Yoshi v. Falco

[Tidycats29]

dun dun dun

burnt seems to be owning still i c

just thought id point out

egg spam him while he is recovering low
free damage

some may freak and side B on stage
just pivot grab them

 

[hadesblade]

Lol... EC falcos.... well there's one that's great but I think he mains snake now

Kismet mains snake now?

 

[Metatitan]

Kismet mains snake now?

Yeah I think he does.

Anyways falco ***** yoshi, the reason burntsocks beat larry was cuz larry didn't know the matchup nearly as well as stocky did, it's like how yesterday a sonic main called X was beasting at a socal tourny.

Don't get me wrong, the sonic was REALLY ****ing good but NO ONE knew the MU cuz WC has no sonics (at all). Apparently larry ***** the **** out of stocky in friendlies so I guess he started to learn the matchup.

 

[bigman40]

Kismet is still Falco. Like I said before, Yoshi cannot fight Falco. He can't take the pressure Falco can put out.


~Mieu

 

[Deleted member]

False
Ive written long things on how to fight falco, sorry if you cant do it.
Post a vid of you vs kismet, you probably arent gimping him, you cant beat falco if you dont gimp him.

 

[Metatitan]

From what I've heard the only falco that actually knows the yoshi matchup as well as you know falco is Nygin, and don't you always lose to him?

 

[Shiri]

LOL @ this matchup

 

[Deleted member]

I havent played nyjin in forever i think i can pull it off.
Its not like easy win haha its even i said and if they know it its really hard!

 

[.Marik]

Yoshi does not go even against Falco.

It's quite simple and logical.

 

[Shiri]

Do tell. :D

 

[Delta-cod]

Yoshi does not go even against Falco.

It's quite simple and logical.

Yoshi ***** every other member of the cast.

It's quite simple and logical.

Spoiler

Evidence?

 

[.Marik]

Falco is basically a better version of Wolf, who ***** us.

He shuts us down, punishes Yoshi for mistakes, and there's no way Yoshi can implement defensive techniques against a competent Falco player easily, we'd have to play extremely unorthodox and effectively use mindgames and screw them up early.

Falco has a hard time killing on-stage, that's virtually his only drawback though.

Laser spam, ChainGrabs, and Falco racks up damage easily.

 

[Delta-cod]

Falco doesn't have the gay Bair which walls everything we can possibly do. :D

We have a CG > Spike on Falco that we don't have on Wolf. :D

SHDL is not as hard to get around as you make it out to be. The lasers are (generally) always fired at the same heights, allowing you to maneuver around them. You CAN get Falco as he lands. You CAN (though it's not reliable it's still funny) egg them out of it. You can Usmash him. He can't phantasm away since all you have to do is Nair.

Falco can't kill. You SHOULD live longer. You can gimp him, while he can't really do the same for you. He only racks up quick damage at the start with his CG. Once you're out of CG percents, he can't rack easy damage unless you're having a difficult time and getting abused by his camping.

 

[.Marik]

Well, I stand corrected...

Falco is pretty good at killing off-stage, though. At least to my experience.

But it can't possibly be dead even. 55:45? Yoshi just lacks more qualities than Falco himself does.

 

[Delta-cod]

I'm not good with ratios, so I'll leave those to others.

Falco's not good at killing us offstage because he lacks good horizontal air speed, so our AD is very safe against him. The worst I can think of suffering if he chases us offstage and we AD past him is a phantasm, but we'll already be above ground so that's fine.

I'd say it's even. At least all my experience thus far has told me.

 

[Metatitan]

Falco's lazers **** yoshi harder than wolf's Bair, at least you can pivot grab his Bair if you space right

The cg has been proven to be nonexistant, tho the grab release does put him in a horrible position.

He can cg-> spike -> footstool you, Larry 3 stocked burntsocks several times this way

Falco doesn't have any issues getting the kill on yoshi compared to yoshi getting the kill on falco

I'm just walking on sunshine :D

 

[Delta-cod]

Falco's lazers **** yoshi harder than wolf's Bair, at least you can pivot grab his Bair if you space right

I disagree, since Lasers are all he can camp with, while with Wolf we have both the Bair and the lasers to worry about. Wolf's also got better aerial mobility.

The cg has been proven to be nonexistant, tho the grab release does put him in a horrible position.

Have we not proved it possible with frame data already?

He can cg-> spike -> footstool you, Larry 3 stocked burntsocks several times this way

I believe Socks already said the footstools were his fault, and not even guaranteed.

Falco doesn't have any issues getting the kill on yoshi compared to yoshi getting the kill on falco

Falco has a lot of trouble getting the kill. It's one of his flaws. Even Falco mains know Falco can't kill. We have a good set up with the CG > Fair. Falco's main set up is from his CG, which ends at about 40%.

 

[Metatitan]

I disagree, since Lasers are all he can camp with, while with Wolf we have both the Bair and the lasers to worry about. Wolf's also got better aerial mobility.

Falco's lazers are faster, combo, and he can camp much harder with his side B and lazers than wolf ever could.

Have we not proved it possible with frame data already?

We proved it to not be possible with frame data.

I believe Socks already said the footstools were his fault, and not even guaranteed.

You're still taking a hit whether you're footstooled or not because of the airdodge he can now bait because of the footstool threat.

Falco has a lot of trouble getting the kill. It's one of his flaws. Even Falco mains know Falco can't kill. We have a good set up with the CG > Fair. Falco's main set up is from his CG, which ends at about 40%.

Up smash is pretty reliable as a KO move on yoshi, he won't really need much else against yoshi.

Honestly, let burntsocks defend this topic, ur just making his argument weaker.

 

[Silent Beast]

The cg has been proven to be nonexistant, tho the grab release does put him in a horrible position.

He can cg-> spike -> footstool you, Larry 3 stocked burntsocks several times this way

CG has been proven to exist. There's a 2-frame window. As for Falco's CG-->spike, wouldn't SDI/teching it just pretty much remove the footstool risk? The issue with the spike is that you're put in a horrible position, which teching would alleviate.

Have we not proved it possible with frame data already?

No, it was offstage egg lay that was proved on Falco (and Ganon). Fair is only guaranteed on Sheik and Squirtle.

 

[hadesblade]

Wolf's camp is harder for us to deal with as he shuts down all our aerials with bair. Our nair goes through phantasm and our bair beats any of falco's aerials.

Usmash is reliable as far as knockback, but he has no reliable way to land it in ko %'s. With falco's fall speed it's fairly reliable for us to combo a bair into a usmash/fsmash on him, and with his weight they will kill pretty early.

SDI the spike.

And the chaingrab has been proven to work lol. 2 frame window. We also get an egg lay out of it.

EDIT: ninja'd ._.

 

[Depster]

I'm also thinking even, just because the cg, bair, djc egg lay will go through lasers, power shielding is now known, and falco's lack of off stage anything

 

[Deleted member]

A few things:
Mariks argument lost every single aspect of its credibility when he said falco is just a better version of wolf.
I can think of 10 cahracters that are more similar than those two.
"But...they are from the same series!"
Lol


Ok
After the cg to spike its a prediction game, one wrong move and you die, and its generally more advanteous for him because you cant attack or else you die lol, so he just has to wait for w/e u do.

Both characters have a very hard time getting the kill, fsmash ***** its really annoyingly safe cuz yoshi cant punish a good one out of shield.

Offstage he can sometimes kill us, dont go straight at him, never attack, and always DI towards the stage so you can tech a spike if need be.

 

[.Marik]

A few things:
Mariks argument lost every single aspect of its credibility when he said falco is just a better version of wolf.
I can think of 10 cahracters that are more similar than those two.
"But...they are from the same series!"
Lol

People are arguing that Falco goes even against Yoshi, yet all of your arguments are giving off the impression that it's definitely Falco's favour.

Falco is a better version of Wolf, maybe not in this particular matchup, but in the overall game it's undeniable.

Wolf can kill Yoshi easily but has a mediocre recovery. Falco can space, rack up damage, and bait really well. ChainGrab>Dair>Spike usually works.

Go on. Yoshi has nothing on Falco that Falco doesn't have on Yoshi.

It's not even.

 

[Deleted member]

WHAT????
Falco and wolf arent closely related as characters except for their neutral B.
Having animations that slightly resemble the other doesnt make them similar.

They play completely differently, all of their a moves are much different, etc...
Its deniable because its not true and i dont understand that after a year and a half you could think that.

Heres why its even in 2-3 sentences in my opinion:
Yoshi can combo falco so easily and its kind of like the guessing game offstage except yoshi has like 5 options to juggle falco. Our up air beats his down air easily in case you didnt know.

Yoshi gimps falco soooo easily. People are lieing, you cant gimp snake unless you get him in a really bad position if they know how to recover and DI well and all that. Falco you should be gimping him once a game or else you are going to lose (either gimp him or dont get grabbed xD). To gimp him, running grab him out of side b and then release and edge hog on cue. He dies and there is no possible way for him to survive. GG
Please dont tell falco players about this, and never use it unless you know you are going to get it. He has to have used his double jump.
If he recovers higher just up smash or nair. If he recovers high just like **** him up. If hes double jumping near the ledge, down tilt and proceed to grab his recovery.
If he tries to side b to the ledge edge hog him.


Oo that was more than 1-2 sentences.

well you can have fun being predictable with your recovery idc really.

 

[Metatitan]

Falco =/= Wolf Marik, are u that stupid? Why not say falco is the same as fox while we're at it?

Let's clear up a few things.

1. Marik's arguments are fun to laugh at as well as his logic (wolf is falco...... really marik?)

2. Falco's cg is a lot better than yoshi's and yoshi's is insanely hard to pull off. Normally we try to eliminate human error from matchup ratios but with a 2 frame window on a grab release (they can make the timing for each breakout different to mix you up) I don't see yoshi's cg on him being a significant factor in any way possible.

3. I've seen a lot about people saying "just nair the illusion" but it really isn't as simple as that. A lot of characters can do the same to his illusion but falco can recover at different heights (and the hitstun from his lazer if he's using it to camp you won't give u enough time to buffer a Nair, and if it did he could just bait the nair and get a free hit). So not only would you have to time the move PERFECTLY to beat out illusion, but at the precise height as well. It's not going to happen much, or at all. Your best bet (from what stocky told me) is to grab him out of it.

4. This IS do or die matchup with A LOT more risk in it for yoshi. I don't see that as even if falco doesn't have to work nearly as hard and I certainly see it far more than just a slight disadvantage. Sure burntsocks 2 stocked the best falco, and was later consistently 2-3 stocked afterward, meaning there was some sandbagging going on or matchup inexperience, or most likely a combination of both.

Either way it's just a number you guys put up so put what you want. I think it's probably 30:70 falco because he has to take virtually no risks to easily **** yoshi in this matchup, while yoshi has to take extreme risks just to possibly win.

 

[Delta-cod]

Does anyone know at what percents (if possible) Falco can do that sliding pivot grab thing against us in his CG? If that's not a problem, all you have to do is play towards the inside of the stage more and the CG won't ever place you off the stage for a potential gimp. I've been able to do this against every Falco I've played so far and never had to deal with early deaths.

 

[Deleted member]

Lets get something straight, i thought it was even before i played Larry.
I was hoping i would get him or SK92 in brackets because i knew i could win.

Delta he can do that if he wishes, its very hard to not get cged to the edge because he can just camp you so he basically gets to position you where he wants, so basically you gotta be tricky with your aerial movement so u dont get grabbed and bait openings

 

[PZ]

have you tried tinykicking a laser like if your in front of them and you know their gonna SHDL just tiny kick and the do whatever after words well what im talking about is nair

 

[Depster]

The cg spike can't ever kill us anyway, and falco has less time than we do to do the next grab (even though the input is easier). You can Nair to beat the un-buffered grab. To get around lasers just djc egg lay, nuff said. The SA will let you lay him.

 

[.Marik]

Please be aware I was thinking in a -really- broad sense.

I never said they were clones or identical, they do have similar mechanics though. Recovery, Grab-Release animations, frames to start up-moves, hitboxes, stuff like that.

Mechanics is a different concept than playstyle, please be aware of that.

Sorry for the confusion, but you guys must have a low opinion of me if you think I haven't ****ing grasped that Wolf=/=Falco.

>_>

Aside from that, Metatitan is probably right.

Falco is just so much better and Yoshi doesn't have anything on Falco, while the reverse isn't true.

Falco has a lot more tools and effective options than Yoshi.

Simple as that.

Falco's favour.

 

[.Marik]

Let me expand on my previous point a bit further, so I can ram my logic so far up your bloody a-.

Similar mechanics, let me explain how.

Grab-Release animations are practically the same, Dair's both spike, Bair's both have great range and are reliable killing moves, their Grabs (not DownThrows or BackThrows or UpThrows) but the actual Grabbing animation, and it's startup.

Wolf can't SHDL like Falco, so his options are going to be somewhat neglected when it comes to approaching in that particular manner.

But, they do have similar mechanics programmed into their overall design, although the animations of the particular moves and its effects are what causes differences in matchups and the overall metagame of Brawl. (Hitboxes, priority, range, setups, AT's etc...)

Think more different than Mario and Luigi, Ness and Lucas, but less different than Toon Link and Link. See where I'm coming from? Fox is considerably different in comparision to Falco than Wolf is, although I'm -not- denying even Wolf and Falco are very unique in the specific sense of playstyle and movesets, although they do share broad and general similarities as a result of overall programming.

Both **** Yoshi.

 

[YoshiIslander77z]

i think wolf isnt as hard as falco, when falco doesnt know the match up alot of our tactics work on him. once he knows these tactics he has to tools to counter nd ****.

mario and luigi are somewhat alike even tho luigi has some defining features
ness is nothing like lucas at all (the only thing the same is )
toon link is nothing like link , dont even make the analogy between these characters

i dont get what similarites falco and wolf have. lazers are extremely different, bairs are very different, dairs are very different, grabs and grab game different, jab is different. they have different problems and advantages over yoshi wolf can kill easier falco can rack damge easier and have a better defense and camp game.

i have a LIL expirence with falco so i try just to stay at mid range where its more risky for him to use lasers (ducking helps slightly u still get hit by one laser). dair nair grabs jab bair are his main damage rackers, then dsmash or dair for punishing and usally up smash for the kill, learn to dodge fsmashes or slightly charged one they like mxing that up a lil cause of its range. u should be living a while. recovering against falco mainly out of grab can be difficult just because recovering low is not a good idea ive been baited and got hit with bairs and dairs out of my recovery.

i think the match up goes from even to 35:65 the more exprience of the falco

as u know my opinion is not the complete truth im human make mistakes and dont have as much tourny experience as u pplz.

 

[.Marik]

i think wolf isnt as hard as falco, when falco doesnt know the match up alot of our tactics work on him. once he knows these tactics he has to tools to counter nd ****.

mario and luigi are somewhat alike even tho luigi has some defining features
ness is nothing like lucas at all (the only thing the same is )
toon link is nothing like link , dont even make the analogy between these characters

I never said Toon Link and Link were similar. See Ness and Lucas? How they're similar, but completely different when it comes to more specific and situational things?

That's Wolf and Falco, in a sense. Again, not exactly the same. Similar? Hardly, but it still exists. Mario and Luigi are very similar, but again, both have extremely different tools when it comes down to the raw analyzed data of their movesets.

i dont get what similarites falco and wolf have. lazers are extremely different, bairs are very different, dairs are very different, grabs and grab game different, jab is different. they have different problems and advantages over yoshi wolf can kill easier falco can rack damge easier and have a better defense and camp game.

Dair has a different animation, but they're eerily similar. Lazers have different properties, but they both approach and play in a certain fashion which can be related.

I never said their Jab was similar, same with Grab game. However, the startup frames and range associated with their Grabs are similar.

A very broad analytical comparision, but still existant nonetheless.

Your last point is true, and I'd never try to argue otherwise.

 

[YoshiIslander77z]

Think more different than Mario and Luigi, Ness and Lucas, but less different than Toon Link and Link. See where I'm coming from? Fox is considerably different in comparision to Falco than Wolf is, although I'm -not- denying even Wolf and Falco are very unique in the specific sense of playstyle and movesets, although they do share broad and general similarities as a result of overall programming.

Both **** Yoshi.

so u mean the differences are a lil more like mario and luigis, ness and lucas then say tink and link. thus ur implying that they are somewhat similar

 

[.Marik]

But "LESS" different than Toon Link and Link.

And by less, I really mean a lot, because those two really aren't similar at all.

But yes, sort of like Mario and Luigi, Ness and Lucas.

 

[YoshiIslander77z]

ok i just disagree that ness and lucas are extremely different they have virtually no similarites

 

[Shiri]

Um...

I know you guys are trying to hash out a point, but...

...Falco.

 

[Delta-cod]

I hate to sound like a downer, but...

What does this have to do with anything but the semantics of Marik's post that isn't even relevant to Falco?

Falco's not worse than Wolf, Wolf ***** me harder than Falco.

 

[Depster]

Why are you guys so scared of Falco? His CG isn't easy on us, the cg spike never kills unless you're dumb, the lasers can be PSd and djc egg layed through, he's really light, has poor aerial movement, has a horrible recovery, he has one good kill move in my opinion (usmash since it can be DACUS'd), has poor range on most attacks, and we can cg him to put him offstage. I think he's overrated.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Test question: Can you outcamp him?

Answer: No, never. Yoshi will be forced to approach if he/she wants to deal any damage. Yoshi does NOT do well with approaching Falco cause the CG still works so free 30-40%, plus the damage from lasers. Yoshi has poor defense options in this matchup so getting killed will be easier for Falco. It's all about approach Big Bird and Yoshi can't do that w/o obtaining a form of punishment.

40:60

Edit: I've CG'd Yoshi before. If it doesn't work anymore than I need to see it for myself.