Yoshi Matchup Thread

[Mmac]

I guess I can do that, and have Kiwi link all the Matchup Topics to here. Who should we start out with first and how many should we do at a time? No more than 3 Though

I suggest we start with either Falco, ZSS, or Zelda as they are the most debatable.

 

[Kiwikomix]

I don't really want to scrap the entire list, to be honest. Weekly discussion threads would be fine, but then this thread doesn't really serve a purpose...

 

[Deleted member]

No weekly discussions =/ This thread is fine.

Also, D3 needs to be at worst 4.5-5.5, yoshi does very well against him. 4.5-5.5 or even imo.

 

[Mmac]

We have to start discussing characters again though. There's plenty of disagreement with certain characters on the list, and we have to do something

 

[Kiwikomix]

Why don't we just start discussing now? I nominate Falco, since he's pretty disputed... I've seen everywhere from heavy counter to easy matchup in the last page.

 

[Ryusuta]

Yeah, I'd agree with Falco. We should definitely talk about him first.

I want to discuss Link second, though, because it seems like anecdotal evidence is the only thing that supports his ranking thus far.

But yeah, let's talk about Falco first and go from there.

 

[Sharky]

OK falco it is, but Kiwi change the thread title so there's less people trying to change the subject.

cause I'm all bleh and haven't had someone to play with in a while, can yoshi crawl under the laser?

 

[Ryusuta]

He can SOMETIMES crawl under SHDL (Falco can still hit him, though), but he can't crawl under the standing laser, no.

 

[Kiwikomix]

In other words, Falco should be fine if he just performs a standing laser spam, then SHDL and Reflector once Yoshi gets closer.

 

[Mmac]

My main concern is about the CG to Fair, and that only. We already know that Falco can hold his own very well in pretty much any given situation. Now, this matchup is more or less friendly for Falco.

The Chaingrab is easy to do (Even if he knows to Spotdodge, it's still rather easy), and the Fair spike is just as easy. The fact that he isn't effected by Platforms voids any possible counterpick he has. He can still hold his own, but the fact that if he gets grabbed once, he's practically lost the match, and at the end, doesn't that overweight his natural advantage Falco has on Yoshi?

 

[Ryusuta]

If he gets grabbed once (and assuming he is successfully chained and release-spiked), he loses a stock, not the match.

And if simply being able to CG someone to death was a prerequisite for winning match-ups, Ice Climbers would be in the OMGWTFHAX tier.

 

[bigman40]

You know, if Falco can spotdodge the Dashgrab just before it lands, then how about trying this?

Grab Release -> Pivot Grab -> then mix it up from there (either another pivot grab or a dash grab).

 

[Mmac]

If he gets grabbed once (and assuming he is successfully chained and release-spiked), he loses a stock, not the match.

He has an entire Stock advantage though, which is sometimes more than enough. Plus Yoshi can just as easily do it again.

And if simply being able to CG someone to death was a prerequisite for winning match-ups, Ice Climbers would be in the OMGWTFHAX tier.

I KNEW THIS WAS GOING TO BE BROUGHT UP! [/zoah]

There's a huge difference between our grab game and the Ice Climbers. Mainly, our grabs are actually good (Grabs itself, not what we can do with them). I grab people so many times, it's practically half my game, and Falco is no exception. I grabbed Falco's constantly in the past, and there's really no difference today. He's alittle tricker than most, but still pretty easy to Snag.

You know, if Falco can spotdodge the Dashgrab just before it lands, then how about trying this?

Grab Release -> Pivot Grab -> then mix it up from there (either another pivot grab or a dash grab).

You told me about this about the chat. Tech "Trapping" could work, but if you can CG the "Moderates" regularly, you should be able to CG Falco normally without any problems.

 

[Ryusuta]

He has an entire Stock advantage though, which is sometimes more than enough. Plus Yoshi can just as easily do it again.

Stock advantages are by no means even slightly uncommon in tournament play. They certainly won't dictate the course of an entire match. And remember that once again Falco practically takes Egg Toss out of the equation, so he can zone Yoshi like no one's business. Plus, let's not forget the Mother's boys logic that they're going to know that you're aiming for a throw, so they can avoid it.

There's a huge difference between our grab game and the Ice Climbers. Mainly, our grabs are actually good (Grabs itself, not what we can do with them). I grab people so many times, it's practically half my game, and Falco is no exception. I grabbed Falco's constantly in the past, and there's really no difference today. He's alittle tricker than most, but still pretty easy to Snag.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I love Yoshi's grab game, too. But one single attribute in and of itself can't dictate a match, especially when Falco is at a solid advantage in most other situations.

See, the main difference between Falco and... say... Wario or Ganondorf is that Falco is capable of spacing and doesn't feel pressured to approach. And unlike the other two, Falco isn't apt to be as vulnerable to Yoshi's throws when he IS up close.

 

[Mmac]

Stock advantages are by no means even slightly uncommon in tournament play. They certainly won't dictate the course of an entire match. And remember that once again Falco practically takes Egg Toss out of the equation, so he can zone Yoshi like no one's business. Plus, let's not forget the Mother's boys logic that they're going to know that you're aiming for a throw, so they can avoid it.

Yeah, but everytime Falco enters into CQC, he is completely running the risk of being grabbed.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I love Yoshi's grab game, too. But one single attribute in and of itself can't dictate a match, especially when Falco is at a solid advantage in most other situations.

See, the main difference between Falco and... say... Wario or Ganondorf is that Falco is capable of spacing and doesn't feel pressured to approach. And unlike the other two, Falco isn't apt to be as vulnerable to Yoshi's throws when he IS up close.

I guess what it basically comes down to, how effective it will be. Falco really doesn't give me any problems anymore due to this, so this is probably why I think it's an advantage

 

[Ryusuta]

Well, it's true that it does indeed come down to personal experience. I mean, my Yoshi has beaten the crap out of a lot of different Links, ATs notwithstanding. I'm presently working something out to get more of a perspective on the Link/Yoshi match-up, but that's for a later time.

I really still have my doubts about Yoshi being at anything more that a 4.5:5.5 against Falco only because of Falco's gimping, spacing, and kill power, but it still worth talking about. You are raising some nice points, after all.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Assuming that Falco can escape the CG, his first objective after he spotdodges is probably getting the hell out of there. That means it's not likely that you'll get in another grab.
The main problem here is that Falco is probably the hardest character to grab. There is no good ground approach against him, so you can't really try a ground attack until after you hit him with an aerial. Even then, Falco has lots of tools to avoid you (reflector, high jump) and if you get close, he can start running a vertical game rather than a horizontal game.
If you're playing a non-campy Falco that doesn't know how to escape the CG, then yes, it will be in your favor. At a higher level of play, though, Falco will do whatever he can to win, and if that means keeping you at bay with lasers and the reflector until he can land a kill move, that's what he will do. The problem there, of course, lies in the fact that Yoshi has no way around this strategy. Falco's versatility in just a few moves is what helps him dominate here.

 

[Scala]

bair beats illusion, neutral b beats falco's up-b. woop woop

 

[Snowstalker]

I posted a topic on Yoshi vs. Falco on the Falco boards, and I'm waiting for a reply.

 

[Steel]

we're discussing you guys for the next day or two

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5450021

 

[Ryusuta]

Well, it seems as though discussion has come to a standstill on Falco. Should we move on to Snake next? It seems like his match could be slightly reevaluated.

 

[.Marik]

I agree, and I think that it would be a very interesting matchup to talk about.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Doesn't Falco **** Yoshi? I don't think, that Yoshi has any moves, that beat his nair or bair and his Shine can destroy attempts to grab...

...I really don't know, what Yoshi can do, that makes you think it's even...

 

[Kiwikomix]

Supposedly the CG -> fair spike is powerful enough to make it more neutral, but I don't buy it, since it can be escaped and Falco is very hard to grab in the first place.

 

[Deleted member]

It hasnt even been proven to exist. Vids or it didnt happen =P

 

[SOVAman]

Doesn't Falco **** Yoshi? I don't think, that Yoshi has any moves, that beat his nair or bair and his Shine can destroy attempts to grab...

...I really don't know, what Yoshi can do, that makes you think it's even...

My Yoshi ***** Falco's I have beaten pretty much all the good Falcos in my region(Md/VA) all I do is CG to the edge then realse spike

too good.......lol

 

[Deleted member]

I really wish i knew how to do the chaingrab on falco to spike, thatd help me out a ton. Any advice lilb?

 

[SOVAman]

I really wish i knew how to do the chaingrab on falco to spike, thatd help me out a ton. Any advice lilb?

For the spike you have to be all the way on the edge and you just fall right off and Fair.


For the CG (I hate to say this so much but) just buffer your dash like your CGing a DK and it should work.

 

[Ryusuta]

It works better for me if I'm not QUITE at the ledge when I spike him, personally.

 

[SOVAman]

It works better for me if I'm not QUITE at the ledge when I spike him, personally.

Yea the timing can be easier on different spots I guess.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Falco is too good.

6:4 Falco!

 

[DMG]

I think Yoshi vs Wario needs to be revised, 7 : 3 is harsh even with the infinite grab, and I got around that too. Ask Bwett, he played me, He knows about me being dirty with Wario and him being dirty with Yoshi lol. :D

 

[Mmac]

Yeah, if you thought it wasn't 7:3 before, it's 7:3 now. I just made the Infinite easier to do! Like just now

Spoiler

Please don't hate me ;__ ;

Why I didn't think of Pivot Grabs before, I don't know. It makes it 4 times easier to time and snag. only problem is that it's more like a slow Chaingrab now where you have to revert to Standard Infinites if you get blocked off by a ledge or platform,, and it has the chance of tripping. It makes it a hell of alot easier, but damm! It kills your arms!

Oh, and congrats on your placing at HOBO Dr. Mario Guy

 

[DMG]

Yeah, if you thought it wasn't 7:3 before, it's 7:3 now. I just made the Infinite easier to do! Like just now

Spoiler

Please don't hate me ;__ ;

Why I didn't think of Pivot Grabs before, I don't know. It makes it 4 times easier to time and snag. only problem is that it's more like a slow Chaingrab now where you have to revert to Standard Infinites if you get blocked off by a ledge or platform,, and it has the chance of tripping. It makes it a hell of alot easier, but damm! It kills your arms!

Oh, and congrats on your placing at HOBO Dr. Mario Guy

Well I broke to the ground a few times while he was grabbing me and trying to infinite me, and once I figure out the exact timing of it ur infinite is toast :D

Ty for the congrats, that tourney was too fun.

Also, lol I noticed how both of our sigs have almost the same background color. Almost confused your sig for mine XD

 

[Mmac]

Well I broke to the ground a few times while he was grabbing me and trying to infinite me, and once I figure out the exact timing of it ur infinite is toast :D

Ty for the congrats, that tourney was too fun.

Also, lol I noticed how both of our sigs have almost the same background color. Almost confused your sig for mine XD

Wait, you broke to the GROUND!

O_o Noooo!!! Your going to do the same thing I did to your character, but you actually fixed those problems! We can't fixed that! ;__ ;

Plus I said I was sorry

 

[DMG]

Wait, you broke to the GROUND!

O_o Noooo!!! Your going to do the same thing I did to your character, but you actually fixed those problems! We can't fixed that! ;__ ;

Plus I said I was sorry

It's cool, I have nothing against you. :D

 

[Mmac]

Actually, you said that on your Matchup that you didn't currently know how to do it, nor how it works.

Until it gets figured out, I have to say it stays the same. Plus I don't think it will affect Yoshi if I think about the mechanics


PS, you should tell the Ness/Lucas mains about that too.

 

[DMG]

Actually, you said that on your Matchup that you didn't currently know how to do it, nor how it works.

Until it gets figured out, I have to say it stays the same. Plus I don't think it will affect Yoshi if I think about the mechanics


PS, you should tell the Ness/Lucas mains about that too.

Responded in the matchup thread on Wario boards, sounds good. I got the wrong idea from reading your posts. Gotcha now though.

Also, the Ness and Lucas guys don't want to break to the ground, they almost always want to jump against the people that can punish their ground breaks. There might be a way to quickly force a jump break like a ground break, but it would need someone to look further into it.

 

[Kiwikomix]

I just made the Infinite easier to do!

Why I didn't think of Pivot Grabs before, I don't know.

Um... You didn't think of doing pivot grabs for the infinite.

 

[Mmac]

Also, the Ness and Lucas guys don't want to break to the ground, they almost always want to jump against the people that can punish their ground breaks. There might be a way to quickly force a jump break like a ground break, but it would need someone to look further into it.

Ground Break, I always forget the Ground Break -_-

K, don't tell them. You can tell them to tap Y to force a Jump Break, but it doesn't work if they pummel you on release though

Um... You didn't think of doing pivot grabs for the infinite.

Say what?