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Yoshi Matchup Thread

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Mmac

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Mmac your too optimistic, honestly.
You've made many contributions to Yoshi, but your....overrating him?
See this wouldn't be a problem as I believe Yoshi might get where your saying. However current belief is "match ups must be decided on how good a character is against another in the current Meta"
Yoshi players haven't fully taken advantage of some of yoshi's techs as some are hard (DR).
Maybe if Yoshi was mastered it would be where your pointing at.
But yoshi isn't mastered, and Yoshi just doesn't come off at the level of play you describe him at yet...keyword yet.
But I haven't even touched the DR yet. Ever. Maybe I am being alittle optimistic, but I am not basing this off of techs that nobody has yet master and implemented into their Game. this is currently based on my views from my current metagame, and from the people I've played against.

Mario
4.5 5.5 has a good way to edgeguard Yoshi actually, which is not cool.. Fludd and cape? Sucks to be us.
Only problem is that Fludd doesn't do ANYTHING against Yoshi. It literary has no effect on Yoshi at all, and doesn't at all hinder his recovery. If anything it HELPS his recovery because it pushes him up. Plus the Cape is pretty easy to avoid anyways, although it is something to look out for.
 

Gindler

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I still think falco is 3:7, i played a decent at best falco recently and nearly got 2 stocked. All my usual approaches were destroyed, eggs near useless against a grounded falco, lasers and reflector are too annoying. then again I don't have very much falco experience and he's a pretty good character....

Snake, yeah 4:6. Even before I knew about the death grab and the "CG" i did pretty well against snakes and he was my 2nd fav to fight next to MK (2 most used characters so ALOT of experience obviously). Recovering high with snake is kinda a problem against yoshi too with that Kick A second jump (most of my rising fair spike kills were against snakes). His 2 good tilts keep this from being even though, ftilt is annoying and an extremely easy 20 percent "combo". At around 115% I hate having to egg camp do to the Utilt of death but hey, tack on an extra 30-40 before taking it isn't too bad. Also eggs detonating nades is the best =D

Mario 4:6, i'd rather fight a snake than a mario anyday. They can edgeguard quite well with the cape and a good mario will bait an airdodge with Nair then cape you/ FLUDD you, his aerials are all pretty good too (only bad one is Fair due to speed). he's really just an annoyance at most I'd think.

G&W I think is too overrated in this matchup. A key happy G dub are my favorite since if spaced correctly an Uair will go through it and kill him in the mid 80s usually (i think I've gotten the spacing down quite well now). Other than that the turtle, ALL of his smashes and most of his aerials are annoying so i'd say 3.5:6.5. I still don't have that much trouble with him, then again I seem to play up against good opponents and play down against bad ones, no clue why.
 

Mmac

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I still don't understand how you guys are getting gimped by Fludd. It does NOTHING against Yoshi!!!

Unless Cyan Yoshi has Water Immunity or something....
 

Mmac

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Cape the double jump, FLUDD the trip back to the ledge.
It doesn't effect momentum at all, and it pushes you upwards.... Even if you reverse the Double Jump, the Fludd doesn't hurt you at all. If anything it helps you because it pushes you upwards
 
D

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Ok, D3 is even. You can camp the whole time, space lots of bairs, dont get hit by utilt or get gimped. Ive played DSFs D3 in tourny and gotten him to 130 on last stock. I dont think experience should change the matchup, but you CAN just camp him and run away the whole time, it is a proven stratigy =P (not really run the whole time lol, just throw eggs, weaken his shield with spaced bairs, then go combo).

No worse than 4.5, id say even.

Mk, prolly 4.5-5.5.
 

Mmac

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Twas Zeon =P

I got him to 130 last stock in the second game, but only because of a couple lucky grabs. The guy's INTENSE lol
Zeon is insane with his Ganondorf, but if you just stay safe and don't rush in, you should be able to deal with him no problem.

Here are the thing's I'm going to change for next update.

MetaKnight - To 4.5
Dedede - To 5
DK - to 4.5
Luigi - to 5

Matchups to look into.

Falco - I've contacted the owner of the Falco Matchup Board. Hopefully they'll discuss us soon and we can get a more accurate update.
Zelda - Some people are telling me it's actually a neutralish matchup....
Charizard - Advantage?

And I am confused on the people (And by people, I mean Gindler) debating about Snake. You said that he did reasonably well against him before those techs..... Yet the matchup was 4:6 before.... unless you mean it's our advantage....

And I'm not really seeing any viable proof that Mario overtakes Yoshi....

Anyone else we think we should look into besides Falco?
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: Wow, so many matchups going on at the same time.

I haven't fought any real Falcos, but my buddy was playing me earlier today and the forward air from the ledge is too boss against Falco. I don't know if this chaingrab actually works or not, but there are plenty of options on release, it seems, regardless. I guess Falco's a good character, but it seems like all he can do is chaingrab, laser, run, and poke. Mind you, all of his ways of doing this are good--it just seems silly to me. Judging from the way my buddy played me earlier today, Falco can stop lots of different things. Neutral air pretty much beats every aerial option you have and forward tilt and forward smash stop the ground game pretty hard. What may be happening here is that people are not spamming enough dodges in the air and may be using too many on the ground, where it's infinitely more dangerous to dodge.

Actually, the more and more I think about this, Falco's just really annoying. It's just Side+B, lasers, forward tilts, and reflector. On the flipside, all his stage gimmicks go out the window when he's not touching the ground, so I wouldn't call this match totally in Falco's favor. I'll decline offering a ratio since I haven't fought any real Falcos yet, though. Seems everybody else has more actual experience against them.

For whoever isn't calling Mario at least 6.5 in Mario's favor, please get wrecked. <3 Mario beats the stuffing out of Yoshi. At the tournament I went to last weekend, a buddy of mine entered low tier and took my advice and picked Mario when about two or three kids tried to go Yoshi on him. He took my advice from ages ago and whooped the mess out of them; that matchup is beyond annoying, LOL!
 

Mmac

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Burntsocks didn't seem like he could escape the Chaingrab when he used Falco against me. Although he messed me up when I ****ed up that one spike


Great, more Mario > Yoshi debates.... Although I REALLY doubt it 6.5

Edit: New Chartz!



Also I changed the meaning to the stars to "Debatable", which I misspelled ;__ ;
 
D

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Lol yes. Amd to my defense, i dont play falco, but no johns.

Also, i strongly disagree with shiri lol. But thats ok.

Lucario: Ok, so ive gotten a ton of more lucario experience, with a few very good lucarios. Its hard to give it a ratio because it really depends if you can get the kill. 2nd stock, if they airdodge into your fsmash or soemthing, its in your favor. If you cant get the kill until later, you are gonna lose, cuz thats how lucario rolls. Its so confusing, but it seems to be even, from my experiences. Lots of eggs when farish away, foxtrot away from his approaches usually cuz you cant stop them and they are too freakin good, Full hop bair to nair is pretty useful. but watch for utilt.

Cant put a ratio, but id say no worse than 4:6.
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: May I ask what you disagree with? Mario? Falco?

If it's about Falco, like I said, I have very little experience against him.
 

Mmac

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I think we're actually close to a final... Shiri, Burnt, what do you think of the following characters?

Snake
G&W
Lucario
Zelda
Luigi
Charizard
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: I have really really like...******** views of every single one of those matchups except Charizard.

I'll expound on Charizard if you'd like me to, but I'm pretty sure everyone will disagree 10/10 times on everything I say about all of those matchups.
 

Matador

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Mario vs Yoshi is pretty even.

It's kinda difficult to edgeguard Yoshi or even approach him when he spaces right. Other than that, we trade off pros and cons. Abuse your Bair, Tilts, pivotgrabs and jabs, and Mario won't have an easy time approaching. Mario CAN gimp Yoshi, but not consistently enough for it to become an advantage or disadvantage for either side. Just be smart with your DJAD and you'll recover fine more often than not. So yeah, pretty evenish.

I am kinda surprised that some of you guys were ready to give Mario the adv for once, especially 65:35. Now I know what Marth feels like :chuckle:
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: I really beg to differ.

To be frank, I'm not sure why everyone on both sides is concerned with Yoshi getting edgeguarded. It's never been a factor in this matchup (or most of Yoshi's matchups) in any Smash game so far (this is fact). The meat of this matchup happens onstage. There's not a single move Mario has besides maybe down tilt that he cannot use to reckless abandon without fear of punishment. His tilts are so weak, they are literally too good because Yoshi cannot get out of tilt spam at even mediocre percentages. Short hop fireball at a character and a half length away is pretty much all any Mario needs to shut Yoshi down.

Stop Mario from approaching? The only tools we really have that stop Mario approaches are up tilts, maybe pivot grabs, and eggs. Upsmash would be really good against Mario approaches if he weren't so low to the ground when he comes at you. Cape to forward smash actually works for Mario sometimes in this matchup if he picks the right move to try it on.His back and up airs straight up cheat in this matchup, no lie. Mario perfectly hits Yoshi's one blind spot, and does it to perfection.

That being said, Yoshi beats Mario offstage for no real reason; it's just silly. We have edgeguarding pretty easy and dash grabs give Yoshi plenty of slide to get to the edge much faster. Mario has approximately zero edgeguarding options on Yoshi--if he gimps in this matchup, Yoshi screwed up something serious.

Yoshi's other one-ups over Mario are infinitely longer lifespan, aerial range advantage, and ground power. If Yoshi connects with a forward smash (good luck) at any reasonable percentage, Mario might as well just jump to the blastzones and call it a stock. Yoshi also has enough airspeed to combine with his range to really zip around Mario in the air. Mario's only real safe aerial in aerial combat, I think, are neutral air and up air. When Mario is airborne and Yoshi is grounded, that's a different story, but when they're both in the air, I think these are Mario's only saving graces.

I hope I'm not making the matchup seem like Link in how lopsided it is, but you basically have to outlive Mario until he makes a blatant mistake and capitalize on it. If Mario really wanted to, he could stand in place all match just using cape, spotdodge, and A button moves and do copious amounts of damage. Of course, no Mario is going to do that and what's good is that a good deal of Mario's moves are often very unsafe to use in many situations, so he'll be operating on a risk/reward system with how he's fighting Yoshi. You just have to force or bait the risk and not give him the reward, as cheesy as that sounds.

I will go for 6.5:3.5 Mario, but am willing to settle for 6:4 Mario. Those are my feelings on the matchup.
 

Matador

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Kinda lost me there Shiri :laugh:

From what I understand, however, I mostly agree. The only things I'm a bit shaky on are:

Mario can't really lock Yoshi in tilts since Dtilt sucks, Utilt can be Nair'd out of by Yoshi, and our Ftilt doesn't have that much range/priority IIRC. Definitely not THAT big of a deal vs Yoshi.

Edgeguarding has to be factored in either way since it's the first time Mario has ever been capable of gimping Yoshi and vice versa. Still, this doesn't really bend the outcome in either party's favor. Just don't overlook the fact that Mario CAN gimp Yoshi with a cape during your DJ, sending your Godly airspeed in the wrong direction and keeping it there with Fludd. Being wary of this is the best way to avoid it consistently.

Eggs have never really been that much of a problem for me. It's not too fast or rapidly thrown to cape consistently, so they aren't that big of a deal unless the Yoshi is close enough to punish cape lag. Pivot grabs definitely hurt approach options and a well spaced Bair is difficult to get around for Mario. Yoshi's tilts also have pretty decent range and priority, so they can be hard to get around as well. Same with his jabs. It's not as big of a problem vs Yoshi as it would be vs Marth or DDD, but still.

Yoshi's easiest kills will be from Uair since it outprioritizes everything we've got when he's below. Our only defense against it is airdodging. Anticipate it, and you've taken a stock.

Still not enough for 65:35 or even 60:40 imo. Yoshi's defensive game works too well, and he can rack up damage pretty quickly if needed.
 
D

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I think we're actually close to a final... Shiri, Burnt, what do you think of the following characters?

Snake
Very annoying. Eggs can only blow up grenades if you are throwing at the same intervals, a smart snake who knows the matchup. will just stop throwin for a sec. Dtilt is amazing set up for spikes here, i love it. Dair his shield and DI behind him, you wont blow up a nade, and sometimes itll even blow up on him. Grab mortar slides. Shield tilts, its all you can do really. I cant do the chaingrab, so im not factoring that. 4-6, maybe 4.5-5.5.
G&W
******** priority, i dunno. Luckily, no good G&Ws where i live, which is nice, but honestly, i dont think a good G&W can be beaten by an equally skilled yoshi, too hard
Lucario
See above post 4.5-5.5
Zelda
No zelda's where i live, i dont wanna give online experience =/
Luigi
Same as above, but id say 5-5, yoshi can camp and pivot grab down b and combo the poop outta him, but luigi can do some nasty stuff as well.
Charizard
5-5 at worst, yoshi luvs his camping haha.
Ok uhh comments in red. Sorry if i said camp for every one of them, its kinda what i do unless im against....falco and pit.
 

Mmac

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New Update!



A few changes (Although I just realized Luigi changed back to 5.5, didn't mean that. Stupid AutoSave >_<). I think we are REALLY close to a final version. Right now I want to focus mostly on Lucario and Zelda, as they are the most Debatable next to Falco. Maybe some ROB Debate too. Is he Neutral?

I'm saving Falco and possibly Snake for a later date, when they discuss us.....
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: I think R.O.B. is incredibly neutral in the sense that the match can really go either way at any time.

I would nod my head to a perfect 5:5 split.
 

Yikarur

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I disagree that we have the same disadvantage against Lucario as Marth.
To play against Marth are much easier for me that Lucario.
Lucarios Range are always a big problem for Yoshi to get the KO :/

and ROBs problem is the size.makes it an easier target for Yoshis bair,dair etc.

My opinion disagrees with many more but I need to think about it because of less experience against some chars.

but nice chart :D

Edit:
one question

I can't see my signature oO
why? lol
 

ROOOOY!

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Not to seem obnoxious or anything, but why is Sonic considered an advantage, out of curiosity?
I always saw it as neutral myself.
 

PKNintendo

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New Update!



A few changes (Although I just realized Luigi changed back to 5.5, didn't mean that. Stupid AutoSave >_<). I think we are REALLY close to a final version. Right now I want to focus mostly on Lucario and Zelda, as they are the most Debatable next to Falco. Maybe some ROB Debate too. Is he Neutral?

I'm saving Falco and possibly Snake for a later date, when they discuss us.....
Odd color choice. But yeah. Pretty sound.
 
D

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Not to seem obnoxious or anything, but why is Sonic considered an advantage, out of curiosity?
I always saw it as neutral myself.
Well ive only played one sonic in tournament, but what ive seen is: Sonic is hard to grab, but hes going to get grabbed, a running grab can stop a spin dash in its track, and it often catches them before they jump. Yoshi can then chain grab sonic.
Sonic CANNOT KILL. At all. Honestly, this is the big thing. I was playing a sonic, we were both at 100+ percent, i kill him, he cant kill me till hes at 80+ percent on his next stock. Yoshi will only get killed if he messes up, and yoshi is good at playing safe. This is the biggest reason imo why its in yoshis favor.

Sonic needs a faster kill move.

Also, can marth be 4:6, seems more reasonable, its not that bad.
Bowser should be closer to even, i played a really good bowser, its not as one sided as i thot.
Prolly 5.5-4.5. Bowser can easily get past spam and jab you with SHAD, his up b out of shield is beast, and he has annoying grab release stuff.

Why is falco our advantage????

Falcon for 5-5.
 

ChronoPenguin

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New Update!



A few changes (Although I just realized Luigi changed back to 5.5, didn't mean that. Stupid AutoSave >_<). I think we are REALLY close to a final version. Right now I want to focus mostly on Lucario and Zelda, as they are the most Debatable next to Falco. Maybe some ROB Debate too. Is he Neutral?

I'm saving Falco and possibly Snake for a later date, when they discuss us.....
Falco is not an advantage this is my biggest Grip with you right now Mmac.

Falco is neutral AT BEST, theres too much flaky crap going on there for it to be yoshi's advantage.

Burnt if you have a problem with Marth take it to the Marth boards currently , they will discuss the matchup with you.
 

Mmac

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Well ive only played one sonic in tournament, but what ive seen is: Sonic is hard to grab, but hes going to get grabbed, a running grab can stop a spin dash in its track, and it often catches them before they jump. Yoshi can then chain grab sonic.
Sonic CANNOT KILL. At all. Honestly, this is the big thing. I was playing a sonic, we were both at 100+ percent, i kill him, he cant kill me till hes at 80+ percent on his next stock. Yoshi will only get killed if he messes up, and yoshi is good at playing safe. This is the biggest reason imo why its in yoshis favor.

Sonic needs a faster kill move.
What he said, From the Sonic's I played, I always live up to the 150's, 180's, sometimes as high as 230! As long as Yoshi can effectively dodge the Bair/Dsmash, then Yoshi is going to live for a long time and there's really nothing you can do about it. Sonic can't gimp Yoshi well either, which only reduces his chance of getting early kills.

Also, can marth be 4:6, seems more reasonable, its not that bad.
We tried changing it, but failed. You can try convincing the Marth's, but until they do, I can't really change it to 4:6

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196611

Bowser should be closer to even, i played a really good bowser, its not as one sided as i thot.

Prolly 5.5-4.5. Bowser can easily get past spam and jab you with SHAD, his up b out of shield is beast, and he has annoying grab release stuff.
It sounds like that could be easily punish though. Then again I'm not really the spamming campy type...
His UpB is a pain yes, I admit to that
His grab release is annoying, but we're the ONLY character not effected by it! We can escape every option easily.

Maybe it's your playstyle that is making him hard. I generally be aggressive with Bowser, and I have next to no problems with him.

Why is falco our advantage????
Yeah Yeah Yeah, waiting on Falco's opinion.


Falcon for 5-5.
I'm still indifferent about this. How can Falcon do well against us and only us? I aware of what he is capable of doing, but why can't he use it on the other characters? What makes him so special against us that he can't do to anyone else in the Low Tier or even Mid Tier?

:yoshi: I think R.O.B. is incredibly neutral in the sense that the match can really go either way at any time.

I would nod my head to a perfect 5:5 split.
and ROBs problem is the size.makes it an easier target for Yoshis bair,dair etc.
So we have 2 Neutrals on ROB so far...

I disagree that we have the same disadvantage against Lucario as Marth.
To play against Marth are much easier for me that Lucario.
Lucarios Range are always a big problem for Yoshi to get the KO :/
People are generally telling me that Lucario isn't that hard. If anything he should be easier according to most people!
 
D

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Hes not, falcon can do decently against a quite a few other characters. Im not here to argue about other characters tho, but honestly, there are very few GOOD tournaments falcons, I had the ability to play one, i know what falcon can do(which honestly, i dont completly think that you do, no offense), i know what yoshi can do, i think it is an even matchup. I am not gonna restate my opinions, go read them earlier in the thread if you want to know why it is even.

For bowser:
How can you be agressive, he can up b out of shield in the MIDDLE of your bair. Bowser has one of the best defensive games, with ftilts, jabs, and up b. Not sure about grab releases, im pretty sure he can jab you out of it. He also is the hardest character to kill in the game, which is bad for yoshi.
Being agressive really isnt smart against bowser, when he can pretty much punish anything with an up b OOS.

For marth: Meh, i cant beat them i dont think. W/e. My opinion from experiences against players that are my skill level or better is 4-6. Foop.

Rob is 4-6 imo. Camping is too lame
 

Mmac

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Hes not, falcon can do decently against a quite a few other characters. Im not here to argue about other characters tho, but honestly, there are very few GOOD tournaments falcons, I had the ability to play one, i know what falcon can do(which honestly, i dont completly think that you do, no offense), i know what yoshi can do, i think it is an even matchup. I am not gonna restate my opinions, go read them earlier in the thread if you want to know why it is even.
I still don't know. Do you have a video of him?

For bowser:
How can you be agressive, he can up b out of shield in the MIDDLE of your bair. Bowser has one of the best defensive games, with ftilts, jabs, and up b. Not sure about grab releases, im pretty sure he can jab you out of it. He also is the hardest character to kill in the game, which is bad for yoshi.
Being agressive really isnt smart against bowser, when he can pretty much punish anything with an up b OOS.
His defencive game is good, but once his shield is damaged, he's pretty much dead. One Dair and he's pretty much combo bait for the next 10 seconds. He's really not that hard to get into at all.

Rob is 4-6 imo. Camping is too lame
Indeed....
 
D

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No video, he left SD to taiwan like 2 monthes ago.

How is he not hard to get into? Like i said, jabs, ftilt and up b. Im not completely sure, but i recall him being able to up b out of dair on shield too. Ill test tho later.


His ftilt beats all of your aerials, and ground moves for that matter. His retreating fair is good too.
 

Depster

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Bowser isn't THAT heavy. I sent a replay to Bigman with me KOing a bowser with Fsmash from opposite side of yoshi's Island and it KOed him at about 115. I can't remember the charge but I angled Fsmash down and it was basically a semi spike from across the stage =/
 

Kiwikomix

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Camping really needs to be stressed in EVERY matchup. That's what not many people seem to realize here, that even if something is "cheap" or "unfair", if it helps someone win, they WILL do it. The worst part is that some people just randomly seem to decide who camps and who doesn't (eg, people assume Snake can camp, but don't think Link can). Everyone will if they have the materials for it. That means Falco and ROB will camp, and they will camp often, and there's not really much you can do about it. I will admit it's easier in ROB's case since he can be grabbed, but the fact that people will abuse their advantages is just something you have to understand.
 
D

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Camping really needs to be stressed in EVERY matchup. That's what not many people seem to realize here, that even if something is "cheap" or "unfair", if it helps someone win, they WILL do it. The worst part is that some people just randomly seem to decide who camps and who doesn't (eg, people assume Snake can camp, but don't think Link can). Everyone will if they have the materials for it. That means Falco and ROB will camp, and they will camp often, and there's not really much you can do about it. I will admit it's easier in ROB's case since he can be grabbed, but the fact that people will abuse their advantages is just something you have to understand.
This.

Rob cant be grabbed while hes shooting lasers or gyros.
 

Mmac

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Never mind, MK is 4:6.
I haven't seen anything about you from MetaKnight though.

Plus both parties have agreed already

I'll look into the Bowser Matchup even more, by hunting down Bowsers. I'll change Bowser to 6 for now, I'll change Falco to Undecided, and I really want discussion on Zelda
 
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