Yoshi Matchup Thread

[Chaco]

But you couldn't chain him afterward, and what about a low percent fthrow chin on anyone, has anyone looked into this?

 

[Deleted member]

I think shiek is slightly disadvantaged to us. Also, why dont they just meteor cancel the spike?

Falco doesnt get grabbed. Nuff said, falcos advantage is still bigish.

 

[Mmac]

They can't Meteor Cancel, I tried <_<......

Also a majority of them go too low anyways to recover back

Edit: Falco isn't that hard to grab.

Infact, nobody is that hard to grab >_>

 

[Deleted member]

well yoshi is wierd because most people can grab people out of anything and shield-> dash grab most things, but yoshi can't, yoshi can only grab people by pressuring them with eggs and grabbing, grabbing laggy moves, or pivot grabs, and falco can just camp u so u cant do any of that stuff. And then he can cg u =(

Also, im pretty positive that all spikes are meteor cancellable in this game, and yoshis is around the middle to lower end of the spike strength list, so it should be pretty easy(relative to other spikes) to meteor cancel it. R u sure u are doing it right?

 

[Mmac]

Just tap UpB right? That's what the Meteor Canceling guide is telling me, but MetaKnight always dies at 48% No matter what I do.

And I usually Snag people out of the air. It works very well

 

[Kiwikomix]

Depends on whether the opponent approaches you vertically or horizontally, and at what height.
For example, characters like Squirtle are easy to grab out of the air, and characters like Wario or Kirby are harder.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Double post, with a few things to update.
PT analysis is up. I've changed the overall matchup to 5.5:4.5, due to the opinions I've seen on the PT matchup thread. Hope no one minds.
Also, we may consider adding shortcuts to that first post, because that thing is getting ridiculously long.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

So do we have a pretty much zero to death on falco, or pretty dam close anyways so shouldn't we do better against him now?

 

[Kiwikomix]

Okay, don't get me wrong. The grab-release to fair thing is a great discovery. But come on, no one is being realistic here. It's certainly not game-breaking and it doesn't change a major disadvantage to an advantage. Especially when (I can't believe I have to say this) Falco CAN ESCAPE Yoshi's chaingrab.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

TY kiwi for clearing that up ^.^
*gives cookie for meh*

I can see clearly now...the rain has gone...

*runs away due to being embarrassed *

 

[bigman40]

Got something for GW. Has anyone thought about shieldgrabbing the Fair and Bair? They might provide just enough time to grab GW out of them.

You guys kinda went straight through my question. What do you think about doing this?

 

[Gindler]

I'm pretty sure you can't cancel Ness' Meteor (it's so uberly powerful). I think yoshi's can be cancelled until the 50ish area. I have "spiked" an MK at 50 and they died but he was going rather slow so he may have been able to cancel it. I really have no idea though.

 

[Steeler]

how do ivysaur and pt have the same rating yet one is advantage and the other is neutral? both should be neutral imo, ivysaur and charizard complement each other extremely well against yoshi. ivysaur as a superior spacing game and is difficult to approach, but has issues killing. charizard is vulnerable to combos but has terrific kill power and pretty good recovery. therefore, by playing ivy for the beginning of the stock and switching to zard to kill, pt effectively maximizes ivysaur and charizard's strengths and somewhat negates those weaknesses.

stuff like that is what makes pokemon trainer overall better than a simple average of the three pokemon.

and then there's squirtle. just switch squirtle in after zard kills yoshi, or if zard dies first, use squirtle to get a quick dair/dthrow/hydroplane in and switch immediately. a squirtle at 0% can kill a yoshi at 150% without seriously risking a release grab.

also yoshi's release grab is SOOOOOO GAY but it looks like it is really really helping yoshi's metagame and yoshi should soon improve to mid tier, i think. good luck guys, yall are probably the hardest working mains on smashboards, and it shows in how much work you have put into improving yoshi.

 

[Kiwikomix]

how do ivysaur and pt have the same rating yet one is advantage and the other is neutral?

My bad, I just forgot to change the color of PT after I changed it from 6:4 to 5.5:4.5.

ivysaur as a superior spacing game and is difficult to approach, but has issues killing.

Yes, but you usually don't need to approach her, she needs to approach you. Also, she just dies way too early. Switching to Charizard would effectively remove that weakness, I admit.

And I don't intend for the overall ratio to be an average of the three Pokemon. If that were true, it would be much more in Yoshi's favor since he ***** Squirtle.

@ Bigman: It may be able to help against fair, but bair isn't really punishable enough to be shieldgrabbed, especially by Yoshi. I would just roll away after shielding in that situation.

@ Everyone: Sorry for how slowly my updates have been moving, I haven't had that much downtime since college has started. I'm currently working on MK though.

 

[Steeler]

my bad kiwiko, i'm just used to people thinking averaging the pokemon works.

razor leaf vs egg toss, i think razor leaf has a quicker shot time, but either way, it doesn't matter. 55:45 is a good estimate.

 

[Mmac]

If this doesn't convince you that Yoshi > Snake, then I don't know what will.

http://files.filefront.com/SSBBma02wmv/;11643119;/fileinfo.html
http://files.filefront.com/SSBBma04wmv/;11643125;/fileinfo.html

Now imagine if I was playing offline and I could Chaingrab him!

 

[Deleted member]

Mmac. Listen. The fact is you are a good player. And the fact is taht snake wasnt very good and didnt know how to recover, didnt use ftilt enough(not nearly enough) and didnt look like he had yoshi experience. Imagine if that snake was good, didnt run into ur pivot grabs, and knew how to recover with snake(that last gimp was totally uncalled for). Seriously, ur really good, you cant say the matchup is in yoshis favor without playing some good snakes, and im sure u have, but no showing 3 stocks and saying the matchup is in yoshi's favor.

In other news, those matches were ****, nice job =P

Edit: The snake wasnt THAT bad, i mean, he's almost as good as my snake =P

 

[Mmac]

He's the same Snake from those 8 Videos a month ago, and we've been playing weekly for about a Month after that, I think he would have figured out the Grabs by now...

And I can't justify Yoshi advantage on Snake with 0% Gimps? What?

I'm trying to justify my views, and it's hard to get. I live in an isolated location, I don't live in New York or California. Hell I don't even have a passport yet to even get in that danm country. It's hard to find good people to fight online

 

[ChronoPenguin]

*cough* I could try to be a mmac test dummy *cough*

 

[Shiri]

You guys kinda went straight through my question. What do you think about doing this?

Okay.

You can shieldgrab forward air if he hits your shield while rising from a short hop. If he's descending, you can still shieldgrab it if you grab really early and not try to estimate time for shield stun. Just as soon as he hits you, shieldgrab. Even if he spotdodges, you can sometimes get lucky since the tongue's grab box is much better this time around and can sometimes get around quick dodges like Mr. Game and Watch's.

You cannot shieldgrab back air. As a matter of fact, you can't really do anything to back air besides run away. So yeah. Run.

 

[Kiwikomix]

I would have to agree, that Snake was pretty awful. He made all sorts of mistakes, essentially SD-ing half the time. Why wasn't he camping? Why did he approach with Snake's AERIALS?

Again, sorry to rain on the parade. It really seems like I've been doing that a lot recently.

 

[Mmac]

He didn't SD, he didn't have his UpB. That was the entire point I was trying to prove

 

[Kiwikomix]

For the first stock of the first match, he could have made it back but he instead chose to airdodge past the ledge.
For the second stock, he killed himself with his explosives.
For the third stock, he threw a grenade rather than just jumping back onto the stage.
First stock of second match, he essentially jumped OFF the stage.
Second stock, he didn't use his cypher until he was far below the ledge. Both this and the previous stock are results of terrible reaction time.
The third stock was a legitimate gimp, which I will give you credit for.

Don't get me wrong, you're great at punishing his mistakes and it's something to take a note of, but we should assume that Snakes at high levels of play won't be making those easy-to-avoid mistakes.

 

[Mmac]

For the second stock, he killed himself with his explosives.

Yeah, I didn't get that either >_>

Maybe he couldn't stand to fight me


I guess you're right, but I really wish I could CG online to see much easier and better setup's.....

I still think Yoshi is at lease even against him though

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Ha if we were even with Snake and MK..........
and Did well against Olimar and Wario =P
and Pit...

Well dam >.>

 

[Kiwikomix]

Trust me, once you play the shut-down and grenade/ftilt/mortarslide spamming type of Snake, it's a lot harder to do much.

 

[Mmac]

What the hell is a "Shut-Down" Snake?

Also I grabbed Snakes out of Mortar Slides tons of times, you can actually grab the Disjointed Hitbox of his Ftilt, and Eggs are a good Anti-Grenade

 

[DanGR]

I just started my intense Yoshi training today, and I've stumbled upon a matchup that I don't agree with at all. I don't understand why Zelda has such a big advantage. It seemed easy for me. From what I experienced, I'd say that Yoshi has the advantage! Something is wrong with me! Anyone mind telling me what should be happening?

Empty SHs work very well to bair fsmashes and upsmashes. You can time a bair to enter during the slight afterlag of fsmash. You can continue to combo into uptilt or ftilt, and follow her into the air. This is my staple approach. Her grab is too slow to shield grab you and her options in the air make it easy to juggle her. Jab cancels to dtilts and ftilts work wonders. She's rather light, so killing isn't a problem.

Anyone else feel the same way i do?

btw, I've decided to secondary yoshi now. Hi yoshi boards.

 

[Mmac]

I dunno, I haven't played a Zelda since.......

..... ever <_<

 

[DarkLeviathan89]

I just started my intense Yoshi training today, and I've stumbled upon a matchup that I don't agree with at all. I don't understand why Zelda has such a big advantage. It seemed easy for me. From what I experienced, I'd say that Yoshi has the advantage! Something is wrong with me! Anyone mind telling me what should be happening?

Empty SHs work very well to bair fsmashes and upsmashes. You can time a bair to enter during the slight afterlag of fsmash. You can continue to combo into uptilt or ftilt, and follow her into the air. This is my staple approach. Her grab is too slow to shield grab you and her options in the air make it easy to juggle her. Jab cancels to dtilts and ftilts work wonders. She's rather light, so killing isn't a problem.

Anyone else feel the same way i do?

btw, I've decided to secondary yoshi now. Hi yoshi boards.

Welcome to the Yoshi boards. I love seeing all these new Yoshi users we've been getting recently.

I used to think that the Yoshi Zelda matchup was 7:3 Zelda at least. After some thought though, it should probably be closer to even. Bair approaches do work well from my experience, and upsmashes work well also. I'd say being under her is one of the keys to victory in this matchup. Din's Fire is a pain, but it's managable. Sweetspotted aerials should always be watched out for, but good spacing should help beat them out. Nayru's Love reflects eggs, but they don't seem that necessary in that matchup lol. I'd say closer to even wouldn't be unreasonable.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Dammit Les, you were the first person to convince us that it was in Zelda's advantage. Quit flip-flopping, John Kerry.

 

[DanGR]

New yoshi users? There's more? Am I jumping on the bandwagon?

I'll try to get some vids up this weekend for you guys to tear apart.

 

[Mmac]

I also heard that Pride has some trouble with Zelda....

There's actually been quite a few who started using Yoshi this week. Before, it was basically Big, Burnt, Shiri, Scala, Kiwik, Chaco, Pride, Gindler, Levi, Lilb, Bwett, and a few other odd Yoshi's

 

[DarkLeviathan89]

Dammit Les, you were the first person to convince us that it was in Zelda's advantage. Quit flip-flopping, John Kerry.

LOL

I admit, most of my Zelda experience (and heck, most of my Brawl experience this summer) was on Wifi. From what the Zelda's I've faced said, they think it's very hard to sweetspot with lag and whatnot. I'm just saying that in paper, the matchup looks like it's Zelda's clear advantage, since she has strong high priority smashes, a spike, a great projectile, and a good defensive game. I'm just starting to think that it's not as one sided as I once thought it was.

 

[Mmac]

You can cancel out the Projectile by just Nair'ing actually.

As long as you are in the act of it, you are completely invincible from it

 

[DanGR]

On paper, it looks like a big disadvantage, but in reality, I don't think so. Also, you can punish fsmashes with running grabs! (hard to punish with most characters)

 

[Kiwikomix]

I think the old matchup is pretty outdated. It was made before any of us realized that Yoshi's grab was actually useful.

 

[Scala]

I think yoshi's grab is spectacular actually. I find it hard to play with other characters that don't have such a fantastic reach on their grab. Maybe I just use my grabs a lot... A LOT

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, I didn't get that either >_>

Maybe he couldn't stand to fight me


I guess you're right, but I really wish I could CG online to see much easier and better setup's.....

I still think Yoshi is at lease even against him though

Mmac for most optimistic *cough* hasnt played any good people *cough* yoshi user =P Jk mmac, luv u.

I think its not that bad, u just spam, grab, spam, grab, dtilt, rising fair, grab gimp, repeat. Sorta like olimar does in every single matchup (poking fun at DanGR). Id like to think my snake strategy is top notch, ive played good snakes.

 

[Mmac]

Oh crap....

Kiwik.... I don't think you noticed, but the Detailed information is gone...

Please don't yell at me ;_;