi's and FoD as the top platform is perfect height for full jump down air.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/3q5n6e/killing_early_with_young_link
Ok well I've just tested this for a few days in training mode and in actual friendlies, and this information seems to be inaccurate (or perhaps I'm just having some extreme bad luck)

I've only ever gotten the 16% hitbox flame dair while they are grounded. I get only the 21% Flame Dair hitbox when they are airborne.

This leads me to believe it's identical to Samus's U-tilt, or G&W's D-tilt (which would agree with masterhand info). They each have radically different KB and damage properties depending if the opponent is grounded or airbourne.

Can anyone confirm or disprove this?

Even if the 21% dair flame hitbox is somehow possible on a grounded opponent I've tried it maybe 50+ times now in actual matches and if it's that hard to not get the 16% hit, well it might as well not be worth going out of the way to attempt it.
 

uglywombat2004

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Ok well I've just tested this for a few days in training mode and in actual friendlies, and this information seems to be inaccurate (or perhaps I'm just having some extreme bad luck)

I've only ever gotten the 16% hitbox flame dair while they are grounded. I get only the 21% Flame Dair hitbox when they are airborne.

This leads me to believe it's identical to Samus's U-tilt, or G&W's D-tilt (which would agree with masterhand info). They each have radically different KB and damage properties depending if the opponent is grounded or airbourne.

Can anyone confirm or disprove this?

Even if the 21% dair flame hitbox is somehow possible on a grounded opponent I've tried it maybe 50+ times now in actual matches and if it's that hard to not get the 16% hit, well it might as well not be worth going out of the way to attempt it.
You can test it out yourself in DEBUG or DEVELOPER mode with 20XX. It just sounds like you are performing the dair to late after becoming airborne. Go frame by frame and input dair on 2nd airborne frame when directly beneath to opponent.
 

Plunder

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You can test it out yourself in DEBUG or DEVELOPER mode with 20XX. It just sounds like you are performing the dair to late after becoming airborne. Go frame by frame and input dair on 2nd airborne frame when directly beneath to opponent.
You're right.I had tested this more afterwards and realized I was thinking of it backwards. I didn't know the flame hitboxes aligned with YL's backwards clean-late timing.

Well that is a bit wonky to do early and aim. I'll see if I can actually incorporate this into platform TC'ing now that I can consistently repeat it. YL at least has the aerial mobility and his jump is almost perfect for SH and FH TC'ing the head hitbox through the levels of plats.
 

LDSenpai

Self loathing ICs Player
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How does Young Link do against Peach, I want to pick up a secondary for Ice Climbers and a character to style on players in my local pools. :p
 

uglywombat2004

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I still think it's a losing matchup for Young Link, but it's one of the better matchups of the higher tiers. You have to get really good at aiming bombs though. I wouldn't recommend the full frontal assault style Axe does unless you are godly at spacing and technical ability.
 

Dingding123

Smash Journeyman
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Sep 27, 2007
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Houston, TX
Yo, I used to play other low-tiers before y.link, and I'm switching to y.link. I played a lot of link in the past - like way too much - so I'm pretty darn comfy with anything y.link should be doing, especially spacing with projectiles!!!!!!!1! Regarding that, I've found one thing of his to be useful that I haven't seen too much in recordings: The bow and arrows.

Particularly fadeaway shots: SH'ing in a direction and then quickly shooting an arrow in the other to cover his trail. It'd be useless if it wasn't for his other projectiles, but doing this certainly buys him time to pull out his other projectiles which I just can't get enough of right now. Of course before doing any more projectile shenanigans it's necessary to pay attention to whether they jump high above him or roll towards him as he shoots his arrow so he's free to punish that accordingly. But yeah, noochb fadeaway. He can cross up someone in their shield with this as well and it's safe so long as the player doesn't mess it up lol.

neutralB's particular list of downsides:

- The thought of using it while not moving ever.
- Kinda bad if they parry it.
- Bad against jiggs, unless they're airborne which means they're fat and then it's good against jiggs? IlluminatiThump
- Probably legit bad against spacies as they're somewhat short; bad against a dashdancing Marth unless said dashdancing Marth is a ways away and the arrow hits him right in his goofy blue hair.

Another use to consider, albeit of lesser value, is SHing towards a guy and shooting an arrow that follows you. You're essentially falling onto someone with the arrow right in front of and a little above you. Obviously dangerous but if they block or run into it yl can follow up with his faster moves or just run away and do more projectile shenanigans. It might be a decent techchase option if whoever's doing it is quick on the draw and has good aim and great timing and yeah that might be pretty hard to pull off. Haha

I find it particularly enjoyable to use the bow and boomerang when I have a bomb in hand whilst practicing, but that's just it: I'm only able to practice right now. I can't make it to a lot of the local tourneys this semester and I haven't been a part of a smash scene in like 3 years or so. Nevertheless, I'm changing that starting this month.

Can any courageous smashers make use of teh bow in the smash scene with me? :O If we could collectively make a case for its usefulness (or otherwise) that could be pretty swanky.

edit: also worth noting: y.link's arrows completely block fox and falco lasers, in case anyone didn't know
 
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Prioritized

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I like using arrows at higher percents, since it can have enough hitstun to follow up with a nair. When my opponent is low percents, I almost never use neutral B.
 

uglywombat2004

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I mostly use arrows for annoying edge guarding and situations where I am retreating and I think the angle/speed as a mixup will catch them offguard.

You can also full hop arrow and waveland before you hit the ground. I've only ever thought to use it as a way to put someone in enough shield stun to waveland past them for a turn around grab.
 

Jlp

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Hey Young Links! I'm a fairly new melee player looking for some advice...

What are YL best options after crouch cancelling something like a jab? (or just when your in close quarters).
Every time I'm jabbed it feels as though I can't get any move out fast enough before getting grabbed.
 

ShadowKing

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Hey Young Links! I'm a fairly new melee player looking for some advice...

What are YL best options after crouch cancelling something like a jab? (or just when your in close quarters).
Every time I'm jabbed it feels as though I can't get any move out fast enough before getting grabbed.
after l cancelling i would usually wave dash to pull out a bomb or jump into a nair. Jab wont do anything because the first hit isnt as strong as the last 2 and the multi hit.
 
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