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Yoshi Matchup Thread

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Shiri

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:yoshi: LOL @ that discussion thread.

I'm glad I post here in the Yoshi boards; Smashboards wouldn't have any meaning for me otherwise.

I'm willing to settle on 4:6 or 4.5:5.5. Neutral is giving Yoshi the benefit of the doubt, I think, which I'd like to do, but it's not happening just yet. It is by no means a **** matchup--if Meta Knight had even a few less options or wasn't clearly the best character in the game by an extremely large margin, then the matchup would definitely shift even over neutral to Yoshi's favor. Meta Knight is simply just too good and that's...just the way it is, I guess.
 

Mmac

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Wait.... You mean that I slaved on the god forsaken thread for 4 days straight, writing long *** paragraphs (Which I suck at) in order to convince them that Yoshi is borderline, which I successfully manage to do, and you guys are just going to take it away?

Needless to say, I am very pissed off. I mean, listen to yourselves:

It's MetaKnight, It's MetaKnight, It's MetaKnight.

It's ****ing MetaKnight! So What? Is there some sort of rule that we are not allowed to beat MetaKnight?

And I'm not basing my game on Chaingrabs/Releases. It's Defencive Options!
 

Kiwikomix

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Easy. I'm planning to lessen the disadvantage to 4.5:5.5 and put a disclaimer in the "stage selection" part of the summary saying that Yoshi has a far easier time with MK on flat stages.

Actually, that brings up an interesting point... what stages, besides FD and SV, are good against MK?
 

Chaco

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Pictochat...but it's not Nuetral...as well as Bridge of Eldin...
 

Mmac

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But why NOW? Why couldn't you post your thoughts BEFORE you started this?

You know how upset I am? I really don't like spending 3 days defending successfully to just to be told that no, I'm wrong and he's disadvantaged.

It does make sense that I was pretty much the only one defending the **** thing. Maybe you should look into the thread and look at what I wrote before you make a decision.


Anyways, Diddy Kong to be at 5.5:4.5 now?

Ice Climbers should be moved up there also
 

Kiwikomix

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The problem with the idea of MK being straight neutral or in Yoshi's advantage is that it depends heavily on stage choice. With the stage strike system set forth by the SBR, it's extremely unlikely that a MK who knows the matchup will allow you to choose one of those stages unless it's a counterpick. As such, the matchup will have to do without things like the CG. Yes, I do know that the usmash and fair spike are still available on grab release, but there isn't a practical way to rack up damage on MK (due to his light weight and small size, he's hard to combo).
And yes, of course I looked at everything you said in your arguments with Sinz. You may not have noticed, but I started the topic, so it makes sense that I would be lurking it the whole time.
 

Mmac

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The problem with the idea of MK being straight neutral or in Yoshi's advantage is that it depends heavily on stage choice. With the stage strike system set forth by the SBR, it's extremely unlikely that a MK who knows the matchup will allow you to choose one of those stages unless it's a counterpick. As such, the matchup will have to do without things like the CG. Yes, I do know that the usmash and fair spike are still available on grab release, but there isn't a practical way to rack up damage on MK (due to his light weight and small size, he's hard to combo).
And yes, of course I looked at everything you said in your arguments with Sinz. You may not have noticed, but I started the topic, so it makes sense that I would be lurking it the whole time.
You can do an Eggroll from the first release to collect a good amount of damage when MetaKnight is at a very Low Percent. All you need to do is just alternate between Usmashes, Dash, and EggRoll's to keep it fresh

Edit: Hah! I just discovered that you can also Point Blank DownB him on Release! Not only this means that you can use Usmash more, but it also kills him at 96%!
 

Amide

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According to the overall match up chart, Yoshi has advantage against two characters. Nobody takes it too seriously, huh?

By the way, I'm still quite convinced that Yoshi<<MK. Does anyone have a VIDEO to prove otherwise?
 

Mmac

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According to the overall match up chart, Yoshi has advantage against two characters. Nobody takes it too seriously, huh?
One, he outright said it himself that that Matchup chart is based off of his thoughts and his thoughts only, which makes the chart complete bull****. It also doesn't help that Ivan is a well known Anti-Yoshi Troll also

DanGR's Matchup Chart is much better, and actually community based

By the way, I'm still quite convinced that Yoshi<<MK. Does anyone have a VIDEO to prove otherwise?
Ask Pride, I think he has a few
 

Kiwikomix

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Breaking news:
The Diddy boards actually seem to think that the match is 55:45 our favor. Here's their reasoning:

The main disadvantage for Diddy is that Yoshi=no edgeguarding. He is extremely hard to edgeguard which is where diddy excells. The bad thing for Yoshi is that most of Diddy's moves have more priority than Yoshis.

It’s kind of like why luigi’s matchup is bad. When yoshi gets hit by a banana he slides farther than most chars which is makes it hard to follow up. Also Yoshi can chain grab diddy across the stage. YOSHI IS HEAVY. He prioritizes your attacks as well. So it’s more in Yoshi’s favor.
Mmac noticed this first, he's really good at noticing things and I'm not. All praise be to Mmac.
 

Mmac

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I.... I just posted that....

In fact, I posted that about Three Times....

Next thing you're going to say is that Ice Climbers have us at 55:45 Yoshi >_>
 

Kiwikomix

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It never got any attention, so I gave it a thrilling headline and the reasoning behind it.
Trust me, I only looked it up in the first place because you posted it first. Look, I'll even edit the post.
 

bigman40

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Jeez guys. Credit shouldn't really matter....We're trying to make every Yoshi mainer (including ourselves) better by getting all the information we possibly can. If you help out, then you're bound to get props about stuff. It's just like everyone claiming I'm the best (don't know why still >_>). I try to give other people credit, as they are probably just as good, or even better than me now. Credit isn't truly important.
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: I'm taking credit for inspiring Scatz to make that moving post.

Anyway, who are we moving on to next?
 

Mmac

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Now I'm taking Shiri's Credit Credit, and that Yoshi in front of every post

:yoshi: Aren't we still doing Pokemon Trainer though?
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: Oh snap, that's right.

Yeah, I used to think Squirtle was a huge pain, especially since my patience has worn significantly thin from the more spammy style of Brawl and my transition from Melee, but as I've been getting used to the game and the matchup (I've actually fought Pokémon Trainers in tournament! o_O), it gets much easier.

Venusaur is questionable. It's weird, like...really smart Venusaurs are hard to come by, but I think proper use of its BEASTLY forward tilt, forward smash, and up tilt can make the matchup very tough on the ground and at low altitudes. Venusaur seems to be one of those characters where you have to make very hugely telegraphed approaches from all the angles it can't cover to come in safely and try to combo off the stage. If that sounds absolutely ridiculous and stupid (I wish I could make video posts to show what I was trying to say), don't worry about it, but what I'm saying is that Venusaur tends to deal well with most of Yoshi's more obvious approaches, but has some very wide blind spots that it can't cover reliably, so making approaches there is effective, but it takes time and spacing to set up (not saying that your approaches should be huge and blatant on purpose).

Two things people tend to over exaggerate about Venusaur are its playability off-stage and its comboability (that is to say, the ability for it to be comboed). First off, carrying Venusaur off the stage is a very good idea; nobody will tell you otherwise and be right. However, I think it's pretty common for people to think that Venusaur off the stage means it's done for. While getting Venusaur off the stage should mean it's offed, that doesn't mean you should slack off and make mistakes on the edge. Very much like Captain Olimar, Venusaur has a few tricks it can use to get a hang on the ledge and you should take every step possible to make sure it doesn't come back. Secondly, as for Venusaur being combo bait, it's kinda true. However, it has some very nasty combo breakers and you should be careful not to stay in one direction relative to Venusaur for too long. It can cover itself aerially from any direction while being comboed sometimes and not only are its aerial options powerful, but they can lead to some very nasty setups, like the neutral air semi-spike, or up air leading into Bullet Seed and other such setups. Venusaur is very home-brewed in the sense that there isn't a "way to play" the character, per se, so you will see very unique playstyles for each one you encounter. Just make sure not to forget these things, I think they're important.

I already put my thoughts on Charizard here earlier.

Yeah, stuff.

Man, I'm...really hungry. ._.
 

SOVAman

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I.... I just posted that....

In fact, I posted that about Three Times....

Next thing you're going to say is that Ice Climbers have us at 55:45 Yoshi >_>
I posted like 2 days ago that diddy was 6:4 in yoshi's favor I guess its to hard to get stuff changed on this thread.

Man, I'm...really hungry. ._.
I can go for a Chicken bacon ranch sub right now too
 

Chaco

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Well, there are lots of reasons. For starters Ike has a lot of slow laggy moves. Basically you can jab him out of all his power moves. Then from distances your eggs are a tool that seems to utterly drive Ike insane. And what I've found useful when playing Ike is the bair approach with utilt into Uair, into fair. I've strung an Ike 0 to 87%. All in the air after the bair to utilt.
 

Kiwikomix

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Ike has range. A lot of it. Most of this matchup is punishing his mistakes when he tries to approach you.
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: Yeah, range and that ridiculously unnecessary jab combo.

Also, he cripples the double jump quite early, so your recovery has to be meticulously planned out and mixed up almost every time.
 

Mmac

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Well, what does Ike have that makes it neutral?
Range, Range, Power, PH1RE!, and More Range!

Also Shiri, thats an Ivysaur, not a Venusaur....

So the Matchup should Go:

Squirtle - 7:3 or 7.5:2.5 (I got it to work more often recently against some more random PT Mains)

Ivysaur - 5.5:4.5

Charizard - 5:5

Pokemon Trainer - 6:4
 

Kiwikomix

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I'm not quite sure that Charizard should be 5:5 though. Other than that, I'm willing to change the Squirtle thing to 7.5:2.5, if anyone else agrees that's okay.
And I guess I'll start on a summary for the three.

Edit: Mmac, do you have anything to add that you noticed from your playing against PT mains?
 

Steeler

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hey i'll play mmac. i'm a pretty decent pt. hopefully better than the random guys mmac already faced. ;P

edit oh boy he's in canada. well i'm still up for trying it, hopefully lag isn't too bad. if not i can play someone else.
 

Brinzy

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Good luck, steeler. As long as you have a better Charizard, you should do better than I did.

Also, I'm surprised we actually got the 8:2 on Squirtle changed...
 

Retro Gaming

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Squirtle - 7:3 or 7.5:2.5 (I got it to work more often recently against some more random PT Mains)

Ivysaur - 5.5:4.5

Charizard - 5:5

Pokemon Trainer - 6:4
I don't know if I'll agree with you yet, but for the sake of the arguement I'm just assuming your numbers are currently correct. This match overall would be closer to neutral, considering that once Charizard reaches heavy damage you can just switch Squirtle in as a sacrifice and not even have to put up with him.
 

Mmac

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I'm not doing anymore games today, I'm doing awful and did a terrible job of showing Steeler what Yoshi can do
 

Mmac

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I'm bringing up Link again. I do not no longer believe he is as tough as I thought he was. I just played against the Link Main (The very same I made my impressions Months ago), and he's as nowhere near as hard as I thought he was. I manage to two stock him almost every time. I couldn't even do that Spike Release thing on him in fact. However, his Secondary, Lucario (Who is supposedly easier) I actually had trouble with.

Although I did Gimp him lots of time ;)

I actually think he's a Neutral to be honest. Toon Link is even more troublesome than he is
 

Scala

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Lucario is a ***** matchup, yoshi has to get people up to high %s to KO, and lucario does preposterous amounts of damage when he's up that high
 

Jump_Man

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Okay, I just played some matches against a few PTs.

Squirtle 7:3 our advantage
Ivysaur 45:55 neutral
Charizard 5:5 Neutral

Squirtle is, well, you know...

Ivysaur is annoying. He's tough to approach because his aerials can stop your Bair and Nair. I tried a running DR Ftilt which kind of worked. Ivysaur isn't incredibley tough, it's just that he's hard to approach, and his aerials outprioritize Yoshi's.

Charizard isn't that tough. Yoshi has the better air game imo, and can combo Charizard easilly. Plus he's CGable. You can stop most of Charizard's approaches with some eggs. Charizard is heavier, stronger, has more range and a superior ground game to Yoshi though, which is why imo this match is neutral.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Uhh i think link is 4.5-6.5, he pretty much shuts yoshi down, boomerang and bombs will keep you away(good links with bombs are pretty confusing), once you get in he has his jab and monsterous dsmash and then more bombs, u cant uair kill him, hes bad offstage but hes actually tricky to edgeguard with bombs and rangs and that really really high priority up b.

On zard. Rock smash>yoshi. nuff said. Rock smash beats all of yoshis aerials, so u gotta run away and spam. I think its 45-55, yoshi can still just camp the whole time.
 

Mmac

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I manage to Dair him out of his UpB everytime though. I also manage to Dodge his Boomerang quite easily. His Bombs were also not some bothersome. Yes, You can't Uair him, but a misplaced Dair makes him really open to attack.
 

Kiwikomix

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Can it be agreed upon by everyone for 7.5:2.5 Squirtle, 5.5:4.5 Ivysaur, 4.5:5.5 Charizard?
Also, I'm changing MK to 5.5:4.5, since that's pretty much the average of what everyone else seems to think, and it's also my opinion considering that flat stages are mostly taken out of the equation.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Uhh how were u not having problems with rangs or bombs. Any bomb techs or any bomb mindgamey kind of stuff? Were u clearly better than him(sounds like he wasnt very good, just from how you put it).. Hmmm dairing out of up b...from my memory i didnt think you could, but hmmm... Also howd u get past the zairs and stuff. Just wonderin, cuz i suck at that matchup.
 

Mmac

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He used Glide Tosses and that, yeah. And Boomerangs are quite easy to see coming. He doesn't suck, He used to kick my *** constantly, and I didn't see a difference in his playstyle. Zair's were still annoying, but he usually couldn't follow it up with anything.

I dunno, he was the best Link Main from the forum I used to be in
 

Gindler

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Links are annoying. I'm picking him up right now, and apparently the bombs are the worst thing (I throw one into the sky and if i get grabbed, well they eat a bomb, and I can use any laggy move I want and not get punished because the bomb will hit me) but yeah a good link main can be a bother with the Zair and that sword that outranges everything but the egg pretty much.

Do bombs hit yoshi out of his DJ btw?
 
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