You think Bowser will be competitively banned?

[Flayl]

So, as revealed in the Nintendo Direct, the go-to online mode for serious smashing has Final Destination as the only stage (with lots of different skins).

There is nothing forcing offline tournaments to use only FD as a competitive stage, however it seems pretty clear that the no-item portion of the game will be balanced solely around FD. The good part of this news is that we will have an experienced fighting game crew working on the balance of the game (guys who made Tekken and Soul Calibur) and balancing with 1 stage in mind is a LOT easier. By the way, is it possible to patch games on the 3DS?

What does this mean for characters like Little Mac (who has nothing to fear from platform camping) and Bowser - who is by design the easiest character to juggle in the series? How is Bowser equipped against projectile-based hit & run characters? Will chaingrabs be entirely removed from the game?

 

[Oracle_Summon]

So, as revealed in the Nintendo Direct, the go-to online mode for serious smashing has Final Destination as the only stage (with lots of different skins).

There is nothing forcing offline tournaments to use only FD as a competitive stage, however it seems pretty clear that the no-item portion of the game will be balanced solely around FD. The good part of this news is that we will have an experienced fighting game crew working on the balance of the game (guys who made Tekken and Soul Calibur) and balancing with 1 stage in mind is a LOT easier. By the way, is it possible to patch games on the 3DS?

What does this mean for characters like Little Mac (who has nothing to fear from platform camping) and Bowser - who is by design the easiest character to juggle in the series? How is Bowser equipped against projectile-based hit & run characters? Will chaingrabs be entirely removed from the game?

There seems to be more moves that push people off stages this time around; plus, Little Mac's moves require a lot of room in order to use the, giving him some major disadvantages.

 

[RomanceDawn]

If chain grabs no longer exist that will be one step towards actually winning with Bowser, lol. Ultimately we'll just have to wait until the game is released. Unless of course we find out that other projectiles are as easily deflected as King Dedede's Gordo.

 

[ImaClubYou]

I feel Bowser should've gotten a big Fireball projectile instead of Firebreath. Not only is it more iconic but it's overall better for him.

Looking at some of the throws in the direct, they almost look like N64 throws.

 

[S_B]

I feel Bowser should've gotten a big Fireball projectile instead of Firebreath. Not only is it more iconic but it's overall better for him.

I'm praying that tapping B will cause Bowser to belch a fireball and holding will do the flame breath, ala Samus' different types of missiles.

Looking at some of the throws in the direct, they almost look like N64 throws.

That'd be cool. God knows, Bowser's throws were a whole PILE of terribad (except for Melee's klaw back throw).

As for the topic, we've seen that Bowser does appear to have some kind of armor this time around. In Little Mac's trailer, you can watch as MM's mega buster pellets hit Bowser without causing him to flinch but we've observed other characters flinching because of it.

I'm afraid to be hopeful, but I think that out of any SSB game, this could be the one in which Bowser finally shines.

I'm still not thinking top tier, but I don't think he'll be as hopeless as he's been in past games.

 

[ImaClubYou]

If Bowser somehow becomes high tier this would say a lot of how the metagame will work.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I feel that Bowser may still have some approach issues if he can't attack directly without risking any punishment.

 

[S_B]

I feel that Bowser may still have some approach issues if he can't attack directly without risking any punishment.

That's why I keep hoping we'll see him get a projectile.

The fact that he could be projectile camped in Brawl knocked him down about 4 tiers. If Bowser could instead force enemies to approach HIM, he might have a chance.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Easier said than done though, especially since Fox is one of Bowser's most hated opponents.

 

[ImaClubYou]

I'm quite interested in who will be the next top tier. Possibly LumaLina. Whoever thought getting a JV 4 stock just got so much easier.

I just want to know how Bowser would compete and if he can freely play how he wants instead of being forced to play their game like in every Smash.

 

[Empyrean]

Bowser is one of the only character on whom heavy armor makes sense (and only on certain moves). And on a stage like FD with no platforms around, it could help him a lot. Obviously, slapping armor on some his moves alone won't get him anywhere if all his moves are bad. And yes, I agree that Bowser shouldn't give in to the enemy's playstyle. Projectile or not, he needs to be able to control some space and make the enemy respect his priority and presence.

 

[Homelessvagrant]

I don't see Bowser having a good future in a FD metagame. Fast characters with good juggle capabilities will rofl stomp him if we take smash history into account. His new chiropractor may have helped him a bit in regards of combating this (or so we shall see in a few months) but he still looks to be too big without enough reach.

 

[Sir Roll-e]

From what ive seen, yes. He appears to be faster and somewhat stronger, but thats just me. His Bair and Uair seems to be buffed so he doesnt sit on his ass after performing on of those

 

[NickOfTime90]

Only in the 3ds version right? But I think they have rebalanced him in speed/damage ratio.

 

[S_B]

Easier said than done though, especially since Fox is one of Bowser's most hated opponents.

It really depends on whether or not Bowser's toolkit has been upgraded enough to be on par with the rest of the cast.

As it stands, we know his F-air has a good deal more range, most of his moves come out faster and we suspect he has super armor of some kind though we're not really clear on where.

If Bowser can be the unstoppable tank he needs to be, then this could definitely work, but it's still way too soon to tell.

 

[S_B]

He looks like he's going to be better, but it's just too soon to tell until we've seen how he stacks up vs. the rest of the cast.

Remember, we were excited for Brawl Bowser at first as well.

Though, with Namco actually developing the game, I'd guess that this is the best chance Bowser has ever had to not suck.

 

[Empyrean]

Like Smash_Brother said, the question is, will he be fast and strong enough? Don't forget that hitstun-cancelling is not a thing anymore and that means Bowser is probably gonna get juggled for days by some characters if he's not careful enough.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

That's why I keep hoping we'll see him get a projectile.

The fact that he could be projectile camped in Brawl knocked him down about 4 tiers. If Bowser could instead force enemies to approach HIM, he might have a chance.

i believe if Arial momentum makes a return.
the new faster bower should be fine being able to jump a whole lot farther.

 

[BirthNote]

We can customize movesets now, so Bowser might get a fireball option through that. It wont matter in the Glory mode since we only have default moves in that, but against friends and offline matches this will be great news.

 

[Ryan.]

He looks a lot better to me too, very excited to play as this buffed Bowser.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

We can customize movesets now, so Bowser might get a fireball option through that. It wont matter in the Glory mode since we only have default moves in that, but against friends and offline matches this will be great news.

So far in the forums custom moves are looking to be banned before the game come out.
And i don't particualraly want then since they would cause issues ar tournaments. Making your moveset from wiiu 2 wiiu would set things back,

 

[ImaClubYou]

Indeed. If costom movesets are a thing the meta game would take exponentially longer to evolve than Melee ever could.

 

[Bowserlick]

Yes.

Bowser is going to have a great edge-guarding game coupled with better jumping and running.

He is dangerous up close. (I think Sakurai mentioning making him even stronger). His forward Smash is better in range and execution. He might have light armor. And of course, he is even more dangerous when a stock above his opponent given his Klaw.

His weakness is primarily in getting to the opponent. But if he can dodge projectiles and close ground, he is extremely dangerous.

 

[ImaClubYou]

I actually don't care if he sucks still.

The fact of the matter is Bowser is freakin' more badass then he's ever been and that's enough for me to main him. If DJNintendo and Gimpy made him work than I'll do my best to make it up there as well.


..Though being high tier would be nice regardless

 

[Takehiko]

Since I'm not knowledge able about bowswer, before I answer, what's hitstun-cancelling?

 

[Empyrean]

Since I'm not knowledge able about bowswer, before I answer, what's hitstun-cancelling?

Hitstun-cancelling was the act of cancelling your hitstun, as in the state in which you can't do anything after getting hit, through the means of an airdodge or an aerial, due to a flaw in the code. This made combos in Brawl extremely difficult to do, since the opponent could just escape the combo very easily.

 

[Takehiko]

Hitstun-cancelling was the act of cancelling your hitstun, as in the state in which you can't do anything after getting hit, through the means of an airdodge or an aerial, due to a flaw in the code. This made combos in Brawl extremely difficult to do, since the opponent could just escape the combo very easily.

Thanks for explaining that. The two words confused me. As per reading this thread, no one thinks that bowser's upright stance and running is a buff? Because I see it could have a certain amount of potential in being that now he's a moving powerhouse (if they don't decrease some of his damage output).

 

[Empyrean]

Thanks for explaining that. The two words confused me. As per reading this thread, no one thinks that bowser's upright stance and running is a buff? Because I see it could have a certain amount of potential in being that now he's a moving powerhouse (if they don't decrease some of his damage output).

For all we know, the upright stance is just a change in animation. They might have altered his hitboxes a bit, so maybe he is slightly harder to hit now.

 

[Neo Zero]

Thanks for explaining that. The two words confused me. As per reading this thread, no one thinks that bowser's upright stance and running is a buff? Because I see it could have a certain amount of potential in being that now he's a moving powerhouse (if they don't decrease some of his damage output).

If anything, the stance change might be bad. Didn't Sakurai show Bowser is now taller because of it? I can think of exactly zero reasons you'd want a Tall Hitbox.

 

[Second Power]

If anything, the stance change might be bad. Didn't Sakurai show Bowser is now taller because of it? I can think of exactly zero reasons you'd want a Tall Hitbox.

http://smashboards.com/threads/bowser-size-in-comparison-to-brawl.346124/#post-16369820
His height is actually the same, he just isn't hunched over anymore, meaning his hurtbox is most likely smaller.

 

[Ultinarok]

Namco-Bandai loves making big characters top tier threats, so I agree with some of the above posters that this is Bowser's best chance to perform well. Even some physics/hitbox changes would do him a world of good.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

In the Direct, Bowser's D-Air is now like Sonic's D-Air. It's at the part with the Yellow Devil.

 

[Empyrean]

I'm not sure I like that change. He already has down-B as some sort of divekick-like move, so 2 doesn't feel necessary. Dair would be good if it had a lot less landing lag and more power. Just look at PM Bowser. It's the same dair, yet it's one of his best moves with just a few tweaks and l-cancelling.

 

[infomon]

Hitstun-cancelling was the act of cancelling your hitstun, as in the state in which you can't do anything after getting hit, through the means of an airdodge or an aerial, due to a flaw in the code.

Wellll, we can't know if it was a flaw or if it was intentional. But I'm wondering -- how much is this different in smash4?

In Brawl, these are the events that happen when you get hit, in time-order:
- Getting hit: you're stuck in hitlag, and can SDI. (Reports are that SDI is gone or near-impossible in the smash4 demo!?)
- The moment you get launched. Your control-stick direction at this single moment is your DI, and affects the angle you get sent. (Does DI exist in smash4?)
- You are launched, and are in pure hitstun (can't do anything)
- You can airdodge. This also means you can item-throw or item-drop or z-attack if your character has one. You still can't attack or use specials, unless you airdodge/item-throw/etc. first; after that you'd be able to do anything, even if momentum is still sending you along your knockback trajectory.
- You can use regular attacks (and fastfall them!), but you can't use specials. Again, if you do attack, you'll be able to do anything when it's done even if you're still flying.
- Hitstun is fully over: you can use specials and control your aerial mobility. I think there are still a couple frames of knockback left but you can fight them off with the control-stick.
- Knockback is done.

Sorry for the ton-of-detail, but I'm reeeeally curious which of these mechanics have changed for the smash4 demo. I expect the removal of SDI was simply for the demo, and that it will be back in the actual game -- but who knows?

 

[Desu_Maiden]

He's already pretty buffed as it is.

 

[HeavyLobster]

This thread seems way more credible after the SDCC tourney, but I don't think Bowser will be a game breaker, even if he isn't nerfed. I suspect, as the metagame develops, most of the fast/light characters will develop consistent combo games, even if these combos are rather tame compared to Melee, and Bowser probably won't develop much of one because of how far his moves send opponents. Combine this with how combo-prone Bowser is to begin with, and things even out a lot more. When the likes of Fox learn how to get 2-4 hit combos consistently on Bowser, even if the damage output is similar to Bowser's 1 hit, the matchup becomes much more even. Bowser looks powerful enough to be able to hold his own once this happens, but won't be as imposing as he was today. Also note that there were so many Bowsers in the later rounds of the tourney mainly because of how good he is in FFAs.

 

[The Light Music Club]

With the fact that over half the roster wasn't present at the tournament makes me think there is a chance he won't be. Plus they scored Samus as the most powerful when the demo came out, so I just think it was people using him very well.

 

[S_B]

This thread seems way more credible after the SDCC tourney, but I don't think Bowser will be a game breaker, even if he isn't nerfed. I suspect, as the metagame develops, most of the fast/light characters will develop consistent combo games, even if these combos are rather tame compared to Melee, and Bowser probably won't develop much of one because of how far his moves send opponents. Combine this with how combo-prone Bowser is to begin with, and things even out a lot more. When the likes of Fox learn how to get 2-4 hit combos consistently on Bowser, even if the damage output is similar to Bowser's 1 hit, the matchup becomes much more even. Bowser looks powerful enough to be able to hold his own once this happens, but won't be as imposing as he was today. Also note that there were so many Bowsers in the later rounds of the tourney mainly because of how good he is in FFAs.

It's like I said in the other thread, this early in the metagame, if Bowser didn't appear to be overpowered, it would mean he's more than likely UNDERPOWERED.

Also, Bowser only really came up against ONE projectile camper in 1v1 (Shiek). Every other character he fought who COULD have spammed him with projectiles didn't, meaning that these players basically had a whole additional method for racking up damage on Bowser that they weren't using.

Again, if Bowser didn't give us the illusion of being OP here, he'd be guaranteed to suck later on.

 

[Morbi]

No. Before that can even be considered we must see his performance against the entire cast for a certain period of time at a higher level of competition. Once we are finished, it is doubtful that most people will feel the same way, and even if they do... no.

 

[Jerodak]

Yeah, It really seemed like Bowser won because the people using him simply adapted faster and just outplayed their opponents. Also, their opponents were both playing very predictably and I'm pretty sure that Battlefield is still Bowser's best stage, it was pretty much a perfect storm. Had the Bowser players switched characters with their opponents then the 4 stock would have likely happened in the other direction. It's still too early to pull the OP card, I mean look at what happened to little mac, a good number of the people who were calling him OP seem feel quite differently now.