Yoshi v. Falco

[Z'zgashi]

"Edit 1: Falco AND Ganon can only be Egg layed out of release offstage.
Sheik AND Squirtle CANNOT escape the grab release to Fair offsage.
Wolf AND Fox are immune from anything inesacpeable. However, you can possibly pressure him away to get a efficient gimp kill.

Edit 2: Ness can be Uaired out of release."
^
^
The 1st part is almost true. Olimar can be Egg Lay'd and spiked out of grab release as well. The spike has to be frame perfect though as Scatz showed on his Youtube video. I've done it myself, and I gotta' say..It's pretty legit.

And Ness CAN be U-air'd out of grab release. You have to be quick with it, but just give it a try. ; )

Can you link to that oli vid, i wanna see for myself

 

[Z'zgashi]

Falco v. Yoshi starts now.

 

[YOSHssb]

I don't have much Falco experience, but I do know that you should play the beginning of each stock the same way that Fox plays against Pikachu (don't get grabbed until you're at a percentage where it won't give Falco a free 60%). Seems like this is one of the few match-ups where you can rely on good reaction time. If you ever see Falco doing his side-B, short-hop neutral aerial, and if you react quickly enough, you'll always be fine (as long as you are prepared to space away if he cancels it any).

I forget what the frame data on Falco for a chaingrab was? Did we have like a 3-frame window or can Falco always get out of it even with perfect timing? If the CG is guaranteed, then this MU seems to come down to who can grab whom first. With Falco, it's a lot of free damage, and with Yoshi, it sets up nicely for a gimp (especially on a flat stage or one with a walk-off like Castle Siege). I'm pretty sure Falco can camp harder than Yoshi and it's not easy to approach, but I do know that if you get hit with a laser, the hit-stun on it is pathetic and you can attack almost immediately after getting hit, so unless Falco is literally right next to you (and he shouldn't be lasering at that point), then you shouldn't get grabbed or attacked following a laser if you attack him back or jump away or something.

I think Falco's got the MU about 60:40, possibly worse, but I'm open to be flexible as the discussion progresses and after I've played Gnes and Ozz.

 

[Z'zgashi]

We have a 3 frame opening due to his landing animation so you're right

And approaching is way annoying, but up close we can do damage. Falco has a definite advantage though. I don't have much exp here either

 

[Poltergust]

I thought you had to be frame-perfect to chain-grab Falco?

 

[YOSHssb]

Even if you have to be perfect, you've got like 1/20th of a second to fudge around with, so you've got LOADS of time... yeah, ok so it's very precise, but as long as it's possible, it's just a timing thing that you can learn. Just the fact that we CAN chaingrab Falco makes the MU a little easier. Seems like this is one of those fights where a LOT can be decided just by what stage you fight on. If you get CPed to Jungle Japes (because you had a brain amoeba nomming on your common sense at the exact moment you said your ban), then it will go to a 3rd game. I think Delfino, Halberd, and Rainbow Cruise would be good counter stages against Falco, but as for a neutral, I'd say Smashville or Battle Field are the best.

 

[Sinister Slush]

My brother mains Falco, and One of SA's players Suspect (Random) uses Falco a bit so I know a bit about this MU.
Lasers shutdown almost everything we try to do, DJC ETS Air game again almost everything, except for Bair and another move or two that i'm forgetting.
For chaingrabbing Falco has that on us and don't try to escape most of the time he'll keep doing that till we get to the edge and spike us. If you tried to escape the CG then you have no jump since you basically never touched the platform, 1 stock gone.
Though with our CG, We Have to be fast and precise. One mess up and we're gonna be punished hard. With the CG Nair and Bair being sorta our only options (Unless Falco doesn't use Reflector even after us throwing eggs about 5 times) then i'd say this MU is most likely 60:40 Falco's Favor.

 

[Poltergust]

Even if you have to be perfect, you've got like 1/20th of a second to fudge around with, so you've got LOADS of time... yeah, ok so it's very precise, but as long as it's possible, it's just a timing thing that you can learn.

By frame perfect, I meant that if you are off by even one frame Falco can spotdodge it. You don't have any leeway. So, it's not 1/20th of a second, it's 1/60th.

That's why I usually don't chain-grab Falco unless there is a walk-off or if he's near the edge of the stage. Doing more than 3 times in a row is incredibly difficult, especially since he can grab-release himself at different times. When I don't want to chain-grab Falco, I usually just dash attack or do a SH n-air. It usually hits them out of their spot-dodge (which they pretty much will always do when they are getting chain-grabbed).

 

[Z'zgashi]

We have 3 frames on falco, im positive. And he's not even the hardest. We only have 2 frames to work with against ZSS

 

[YOSHssb]

Yeah, but Polt does have a point. With Falco, if you mess up the timing, then you get CGed right back or you get punished hard. With ZSS, even though the window is smaller, you don't get punished if you go for it and miss it, and even if you somehow do, it's not as much as Falco would do. But along the same lines as Falco, if they're spot dodging, you can run past 'em and pivot grab, and then it becomes a guessing game of what Falco can/should do once he gets grabbed.

 

[indigestible_wad]

I've never really gotten the chaingrab down on falco, and the guy who I usually play agianst has gotten the timing down for spotdodge pretty well, so usually what I do after a grab release is run up like I'm going to try the chaingrab, but charge my upsmash instead. I don't do it every time, but I've found that there are a million different ways to punish the spotdodge out of grab release.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I get often it, just doing it for 3-4 GRs straight is difficult...

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

I dont think its that hard once you get the timing down guys.... seriously talk about how it can help instead of how "hard" it is

 

[Z'zgashi]

Oh man, it's incredibly helpful, if you cg him to the edge then gr him offstage, he just took a good amount of damage and he's in a bad position, even with his second jump. Without it though, he shouldn't ever make it back.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

He should never NOT have his 2nd jump because he touches the ground before the regrab

 

[Delta-cod]

This match up isn't that bad. Seriously. If I can put up a fight against Larry(Hi namesearch?), then it can't be worse than 45:55. It's probably even more even, lol.

The free 60% is soooooooo gayyyyyyyyyyy though.

 

[Sharky]

it's 2 frames against falco and 3 frames against ZSS for the CG (check yika's frame data thread or the yoshi guide for the numbers), but ZSS is harder because you can't buffer the dash for her chaingrab.

 

[Poltergust]

Huh? Why? Isn't it the same for every character?

 

[Sharky]

falco's timing is obviously because of landing no question there, for ZSS I think it has to do with how far out she goes.

 

[Airborne]

I think this MU is probably 60:40 Falco, due to the fact that he has the CG on us, which can screw us up pretty badly, and it is pretty difficult to get in on Falco. However, when we do get in on Falco, we have the ability to mess him up.

I know this is a bit of a stretch for an idea, but why don't we try to camp falco until we're outside of CG %'s? We're going to be losing the fight, but hey, we won't be losing a stock at ridiculously low %'s.

 

[Delta-cod]

I think this MU is probably 60:40 Falco, due to the fact that he has the CG on us, which can screw us up pretty badly, and it is pretty difficult to get in on Falco. However, when we do get in on Falco, we have the ability to mess him up.

I know this is a bit of a stretch for an idea, but why don't we try to camp falco until we're outside of CG %'s? We're going to be losing the fight, but hey, we won't be losing a stock at ridiculously low %'s.

Ha, you approach Falco.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

I know this is a bit of a stretch for an idea, but why don't we try to camp falco until we're outside of CG %'s? We're going to be losing the fight, but hey, we won't be losing a stock at ridiculously low %'s.

I had that idea watching some random DK play Falco on Japes way back, but no way to test it lol. I still think it might work.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Huh? Why? Isn't it the same for every character?

because the distance the fly out of grab release, the height they go out of grab release, and the speed they fall all effect where the other character ends up after a release. If we can cg them, they have to end up in an area that yoshi can then grab. Falco flies an average forward distance but also releases high. His fall speed then makes him fall to the ground giving him landing lag, but due to the height he gets out of release, it takes him just enough time to hit solid to give us the time for another grab. I hope that made sense.

 

[Poltergust]

Actually, I was just referring to the buffering. Is there a particular reason why we can't buffer a dash on ZSS' chain-grab?

 

[Sharky]

I don't know for sure so ask yika, but I do think it has to do with the distance

 

[Z'zgashi]

She flies far OoGR, that's why

 

[YOSHssb]

I was suggesting staying away from Falco until we're out of CG % earlier (like I said, the same way that Fox plays against Pikachu), but Falco beats Yoshi in camping, so I'm not sure how useful it would be. CG aside, what can Falco do if he's in the air and we're below him? Basically every option that I'm running in my head, we can get a grab on him or juggle him back into the air. Any ideas?

 

[Poltergust]

I don't know for sure so ask yika, but I do think it has to do with the distance

Oh, so that's what he meant. I thought he was saying that we can't buffer the dash for ZSS' chain-grab.

 

[indigestible_wad]

We have eggs, falco has lasers. Our eggs are almost as annoying as lasers. So if you hit him half the time, he's got an annoying projectile that's getting him for about three times the damage as one laser. And then if you time it right so that the laser cancels the ending lag, you've essentially got him getting hit for more damage than he's giving you. I know it's not that simple, but on the occasion that you do start hitting him, he's going to approach, probably, in which case you can pick your poison. It probably would be nice to know the frame data for throwing the egg versus a short hop laser.

 

[YOSHssb]

Yeah, I think given a reasonable amount of distance between Yoshi and Falco, Falco has time to shoot a laser, see the animation of Yoshi throwing an egg, and be able to reflect it back no problem. Falco's lag after shooting a laser (especially in the air) is leagues faster than Yoshi's after an egg-toss.

 

[Sharky]

Oh, so that's what he meant. I thought he was saying that we can't buffer the dash for ZSS' chain-grab.

On Zero Suit Samus
-ZSS can't Move: 50

Buffered
Doesn't work

Non Buffered
Yoshi can't Move: 29
Buffered Dash: 30
Grab Input: 31-33
Regrab: 50

I meant to say you can't buffer the grab my mistake lol

 

[Z'zgashi]

Dont we have a little extra time framewise (and by a little i mean like... 1 frame) as ZSS doesn't hit the ground and her airdodge doesn't come out frame 1?


Also, this is falco mu, so ill try and stay on task... Is our jab faster or just as fast as falco's? I cant remember, but i think they're the same...

 

[Sharky]

her down-b gets her out of the way iirc

falco's jab comes out frame 2, ours comes out frame 3, so his is faster.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Oh fu- well that sucks... and all this time i thought we were even... huh...

 

[Airborne]

Actually, according to Scatz, Falco's jab comes out on Frame 1 1/2. XDDD

 

[Sharky]

lmao yeah I remember him saying that, not one of his brightest moments XD

 

[Thibault]

Sorry for being harsh, I dislike ignorance. Falco can easily get 40+ damage from the chaingrab.

lol so true, also just throwing this out there but i have been able to land cg-spike-footstool at 8% just throwing that number out there just incase anyone wants to mess with someone and sand bag a bit lol

 

[Suspect]

My brother mains Falco, and One of SA's players Suspect (Random) uses Falco a bit so I know a bit about this MU.
Lasers shutdown almost everything we try to do, DJC ETS Air game again almost everything, except for Bair and another move or two that i'm forgetting.
For chaingrabbing Falco has that on us and don't try to escape most of the time he'll keep doing that till we get to the edge and spike us. If you tried to escape the CG then you have no jump since you basically never touched the platform, 1 stock gone.
Though with our CG, We Have to be fast and precise. One mess up and we're gonna be punished hard. With the CG Nair and Bair being sorta our only options (Unless Falco doesn't use Reflector even after us throwing eggs about 5 times) then i'd say this MU is most likely 60:40 Falco's Favor.

Did I ever play you with Falco? I should use him more.

 

[Yikarur]

meeeh I didn't see the threads and that so much discussions are going on atm x_x
the Reason we can't buffer a dash grab on ZSS is how Yoshis tongue extends. If we buffer a dash grab the tongue isn't in range of ZSS in frame 50 (the frame we can grab her) because the tongue is not far enough extended.


this MU is theoretically bad but the CG gives us so much options and so much gimping possibilities that it goes in a far better way. (even though I tend to fail at the CG lol)

and you should always try Grab Release fair on the opponent to test if they know the MU or not, I spiked a lot Falcos even though it doesn't work guaranteed.

 

[Slain Avenger]

Yoshi has a nice short hope to spike combo that works well if Falco doesn't react quick enough, and can kill him at very low percents. I have few experience with this match up but last time I played him I was winning by a stock and that little "combo" cost me the game. I'd say 60:40 in falco's favor, although it's a pretty stage dependent fight.