Yoshi Matchup Thread

[DMG]

Ground Break, I always forget the Ground Break -_-

K, don't tell them. You can tell them to tap Y to force a Jump Break, but it doesn't work if they pummel you on release though



Say what?

I mean like an instant jump break, I know about tapping jump but like you said doesn't work if they pummel you and it isn't instant. But yeah, once I get the instant ground break down, I will see if there is a jumping counterpart as well.

 

[Deleted member]

In tournament, im not sure how, but this guy got a ground break.

 

[DMG]

In tournament, im not sure how, but this guy got a ground break.

Yeah it's happened for me a few times in tourney play as well against Yoshi, just wish I knew a bit more about it other than he was stationary and grabbing me and I was pressing every button as fast as I could lol.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

your grabbing each other at the same time so they intercede and break.

as such Wario doesn't go up.

Atleast this is what I was told.

It's Grab priority or whatever causin the Gbreak.

 

[Deleted member]

No he was in the air. i was cging a MK and he just landed on the ground.

 

[jehonaker]

On the Falco match-up...
I'm inclined to go to a 4:6 disadvantage. Both Yoshi and Falco have a chaingrab on each other...it's just that Yoshi's is tougher to set up with the Blaster. Falco has generally better killing prowess (meteor smash, forward/upward smash) as well and tends to be a bit more cohesive in absence of the chaingrab.

And, at any rate, Yoshi's chaingrab is tougher to capitalize on and set-up. It's in Falco's favor, but the blue bird of disaster takes the match-up slightly.

 

[Mmac]

Yet, you don't seem to know what the chaingrab leads into....

 

[Deleted member]

For noob chaingrabbers like me its a hard matchup. =D

 

[DMG]

No he was in the air. i was cging a MK and he just landed on the ground.

Our situations sound too similar, see Mmac PEOPLE ARE CATCHING ON THE TIMING :D
lol jk I doubt someone out there at the moment knows not only the timing but what to press for that to happen.

 

[jehonaker]

Yet, you don't seem to know what the chaingrab leads into....

Which one, Yoshi's or Falco's?

Yoshi's chaingrab can set up for an upwards smash at higher percentages or a forwards/downwards aerial spike over the edge.

Falco's sets up for a spike.

 

[Deleted member]

Nah it was an accident, everyone watchin the match was like "wtf?"

Adressing DMG

 

[Mmac]

Which one, Yoshi's or Falco's?

Yoshi's. Also I think Yoshi can Break out of the CG with Nair, though it doesn't stop the Usmash

 

[Sharky]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2TnQlDA-cU

Is that what you guys are talking about with the ground release? Anyone know japanese? XD

 

[DMG]

It is like that, except for me there was no dashing involved at all, he was stationary the whole time and just regrabbing me.

 

[Sharky]

Well burntsocks said he was doing it on MK when it happened, so he had to have been dashing.

 

[slimpyman]

Haha the smash wiki says Yoshi is the only true counter against metaknight rofl.... and how is wario at a disadvantage against yoshi

edit... oh yeah... no way yosh comes close to a vs falco matchup... its sick..

and yoshi ***** the fire blowing reptile. not bowser, but charizard

 

[DMG]

Well burntsocks said he was doing it on MK when it happened, so he had to have been dashing.

They have happened in different circumstances; 2-3 times I broke to the ground while my opponent regrabbed me from a grab release, and I'm certain he wasn't moving around on the stage. That's what I was saying earlier, that my instances didn't involve anything weird with momentum like dashing.

 

[Sharky]

so it could be the same thing, could be something completely different. Just something to ponder. =)

 

[Deleted member]

Or it could be a ground break that has nothing to do with if i was moving or not. I chewed him, then he broke out. SO i was stationary when he broke out. It was like a normal break, except he landed on the ground =/

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

sry but I dont understand what dr.mario guy is tring to say. That's just the normal Infinite CG that YOshi has on Wario, unless if im missing something from what you said. For Wario, when Yoshi CGs him, he doesn't have to move. YOshi just has to time his grab so that it will grab wario again before wario can escape (In this CG, Wario doesnt move, UNELSS if the yoshi goes closer/further away/uses momentum/etc. before grabbing. ex: he dash grabs, then when he chews and he releases you, you go into that animation where you fly up a little, and since he dashed you are now moved a little...). Hope this helps.

 

[Deleted member]

...What are you talking about?

 

[DMG]

sry but I dont understand what dr.mario guy is tring to say. That's just the normal Infinite CG that YOshi has on Wario, unless if im missing something from what you said. For Wario, when Yoshi CGs him, he doesn't have to move. YOshi just has to time his grab so that it will grab wario again before wario can escape (In this CG, Wario doesnt move, UNELSS if the yoshi goes closer/further away/uses momentum/etc. before grabbing. ex: he dash grabs, then when he chews and he releases you, you go into that animation where you fly up a little, and since he dashed you are now moved a little...). Hope this helps.

I am fully aware of this. What I am trying to say is that when I broke to the ground, there was no chance at all of my break being influenced by Yoshi doing something like dashing and grabbing me near the edge, etc. Someone posted a vid of Yoshi dash grabbing near the edge and the characters releasing and I was just clarifying it was nothing like that.

 

[Sharky]

Or it could be a ground break that has nothing to do with if i was moving or not. I chewed him, then he broke out. SO i was stationary when he broke out. It was like a normal break, except he landed on the ground =/

same as the video, karamity chews the fox once or twice before he breaks out.

On an unrelated note, I normally don't have a problem with Ganon, but I just got ***** in every possible place by one. Like, this was the most amazing ganondorf I've ever seen. I wish I had saved the match. =/

oh yeah, if falco has to be chaingrabbed with perfect timing, then why is he listed as easy in the CG thread?

 

[Deleted member]

Eggs and cgs, that is all.
That is because of the ledge, the fox thing, that happens. I think.

`\O_o/`

 

[Sharky]

eggs and cgs weren't enough here. This ganon absolutely wouldn't let me grab him, he was seriously the fastest ganondorf ever. Craziness. @_@

 

[Mmac]

eggs and cgs weren't enough here. This ganon absolutely wouldn't let me grab him, he was seriously the fastest ganondorf ever. Craziness. @_@

Were you playing against Zeon or Kosk by any chance?

 

[Mmac]

Double Post because I'm awesome! [/shiri]


I made a new, fancy, smancy Matchup Chart. Right now, the chart is based on my thoughts, though I marked the "agreed and probably never change" Matchups with a Star. Look

What do you think?

 

[DstyCube]

What do you think?

I think yoshi gets ***** by falco. Please tell me your secrets.

 

[Mmac]

I think yoshi gets ***** by falco. Please tell me your secrets.

1. Grab
2. Chaingrab
3. Offledge Fair Spike
4. ????
5. Profit!

 

[Shiri]

Good stuff. Make the background something calmer than OMGWTFEMERGENCYALERTWHITE and it's good.

 

[Mmac]

Good stuff. Make the background something calmer than OMGWTFEMERGENCYALERTWHITE and it's good.

But I <3 OMGWTFEMERGENCYALERTWHITE

Fine


Before I Update though. What characters do you think are wrong, and to what?

 

[Ryusuta]

I don't think any of those should be marked with asterisks at this point. In particular, I noticed a couple that I'd consider still worthy of quite a bit discussion that are "final."

For instance, the Marth 3.5:6.5 compromise was an EXTREMELY shaky one at best. I was on the Marth board when the topic was discussed. It could EASILY be reduced to a 3:7 in favor of Marth.

 

[DstyCube]

1. Grab
2. Chaingrab
3. Offledge Fair Spike
4. ????
5. Profit!

Fingerp@ss says: "Dumb".

But seriously, Yoshi gets an advantage over Falco just because of CG? Falco can shut down pretty much anything you can throw at him, lasers can put a stop to any approach (not to mention laser -> dash attack canceled up smash combo), reflector takes care of any egg tosses, and on top of that he even has a CG. Any good Falco should be able to out camp you... Sorry but I'm not convinced that Yoshi has an advantage soley based on a gimmick grab release -> fair spike.

According to your chart it's an even match against MK, and that fight is MUCH easier than one against falco. You can actually camp against MK and cg is way more effective against him. If you give MK a 5 (I personally think the fight is still has a very slight advantage in MK's favor), I'd expect Falco to be at least a 3.5 (somewhere around 2.5-3 imo).

 

[Kiwikomix]

Mmac, on your list I would have to disagree with MK, Snake, Dedede, Falco, Lucario, DK, Weegee, and Mario.
MK we agreed would be 4.5. All of us except you, apparently.
Snake is not semi-even, count yourself lucky that it's still a minor disadvantage. Ftilt does have a way of stopping your approaches, and he can just mortarslide away if he thinks you're going to grab him.
Dedede... IDK. I can see it being 4.5 but his CG is still problematic enough to keep it from being that easy.
Don't want to go into Falco for like the twentieth time.
Lucario is pretty hard but he doesn't outclass you aerially like G-Dub does, and he can occasionally be edgeguarded.
DK's tilts and KO %s are too good for that matchup to be even.
Weegee's aerial priority is getting to be a pain, and you die at DK-ish %s. I'm much closer to moving it to 4.5 than to 5.5.
We agreed with the Mario mains that he would be 4.5.

Also, could the colors be a little less... cute? Yoshi's more of a kick-***-take-names kind of character.

 

[Bwett]

I really wish yall wouldn't rely so much on CG to make your final analysis of matchups. It's not that great and it's not guaranteed. They can do an insta-grab break, which is what I believe yall are talking about above.

I disagree with MK and Falco mostly (Dsty, you summed it up pretty well ) I would be much more persuaded by our CG characters if someone posted a vid of it working while someone was doing all different possibilities like spotdodging, along with the fair spike.

Also, I tried Nair from CG on MK, got me killed several times. Doesn't work to the extent that I'm doing it.

 

[bigman40]

I'd say leave the matchups as we left them before (Snake 4:6, Lucario 3:7, etc.). Changing them without everyone with consensus isn't going to help much and it'll delude someone when they are expecting the fight to be easier.

@Kiwi: I still don't think it's an advantage to Mario. I can't see anything that you give them that little boost.

 

[Mmac]

Fingerp@ss says: "Dumb".

But seriously, Yoshi gets an advantage over Falco just because of CG? Falco can shut down pretty much anything you can throw at him, lasers can put a stop to any approach (not to mention laser -> dash attack canceled up smash combo), reflector takes care of any egg tosses, and on top of that he even has a CG. Any good Falco should be able to out camp you... Sorry but I'm not convinced that Yoshi has an advantage soley based on a gimmick grab release -> fair spike.

I'm well aware of what Falco does and can do. I still think he's still a pain in the ***, but I haven't lost to a SINGLE Falco ever since I discovered it... It really is that effective. It doesn't matter how much he can keep you at bay with the Lasers and Reflector, if he makes one mistake, than all of his work is going to be wasted.

MK we agreed would be 4.5. All of us except you, apparently.

Fine.... He's going to be banned anyways

Snake is not semi-even, count yourself lucky that it's still a minor disadvantage. Ftilt does have a way of stopping your approaches, and he can just mortarslide away if he thinks you're going to grab him.

I'm aware that Ftilt is a pain in the *** (Kinda true with everyone), but Mortarsliding isn't really a tactic he should be using in this matchup. It can be easily snagged. Plus we have alot of redeeming factors in this matchup. Anti-Grenade Projectile, Chaingrab, Effective and Deadly Edgeguarding tactics, the fact that he's big.

Plus there been quite of few people who successfully counterpicked Snake with Yoshi. DanGR and adumbrodeus just to name a few. if anything he should actually go up.

Dedede... IDK. I can see it being 4.5 but his CG is still problematic enough to keep it from being that easy.

Other people think that it's a rather evenish matchup too... so yeah

Lucario is pretty hard but he doesn't outclass you aerially like G-Dub does, and he can occasionally be edgeguarded.

Am I really the only one who thinks that Lucario completely destroys Yoshi?

DK's tilts and KO %s are too good for that matchup to be even.

Tilt's and KO power aside. That's pretty much all he has. He's alittle difficult to get in, but once you do, he's pretty much combo bait. Also, Dair and even simpling Grabbing from the ledge can easily intercept his recovery, which is actually rather hard to do for most characters. Although it's probably more to 4.5

Weegee's aerial priority is getting to be a pain, and you die at DK-ish %s. I'm much closer to moving it to 4.5 than to 5.5.

Half the people are telling me he's easier, and half the people tell me he's harder. I have no idea what to put. He's either slightly easier than Mario or Slightly harder. Which one is it?!?

We agreed with the Mario mains that he would be 4.5.

Yeah, before. But I played a few friendlies with Matador (The Mario who came in here and said it was 4.5 in the first place), and now he thinks it's dead even too.

Also, could the colors be a little less... cute? Yoshi's more of a kick-***-take-names kind of character.

But you can't deny the cuteness of Yoshi! He can be Cute and Badass as the same time! He's just awesome like that!

I still don't believe in the instant grab break though.... It just doesn't seem certificated

Also, Bwett, you sure Nair doesn't work?

I'd say leave the matchups as we left them before (Snake 4:6, Lucario 3:7, etc.). Changing them without everyone with consensus isn't going to help much and it'll delude someone when they are expecting the fight to be easier.

But there's really nothing happening here. I'm trying everything I can to get it started again. There's debate, but nothing has happened for months...

Also Lucario is listed as 4:6

 

[bigman40]

But there's really nothing happening here. I'm trying everything I can to get it started again. There's debate, but nothing has happened for months...

Also Lucario is listed as 4:6

Nothing happens here cause after we made the matchups, we didn't completely analyaze them, or people just have virtually stopped posting about it. I'm pretty sure that some things can be looked at again, and this time involve the stages and whatnot.

Btw, I thinkz Rainbow Cruise might be a good Falco counterpick. he can't spam there since the stage is moving. Granted you lose the CG, but if the grab-> Spike works, then it'll be that much more effective.

 

[Mmac]

I'll just get working on 1.1, and lets it sit for a month or so.

Right now, I want you to list every matchup on the chart and tell me if you agree or disagree with the matchup, and what you think the value should be if you disagree.

Keep in mind that I'm already planning on lowering MetaKnight's, DK's, and Luigi's to 4.5, 4.5, and 5 respectively.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

6:4 Falco's favor

4.5:5.5 Snakes favor- Yoshi was never helpless against Snake without the CG, now it's Helpful and gives a little boost to Yoshi's options. 4.5 is quite fair.

6:4 on Wario, Yoshi's Favor, the CG thing is so overplayed, other than the CG yoshi isn't that bad against Wario to begin with, CG shouldn't be the deciding factor, think of the match before that and then think of how worthwhile it after CG is applied. If cg was so broken it would be 9:1 because well an infinite is an infinite and any Yoshi who wants a grab will get it eventually.
Wario? Nah this should be 6:4....come on Kiwi you believe me right?

Mmac your too optimistic, honestly.
You've made many contributions to Yoshi, but your....overrating him?
See this wouldn't be a problem as I believe Yoshi might get where your saying. However current belief is "match ups must be decided on how good a character is against another in the current Meta"
Yoshi players haven't fully taken advantage of some of yoshi's techs as some are hard (DR).
Maybe if Yoshi was mastered it would be where your pointing at.
But yoshi isn't mastered, and Yoshi just doesn't come off at the level of play you describe him at yet...keyword yet.

Mario
4.5 5.5 has a good way to edgeguard Yoshi actually, which is not cool.. Fludd and cape? Sucks to be us.

Onion I think the 3.5/6.5 should be final for now, there was talk of "well yoshi isn't at this level of play yet so eh"
Which also helped to keep Yoshi low.

3.5 is quite nice as, we know Yoshi isn't completely decimated by Marth, however we also know Marth can do very well against Yoshi.

We though it was 6:4 at first, they thought 7:3, we mix our information together, and it seems that we were both close at 3.5:6.5 Marth's favor.