You think Bowser will be competitively banned?

[Vysetron]

Who knows in the long term. Game's not even out in the wild yet. He's got his best chance yet compared to the other games though.

 

[BSL]

Chain grabs are gone, so that's great, right?

 

[ADAPT Chance]

Hard to say. Bowser has solid potential so I'd like to say he'll be fine in the long term.

 

[ADAPT Chance]

Bowser is looking solid, but him being OP enough to the point of banning him? I don't think that will be something to worry about.

 

[Une]

I always bring up Vanilla MVC3 sentinel as a prime example of people not knowing what the hell they talking about. Because people complained so much about Sentinel at launch he got nerfed in the next patch and is now worthless other then his assist.

But now when the metagame has fully evolved and we see the REAL broken stuff (Zero/vergil/TAC infs etc) it's too late. Even vanilla sentinel would get destoryed in the marvel 3 meta of today. Hell remember the "Wesker" era in the early days of ultimate? Lmfao.

TLDR. It's WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY Too early for this

I thought all they nerfed was his HP

 

[Conda]

So, as revealed in the Nintendo Direct, the go-to online mode for serious smashing has Final Destination as the only stage (with lots of different skins).

There is nothing forcing offline tournaments to use only FD as a competitive stage, however it seems pretty clear that the no-item portion of the game will be balanced solely around FD. The good part of this news is that we will have an experienced fighting game crew working on the balance of the game (guys who made Tekken and Soul Calibur) and balancing with 1 stage in mind is a LOT easier. By the way, is it possible to patch games on the 3DS?

What does this mean for characters like Little Mac (who has nothing to fear from platform camping) and Bowser - who is by design the easiest character to juggle in the series? How is Bowser equipped against projectile-based hit & run characters? Will chaingrabs be entirely removed from the game?

The meta won't be defined by the for glory mode and it's rules. For example, the sub in my sig allows for matchmaking and enabling rules like 'custom movesets on' and 'legal stages only' etc. The 'for glory' mode won't be the primary way for the competitive community to play online.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Considering how Bowser runs like a goddamn maniac in this game, it'll probably be harder for characters to run away effectively.

Of course, no way to know until the game actually drops. I still think it's hilarious how Sakurai figured that Bowser was slow enough to warrant that huge speed buff.

I doubt Sakurai really saw it that way. Bowser's biggest problem in general is just being huge, which is a noticeable disadvantage in footsies and spacing when you're vulnerable to getting hit by pretty much everything. Thus, it makes sense that in order to maintain Bowser's size, but make him better in footsies, he needed more mobility.

We haven't seen the game long enough though to actually determine if Bowser's increased mobility and altered moveset overcompensate for being generally really huge, on top of how his recovery is still one of the more predictable ones.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I thought all they nerfed was his HP

Rocket Punch OTG also got nerfed, reducing some of his combo options. He lost both health AND damage. And he still remained the largest character in the game.

I'm inclined to believe Bowser's huge size makes him generally fair to fight against just because of all the zoning and spacing that being huge makes you vulnerable to.

 

[Kazuhira Nishijo]

I sure hope not he's been my fallback forever. If I ever get into competitive I'll be sad as hell.

 

[Zigsta]

I doubt Sakurai really saw it that way. Bowser's biggest problem in general is just being huge, which is a noticeable disadvantage in footsies and spacing when you're vulnerable to getting hit by pretty much everything. Thus, it makes sense that in order to maintain Bowser's size, but make him better in footsies, he needed more mobility.

We haven't seen the game long enough though to actually determine if Bowser's increased mobility and altered moveset overcompensate for being generally really huge, on top of how his recovery is still one of the more predictable ones.

A2Z is back?!?!

 

[WabbitSeason]

Banned?

There are 48 other characters in the game. Many of them have projectiles and are much faster. I doubt he has the advantage in every MU.

 

[MrEh]

Rocket Punch OTG also got nerfed, reducing some of his combo options. He lost both health AND damage. And he still remained the largest character in the game.

Didn't the Rocket Punch nerf happen in Ultimate?

Because I remember Rocket Punch into HSF still worked for the entirety of vanilla.

 

[Prism]

Please no, I don't want any characters banned.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Didn't the Rocket Punch nerf happen in Ultimate?

Because I remember Rocket Punch into HSF still worked for the entirety of vanilla.

Oh, I misunderstood the previous post. Yeah, that's more accurate. But either way it's another example of a large fighting game character getting nerfed when it wasn't close to being justified (anti-Sentinel tech and hard counters were a thing).

Funny to hear a number of Japanese arguing Bowser might be broken, though it's worrying. The character STILL has weaknesses that we're familiar with. Him killing you from 60-80% hasn't necessarily changed that he still needs to get close, and is really susceptible to zoning.

 

[MrEh]

No doubt.

Heavyweights in general get WORSE as a game evolves, since people eventually learn how to actually play the game. Not saying that Bowser isn't good in this game, but it's probably the case here too.

 

[Itora]

As of right now I think Bowser is the only character in the game who can kill under 90% with an Aerial.

He's disgustingly good, yes, but not to the point where it can be abused and no one can beat him.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Remember guys, game is still new and people are still learning how to control their characters and also learning the duration, range, etc. of others' attacks. People will learn how to avoid and punish Bowser. He's not that slow anymore but he's still big and a little clunky.

Time will not favor slow characters like Bowser well -- it will balance out. He'll likely still be high tier, but maybe not top.

 

[SmashBro99]

As of right now I think Bowser is the only character in the game who can kill under 90% with an Aerial.

He's disgustingly good, yes, but not to the point where it can be abused and no one can beat him.

I killed Villager at 80% with Megaman's bair, there are many others

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Jigglypuff's bair can also kill at around 90-100% if you're a closer to the edge and depending on weight. Falcon knee too. And probably Ganon and more X)

 

[warionumbah2]

Watched a livestream and a pro pikachu player bodied Bowser.

Good projectile characters with good speed can counter him tbh, only dangerous thing about Bowser is his down b which can shatter shields sometimes.

He's good but not bannable.

 

[Magik0722]

I remember the first brawl threads calling for dededes ban.

 

[LordShade67]

In my personal opinion, Boozer Bowser will probably end up getting predictable as time passes. People thought P:M Boozer Bowser was broke, yet nobody plays him now.

In a similar case to @ A2ZOMG Hugo in SFxT(Yes I know. Don't judge me lol) was considered REALLY good early on...and then the 2013 patch nerfed him practically to the point where he's generally considered the worst now. So yeah. I don't have the game yet, but I'd say Boozer Bowser right now is mostly matchup inexperience because everyone's so used to him being complete garbage like in Melee abnd Brawl.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

He's nowhere near Brawl Meta Knight's level of being overpowered, and even he wasn't banned. Like people have said, it can only go downwards for Bowser at this point, I don't even think he's going to be the best character in the game as soon as the meta has evolved decently.

 

[Riskman]

Yeah give or take 3 years the best Bowser is gonna be looking is around maybe Mid-Tier, possibly higher. Characters like Rosalina & Luma are going to overtake him once players get really good with them, because they can just keep Bowser out all day. He'll be viable, but he isn't going to be Meta Knight 2 if that's what you're wondering.

 

[Mr.Random]

I think you guys are wrong. Even though he is amazing right now when the meta evolves I think Bowser will still be high tier, not mid. You see the things that make him really effective in this game are the following. 1. He is the heaviest character in the game, which combined with vectoring makes him the hardest to kill in the game. He can live around 200+ against most characters with good vectoring. 2. He has much better defensive options in this game, Up B OoS is still amazing in this game, and since shield dropping is faster he can now jab or f tilt OoS too. 3. The large blast zones don't hurt his kill power as much as other characters, a lot of his moves can kill you below 100% even when vectoring and even his fastest moves can kill you in between 100-140%. He also has a command grab that can kill every character a 110%+ when fresh so go ahead and shield against Bowser . 4. He is one of the best edgeguarders in the game and can go deep for edgeguards as well due to his recovery traveling much further vertically and horizontally. His bair and fair have huge hitboxes and have great knockback even at low percents, down b to the ledge can cover vertical recoveries at high percents for the kill, Bowser can also cover landings pretty well too. 5. He is fast and has great range. Jab and Ftilt are great pokes, Dtilt is great against shields since it does great shield damage and can't be punished when spaced. Fair is great against aerial opponents and covers him above and below with good range. Nair is fast and is good for beating airdodges as well as being a good combo breaker. Dair is a good mixup along with airdodging due to it's insane speed and big hitbox. There are more reasons but those are off the top of my head. I can see him struggling against certain projectile based characters, but most projectiles in this game have been severely nerfed with a few exceptions and even then it's been stated certain moves won't make him flinch. His recovery is still pretty predictable as well.

 

[LinkNIvy]

Characters will be nerfed before they're banned. The developer is hopefully going to be trying to make everyone as close to the same tier as possible.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

I think you guys are wrong. Even though he is amazing right now when the meta evolves I think Bowser will still be high tier, not mid. You see the things that make him really effective in this game are the following. 1. He is the heaviest character in the game, which combined with vectoring makes him the hardest to kill in the game. He can live around 200+ against most characters with good vectoring. 2. He has much better defensive options in this game, Up B OoS is still amazing in this game, and since shield dropping is faster he can now jab or f tilt OoS too. 3. The large blast zones don't hurt his kill power as much as other characters, a lot of his moves can kill you below 100% even when vectoring and even his fastest moves can kill you in between 100-140%. He also has a command grab that can kill every character a 110%+ when fresh so go ahead and shield against Bowser . 4. He is one of the best edgeguarders in the game and can go deep for edgeguards as well due to his recovery traveling much further vertically and horizontally. His bair and fair have huge hitboxes and have great knockback even at low percents, down b to the ledge can cover vertical recoveries at high percents for the kill, Bowser can also cover landings pretty well too. 5. He is fast and has great range. Jab and Ftilt are great pokes, Dtilt is great against shields since it does great shield damage and can't be punished when spaced. Fair is great against aerial opponents and covers him above and below with good range. Nair is fast and is good for beating airdodges as well as being a good combo breaker. Dair is a good mixup along with airdodging due to it's insane speed and big hitbox. There are more reasons but those are off the top of my head. I can see him struggling against certain projectile based characters, but most projectiles in this game have been severely nerfed with a few exceptions and even then it's been stated certain moves won't make him flinch. His recovery is still pretty predictable as well.

Having access to a friend's Japanese version, I can debunk and/or expand upon several of your points.

On throwing Nair out to stop or punish combos:
Nair isn't as fast to come out as you make it out to be and its range towards a grounded opponent juggling you will be less than that of fair. It will not break you out of juggles from characters such as Mario or Sheik like you seem to believe, especially if it's preventing you from vectoring properly. Worse, if you start it low enough to the ground, the end lag is bad enough that characters will recover before you and punish you. Bowser's options for landing safely shrink significantly the closer to the ground he already is.

On Dair as a mixup:
Dair is a great mixup for two major reasons that you don't seem to know. First, it pops Bowser up into the air a good distance before coming down. It's possible to escape combos from high in the air by forcing the opponent to whiff or stalling in the air to juke up smashes (like Megaman's). Second, the wind effect when hitting the ground is enormous and strong, dealing 2% damage even. It is a good option against grounded opponents trying to rush in, but still unsafe as a well timed spot dodge or roll will leave you stuck in the landing lag while they punish you.

On weakness to projectiles:
Projectile characters are not as big of a threat for Bowser if you know how to steadily approach by punching the projectiles out of existence, walking through trash projectiles, or dash power shielding. The only character you can't use either of these options against is FE:A MC, aka Robin, and you can just jump over or wait the projectiles out since the uses are limited. Think of it like MH3U and compare the MC to a raging Brachydios.

On weak recovery:
I'm not saying it's strong, because we're competing with bull**** recoveries like Villager. However, you can recover with Bowser's up b from some very interesting limits, even below the stage. This means you can throw out Bowser's aerials to defend yourself as you return without gimping your recovery so long as it isn't the dair. This is actually quite terrifying for the opponent unless their name is Villager or Jigglypuff. Not to mention, Bowser up b in the air can change its arc depending on how you mash the button. I've seen this work, too, when ZeRo successfully used it to extend the apex of the move's vertical recovery, causing an opponent's fair to whiff below him.

Also, Zigsta would like to have a word with you. Don't try to poke with forward tilt. It's unsafe as all hell and you will be punished with a grab to down throw combo that will leave you at 60% and in a horrible position. If you're going to poke with something, make it a properly spaced jab or fair. Please.

EDIT: Make sure you check the moveset discussion thread. I can't see Bowser getting into any tier until we know more about Bowser, his matchups, and our options.

 

[Mr.Random]

Having access to a friend's Japanese version, I can debunk and/or expand upon several of your points.

On throwing Nair out to stop or punish combos:
Nair isn't as fast to come out as you make it out to be and its range towards a grounded opponent juggling you will be less than that of fair. It will not break you out of juggles from characters such as Mario or Sheik like you seem to believe, especially if it's preventing you from vectoring properly. Worse, if you start it low enough to the ground, the end lag is bad enough that characters will recover before you and punish you. Bowser's options for landing safely shrink significantly the closer to the ground he already is.

On Dair as a mixup:
Dair is a great mixup for two major reasons that you don't seem to know. First, it pops Bowser up into the air a good distance before coming down. It's possible to escape combos from high in the air by forcing the opponent to whiff or stalling in the air to juke up smashes (like Megaman's). Second, the wind effect when hitting the ground is enormous and strong, dealing 2% damage even. It is a good option against grounded opponents trying to rush in, but still unsafe as a well timed spot dodge or roll will leave you stuck in the landing lag while they punish you.

On weakness to projectiles:
Projectile characters are not as big of a threat for Bowser if you know how to steadily approach by punching the projectiles out of existence, walking through trash projectiles, or dash power shielding. The only character you can't use either of these options against is FE:A MC, aka Robin, and you can just jump over or wait the projectiles out since the uses are limited. Think of it like MH3U and compare the MC to a raging Brachydios.

On weak recovery:
I'm not saying it's strong, because we're competing will bull**** recoveries like Villager. However, you can recover with Bowser's up b from some very interesting limits, even below the stage. This means you can throw out Bowser's aerials to defend yourself as you return without gimping your recovery so long as it isn't the dair. This is actually quite terrifying for the opponent unless their name is Villager or Jigglypuff. Not to mention, Bowser up b in the air can change its arc depending on how you mash the button. I've seen this work, too, when ZeRo successfully used it to extend the apex of the move's vertical recovery, causing an opponent's fair to whiff below him.

Also, Zigsta would like to have a word with you. Don't try to poke with forward tilt. It's unsafe as all hell and you will be punished with a grab to down throw combo that will leave you at 60% and in a horrible position. If you're going to poke with something, make it a properly spaced jab or fair. Please.

EDIT: Make sure you check the moveset discussion thread. I can't see Bowser getting into any tier until we know more about Bowser, his matchups, and our options.

Well at least your points are valid

 

[Emblem Lord]

The better projectile characters will probably maul Bowser so no. He is not ban worthy.

 

[Losho]

No, but he will be very strong in the scene.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

Bowser reminds me of Game and Watch in Melee. A character that did really well in the early game but will be outclassed in the long run.

 

[Une]

Bowser reminds me of Game and Watch in Melee. A character that did really well in the early game but will be outclassed in the long run.

surely you meant brawl

 

[DrRiceBoy]

Duck Hunt Dog seems to do very well against Bowser. I'm sure as time goes on, people will find a lot more characters that are very strong against Bowser... I honestly doubt Bowser will be the best in the game. Good character? Yes. Best character? No. Flaws? Of course. A lot of his flaws seem to be easily exploitable. (based on gameplay footage I'm seeing)

 

[Flayl]

The heck? Why did my thread get merged into this one?

 

[NavySage]

No heavy will every be banned, I think. The faster characters will always have a slight advantage.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

uhh i think a mod done goofed

 

[Gam3rALO]

Bowser will be good at first, but eventually he will end up getting outplayed.

 

[Blackyoshika?]

Tale tee Yoshi egg throwing shuts down a bowser like no other, just don't hang out by the edges that belly flop **** is a game changer, I camp his ass and have lost one time online cuz of a belly flop, yoshis the baddest dinosaur

 

[Raiden mk-II]

Eventually, all characters will get figured out. Bowser more so because he has a lack of range.

 

[ezm1100]

From whats being shown Bowser is fast and powerful. It seems Bowser may be overpowered to na extent.

I have the nagging feeling, and well see if im right, that hes gonna be on the banned list

I highly doubt it.