Yoshi Matchup Thread

[Yinlong]

Oh crap....

Kiwik.... I don't think you noticed, but the Detailed information is gone...

Please don't yell at me ;_;

you can look at past edits, i think
it happened to the weekly back room thread too

 

[Kiwikomix]

Not a problem, I've got it backed up on the computer. What happened?

 

[Mmac]

The Detailed list is gone!

Also I think we should discuss Ness next. I don't think he has an advantage. I think it's a Neutral Matchup

 

[Deleted member]

Ness's fair makes the matchup disadvantaged, and thats it. More on this later. Probably 4-6 imo.

 

[Mmac]

Ness's fair makes the matchup disadvantaged, and thats it. More on this later. Probably 4-6 imo.

Not true, we have ways to get around the Fair, and he doesn't really have anything else. Good air game, but he doesn't have much on the ground, and his Ground to air game is a Joke

I don't think anyone will shutdown anyone with a Single move. You don't think so with Yoshi *CoughMetaKnightCough*, so why should this be any different?

 

[Kiwikomix]

PK Fire should be mentioned because it will trap you long enough to get fsmashed, which limits your safe approaches to the air.
And it is quite possible to shut someone down with one move. We've seen DK do it.

 

[Ryusuta]

Query: Should Yoshi really be doing this bad against Charizard? It seems to me that Yoshi can outpoke Charizard, out-space Charizard, and freaking kills him if he can get underneath (since Charizard can't attack below him worth crap). I play both Yoshi and PT, and I know I'd rather be a Yoshi fighting a Charizard than vice-versa. And of course, there's the chain grab against him.

 

[Deleted member]

Ness's fair doesnt shut yoshi down. It just makes the matchup disadvantaged. Ness has plenty of other good moves, but if it weren't for the fair the matchup would be at least 6:4 our favor.

Also ness's usmash is rediculous, dont underestimate that thing.

 

[Gindler]

Can't yoshi use his 2nd jump armor to break out of the PKFire? I coulda sworn that was the case.

(Oh yeah, I second Ness)...now that I pointed that out...I'd honestly rather have Ness' Fair then Yoshi's Bair, it's faster and has more hits (I think anyway, I just do it don't really count) but these are both my fav moves from each character as they're annoying for the opponent. And while we're going reverse, Ness' Bair is way better than yoshi's Fair but they're not very similar at all so meh. Ness' has a better Meteor hands down, it's far easier to land and kills at far lower of a percent (well 5%ish compared to 50%ish). PKT2 I think might be the most powerful move in the game (well "practical" move, you'll never land a fully charged Snake/ike/D3 Fsmash unless you've broken a shield or jiggz whiffed a rest), that thing can kill at 30 and isn't too extremely hard to land.

Ness' ground game is kinda pathetic (minus specials, pkt and pkfire are always good), I only really like his jab, ftilt, utilt, dash attack (sometimes), and his really good Usmash (as burntstocks said don't underestimate it) it can hit while charging if he wants but most importantly it pops you into the air and I believe you face towards him after being hit making it his Fair vs. yours.

But yeah they're both aerial fighters with yoshi having what I think is a significantly better ground game.


ps: Dair can be real annoying to a Ness off stage and yoshi can easily gimp him while yoshi will be alot harder for ness to gimp

 

[Mmac]

PKFire is actually pretty easy to dodge. It's a ground based projectile and you are an aerial based fighter. Not a really good match for him. Dair is easier to land than our Fair, but it's still rather easy to see coming and you shouldn't be hit by it. You shouldn't never be hit by a PK Thunder Recovery, unless you are being extremely careless.

I actually noticed that Yoshi's Bair actually outprioritizes it. I also like to point out that Ness is actually quite hard to Edge Guard as he has the same trick we do, DJAD.

Ness has a better air game, but thats it (Except maybe also Power). Everything else Yoshi does better. Speed, Ground, Mid to Long Range Projectiles, Camping, Recovery, Edgeguarding.

I just don't think its in the 4:6 range, but rather somewhere in the 4.5-5's

 

[Shiri]

Be careful for Ness' down air.

It's the stongest (as in, most forceful) spike in the game as far as my tests have shown, and has the ability to break the jump at 0%.

 

[Scala]

by the way, ness's usmash (and dsmash) both don't do any more damage the longer they're charged. The only reason for charging them is for timing.

 

[Deleted member]

Mmac, good ness's use pkt2 for other things besides recovery. Good ones will try and mindgame u into it by making the Pk go out of visibility and then coming back. Not to say its easy to land, or that they will land one, but you gotta be on your toes.

They can run up and pk fire during their run, which is annoying, also, it sets u up for spikes offstage, so be careful.

Dair has deley in the beggining, but with rising dairs, the deley finishes while hes rising. People get hit by yoshis fair and ness's dair is much better and easier to land, so its quite possible to land it.

Id settle for 4.5-5.5 i guess, but i really do think its 4-6.

 

[Mmac]

Mmac, good ness's use pkt2 for other things besides recovery. Good ones will try and mindgame u into it by making the Pk go out of visibility and then coming back. Not to say its easy to land, or that they will land one, but you gotta be on your toes.

Just because the Missile goes off screen, doesn't mean that people can't tell what he is going to do. He's obviously going to use it on himself if it goes backwards.

I don't really like the Term "PKT2", I call it a "PK Thunder Recovery" Because that what it basically is.

But I rarely shorten terms anyways....

 

[Deleted member]

Its called PKT2 cuz its for much more than just a recovery =O

 

[Kiwikomix]

Why has no one mentioned bair or bthrow yet? Ness has more KO options than his fsmash.

 

[zachisasian]

uh. what gives mk the advantage over yoshi?

 

[Deleted member]

O well i wasnt talking about kill options. Bthrow is too good, bair isnt bad. Fsmash is kinda terrible imo, too slow and it doesnt have pullback like yoshis, but if ur in pkfire, and hes close, free fsmash. Ive once been caught in a pk fire to pk fire to fsmash combo for 61 damage, it aint cool.

 

[Mmac]

Bair is good, but Ness shouldn't be grabbing you that often. PK Fire I don't feel like it's a serious threat. It's pretty easy to see coming, it Shortish ranged, and it's ground based. Yeah, he can mess you up if you get hit, but you shouldn't get hit by it often in the first place.

 

[!Boom!]

But, if you DO get hit by a pk fire, you have to remember to DI very well. One PK Fire that isnt DI'd right will lead to multiple PK Fires after that, and eventually into a Fsmash or Bthrow. Also, be careful when recovering, since his fair can kill you when your out of your invincibility frames.

 

[Ryusuta]

uh. what gives mk the advantage over yoshi?

Extraordinarily fast attacks, a disjointed hitbox, and undisputed air dominance are the main things. With his crazy chain grab and grab-spike, Yoshi is one of the few fortunate enough to almost break even against him.

I say take what you can get.

 

[Mmac]

I want to request a heavy debate on Falco. I think this Grab Release to Spike is enough to push this into Yoshi's advantage. The beautiful part is that just like Squirtle, Falco isn't stopped by platforms, making it hard to counterpick a stage against.

I never really have problems grabbing Falco, but if he's grabbed, he's pretty much dead. An infinite made Wario into an easy matchup, how is this any different? Plus it's even easier to do!

 

[chimpact]

What do you do against SHDL spamming? All yoshi can do is use his Up and hope it hits the Falco. Can't Falco CG Yoshi back or is he non CGable?

 

[Mmac]

Yoshi isn't CG'able, but he can still be Usmashed out of a Dthrow, which is lame.

Laser's are rather annoying, but I guess the best option is to go high, Dodge your way through, or try to Long Hop Egg Toss your way in

 

[Kiwikomix]

It's almost impossible to get a grab in on Falco because you can't approach him on the ground. Lasers and the reflector, when used right, will keep you consistently in the air. It's hard enough getting in an aerial hit. I'll have to test it out against some Falcos and see if it's at all possible to perform.

In other news, it looks like I'll have to update the OP with stuff. Hoorah.

 

[SOVAman]

It's almost impossible to get a grab in on Falco because you can't approach him on the ground. Lasers and the reflector, when used right, will keep you consistently in the air. It's hard enough getting in an aerial hit. I'll have to test it out against some Falcos and see if it's at all possible to perform.

In other news, it looks like I'll have to update the OP with stuff. Hoorah.

Lies d*mn lies learn the match up and you will be grabbing him all day. I CGed the hell out of a falco in the last tourney I was at last Saturday about 3rd round he wasn't bad. All you have to do is get the pattern down for the lasers then pivot grab or regular grab it usually doesn't matter then spike him off the edge and there you go. Its really easy if the falco CP FD.

 

[Mmac]

Lilb, Did you know that Falco isn't Stopped by platforms? So you could have CG'ed him on ANY stage?

 

[SOVAman]

Lilb, Did you know that Falco isn't Stopped by platforms? So you could have CG'ed him on ANY stage?

I know but its longer on FD

 

[Kiwikomix]

Seriously, have you guys EVER tried to approach a campy Falco? It's awful. If he's at all good at spacing himself, you would theoretically never get a hit in.
Trust me, he's not as easy to grab as you guys seem to think. Show me a vid where you play a SHDL-ing, reflector-spamming Falco and you approach him easily. The only plausible, fool-proof approach I can think of is a DJ armor absorbing the reflector hit and a Yoshi bomb to punish him, which sends him up in the air too far to be grabbed. You're oversimplifying things, and one good technique definitely won't change the matchup from a 3:7 to a 6:4.

 

[Mmac]

Going High is usually the way I go, That way, I can make him either retreat, or engage in CQC, where I'll have more of a chance to grab him. Bair to Pivot Grab works very well also.

I think an OHKO Is a serious thing. And It's not like Wario's Infinite, this is very easy to pull off, compared to grabbing Wario a Bajallion Times

Edit: Also grabbing falling opponents is probably the EASIEST way to grab him also, as they can't Airdodge/Spotdodge when they land

 

[Eight 52]

I just play Rob against Falco.

 

[SOVAman]

Seriously, have you guys EVER tried to approach a campy Falco? It's awful. If he's at all good at spacing himself, you would theoretically never get a hit in.
Trust me, he's not as easy to grab as you guys seem to think. Show me a vid where you play a SHDL-ing, reflector-spamming Falco and you approach him easily. The only plausible, fool-proof approach I can think of is a DJ armor absorbing the reflector hit and a Yoshi bomb to punish him, which sends him up in the air too far to be grabbed. You're oversimplifying things, and one good technique definitely won't change the matchup from a 3:7 to a 6:4.

If you ever go to a tournament and play a good falco you will know what I mean and if the falco is not extremely better then you.

Even though the falco shouldn't be if you go to that tournament.

Ask "off the chain" yourself and he can tell you how I beat him if you don't believe me.

Also if you know the match up you can beat a falco.

 

[Gindler]

I have played a few really good falco's, they can't seem to comprehend that yoshi of all characters cannot be chain grabbed and whenever they go for it they get a Nair in the face (maybe they have muscle memory with it or something). Lazers do screw up just about every one of yoshi's approaches but once you get close enough they seem to have trouble getting you off them except for maybe the reflector. Honestly I'd rather play a good falco then a good fox, fox has good shield pressure game with his dair while falco doesn't have much and we all know how yoshi deals with shield pressure...

 

[ChronoPenguin]

^ with a spotdodge?

Falco's Fsmash is annoying, the range gets me almost everytime, I think im out of range and then....wtf.
The reflector is annoying, if you double jump into a N-air perfectly I think you can get in though by the tip of the foot hitting his head.

Mmac is starting to worry me, if we start changing every match up because he brings something up I worry about the integrity of the list, not because Mmac is wrong, he could very well be right, but if everything changes because of what one individual says then we could come off as flaky and unstable.
I hope he's right about us having better match ups however.


Kiwi told me before that Falco's CG is not perfect and that it is escapable if this is the case.... than he really couldn't go down to neutral, if it is a perfect CG that can't be escaped than I suppose it could start going into our favor slowly into like 4.5:5.5 or something.

 

[Mmac]

;_ ; I don't want to ruin it, I want us to improve


Before, when the first chaingrabs where discovered. The Falco's were quick to act and figured out that they could Spotdodge to get out, and this was like 4 months ago. With the "3rd" Generation Chaingrabables (Dedede, Snake, Wolf?), I rediscovered that if you react right away, you can Grab Falco again, before he is able to Spotdodge.

Science news, Ganondorf could actually do the same thing also, but nobody tried to figure it out at the time, and now it's too late.

TL:DR Version, Falco can be Perfectly Chaingrabbed

 

[Mmac]

Also, Other news, Zelda has changed to 50:50 us, but I personally think it's 45:55 Zelda.

I don't know much, but I do know that Zelda > Sheik

 

[Kiwikomix]

Actually, Chrono brings up an interesting point. Mmac, I love your analysis of characters but there's one problem: you're an optimist. I've found that you're more likely to be right with a low tier character when you're pessimistic (or realistic, I guess) about it.

 

[Mmac]

But there's never really any discussion unless I'm around.... but that might be the problem....

Also what happened to the updates! O_o

 

[Gindler]

Honestly. Zelda is the matchup I hate the most, behind Lucario. I just seem to be a target for the thunderkick, then again i need to start playing more defensive.

 

[ppig]

i luv how he is the onl charcter who counters meta knight