Yoshi v. Samus [Summary Updated: 8/17/2009]

[.Marik]

Fine, have it your way.

Just remember not to base your entire ****ing analysis off of one Samus player. I can't stress this enough.

Yatta yatta, whatever.

 

[Metatitan]

Fine, have it your way.

Just remember not to base your entire ****ing analysis off of one Samus player. I can't stress this enough.

Yatta yatta, whatever.

Please remember this is supposed to be a discussion. Stop throwing a hissy fit, furbs has played other samus mains besides xyro and the result is usually the same. You don't see people *****ing that they might make snake 50:50 on mk because ally beat m2k do u?

 

[.Marik]

But that's the thing.

ALLY IS A VERY HIGH SKILLED PLAYER. Most people aren't as good as Ally. Or Xyro, when it comes to using Samus.

I already stated my opinion, over and over again, but nobody listens, or takes it into consideration.

So no, not really throwing a hissy fit.

 

[Airborne]

i wish there were midwest samus players so i could try to get a foothold on this discussion... T-T

 

[Metatitan]

But that's the thing.

ALLY IS A VERY HIGH SKILLED PLAYER. Most people aren't as good as Ally. Or Xyro, when it comes to using Samus.

I already stated my opinion, over and over again, but nobody listens, or takes it into consideration.

So no, not really throwing a hissy fit.

m2k is a very high skilled player as well. I'm sry ur dumb <3. i dont see how taking the best yoshi (tied with acey but w/e) and having him fight the best samus, and BOTH of them agreeing its 35:65 doesnt make it 65:35. not to mention anyone who has played the matchup where both pple know the matchup inside and out agrees its 35:65 samus

 

[.Marik]

m2k is a very high skilled player as well. I'm sry ur dumb <3. i dont see how taking the best yoshi (tied with acey but w/e) and having him fight the best samus, and BOTH of them agreeing its 35:65 doesnt make it 65:35. not to mention anyone who has played the matchup where both pple know the matchup inside and out agrees its 35:65 samus

Yeah, and it's been PROVEN the matchup is close to 50:50. Ally may be better than Mew2King. I mean, they were both playing their best, and Ally won 3-1.

But does everyone consist of skill level like them? Of course not. They are the best of the best. But, that's irrelevent, I suppose.

Green Ace is the strongest in the area of core gameplay, I believe. That may be of utmost importance when it comes to playing the BEST Samus.

I don't get this. I didn't even say Yoshi ***** Samus. There's no way Samus ***** Yoshi more than Marth, Wolf, or Falco. I have no trouble whatsoever facing Samus players.

Reason why? It's most likely because they're not Xyro. He has a purple name for a reason, you know. Because he *****. He uses a character that is Bottom Tier, and places 33rdish at WHOBO.

If the Samus doesn't know what they're doing, they'll get *****. However, Samus players that know how to defend, approach, and make use of projectiles, it shuts dow our approach. But if we ALSO know how to get within range of Samus (close range) I'm positive good Yoshi's like Bwett/Green Ace, will win a lot more.

Plus, Delfino is good against Samus?

Love you too, you scroundel. <3

 

[Metatitan]

Yeah, and it's been PROVEN the matchup is close to 50:50. Ally may be better than Mew2King. I mean, they were both playing their best, and Ally won 3-1.

But does everyone consist of skill level like them? Of course not. They are the best of the best. But, that's irrelevent, I suppose.

Green Ace is the strongest in the area of core gameplay, I believe. That may be of utmost importance when it comes to playing the BEST Samus.

I don't get this. I didn't even say Yoshi ***** Samus. There's no way Samus ***** Yoshi more than Marth, Wolf, or Falco. I have no trouble whatsoever facing Samus players.

Reason why? It's most likely because they're not Xyro. He has a purple name for a reason, you know. Because he *****. He uses a character that is Bottom Tier, and places 33rdish at WHOBO.

If the Samus doesn't know what they're doing, they'll get *****. However, Samus players that know how to defend, approach, and make use of projectiles, it shuts dow our approach. But if we ALSO know how to get within range of Samus (close range) I'm positive good Yoshi's like Bwett/Green Ace, will win a lot more.

Plus, Delfino is good against Samus?

Love you too, you scroundel. <3

lol bwett's area is harder than green ace's. whenever i talk to green ace, he says its impossible atm to determine which one is better because he places higher but bwett's region is harder. sry ur dumb <3. and yes delfino on samus, u can actually approach her there

 

[Bwett]

Alright, I really am tired of this bickering among both of you. I intend to make a detailed explanation of this matchup by tonight. Furthermore, I 3-stocked Xyro on Delphino. It is a great stage for Yoshi v. Samus. As of right now, we will NO LONGER discuss ratio for this matchup. We will decide at a later time because it is still quite important for deciding whether people should CP. Now, we will discuss options that should be used for defense and offense.

Lastly, there is no reason to discuss me vs GreenAce as far as skill goes. Lately, I've been seeing him have exceptional gameplay similar to my own, yet with his own twist to the defensive style. I consider us equals as it stands. Do not broach the subject again.

 

[Crystanium]

No. What don't you get? Xyro=/= other Samus players. Xyro *****. Not everyone has that skill level. That's like saying because Gimpyfish ***** Yoshi with his Bowser, and Boss ***** Yoshi with his Mario. But, that doesn't mean the characters do overall, just because VERY good players ***** unsuspecting Yoshi's. It's obvious the matchup isn't 35:65 Samus's favour. Yoshi players, you actually believe that? I think it's bull****. 50:50. Perhaps 55:45, because Samus can shut down much of Yoshi's approach game. But up close? Samus gets murdered.

Right, other Samus mains aren't Xyro, but that doesn't mean that other Samus mains cannot get to Xyro's level. Xyro has consistently beaten Yoshi mains, and Bwett and Furbs aren't unsuspecting, either.

Quoted for truth. The same can be applied to us, which is obviously what happened.

That didn't happen to Bwett and Furbs. Poltergust also beat Xyro the first two matches, but then ended up getting ***** the other four matches. I don't think much of that can be applied here.

 

[Deleted member]

Alright, I really am tired of this bickering among both of you. I intend to make a detailed explanation of this matchup by tonight. Furthermore, I 3-stocked Xyro on Delphino. It is a great stage for Yoshi v. Samus. As of right now, we will NO LONGER discuss ratio for this matchup. We will decide at a later time because it is still quite important for deciding whether people should CP. Now, we will discuss options that should be used for defense and offense.

Lastly, there is no reason to discuss me vs GreenAce as far as skill goes. Lately, I've been seeing him have exceptional gameplay similar to my own, yet with his own twist to the defensive style. I consider us equals as it stands. Do not broach the sugject again.

LOOOL!
Bwett is too good at the boards haha.
Hes like silent beast but he ***** even more.

K heres what we do for samus from what i saw(it was wifi, but the stuff i used works offline too so this is basically a guess):

Samus obviously is very very hard to approach. You must firstly, dont go too far out of your way to not take damage. You are going to take some, what you need to do is focus on making a safe approach out of range of up b out of shield.

I feel that SHAD is very useful so long as you space it so that you land outside of samus. Against samus tho, all approaches are punishable so you gotta mix it up hard core. However, from a SHAD, we can jab cancel to anything on samus' shield, dtilt works really well. Samus has good out of shield options, but none with down tilt range, so she probably will try to get out with a jump or something, which puts her at a disadvanteous position.

Bair ***** in the air, use it a lot cuz samus has ****ty priority up there unless its zair.

 

[Metatitan]

actually her dair and uair have beastly priority xD. IMO when u get samus into the air under your conditions, shes in trouble. her dair may be beastly but shes floaty and your uair is faster. how good is hive xyro? i may try to get experience on the other side of the spectrum (yoshi's perspective) with her if it would be accurate.

 

[Deleted member]

I means her foward reaching aerials. It doesnt matter if her dair has priority cuz our uair wins.

 

[Poltergust]

Poltergust also beat Xyro the first two matches, but then ended up getting ***** the other four matches. I don't think much of that can be applied here.

No, I didn't. For one thing, I won one of the next five matches, and I didn't get "*****," as you put it. If I did, then I wouldn't believe it to be neutral.

...I wish that the sixth match was recorded (the one on Smashville). That was the best one. I even managed to break Xyro's shield!

Also, I've noticed that this thread is generating a humongous amount of discussion compared to the other match-up threads, especially considering that it is Samus we're talking about....

 

[Metatitan]

No, I didn't. For one thing, I won one of the next five matches, and I didn't get "*****," as you put it. If I did, then I wouldn't believe it to be neutral.

...I wish that the sixth match was recorded (the one on Smashville). That was the best one. I even managed to break Xyro's shield!

Also, I've noticed that this thread is generating a humongous amount of discussion compared to the other match-up threads, especially considering that it is Samus we're talking about....

thats because everyone loves yoshi and samus

 

[Shiri]

The real reason is because people can't keep their egos in check.

Bwett noted fighting on Delfino is great for this matchup. What do you guys think of that? Why might it be advantageous and are there places it could backfire?

Furthermore, are there any stages where you wouldn't want to play this matchup? Why? Also, if your ban is spent on another stage...how can you minimize casualties on their counterpick?

More constructive discussion and less circle jerking, please.

 

[Airborne]

how about this? is it worse for the first match to be a stage with platforms or without?

 

[Deleted member]

Double post

 

[Deleted member]

Nobody cares about wifi, stop talking about it, or anything player related. This is a matchup, lets talk about it, not "how well i did on wifi". If i was doing that earlier im sorry.

Umm dont play it on luigis mansion. Just dont. Its super **** for samus and it makes it very difficult to approach since zair pretty much covers the whole bottoms floor, plus samus punishes missed techs off the ceiling really hard.

Samus does really well on platforms imo, so you dont wanna go to battlefield, veto that. Its easier to approach but not really cuz samus has way more options. If you do go to battlefield, do your best to bait samus like you are going to go on a platform, and hope for up b or something

Not sure why delphino would be good, perhaps the angles of different parts of the stage allow us to sort of camp samus without danger from zair and charge shots, also, our uair ***** samus so maybe going under stage works.

Any stage with irregularities that make samus unable to camp you fully seems like a good plan. I think japes might be good, samus kills up a lot and she cant here, so all she has is fsmash (good but a little predicatable, xyro just spaces it perfectly), and charge shot, which is amazingly easy to DI cuz of its hitstun, but is still dangerous.

 

[Xyro77]

Bwett noted fighting on Delfino is great for this matchup. What do you guys think of that? Why might it be advantageous and are there places it could backfire?

Furthermore, are there any stages where you wouldn't want to play this matchup? Why? Also, if your ban is spent on another stage...how can you minimize casualties on their counterpick?

IMO, heres why i lost on delphino.


1. I dont pick or CP this stage unless its CP on me. I also KNOW that bwett is REALLY good on that stage(his dallas buddies talk about it) so it kind alowers my morale. Morale plays a BIG role in fights.

2. Unlike halbert, yoshi coming from UNDER the stage on delphino with dair to nair or just simply u-air is really useful. I didnt figure it out till it was too late.

3. There are SEVERAL parts on delphino to where if yoshi does his DOWN+B, when it connect with the ground it will slide. I dont understand why or how it does it but its useful.

4. Water. yoshi can spike.

 

[Metatitan]

IMO, heres why i lost on delphino.


1. I dont pick or CP this stage unless its CP on me. I also KNOW that bwett is REALLY good on that stage(his dallas buddies talk about it) so it kind alowers my morale. Morale plays a BIG role in fights.

2. Unlike halbert, yoshi coming from UNDER the stage on delphino with dair to nair or just simply u-air is really useful. I didnt figure it out till it was too late.

3. There are SEVERAL parts on delphino to where if yoshi does his DOWN+B, when it connect with the ground it will slide. I dont understand why or how it does it but its useful.

4. Water. yoshi can spike.

theres also the part with umbrellas, yoshi can hide behind the ledge thing and egg camp samus without fear of zair or even missiles if yoshi spaces correctly

 

[Airborne]

if platforms help samus **** yosh, and you guys already said that samus forces yoshi to approach b/c of charge shot missiles and everything else, making final a bad choice, then what neutral would help us out the most? o.o

 

[Xyro77]

theres also the part with umbrellas, yoshi can hide behind the ledge thing and egg camp samus without fear of zair or even missiles if yoshi spaces correctly

zair can still get you. zair can hit a kirby ducking.....lol

if platforms help samus **** yosh, and you guys already said that samus forces yoshi to approach b/c of charge shot missiles and everything else, making final a bad choice, then what neutral would help us out the most? o.o

bf is our best neutral stage.

platforms are good for use cause we can UP+B oos and then fast fall through the platforms and not get punshed. we can do great things if you guys get on platforms.

IMO samus does WORST on yoshis island. the lips mess up our ledge game AND we cant zair through the stage

 

[Metatitan]

zair can still get you. zair can hit a kirby ducking.....lol




bf is our best neutral stage.

platforms are good for use cause we can UP+B oos and then fast fall through the platforms and not get punshed. we can do great things if you guys get on platforms.

IMO samus does WORST on yoshis island. the lips mess up our ledge game AND we cant zair through the stage

OMG THANK GOD IM NOT THE ONLY ONE TO THINK THIS!!! i simply hate yoshi's island as samus, i tried learning the correct spacing to consistently zair from the edge but it was too hard (i got it like once or twice out of 100 attempts)

 

[Crystanium]

No, I didn't. For one thing, I won one of the next five matches, and I didn't get "*****," as you put it. If I did, then I wouldn't believe it to be neutral.

Oh really? There are six matches that were recorded. You might want to check back. You got two-stocked on the fifth and sixth match. All the other matches, except for one and two, you lost.

...I wish that the sixth match was recorded (the one on Smashville). That was the best one. I even managed to break Xyro's shield!

This would mean that there are seven matches. Xyro has six matches of you and him brawling, none of which were on Smashville. Are you sure it wasn't you Xyro was fighting?

 

[Airborne]

zair can still get you. zair can hit a kirby ducking.....lol




bf is our best neutral stage.

platforms are good for use cause we can UP+B oos and then fast fall through the platforms and not get punshed. we can do great things if you guys get on platforms.

IMO samus does WORST on yoshis island. the lips mess up our ledge game AND we cant zair through the stage

could you guys possibly put the 5/6 (whatever you guys prefer in including with lylat and PS1)
neutrals in order from best to least, according to samuses performance?

also, does a flat zone or a multitude of platforms give you a greater advantage in this match-up, with prior experience from bwett, furbs, etc?

 

[JOE!]

i think Japes is good if we manage to be unde rthe middle platform and smaus is on the outer ones, we can egg camp wothout much reaching us.

And what about Brinstar? we can go under, the platforms can move a little, etc, etc

 

[Shiri]

Stuff that doesn't matter

We are discussing the matchup. Please discuss the matchup.

i think Japes is good if we manage to be unde rthe middle platform and smaus is on the outer ones, we can egg camp wothout much reaching us.

And what about Brinstar? we can go under, the platforms can move a little, etc, etc

I don't know about Brinstar; way too many places for Samus to abuse her tilts.

The main platform's dips and bumps especially let her abuse down tilt and it's something that you just don't wanna do. Jungle Japes is good for Yoshi the same way Frigate's second transformation is good for R.O.B.; stay in the middle and you can make Samus' job of getting in pretty hard and you can abuse the short range nature of all three platforms to either push her out or reset if you need to run. The one problem is that if you get forced out of the middle, the platform above the middle can make getting back in a bear. The gaps between platforms and the space just below the platform above the middle would seem to suggest lots of Egg Lay abuse and Edge Eggs to try to force your way in. Don't forget you can snipe into the middle under the platform with eggs at some pretty nice angles. Watch out for klaptraps when you do, however.

 

[Metatitan]

ha brinstar, jigglypuff makes bebehs on that stage. random fact, the platform on the ride lets u slide with ground pound

 

[Poltergust]

Oh really? There are six matches that were recorded. You might want to check back. You got two-stocked on the fifth and sixth match. All the other matches, except for one and two, you lost.



This would mean that there are seven matches. Xyro has six matches of you and him brawling, none of which were on Smashville. Are you sure it wasn't you Xyro was fighting?

No, the 6th match didn't get recorded since the game froze. It really was the best one. =(

Xyro even said that the match didn't get recorded due to the game freezing and that he (she? Can someone please tell me?) won 4-3.

 

[Deleted member]

stuff that doesnt matter

We are discussing the matchup. Please discuss the matchup.

Hmmm...
10char

 

[bigman40]

How bout we close this **** discussion since Bwett is going to make his analysis? I'm uninterested in everyone else's right now since we got all this bickering going on (I've already looked at your Xyro and I tihnk t's good).

 

[Poltergust]

I'm only responding to a question. No need to get on my case like that. =/

 

[Shiri]

Okay, I'm just going to close this since people can't seem to get off each others' backs.

If Bwett could please let me know when he's done with an analysis (Furbz, too, if he would like), I will re-open this, have the analysis posted, and continue discussion.

If Bwett or Furbz do not want to submit an analysis, I will reopen this in a week or two once people have learned to chill out and discuss in an on-topic and polite manner.

I have gone out of my way to not give infractions and warnings in this thread, but I see that being a hard@$$ is something I should be doing more of because my plan to be lenient just isn't working. When this thread reopens, I will give one final warning and any off-topic discussion will be immediately infracted.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed thus far and I look forward to some more discussion when this thread reopens. If any of you have any questions, please PM or VM me.

 

[Shiri]

Bwett's analysis follows:

For the Yoshi-Samus match-up, it is similar to a tower defense game and you are the enemy. You will face a barrage of attacks trying to get inside while Samus tries to repel you. Unfortunately, Samus has several tools at her disposal to do so that work extremely well. The basics of her defense will be homing missile and zair. Despite the simplicity of these two elements, Yoshi has a tremendously hard time getting within this defense. What most characters use as their way of avoiding the spam is powershielding and shielding in general. Yoshi, however, takes over two times the number of frames to drop his shield. Once Yoshi puts up his shield, Samus can put amazing pressure until you are forced to either spotdodge or roll which can be punished with charged shot. Therefore, we don't have the luxury of that option. Also, you can try throwing eggs and outspam her, but she has much more tools at her disposal, and depending on distance between the two of you, can punish the lag of your throw. ECE's are a better option, but that will give you 3 or 4 eggs at most, and she can dtilt or charged shot you in the process.

There are some strategies you can use to avoid the spam. Bair can swat away almost all his spam except for zair. Also, you can use approaching airdodges. Spotdodges do well against zair but not so much homing missiles. They slow down and can stop in place right where you spotdodge. In essence, Yoshi has an uphill battle to work with. All Samus has to do is keep her distance and constantly have homing missiles and zair out. If you try to bat away the missiles with bair, the zair will peg you. If you spotdodge the zair, the homing missiles will get you. Furthermore, it is easy for her to punish airdodge or spotdodge with charged shot. Because of all of this, you cannot avoid damage in this matchup. That being said, always approach and take the damage without looking back. The reason I say so is because the second you get within the zair, all that damage you just received will be given back. Yoshi's jab, grab, tilts and usmash work really well against her close range ground game. Keep an eye on her up-b because it can stop you in your tracks once you get close. Make sure to SDI out of it to avoid most of the damage.

For those that have never played this matchup, one thing you must always watch out for is dair. It is an EXTREMELY versatile move. Not only does it spike and kill early, but if you are on the ground when it hits, it can combo into a variety of different moves that give huge damage. I'm fairly positive that our uair outranges her dair if spaced properly but it is a risk.

As for stages, avoid long stages with platforms, especially PS1. Samus loves that stage. You want any short stage or uneven stage. Yoshi's Island is a good CP because it can mess up her zairs. Also, Delfino and Halberd work really well. The reason why is because now you have a very reliable approach against Samus. You can drop under the stage, throw 1 or 2 eggs to peck at their shield, and then using rising dairs, bairs, or uairs. It is really powerful.

Please continue the discussion.

This is a final warning. Please discuss the matchup. We are not discussing who is the best Samus, the best Yoshi, or the best moderator ever (**AHEM**). Comments considered unnecessary and off-topic will be infracted. The golden rule is: if you have to ask if the comment you're making is questionable, then it's probably not a good idea.

 

[.Marik]

Briiiiiiiiiiiiiing-ha.

I missed a couple of pages, read through them, and then read the summary of the Samus v. Yoshi matchup. Very nicely written, perhaps I was underestimating Samus.

We do have a poor shield, and good Samus players know how to defend very well...

And Samus does have a **** Dair. But still, 35:65? Yoshi's tilts work extremely well against Samus. We're fine, providing we can get past the defensive barrier of missile attacks Samus has implemented.

Hmm. This certantly is a fun matchup, I should've played more Samus players at Pownz. I did play one, and it was a pretty easy battle. I just got up close, and punished the hell out of him, since Samus has laggy attacks and low priority. I was still wary, because I took this thread's information into consideration, lolololol.

So now we know Delfino allows us to approach and get at Samus. Good stuff, should come in handy. I agree maybe 55:45, or 50:50 would be an appropriate matchup ratio.

 

[Silent Beast]

Also, Delfino and Halberd work really well. The reason why is because now you have a very reliable approach against Samus. You can drop under the stage, throw 1 or 2 eggs to peck at their shield, and then using rising dairs, bairs, or uairs. It is really powerful.

Why can't Samus just short hop dair to spike us as we come up?

 

[Bwett]

Use the eggs to keep them shielding, but uair should beat dair (haven't tested). Either way, it is a possibility, although not too risky compared to our other approaches.

 

[bigman40]

Even though we technically beat Dair, you don't really wanna attempt that when you have nothing to save you after getting spiked (remember that we can trade hits).

 

[Shiri]

Samus down air is slow enough to allow you time to change your mind and airdodge if you spot it.

 

[.Marik]

Samus down air is slow enough to allow you time to change your mind and airdodge if you spot it.

Samus's Dair also has a very solid hitbox range. I haven't personally tested it, but it would be pretty risky, considering we'll get spiked if the stage is in motion.

Uair should beat out Dair, but as Scatz said, we can exchange blows, and once again Yoshi will be ****ed.

Rising aerials all day.