Yoshi v. Samus [Summary Updated: 8/17/2009]

[bigman40]

If it's wiser to counterpick to another character, then it's to the point where it needs to be 30:70. 40:60 means that it's a disadvantage, but it's winnable, and you wouldn't HAVE to pick another character as the wiser choice unless you didn't know the MU enough.

 

[auroreon]

this is why these 5 values don't need to be included. It's practically a hard counter since the fact that we have to work harder than we need to work for a 40:60

I actually think we should go the other way and include any value between 1-100. What I mean is having ratios of say 53:47 and the like, I know how silly that sounds initially but really I think when it comes down to it making the matchup ratio as accurate as possible is what we should be aiming for.
Yes, it will be difficult to determine a value but I think its a goal thats deffinatly achievable.

Going to other way would just be even more misleading... as far as I see it the Samus matchup is not 60:40 or 70:30 by any stretch of the imagination.
This matchup is actually a prime example of why I think using ratios with any value is justified. I think the problem we are having is that the 65:35 is maybe a little too strong but 60:40 is probably not accurate enough either.
From everything I have seen of Samus and both sides of this discussion I would probably say a 63:37 give or take.
I don't have direct experience against the BEST Samus mains out there however so how valid my oppinion on this perticular MU is, is up to you.

 

[Metatitan]

30:70 implies samus is a hard counter, which she is not (she is a counter but not a hard counter). 40:60 implies we almost go even with her which we sure as hell do not. 35:65 implies (at least for me) somewhere in between the two, where the odds are that you will not win but that you can still pull off a win.

 

[Chaco]

I actually think we should go the other way and include any value between 1-100. What I mean is having ratios of say 53:47 and the like, I know how silly that sounds initially but really I think when it comes down to it making the matchup ratio as accurate as possible is what we should be aiming for.
Yes, it will be difficult to determine a value but I think its a goal thats deffinatly achievable.

Going to other way would just be even more misleading... as far as I see it the Samus matchup is not 60:40 or 70:30 by any stretch of the imagination.
This matchup is actually a prime example of why I think using ratios with any value is justified. I think the problem we are having is that the 65:35 is maybe a little too strong but 60:40 is probably not accurate enough either.
From everything I have seen of Samus and both sides of this discussion I would probably say a 63:37 give or take.
I don't have direct experience against the BEST Samus mains out there however so how valid my oppinion on this perticular MU is, is up to you.

That'd be a gigantic pain in the ***. Let's just stick to 10's if not that, 5's.

For Samus, I agree with Meta really. Samus is a counter, but not a hard counter. So it's not definitively 60:40 Samus, it's more accurate probably around 65:35 Samus. 70:30 is just not even right, that's a hard counter. Which to us would be like a bad Lucario.

I'm sticking by 65:35. We've got thinngs on Samus, and shes got more on us.

 

[Xyro77]

I'm sticking by 65:35. We've got thinngs on Samus, and shes got more on us.

sounds fair

 

[auroreon]

I think 65:35 is probably the most agreeable ratio for the Samus matchup, does anyone have any objections to 65:35 that they want to bring forward?

 

[.Marik]

I think 65:35 is probably the most agreeable ratio for the Samus matchup, does anyone have any objections to 65:35 that they want to bring forward?

I do.

55:45 or 60:40 sounds better to me. It also depends on the stages, so it can't necessarily be set in stone.

 

[auroreon]

I do.

55:45 or 60:40 sounds better to me. It also depends on the stages, so it can't necessarily be set in stone.

All matchups depend on stage, ratios are not there to determine the exact advantage one player has over another. They are just supposed to give a general idea of the ratio of what each character has over the other and how effectively one character performs over another when used by players of equal skill.

 

[.Marik]

They are just supposed to give a general idea of the ratio

Exactly.

And saying that Samus is that much of a counter/hard-counter for Yoshi is pretty silly.

 

[Metatitan]

Exactly.

And saying that Samus is that much of a counter/hard-counter for Yoshi is pretty silly.

Please read the entire thread about why samus shuts down yoshi before you make hollow statements with no evidence to back them up. You say we are 45:55 or 40:60, now care to explain why you think it is neutral. So far you've just been throwing out numbers without any evidence.

 

[.Marik]

Please read the entire thread about why samus shuts down yoshi before you make hollow statements with no evidence to back them up. You say we are 45:55 or 40:60, now care to explain why you think it is neutral. So far you've just been throwing out numbers without any evidence.

Without any evidence? Have you been ****ing reading what I've stated numerous times?

Okay, I'm going to say it sloooowly. In case you miss it again.

If we can get past the defensive barrier of missile attacks and Z-Air, Samus has no priority, and besides Dair, FSmash and DTilt, cannot kill. DTilt is pretty laggy and Samus could get punished for it.

I'm not denying it's possibly in her favour, but if you people honestly think it's 35:65, that's worse than Wolf or Falco **** us. They have lazers, solid ground games with plenty of killers.

 

[Metatitan]

Without any evidence? Have you been ****ing reading what I've stated numerous times?

Okay, I'm going to say it sloooowly. In case you miss it again.

If we can get past the defensive barrier of missile attacks and Z-Air, Samus has no priority, and besides Dair, FSmash and DTilt, cannot kill. DTilt is pretty laggy and Samus could get punished for it.

I'm not denying it's possibly in her favour, but if you people honestly think it's 35:65, that's worse than Wolf or Falco **** us. They have lazers, solid ground games with plenty of killers.

Both what you said about Falco and Wolf are incorrect but those are other matchup discussions and will not be discussed here.

You wrote IF you can get past her defense. Well good luck with that. Even if you do most of the time Up B Out of Shield will destroy your comboes.

She has plenty of priority, Dair and Uair are really good.

Yes samus has trouble killing. So what, we do too. All in all she will wrack up so much more damage on you than her that it really doesn't matter. Not to mention charged shot ***** us so it is easier to kill us than most other characters.

 

[.Marik]

Wolf and Falco have good ground games. Falco is a weird character though... his shield, DThrow ChainGrabs and aerials are also really good. But enough of that. >_<

Okay, good point. Not bad. People aren't supposed to include people mindgames into matchup discussions... so yeah.

However, we can still debate baiting, since it's character specific. :]

So, Meta and everyone else. You say Samus shuts down our approach, so what can we do to overcome this? Bait? Play aggressive? Defensive?

Come on, there has to be a way we can make the matchup slightly better. I KNOW I'm not the only one who thinks people are underrating Yoshi here.

 

[Delta-cod]

If we're just throwing out random ideas, maybe jumping and egging could be interesting to try. I'm not familiar with good Samus camping though, so I don't know if they SH Missiles or not.

We can also bair through all the projectiles I believe, so maybe bairing through a missile then DJing away and lobbing an egg over there would work to mess up the camping. From there we can either egg some more or approach.

Note: I've never played a good Samus, if anyone has a good video showcasing one, it'd be appreciated. =]

 

[Metatitan]

You most likely can't bait samus because she will be camping you. You can't camp her because she outcamps you. You really have no true options to approach her =/

 

[Deleted member]

Yes you can bait samus and punish her, too bad she can do the same to you.
Yoshi has superior close range options, but samus can basically up b most of our approaches.

Marik, you think yoshi is too good

 

[.Marik]

Yes you can bait samus and punish her, too bad she can do the same to you.
Yoshi has superior close range options, but samus can basically up b most of our approaches.

I see. The only thing we can do... is perhaps shut her down before she can set up her projectiles and baiting techniques? So basically, we don't give Samus a chance to initiate any of her moves or pressuring tactics. If course this isn't 100% efficient, but maybe we should just shut her down through close-range combat because we excel slightly in that area. Playing defensive isn't going to work, Samus can do everything we do, better.

I remember Xyro saying UpB is highly punishable, perhaps a Uair or something can be of essence?

Marik, you think yoshi is too good

Naw, I just think he's better than people say he is.

 

[Metatitan]

I see. The only thing we can do... is perhaps shut her down before she can set up her projectiles and baiting techniques? So basically, we don't give Samus a chance to initiate any of her moves or pressuring tactics. If course this isn't 100% efficient, but maybe we should just shut her down through close-range combat because we excel slightly in that area. Playing defensive isn't going to work, Samus can do everything we do, better.

I remember Xyro saying UpB is highly punishable, perhaps a Uair or something can be of essence?



Naw, I just think he's better than people say he is.

Yoshi doesn't really punish that hard and how are you going to shut her down from the very start of a match lol? Samus has us beat =/

And yoshi isnt THAT much better than people are saying, just a little better ^^

 

[.Marik]

Yoshi doesn't really punish that hard and how are you going to shut her down from the very start of a match lol? Samus has us beat =/

We jump into the ****?

It could work, I'm just ruling out possibilities lol.

And yoshi isnt THAT much better than people are saying, just a little better ^^

Yeah, top of D Tier at least.

 

[Metatitan]

Anyways can we stop discussing samus? It's been pretty well established that it's 35:65 her favor.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

I was just about to say that.

 

[bigman40]

You wanna punish UpB, then DI out of it. Not hard at all if they're going to abuse it to punish us most of the time.

 

[Shiri]

Anyways can we stop discussing samus? It's been pretty well established that it's 35:65 her favor.

Matchup discussion only ever truly stops when both characters have been explored to their limit.

As a seasoned veteran of Melee, I can tell you that these threads will probably be minorly active for up to another year (based on trends of Brawl) before they completely die out, and that's only because characters in this game aren't as in-depth/gimmicky as they were in Melee.

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi definately is not top of D tier.

Also, up b is only punishable if it misses,

 

[bigman40]

That is definitely wrong Stocky. You can DI out of UpB, and I've done it and punished them for it. You have to mainly DI out before the last hit gets to you (of course, the quicker you do it, the better your punishing chances), and with SDI, it's not exceedingly hard to get out. To get out and punish consistently? Yes, that's something that needs practice.

 

[Metatitan]

It's still almost unpunishable if done right on say battlefield

 

[bigman40]

Well duh. That should be easily known if people have DIed out of it already. The only stages that aren't as open enough to have platforms effect things much would be BF, Halberd, YI, Castle Siege, and Brinstar (Some of Delfino too). Plus, if you're not knocked into the falling animation from the UpB, it still wouldn't be as hard to punish since you can follow them through the platform (Fastfall anyone?). This mainly only goes through when were in that animation since it'll force us to get out of it before we can fastfall and go through the platform, and if you aren't DIing out of the UpB early enough, then you just ain't gonna get any punishing done anyway.

 

[Deleted member]

That is definitely wrong Stocky. You can DI out of UpB, and I've done it and punished them for it. You have to mainly DI out before the last hit gets to you (of course, the quicker you do it, the better your punishing chances), and with SDI, it's not exceedingly hard to get out. To get out and punish consistently? Yes, that's something that needs practice.

How do u DI out of it. Ive tried freaking double stick DI to get out and that doesnt work.

 

[bigman40]

DI out to the outside, then follow it like a spin cycle. If I have to, I'll get a vid if people can't do it.

 

[Metatitan]

I've DI'd out of it :3
But as samus lol

 

[auroreon]

How do u DI out of it. Ive tried freaking double stick DI to get out and that doesnt work.

QCDI diagonally up and toward the side of Samus that you were previously on. So if you were to the left of Samus, QCDI up and left and smack the C-stick. Thats what works for me at least.

 

[Deleted member]

This matchup may have gotten .5 easier
Thats so cool haha, what a random way to DI out of a move.

 

[auroreon]

Which Yoshis have actually had a good amount of experience against pro Samus? Bwett and others?
Are they saying 65:35, because if that is the macthup they are pushing for then I think we can probably agree on that ratio.
I want to play some matches against a top Samus so I can get a first hand knowledge on the matchup, unfortuantly I don't think there is anyone over here who plays Samus that well.
At the moment I can't personally see it at 65:35, but that can be put down to my lack of experience against Samus so if those who do have that experience are adament on 65:35 then I think we have a ratio.

 

[Metatitan]

Killerjawz (mains samus) goes to the tournies that you go to, but he's far from pro with her =/

 

[.Marik]

Killerjawz (mains samus) goes to the tournies that you go to, but he's far from pro with her =/

We have tha-carter, although his Snake and Pikachu are tons better than his Samus.

 

[Deleted member]

Bwett and furbs both said 35:65 and they both play xyro.

 

[.Marik]

A bunch of people in the Tier List v.3 Thread (including Sir 0rion) disagreed that the matchup with Samus was anywhere near 65:35.

Poltergust should know.

 

[Poltergust]

Huh? o_O

I agree with MarikYoshi, but I stopped posting in this topic due to lack of match-up experience (no Samus players in Florida... at all). What did I say about Samus in the tier list topic? I don't remember...

 

[Deleted member]

A bunch of people in the Tier List v.3 Thread (including Sir 0rion) disagreed that the matchup with Samus was anywhere near 65:35.

Poltergust should know.

Thanks for telling us?
I dont see what you are getting at, people with no matchup experience on it/dont play either character arent really important in a discussion of yoshi vs samus XD

 

[.Marik]

Huh? o_O

I agree with MarikYoshi, but I stopped posting in this topic due to lack of match-up experience (no Samus players in Florida... at all). What did I say about Samus in the tier list topic? I don't remember...

That you "gotta stop listening to Metatitan".

Thanks for telling us?
I dont see what you are getting at, people with no matchup experience on it/dont play either character arent really important in a discussion of yoshi vs samus XD

You don't think anybody in the Tier List v.3 thread plays Samus or Yoshi?

Still, they understand general concepts, I would assume.