Yoshi Matchup Thread

[Deleted member]

Scatty ur very silly.

Orion you are also very silly. As a matter of fact, falcon does have combo power, does have ways to get past projectiles, does have an approach, has better kill options than yoshi with the exception of yoshis uair, has a faster close range game, can easily pressure yoshi, has a low% cg on yoshi...

I dont care if you like playing falcon or not, that doesnt apply to the matchup.

Please tell me how yoshis kill moves are better. Really, id like to know.

 

[Ryusuta]

Scatty ur very silly.

Orion you are also very silly. As a matter of fact, falcon does have combo power,

Do you have any concept of hitstun at all? Or the fact that it's practically non-existent in Brawl? Real combos are incredibly rare in this game, and Falcon isn't one of the exceptions.

does have ways to get past projectiles, does have an approach,

*Sits down*

Okay, you're on one side of Final Destination and I'm on the other. Name a safe approach for Falcon. A running attack? A running fake-out? A Falcon Kick? An air dodge? Give me a break. Falcon has NO approach, period.

has better kill options than yoshi with the exception of yoshis uair,

How do you figure we eliminate up air from the conversation? Do you think the Yoshi player will just not use it if you ask him nicely?

Let's look at Falcon's kill moves for a second.

-ALL of Falcon's kill moves suffer from terrible start-up and/or are severely punishable.
-Forward air has about a one-pixel sweet spot.
-Up air is his safest kill move and has the least knockback.
-Falcon Punch. Do I even have to say what's wrong with this?
-Forward smash has a huge wind-up and recovery. Worse yet, Ganon's comes out at the EXACT same speed and has much better knockback, power, and priority, just to add insult to injury.
-Down smash, same problem. You're pretty much counting on your opponent to be stupid.

has a faster close range game,

No.

can easily pressure yoshi,

With what? What are you going to pressure me with that won't be stopped by my just repeatedly tapping the A button, let alone fighting back or pivot-grabbing you?

has a low% cg on yoshi...

If this is indeed true and inescapable, that's one on me.

I dont care if you like playing falcon or not, that doesnt apply to the matchup.

I never said it did.

Please tell me how yoshis kill moves are better. Really, id like to know.

Yoshi refreshes all of his moves EXTREMELY quickly, for one. Every time you bite down on someone during a CG, and every individual time you press the A button and to Yoshi's neutral A combo, that counts as an individual move and therefore restores power to other moves. Basically, if you're not fighting a Yoshi that spams smashes like an idiot, every kill move you're going to be hit with will be just about fresh.

Falcon's recovery is pathetic. It's not the worst recovery in the game, but he's also very easily gimped by Yoshi.

Falcon can't fight below him worth a crap when he's in the air. You're just begging for an up smash or up air if you try. And again, if Yoshi misses, Falcon doesn't have jack to punish with, and the power will be recovered in a matter of seconds. That limits you to the ground, which is CG territory.

I could picture a Yoshi/Falcon match to become a high-damage game, since both of them leave something to be desired in the knockback department. But when you get right down to it, Falcon has NOTHING on Yoshi (or most other characters, for that matter).

 

[Deleted member]

O boy this will be fun =D

Do you have any concept of hitstun at all? Or the fact that it's practically non-existent in Brawl? Real combos are incredibly rare in this game, and Falcon isn't one of the exceptions.
Lets try this: Falling up air to jab to jab( number 2) to down tilt. That is a combo. Or Falling up air to jab to grab for that matter. Up air also is fast enough to hit you before you can airdodge after your first one, so even tho its technically not a combo, you cant really not get hit.




Okay, you're on one side of Final Destination and I'm on the other. Name a safe approach for Falcon. A running attack? A running fake-out? A Falcon Kick? An air dodge? Give me a break. Falcon has NO approach, period.

Im pretty sure falcon can run up and powershield. Is that not a viable approach? You dont even need to power shield falcon can run up and shield it.

How do you figure we eliminate up air from the conversation? Do you think the Yoshi player will just not use it if you ask him nicely?
THats not what i meant, i meant falcons kill moves are better with the exception of up air.
Let's look at Falcon's kill moves for a second.

-ALL of Falcon's kill moves suffer from terrible start-up and/or are severely punishable.
-Forward air has about a one-pixel sweet spot.
-Up air is his safest kill move and has the least knockback.
-Falcon Punch. Do I even have to say what's wrong with this?
-Forward smash has a huge wind-up and recovery. Worse yet, Ganon's comes out at the EXACT same speed and has much better knockback, power, and priority, just to add insult to injury.
-Down smash, same problem. You're pretty much counting on your opponent to be stupid.
Down air to foward air is a true combo. Its also a kill move. Pretty cool mirite? Up air only kills if hes far off stage edgeguarding. Its good for knockin you out there tho. Foward smash has pull back like yoshis, and can punish in a similar fashion. Lets not compare to ganons, we know his is good. Downsmash tends to hit good players, the startup is actually very good for baitiing spotdodges.


With what? What are you going to pressure me with that won't be stopped by my just repeatedly tapping the A button, let alone fighting back or pivot-grabbing you?

Falcon is faster, can punish a pivot grab, has a rediculous jab that leads to grabs which leads to follow ups or chaingrabs. Yoshi has the worst shield in the game, falcon has a very good shield pressure game. If you shield you are probably in trouble, if you roll away you get side bd.

If this is indeed true and inescapable, that's one on me.


it is indeed inescapable.



Yoshi refreshes all of his moves EXTREMELY quickly, for one. Every time you bite down on someone during a CG, and every individual time you press the A button and to Yoshi's neutral A combo, that counts as an individual move and therefore restores power to other moves. Basically, if you're not fighting a Yoshi that spams smashes like an idiot, every kill move you're going to be hit with will be just about fresh.

Falcon's recovery is pathetic. It's not the worst recovery in the game, but he's also very easily gimped by Yoshi.

Falcon can't fight below him worth a crap when he's in the air. You're just begging for an up smash or up air if you try. And again, if Yoshi misses, Falcon doesn't have jack to punish with, and the power will be recovered in a matter of seconds. That limits you to the ground, which is CG territory.

I could picture a Yoshi/Falcon match to become a high-damage game, since both of them leave something to be desired in the knockback department. But when you get right down to it, Falcon has NOTHING on Yoshi (or most other characters, for that matter).

Lol, why would falcon use his kill moves to not kill? Both of their kill moves should be pretty fresh, except for yoshis usmash depending on how much you use it. Falcon does 10x better when yoshi is above him than yoshi when falcon is above him, falcons up air is much better in this situation. Falcon shouldnt be getting grabbed often, he has the tools to not get grabbed. Falcon is underrated. Go look back 40 pages or so for my previous falcon stuff.

 

[Mmac]

Sorry to interrupt, but Matchup Chart 1.4 is up!

Changes:
-Wario to 6.5
-Zelda to 4.5
-Jigglypuff to 6.5
-Ganondorf to 7

 

[Ryusuta]

This is utterly ridiculous.

Lets try this: Falling up air to jab to jab( number 2) to down tilt. That is a combo. Or Falling up air to jab to grab for that matter. Up air also is fast enough to hit you before you can airdodge after your first one, so even tho its technically not a combo, you cant really not get hit.

First of all, it's kind of laughable to say "You can't really not get hit." Second, a poke into a throw isn't a combo. It's NEVER been a combo, and it's a strategy that's been used since Street Fighter 2. That's what's known as a "tick throw."

Im pretty sure falcon can run up and powershield. Is that not a viable approach? You dont even need to power shield falcon can run up and shield it.

Run up and powershield right into a pivot grab. GREAT approach.

Down air to foward air is a true combo. Its also a kill move. Pretty cool mirite?

Good luck landing that consistently on people, let alone sweet-spotting it.

Up air only kills if hes far off stage edgeguarding. Its good for knockin you out there tho.

Not really.

Foward smash has pull back like yoshis, and can punish in a similar fashion. Lets not compare to ganons, we know his is good.

No, it's not. That's sort of the point.

Downsmash tends to hit good players, the startup is actually very good for baitiing spotdodges.

So, assuming your opponent sits there spot-dodging all the time, you could hit this, I guess. That is certainly true.

Falcon is faster,

Not even CLOSE. Compare Yoshi's tilts with Falcon's. It's not even in the slightest remote AREA of the POSSIBILITY of a contest. Falcon's only quicker in his jab, which is going to get outranged and out-prioritized anyway. Unless you're talking about running speed, in which case, big whoop.

can punish a pivot grab,

With what? Unless he's already attacking when the pivot grab starts, he's not going to punish jack. By the time any punish move comes out, Yoshi's already finished with the move. The only moves quick enough to punish on reaction don't have enough range to hit him safely.

has a rediculous jab that leads to grabs which leads to follow ups or chaingrabs.

Hardly a lethal combination.

Yoshi has the worst shield in the game, falcon has a very good shield pressure game. If you shield you are probably in trouble, if you roll away you get side bd.

Good point. Of course, you neglected to mention that any Yoshi worth ANYTHING probably isn't going to be using his shield much in this fight as it is.

Lol, why would falcon use his kill moves to not kill?

What else does he have? A jab into a throw? His back and up airs? Please.

Both of their kill moves should be pretty fresh, except for yoshis usmash depending on how much you use it.

How do you figure Yoshi's going to be using up smash a lot?

Falcon does 10x better when yoshi is above him than yoshi when falcon is above him, falcons up air is much better in this situation.

I actually did come close to laughing out loud at this. I really did. You must think that Falcon's up air (which qualifies as "halfway decent") is God's gift to Smashers. Let's look at this for a moment.

I have you up in the air above me. I throw an Egg. You dodge, and I hit you as you get out of the dodge.

I'm above you and you come charging at me with an up air. I dodge, and you proceed to punish me with... what, exactly?

Falcon shouldnt be getting grabbed often, he has the tools to not get grabbed. Falcon is underrated.

He has precisely NO tools to deal with ANY situation, if you want to get right down to it. Falcon is complete and total garbage, and you've done absolutely NOTHING to convince me otherwise yet.

Go look back 40 pages or so for my previous falcon stuff.

No. I'm not going to fight your battles for you.

 

[Deleted member]

Ok fine you win. 9:1 yoshi.

I dont have to debate with you, and im not goin to. Take of it what you will, if you want to see my opinions go look at the huge paragraphs i posted a while ago. im not going to repost it.

I will say i disagree with what you have said, and that when approaching, you doont run next to them to get grabbed. Falcons up air is not gods gift to smashers, its a good move that is very fast and is better than yoshis for keeping people in the air. Good night.

Maybe ill continue in the mornin if im up for it =/

 

[MrEh]

Any one of you guys manly enough to discuss the Bowser matchup with me?

You have to admit a Yoshi and Bowser fight is usually pretty unique.

 

[Bwett]

Orion, you're becoming quite hostile with the way you are presenting your argument. There is no sense in mocking burntsocks just because he believes the matchup is different than what you believe. Furthermore, I would take a step back and realize that Burntsocks probably has more experience against Captain Falcon in California than any one of us can come close to matching, ESPECIALLY in a tournament setting. Personally, I side with him in this matter. Your arguments seem rather flawed and his come from experience playing against Falcons.

Come up with better counter arguments and present them in a decent manner, but I assure you that Burntsocks knows what he's talking about.

 

[Ryusuta]

Edit: On second thought, maybe I was being a little crass.

 

[Bwett]

I'm not asking you to play Mr. Nice. There is a difference between being nice and showing respect. When there is a lack of respect on these boards, then it concerns me.

Furthermore, these boards are all about a consensus among Yoshi mains and others along the way. If you don't debate to get people to agree with you, then you contribute nothing to the discussion. Not only that, but what you are doing is not a debate; it's a bashing.

How can you make a point with no experience to offer? I don't care how much theory you have behind your ideas. It's all about what happens in the game. If you have no experience to offer for this match-up, then you shouldn't be talking whatsoever, let alone making such comments that can be hurtful to our community. Don't claim bull**** when you have no idea what you are talking about.

So get off your high horse and participate in this discussion with some kind of dignity unless you want to lose any kind of credibility with your words.

 

[Ryusuta]

First of all, I use Yoshi competitively and I do very well with him, thank you very much. And even if that WEREN'T the case, you saying that I don't means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

You might be aware of a little Latin phrase known as argumentum ad hominem, or "argument against the man." What it means (because your arguments have demonstrated a painful lack in understanding of this concept) is that a valid argument is in NO way invalidated if the source of that argument is maligned. You can claim that I don't have tournament experience - something completely false if you'd ask some of the Smash Directors here instead of jumping to your own conclusions - but that doesn't do ANYTHING to refute the claims I made. 2 + 2 still equals 4 regardless of who says it does.

And NO, I'm not arguing for a huge advantage over Falcon. I think it's a perfect 6:4, which is - if you hadn't noticed - what the consensus already is.

You also misunderstood what I said earlier about not arguing to make people agree with me. What I mean by that is that I'm not arguing just so people will say "0rion's right, listen to him." I'm not trying to pad my ego, in other words. Do I want people to agree with me? Certainly. But I don't need someone to validate my perspective on the issues to make me feel better.

Falcon is actually quite a popular character where I am (not one of the biggest, but he sees his share of usage). And as such, I've played some very good ones. Maybe I just did well against them. Maybe they secretly sucked, even though they were doing the EXACT same things talked about here (with the exception of his chain grab, which I already admitted not knowing about).

Or maybe, just MAYBE, the Falcons BS has played against just had his number. I seem to recall a certain Meta Knight player talking about beating your Yoshi 8-2, Bwett.

But that's neither here nor there. The point is that if we're going to talk about the match, let's talk about it. Not me. Not you. Not BS. None of us are beginners here, and no one's perspective has more weight than anyone else. The fact is that I might never reach a consensus with BS (or you, for that matter) regarding this match-up, and that's fine, too. But we can't know one way or another if we don't talk about the actual issue at hand.

If you think that I'm making a mistake about the match-up, tell me what you think that mistake is and we'll talk about it. Otherwise, you're wasting my time and everyone else's with this garbage about how belligerent I'm being. Of COURSE I'm being belligerent! You're both trying to treat me like some random scrub that's talking a bunch of nonsense and doesn't bear giving the time of day to, and you have since we started this discussion.

You'll find that I'm normally one of the nicest people on Smashboards, and I've offered a LOT to the community. So if you're going to act like I'm some village idiot for my completely rational skepticism of a claim that's bold to say the least, of COURSE I'm going to get upset about it.

 

[bigman40]

Ok. How about everyone go chill out for a little while? Respect is the utmost importance here, and losing that makes the Yoshi boards, as a community, look bad. Here's something I wanna know. If the general consensus agrees that Falcon is 6:4 (Yoshi adv.), then why are we arguing this over w/o any type of argument from the Falcon boards themselves?

I've played with my friend (decent falcon player), and I have general thoughts about him.

@Stocky: You should know that Falcon doesn't have a safe approach. Running up and powershield will only get him soo far. Plus, what's keeping a Yoshi from changing their game to bait something like that?

@Orion: You were getting a little harsh in the argument, that I can't deny. Theory can get so far.

No one, absolutely NO ONE should be making assumptions when they don't have the information to back them up. It's outlandish to make bold statements, and belittle someone at the same time. If anyone has to get negative about things, keep it to yourself. We don't want to become that "just another board at SWF" BS when they barely give much respect around here after the Melee vs Brawl debate, and now, the Meta-ban debate.

At this point, we should be focusing on the matchups that we can't get a solid ratio on (Lucario, Link, Falco, Zelda, and maybe some more), and after that, we should either start trying to get agreements on the matchups from the other boards, or begin working on general strats/tips when going against those opponents. Ironically, Mmac started the stage counter picking discussion, and that stopped quickly (I know I haven't added my thoughts to it yet, but stage picking isn't really my thing).

We need to stop talking about something that's generally agreed on, and move on with something more important. Besides, what are the chances you're gonna even MEET a Falcon that's up at the level you state (Stocky, he doesn't count anymore cause he left)?

And now, cause I suck at outros, I'll just randomly quote a person.

"Coming together is a beginning. Keeping together is progress. Working together is success. - Henry Ford"

 

[Kiwikomix]

LOL
Dramatic thread is dramatic.

 

[Deleted member]

Who cares who has more experience. I would think i do, but alas, it doesnt matter. Lets debate shall we?

This is utterly ridiculous.

I think so too...

First of all, it's kind of laughable to say "You can't really not get hit." Second, a poke into a throw isn't a combo. It's NEVER been a combo, and it's a strategy that's been used since Street Fighter 2. That's what's known as a "tick throw."

Ok i dont care what you define as a combo, falcon can do lots of things out of his falling up air, and can follow up out of his throws, not "combo"

Run up and powershield right into a pivot grab. GREAT approach.

Its to get past the eggs, he doesnt have to approach either, he can just powershield every single egg. Not like anybody is gay enough to do this(nobody who plays falcon is gonna be that gay =P). Falcon can punish eggs with falcon kick from a medium-close distance, and can full hop fast fall his up air or nair, or just short hop airdodge. Theres a lot of things he can do, he just has to watch out for pivot grabs.

Good luck landing that consistently on people, let alone sweet-spotting it.

People can do it, i cant.


Fine its terrible, it doesnt kill, it doesnt have pull back, it sucks.

So, assuming your opponent sits there spot-dodging all the time, you could hit this, I guess. That is certainly true.
Pstttttt.... You know about Meta knights fsmash. You know how it has start up lag. You know how it has little ending lag, and you know how it hits even the best players? Its kinda similar to falcons dsmash, except dsmash isnt a sword, but it hits behind him too. Hmmmm....spooky...


Not even CLOSE. Compare Yoshi's tilts with Falcon's. It's not even in the slightest remote AREA of the POSSIBILITY of a contest. Falcon's only quicker in his jab, which is going to get outranged and out-prioritized anyway. Unless you're talking about running speed, in which case, big whoop.
Falcon fast falls really really fast, and is definately faster than yoshi. I dont care if his up smash is slower than yoshis ____ a good falcon should be using all of falcons quick moves(and up tilt, that move is godly), and, in my experience, falcon is a much faster PLAYED character than yoshi, yoshi doesnt PLAY as fast as falcon, his moves are in general almost as fast or faster, but running in, and fast falling a neutral air just isnt yoshis thing, and his fast fall isnt as good as falcons.


With what? Unless he's already attacking when the pivot grab starts, he's not going to punish jack. By the time any punish move comes out, Yoshi's already finished with the move. The only moves quick enough to punish on reaction don't have enough range to hit him safely.


Falling aerial, falcon is fast enough to do it or force yoshi to shield.

Hardly a lethal combination.
What can yoshi do? Bair is punishable and SDIable. Its alot better than what yoshi can do. Not really, just tryin to prove my point. Also, these "combos" falcon is doing, they rack up damage rather fast.


Good point. Of course, you neglected to mention that any Yoshi worth ANYTHING probably isn't going to be using his shield much in this fight as it is.

Unless hes forced

What else does he have? A jab into a throw? His back and up airs? Please.

This proves my point. You lack falcon experience. Lol, well, im not gonna list every single thing he can do, thatd be boring. His usmash is good for a non kill moves, but the others should stay fresh. YES I KNOW HES A LIMITED CHARACTER. So obviously, its impossible to get top 3 in a tournament with him?

How do you figure Yoshi's going to be using up smash a lot?
I dont, some people do, its a good move.

I actually did come close to laughing out loud at this. I really did. You must think that Falcon's up air (which qualifies as "halfway decent") is God's gift to Smashers. Let's look at this for a moment.

I have you up in the air above me. I throw an Egg. You dodge, and I hit you as you get out of the dodge.

I'm above you and you come charging at me with an up air. I dodge, and you proceed to punish me with... what, exactly?

Up air. Lol. Then i do it again. Or i can nair if u really want, i dunno, falcon's up air is godly, it is the reason he can be used in a tournament(although, with the rising popularity of MK, its difficult im sure), it links to his ground game, it is his pressure game, and in the air it has almost no lag.


He has precisely NO tools to deal with ANY situation, if you want to get right down to it. Falcon is complete and total garbage, and you've done absolutely NOTHING to convince me otherwise yet.
Cool. You know nothing about falcon. *High fives*


No. I'm not going to fight your battles for you.
Then dont.

Im pretty sure none of that was bashing, if it was Ill edit it. I dont care if you think falcon has no tools in the matchup, im practically spoon feeding you what falcon can
do, not rly arguing the matchup so much, which is what i hate about arguing this matchup, cuz most people dont know falcons options, so how can they argue the matchup. Not directed at you really, you seem to be knowledgable.

Note: Falcon is the worst character in the game. Yes, you may think i am a "falcon fanboy" but not really, hes a crap character, who just so happens to have a lot more options than people realize. Maybe hes better than ganon, dunno.

 

[Shiri]

Captain Falcon's jab is ridix.

That's all I've got to say on the matter.

 

[Bwett]

You miss my point. I can care less if you are belligerent. You want to act that way, that is perfectly fine. If you want to fight for a certain match-up, go ahead. Mmac does that all the time lol. All I want you to understand is that how you're treating people (in these few posts) is unacceptable within our boards.

You say you use rational skepticism, but some of your counter arguments are "Not really," along with others that seem to just belittle BS's knowledge on the subject. Neither of us have attacked you really in any way or your knowledge. When I talked about your experience, I was going straight from your edited post saying that you really didn't have much experience with Falcon, and that is what I was talking about. Not your experience in tournaments. Maybe I misread that, but that's how I read it.

You are being super defensive when all I started saying was just stop being hostile and show respect. This is a discussion. Use "rational skepticism," right? So far, I have yet to say a single harmful thing to you while you have thrown in my face the fact that I lost to some MK and called me a prick.

I'm done with this conversation. If you continue to act in the same fashion, then so be it. I've said everything I needed to.

 

[Ryusuta]

Well, I'm inclined to agree that this discussion is getting us nowhere. I think bigman made the best point, so perhaps we should just move on.

 

[Bwett]

Well, I'm inclined to agree that this discussion is getting us nowhere. I think bigman made the best point, so perhaps we should just move on.

Agreed, I harbor no ill feeling toward you, btw.

 

[Deleted member]

Except im still waiting =P

Show me your moves Orion!

 

[Sharky]

Any one of you guys manly enough to discuss the Bowser matchup with me?

You have to admit a Yoshi and Bowser fight is usually pretty unique.

Moving on from that Captain Falcon nonsense, sure, I'll put in my two sense on Bowser. =)

Koopa Strengths:
1. Big range advantage
2. Nice shield game.
3. Fortress. 'Nuff said. =P
4. Better KO potential.
5. Veeeeery heavy

Koopa Weaknesses:
1. Big target
2. Slow
3. Bad off-stage game, both recovering and edgeguarding.


Yoshi Strengths:
1. Much faster.
2. Great shield pressure/conbo ability
3. Better aerial game
4. Great off-stage game. Can gimp Bowser and shouldn't get edgeguarded by him.
5. Can CG Bowser.
6. He's got a projectile.

Yoshi Weaknesses:
1. It's hard enough for him to get a KO as it is without Bowser being so big.
2. Unless Bowser doesn't read when he's gonna grab/attack right. Approaching is gonna be tough with shieldgrabbing/fortressing.

Not a lot of weaknesses for Yoshi, but these two stand out a lot.

Overall, I agree with the OP's 6-4 Yoshi.

 

[MrEh]

2. Nice shield game.
3. Fortress. 'Nuff said. =P

Turtling is one of the main things he has to utilize to win matches. Despite all of Bowser's flaws, his defensive game is superb. Jabs, Klaws, Grabs, and the dreaded Fortress out of a shield give Bowser plenty of options.

1. It's hard enough for him to get a KO as it is without Bowser being so big.

Not to mention that Bowser is one of the hardest characters to get a horizontal KO on, due to him having a very fast horizontal DI.

2. Unless Bowser doesn't read when he's gonna grab/attack right. Approaching is gonna be tough with shieldgrabbing/fortressing.

True, but Yoshi doesn't necessarily have to try to approach Bowser. He can throw eggs as Bowser and force Bowser to approach. Yoshi can force Bowser to get moving, hampering his turtling game.

 

[Shiri]

Bowser's Down+B at the edge is ridix. That mess is ********.

Forward air is good, dash grab is good, (for Bowser) but Bowser's grab releases get bonked (hehehehehe). Forward tilt is okay in this matchup for Bowser, but I find it's best used as anti-air or to beat short hop pressure and to smack eggs away. Bowser, unfortunately, suffers from some of his good moves being underused. Up tilt, for example, is pretty good in this matchup and his neutral air is his most reliable off stage aerial edgeguard for Yoshi. Down air at the edge is also quite killer.

Bowser suffers from King Dedede syndrome here in the sense that his shield is fair game to beat on, but he has a much more reliable OoS option than King Dedede does in the infamous Fortress.

Wow.

What a good move.

Anyway, does anybody find it fun to dash grab Bowser's Up+B as he's trying to grab the edge? I've been trying to experiment to see how low Bowser can go without getting grabbed, but it's real hard. If you don't have any other options against a horizontally recovering Bowser, dash grab for the win, LOL!

 

[Mmac]

I think it's around 6:4 or 6.5:3.5 Yoshi. Yoshi eats big and huge characters, and he is no different. He is VERY vulnerable to Dair, which can eat up your entire shield and/or Cause upwards of 25% per hit. He's also combo bait once in the air, which is going to be hard for him to gain back ground from.

It also hurts that his grab release game doesn't work on Yoshi, and add onto the irony that Yoshi's does. Bowser is going to be Chaingrabbed alot in this matchup. He can also gimp him pretty well from a CG Release off edge. Bowser is heavy, but there shouldn't be much problems Yoshi killing him.

Bowser can hold his ground just fine with his Tilts, UpB, and Fair, but it's going to be hard for him to cover his obvious flaws in this matchup. He can gimp Yoshi pretty well with Fire, but Yoshi can do the same with Dair, which beats out the Fortress.

Not really in depth, but I'm just tired. It's a rather hard matchup to explain...

 

[MrEh]

Bowser's Down+B at the edge is ridix. That mess is ********.

It's one of the funniest edgeguards ever.

Forward tilt is okay in this matchup for Bowser, but I find it's best used as anti-air or to beat short hop pressure and to smack eggs away.

Angled Ftilts beat a lot of things, but does it beat Yoshi's Bair? I never tried...

Anyway, does anybody find it fun to dash grab Bowser's Up+B as he's trying to grab the edge? I've been trying to experiment to see how low Bowser can go without getting grabbed, but it's real hard. If you don't have any other options against a horizontally recovering Bowser, dash grab for the win, LOL!

Bowser is screwed if that happens. Unlike Snake, he can't save himself with C4. That's why it's good to recover low with Bowser...

He can gimp Yoshi pretty well with Fire

Fire gimps Yoshi? I thought Yoshi's DJ would go right through the fire, unless you're talking about Yoshi's egg toss...

but Yoshi can do the same with Dair, which beats out the Fortress

Can't argue with that. The only way around that would be to time the Fortress so the invincibility frames kick in, but that's near impossible...

 

[Sharky]

fire can gimp because yoshi doesn't have heavy armor through the entire jump.

 

[Tidycats29]

Hmm why is DDD 6:4 over yoshi
i honestly thought that would be even or 6:4 yoshi
i really never had trouble with pro DDD before
i mean most just do CG and the same ol edge game?

can someone help me out here?

 

[Gindler]

DDD's chain grab is pretty unreliable in this matchup. I find myself jabbing out of it pretty often, I've egg laid out of it a few times, and I love it when they attempt to CG me while they're at high percents because I can try and get a fsmash ready when they try to grab me causing them to do the missed grab roll thing right into the Fsmash (this has actually worked more than once, i'm not sure if it works everytime since i don't play D3's often but i suppose you can try it out if you want.

Yoshi also enjoys eating D3's shield, I do find myself getting "edgeguarded" with his Bair walls though, sure I almost always make it back when he has to land but by then I've taken a bonus 40% damage because I didn't have my second jump to break through it.

Even if I myself have never had problems in particular with D3's I'd still give it a 60-40 his favor because he's just so good.

 

[Tidycats29]

DDD's chain grab is pretty unreliable in this matchup. I find myself jabbing out of it pretty often, I've egg laid out of it a few times, and I love it when they attempt to CG me while they're at high percents because I can try and get a fsmash ready when they try to grab me causing them to do the missed grab roll thing right into the Fsmash (this has actually worked more than once, i'm not sure if it works everytime since i don't play D3's often but i suppose you can try it out if you want.

Yoshi also enjoys eating D3's shield, I do find myself getting "edgeguarded" with his Bair walls though, sure I almost always make it back when he has to land but by then I've taken a bonus 40% damage because I didn't have my second jump to break through it.

Even if I myself have never had problems in particular with D3's I'd still give it a 60-40 his favor because he's just so good.

Isn't eggtossing your way towards stage easier to stop DDD bairs in edge

but yesh i see what you mean

i asked cause i've recently beaten pro D3s easier
and i was like i could see their same exact game style
i found it predictable and boring

 

[Mmac]

Fire gimps Yoshi? I thought Yoshi's DJ would go right through the fire, unless you're talking about Yoshi's egg toss....

I find that Bowsers fire work effective even against Yoshi. His DJ Armour is completely unreliable and if it doesn't shield him from the flames, then he's in major trouble. It's also pretty hard to Airdodge past through the entire flame if it's at full strength. It probably won't kill him, but it's still effective, especially compared to the fact he can easily dodge your standard edgeguarding attempts

 

[Poltergust]

I think that King Dedede should remain as 6:4 in his advantage. Let's look at the facts for Yoshi in this match-up:

Pros:
Can VERY easily rack up damage on King Dedede
Has a better projectile
Has better aerials (overall, at least)
Can chain-grab him (difficult, but still possible)
It is relatively easy to edge-guard King Dedede (d-air to foot-stool is VERY effective. =D)
Is much more quicker

Cons:
Yoshi can be chain-grabbed (I've managed to escape this sometimes, though. I'm not sure how...)
Yoshi has worse tilts
Yoshi has less reach
Yoshi is easier to KO (curse that u-tilt... >_<)
King Dedede's b-air > everything Yoshi has (seriously, only eggs and a lucky up-smash go through that thing)
Can be gimped (be VERY careful that you don't double-jump right into King Dedede's hands if he chain-grabs you to the ledge; make sure you air-dodge)
Dededecide (now, you shouldn't be falling into this in the first place, so just be careful when edge-guarding him)
He has practically as much grab-range as Yoshi >_>

Overall, King Dedede is better than Yoshi. His defense is top-notch. Although, if Yoshi breaks through King Dedede will have a tough time getting away.

I've learned a lot about this match-up because I've played against Seibrik, who is apparently the best King Dedede down here in Miami. >.>

 

[Shiri]

As I've said before regarding the chaingrab from King Dedede...

Yoshi can escape via jabs, spotdodge, or walking away if King Dedede does not buffer.

If King Dedede's dashes are properly buffered after every throw, Yoshi and most other characters cannot escape.

 

[Ryusuta]

Another noteworthy pro in the Yoshi/DeDeDe match is that Yoshi's up air actually DOES have a decent track record against DeDeDe's up B. Somewhat surprising, considering how relatively impervious that move can be.

 

[Deleted member]

Tourny match, 3rd round. Delphino, D3 last stock 189 percent, me 80. D3 up bs, i run under to upair, i get spiked into water and die...

I wouldnt recommend it.

It does work sometimes, but mistiming the up air is risky.

 

[Mmac]

Tourny match, 3rd round. Delphino, D3 last stock 189 percent, me 80. D3 up bs, i run under to upair, i get spiked into water and die...

I wouldnt recommend it.

It does work sometimes, but mistiming the up air is risky.

Well Don't do it above Water/Off Stage Nub Nuts!

 

[Ryusuta]

Well Don't do it above Water/Off Stage Nub Nuts!

He said it so I don't have to.

You'll also notice I didn't say it always beats his up B. It usually does about a million times better if you catch him right at the apex. The effectiveness also drops considerably if you try it while he's on the way down.

 

[Tidycats29]

Tourny match, 3rd round. Delphino, D3 last stock 189 percent, me 80. D3 up bs, i run under to upair, i get spiked into water and die...

I wouldnt recommend it.

It does work sometimes, but mistiming the up air is risky.

It's better if you wait on ground and then use yoshi's Fome Ha!(down-B) before DDD hits ground
it's a free hit for yoshi
like when people that use MK and shutle loop in front of you
you use Down B and you always get a hit

 

[MK26]

Hello, Yoshis. Over on the Kirby boards, we're discussing Yoshi this week in our matchup thread, and we were hoping that some of you could pop in to give your opinion on the matchup. We already have the matchu ranking, and the purpose of this discussion is more in-depth than just that. Please read the first post for more details.

The threda can be found here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195032

 

[.Marik]

Tourny match, 3rd round. Delphino, D3 last stock 189 percent, me 80. D3 up bs, i run under to upair, i get spiked into water and die...

I wouldnt recommend it.

Yeah, me neither. I would just have shielded, fsmashed his a**, and then boom.

I learnt that lesson when I tried to upsmash Dedede with Luigi. >_>

 

[Sharky]

U-smash is easy to get in once you get the timing down. Uairs are a little trickier, though.

 

[Ryusuta]

Perhaps, but timing shouldn't be an issue since it's consistent. And I think we'd all agree that an up air at the apex of his up B is by far the most potentially lethal option Yoshi has in that situation.