Yoshi Matchup Thread

[Ryusuta]

He's not the only one, and he's not really a "counter" per se; he's just about even with him (slightly less, actually). That's still incredibly good, and he could become a soft counter as his play style develops, but he's not technically a counter for Meta Knight at the moment. Hang in there, though.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Also what happened to the updates! O_o

I was actually going to address that (eventually).
I think I'm going to create a new thread that just contains the detailed analyses. Cuz this one would be just too big eventually, and I forgot to reserve posts for further analysis.

 

[.Marik]

I main Yoshi, and I'm proud of it.

In all honest opinion, this thread is very informative. But I don't really have trouble facing any specific character with Yoshi.... then again, I don't regard this as "tiers" business, and therefore, I don't believe that certain characters are better than one another. Yes, their are counter-attacks and strategies, but it's reflected by the actual players skill, and whether or not that specific strategy and technique, suits or puts a character at a disadvantage. Not the actual characters itself. I've never had problems with the reddened texted characters mentioned above. Even though I usually win, the other characters have just as much chance of wining as the reddened ones. It all depends....

 

[ChronoPenguin]

the difference is the red guys are harder >.>

 

[.Marik]

the difference is the red guys are harder >.>

Not really.... >_> All characters can be hard, it just all depends...

 

[Yinlong]

Not really.... >_> All characters can be hard, it just all depends...

some are harder. its that easy.

 

[Deleted member]

Tires don exits!! Seriously gais, they don, they don exits. Falcon is just as good as snake, you just gotta utilize his punch, its so good it clashes with everyone elses jab!!!! OMG!

Welcome to the boards =D

Also, on a serious note, mmac u can leave now. We've had enough of your optimism, without you, we'd have all these matchups on 2-8 but noooo! Just leave us be so we can convince the world that yoshi sucks >:l

On a more serious note: JK MMAC I <3 u!!!!

On an even more serious note: Ike is 4.5-5.5 imo. Firstly, u cant gimp him unless hes really far out, else u just get aethered otherwise and a good ike is hard to read their quick draws(still gimpable tho). From an in game analysis, he beats you whenever you arent spamming. His jab beats every one of your options, simply put. You cant compare air games and ground games and determine the matchup from that because its not how it works out always. Jab beats everything you have, and any time you take to the air, a retreating fair will beat you out. He doesnt have much trouble approaching either, all though eggs give him alot of trouble, as do grabs. Nair has virtually no landing lag and leads to, you guessed it, jabs, which yoshi cant beat. Jabs also lead to grabs, and if ike predicts you u get ftilted/fsmashed. And usmash is still too good. All you can do is spam and grab(or at least all i seemed to be able to do xD), which works pretty darn well as long as you dont let him get in. Moo

 

[bigman40]

I actually am going to have to disagree with you stocky. (I haz offline exp so it's different now XD) Jabs are annoying, I'll admit, but you can maneuver around them if you're careful about landing after an attack. Nair is an all out avoid move. It's too good against Yoshi. If you can back him towards the edge when he chooses to do a retreating Fair on you, you can get a quick Dsmash to knock him out of range to reach the ledge. Really, force a Fair from him, then go into a pivot grab to grab his jabs. If that fails, then there are some other options (Calc 2 beating my *** right now! ). I'll post them whenever I get more time.

 

[Deleted member]

Darnit scatty. Its not that jabs are unbeatable. Just that yoshi doesnt have a single move that outspeeds it/beats it. How can u dsmash him after a retreating fair? U either shielded or spotdodged, and if u grab him, he can just ftilt the next time. GG scatty =P
When i was playin an ike at the tourny, it was either he 2 stocked me or i 2 stocked him. If you camp u can win if not u get owned in da butt. Also, go on aim!

 

[Mmac]

Also, on a serious note, mmac u can leave now. We've had enough of your optimism, without you, we'd have all these matchups on 2-8 but noooo! Just leave us be so we can convince the world that yoshi sucks >:l

O_o!

On a more serious note: JK MMAC I <3 u!!!!

Yay! ^_^


And about Ike... Eh... I dunno, I think he's fine where he is. Then again, Ike's are a ***** to face online!

 

[Deleted member]

And about Ike... Eh... I dunno, I think he's fine where he is. Then again, Ike's are a ***** to face online!

Lol, u never respond to my remarks, u just say i dunno =P

Also, kiwi, change falcon to at LEAST 6:4, even tho its obviously not 6:4.

 

[bigman40]

I never said my methods were a done deal. If you can force him to do a Ftilt, opportunity for you. You can overtake his slow atks when you force the cards correctly.

 

[Deleted member]

>:l you win this round.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Also, kiwi, change falcon to at LEAST 6:4, even tho its obviously not 6:4.

D:<
That's fine I guess... I think we've all gone over the whole "Cappy sucks ballz" stage, and you have proved earlier that he has some stuff going for him.

@ Mmac: I hope I didn't sound like a **** earlier... <3, although as Lil B would say, "no homo".

 

[Mmac]

I know you hate me being an optimist and everything... but....

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5273729&postcount=160


Also I somewhat agree that Falcon is about 6:4

 

[Kiwikomix]

That thing you posted is pretty helpful. Shouldn't change the matchups, really, but it's good to have another way to kill Jiggz.

 

[bigman40]

I'd say that if we can find something else that can give us an easier way to kill the opponent, then we should look at them again. I mean, normally, Yoshi's problem is finishing off kills, with the exception of some characters keeping him from approaching. So, if we start to get more options to get off kills without as much trouble, then that's something to look at over, and see how much it affects the fight.

I should really start trying to incorporate these Chaingrabs (I've only done the MK CG release)...

 

[Kiwikomix]

Whatever happened to Ness discussion...
Anyone want to make a thread in the Ness boards? I made the last one.
Also, I'm calling out Gindler, wherever he is, because I know he seconds Ness.

 

[Mmac]

Well Since Samus is currently Discussing us, I think we should do the same.

And I agree with Big. The main problem with Ness was that he could kill us faster than we could kill him, but now we have not one, but two release attacks that kill at the same % as Ness's Bthrow. Same with Jigglypuff, rediciously easy to deal with, but sometimes just doesn't want to die!

 

[.Marik]

I don't know why for sure, but I find that Peach's float/aerial attack spam is pretty hard to counter with Yoshi... XP

Also, could you guys make one big thread with all of Yoshi's advanced techniques and videos to support them? There kinda is too many... xD

Yeesh, how I long to have a serious match with you guys!

 

[Sharky]

Egg throw slides pwn peach's floating aerials.

Well, there's a list of AT's in my guide. I don't have videos for all of them, but I believe they're out there, and I could add them, if you want.

EDIT: done =D

ANOTHER EDIT: Going back a page since I missed the Ike talk, he can get through the egg spam pretty easy if he knows what he's doing, cause ****, that dash attack has so much range. Along with that, he's the biggest punisher of not teching I can think of, also because of that dash attack. A good Ike is very difficult to beat.

 

[.Marik]

Egg throw slide? I think I have an idea of what that is...

Is it the up B move, with a Dragonic Reverse tecnhique of something? Like, you perform the move, then slide to make the lag time between each attack more minimal?

Also, is the lag in Wi-Fi matches that bad?

 

[Kiwikomix]

Got the summaries back up, hoorah.
Repeating: Is it worth it to post on the Ness boards? We don't strike me as very sure on the matchup on the whole...

 

[Mmac]

Yay!

Ness I say it's more or less Neutral now. The Grab Release attacks help alot, and even out the Kill Advantage Ness used to have on us. Still harder than Lucas though.


Also, on Dedede, you think the Chaingrab will have any effect in this matchup? I wonder if Bwett faced Fogo yet...

 

[Kiwikomix]

Bwett claims Dedede cannot be chaingrabbed. And the fights he's posted thus far have seemed to be an uphill battle. So I'd say 4:6 is fine for now. If Bwett disagreed, he might have said something...?

 

[Ryusuta]

Since his fights with Charizard are a lot more even, now, would you say that would change his overall match-ups against Pokemon Trainer?

 

[Bwett]

Bwett claims Dedede cannot be chaingrabbed. And the fights he's posted thus far have seemed to be an uphill battle. So I'd say 4:6 is fine for now. If Bwett disagreed, he might have said something...?

Because Fogo is the only DDD I have faced, I really can't give a decent indicator of whether or not Yoshi is a bad or good matchup against DDD. I can tell you that it is hard beating him, but I believe that might be because he is just better at reading me. I still claim he can't be chaingrabbed (actually, lately I've been having a big problem with what people have been claiming as "inescapable" and claiming that it is a stock if caught in things on the Yoshi boards, but that is neither here nor there). But because of that, I'm gonna leave my input out.

Now if you wanna learn how to beat him...that's a different story lol.

 

[Mmac]

I...... I CANT HOLD IT IN ANYMORE! I HAVE TO OPTIMIZE! >_<

This is what I feel should be changed

Ganondorf - 7:3 to 8:2 (He's already screwed enough as it is, CG to Spike is just cruel )

Jigglypuff - 6.5:3.5 to 7:3 (Release Grab to Uair makes killing much, much easier. Plus as a horizontal based character, she is rather easy to grab)

Luigi - 5:5 to 4.5:5.5 (Luigi just seems hard, at least compared to Mario)

Mario - 4.5:5.5 to 5:5 (I think they should be swapped. I have more trouble with Luigi than Mario....)

MetaKnight - 4.5:5.5 to 5.5 (I won't say what hasn't been said, but I will say that Yoshi has more stage advantages (8), then MetaKnight has (2). I think thats a pretty big factor)

Lucario - 4:6 to 3:7 (I said it once, and I'll say it again. Lucario is a ***** to fight with Yoshi. I swear, he really is that bad)

Ness - 4:6 to 5:5 (Grab Release options balance out Ness's pure kill strength he previously had on us)

Peach - 4:6 to 4.5:5.5 (I still think it's a pretty equal matchup)

Snake - 4:6 to 5:5 (I swear Chaingrabbing works, and I swear it hinders him alot. His recovery is so stiff, so it's really dangerous to him, and there's pretty much a counter to every recover option on release he has. I don't say it's an advantage because unlike Falco, he can counterpick stages, but it can still hinder him alot even on the platform heavy stages)

Zelda - 3.5:6.5 to 4.5:5.5 (I haven't played Zelda, but some Zelda Mains (And I had nothing to do with it!) are saying it's actually rather evenish....)

Falco - 3:7 to 6:4 (I swear the CG to Fair Spike changes the matchup completely into Yoshi's favour. I also swear he isn't that hard to grab either)

Link - 3:7 to 3.5:6.5 (I know Link is hard (or so it says....), but I don't believe he is the hardest matchup out there

I'm sorry Kiwik and Burnt, I failed you ;_ ;

Spoiler

But at least it will bring up discussion >_>

 

[Yinlong]

Egg throw slide? I think I have an idea of what that is...

Is it the up B move, with a Dragonic Reverse tecnhique of something? Like, you perform the move, then slide to make the lag time between each attack more minimal?

Also, is the lag in Wi-Fi matches that bad?

it has nothing to do with DR
dash, jump, up B the other way.
you'll slide a little bit backwards while throwing your egg, its in the guide

wifi depends on who you're playing

 

[Zankoku]

Hi, I'm Ankoku, and I'd like to argue for Sheik vs Yoshi to be slightly in Sheik's favor.

If any of you disagree, we can discuss.

 

[Ryusuta]

For the record, I'm actually inclined to agree with almost everything Mmac just said. I think turning Yoshi's match with Link into an advantage is a stretch, but otherwise, I'd say the changes are just about right. Ganon is especially screwed against Yoshi.

 

[.Marik]

it has nothing to do with DR
dash, jump, up B the other way.
you'll slide a little bit backwards while throwing your egg, its in the guide

wifi depends on who you're playing

Thanks for sharing. Yes, that makes sense...

 

[Mmac]

I think turning Yoshi's match with Link into an advantage is a stretch

O_o! I meant 3.5:6.5!

Hi, I'm Ankoku, and I'd like to argue for Sheik vs Yoshi to be slightly in Sheik's favor.

If any of you disagree, we can discuss.

I think Sheik is rather evenish, but I haven't really played much Sheiks. I even played less Zelda's....

Maybe we should play a few online friendlies...

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Hi, I'm Ankoku, and I'd like to argue for Sheik vs Yoshi to be slightly in Sheik's favor.

If any of you disagree, we can discuss.

Give some points please Ankoku.

From what I've seen, Yoshi recovers better than Sheik does.

Horizontally Yoshi recovers better than Sheik due to Multiple egg tosses (Well more like 3 since he looses the height afterwards) , Vertically Yoshi will very rarely be caught without a 2nd jump it's integral in his play style and as such most people will find Yoshi doesn't leave that window to exploit.

Sheik however does not have her 2nd jump built into her recovery play 99% of the time, but even so her recovery is easier to gimp in that she can't airdodge it, I prefer her Tether to grabbing or using the Egg toss up close since well it's a tether and as such it's useful up close.

So recovery there pretty much even because Sheik does better recovering up close and yoshi is better from a distance.



Projectile wise, Even.
Sheiks projectile is for the most part better, but then you factor about in the air, Yoshi's is just so much better In the air, and when using it against someone in the air, Sheiks limited range is quite disturbing and it's diagonal movement hampers her.
However It's a very nice disruption projectile on the ground and can be spammed better than yoshi's and moves faster, it's aerial play is what hampers it however.


Sheik can hurt yoshi's ground approach with needles, but yoshi can do the same with an egg.

Yoshi hits harder overall, and his back air racks up damage nicely and leads to ftilts, utilts or smashes.


Sheik racks up damage faster overall but won't straight out kill and has to rely on gimps, which Yoshi's jumps allows him to take, as well Yoshi will usually AD out of his Jump making Gimping even harder.

Yoshi also has the Grab Release so Sheik has to fight in the middle of the stage, which sucks since it makes it even harder for Sheik to kill.

Ganondorf - 7:3 to 8:2 (He's already screwed enough as it is, CG to Spike is just cruel )

Jigglypuff - 6.5:3.5 to 7:3 (Release Grab to Uair makes killing much, much easier. Plus as a horizontal based character, she is rather easy to grab)

Luigi - 5:5 to 4.5:5.5 (Luigi just seems hard, at least compared to Mario)

Mario - 4.5:5.5 to 5:5 (I think they should be swapped. I have more trouble with Luigi than Mario....)

MetaKnight - 4.5:5.5 to 5.5 (I won't say what hasn't been said, but I will say that Yoshi has more stage advantages (8), then MetaKnight has (2). I think thats a pretty big factor)

Lucario - 4:6 to 3:7 (I said it once, and I'll say it again. Lucario is a ***** to fight with Yoshi. I swear, he really is that bad)

Ness - 4:6 to 5:5 (Grab Release options balance out Ness's pure kill strength he previously had on us)

Peach - 4:6 to 4.5:5.5 (I still think it's a pretty equal matchup)

Snake - 4:6 to 5:5 (I swear Chaingrabbing works, and I swear it hinders him alot. His recovery is so stiff, so it's really dangerous to him, and there's pretty much a counter to every recover option on release he has. I don't say it's an advantage because unlike Falco, he can counterpick stages, but it can still hinder him alot even on the platform heavy stages)

Zelda - 3.5:6.5 to 4.5:5.5 (I haven't played Zelda, but some Zelda Mains (And I had nothing to do with it!) are saying it's actually rather evenish....)

Falco - 3:7 to 6:4 (I swear the CG to Fair Spike changes the matchup completely into Yoshi's favour. I also swear he isn't that hard to grab either)

Link - 3:7 to 3.5:6.5 (I know Link is hard (or so it says....), but I don't believe he is the hardest matchup out there

I'm sorry Kiwik and Burnt, I failed you ;_ ;

I agree on Ganondorf, I'd almost say 9:1.
Agree on Jiggles
Disagree on Falco.
Agree on Link
Keep it 3:5, 6:5 on Zelda until you get more experience, don't jump the gun.
I'd say about 4:5 5:5 but you can say even I suppose.
You can't CG Ness, Not even, 4:5 5:5 at best at the moment.
I disagree strongly on Mario, Mario gimps you way better than Luigi which is REALLY important.
Capes are hell, even when you AD, caped Eggs are horrible keep as it is if not make it worse.
Eh MK is opinion but sure, I can see reasoning for that.
Luigi isn't as bad as mario, from where I see.
Lucario: Support that, but I'll leave that to people who fight Lucario.
Peach: I don't know she can practically cancel out your ground game, not cool.

 

[Zankoku]

I think Sheik is rather evenish, but I haven't really played much Sheiks. I even played less Zelda's....

Maybe we should play a few online friendlies...

I hate online. Especially when I try to punish things I normally can, but online I instead get punished with a spotdodge into dsmash or something.



These points don't make that much sense to me, but I'll try to answer them as best I can.

Give some points please Ankoku.

From what I've seen, Yoshi recovers better than Sheik does.

This is almost entirely irrelevant to any matchup, unless one character had a terrible recovery (example Ganondorf).

So recovery there pretty much even because Sheik does better recovering up close and yoshi is better from a distance.

You're basically saying Yoshi can go farther but Sheik can't get edgeguarded as easily...?

Projectile wise, Even.
Sheiks projectile is for the most part better, but then you factor about in the air, Yoshi's is just so much better In the air, and when using it against someone in the air, Sheiks limited range is quite disturbing and it's diagonal movement hampers her.

Yeah, if you're only using it for camping with. >_>
Needles are great for stuffing low approaches and adding in some damage - up to 18% when fully charged. It's also good for punishing rolls and spotdodges. The diagonal needles would be amazing if not for the 30-frame landing lag if you don't "autocancel" it, but there's not too much you'd be needing the aerial needles for anyway.

However It's a very nice disruption projectile on the ground and can be spammed better than yoshi's and moves faster, it's aerial play is what hampers it however.

Why do you need aerial HORIZONTAL needles?

Sheik can hurt yoshi's ground approach with needles, but yoshi can do the same with an egg.

Explain. Is Yoshi supposed to put an egg where he THINKS Sheik will end up? Because those things move way too slow to just quickly end an approach, especially against Sheik's impressive running speed.

Yoshi hits harder overall, and his back air racks up damage nicely and leads to ftilts, utilts or smashes.

Yoshi's bair is good, but incredibly punishable if abused, even with the autocancel. His other things have varying effectiveness on approach, but they don't really lead into anything. I'm not sure what you mean by "hits harder"... If you mean his KO attacks are stronger, then yes, they generally are.

Sheik racks up damage faster overall but won't straight out kill and has to rely on gimps, which Yoshi's jumps allows him to take, as well Yoshi will usually AD out of his Jump making Gimping even harder.

Sheik's tipper usmash works fine for KOing Yoshi. Sheik's Down+B is also a viable option at 100%. Though a lot more situational, Sheik's Up+B can work, as well. And the nair and bair are pretty strong. While gimping is definitely almost impossible against Yoshi, Sheik isn't entirely without options.

Yoshi also has the Grab Release so Sheik has to fight in the middle of the stage, which sucks since it makes it even harder for Sheik to kill.

I don't see how the grab release can accomplish anything if Yoshi's back is to the corner, unless he somehow lands a pivot grab out of the blue by running behind Sheik. And Sheik is just fine with fighting in the middle of the stage - when she's done she can just use an attack to send you out of it. Anyone who's afraid of being near the edge because of a grab release is overrating it.

 

[Deleted member]

Mmac, i strongly disagree with those matchups you listed. Except for luigi and zelda. Sorry =/ We're practically playing different games tho, so maybe for online brawl those are correct xD

Ok for ankokou:

I dont really have any yoshi vs shiek experience, but i mostly agree with you with the little i have.
Guys, Ankokou brought up a point that im sure some of you dont realize, bair is quite punishable sometimes. Especially for someone like shiek, who can fox trot away and then grab, and then do annoying stuff out of a grab that makes it a little difficult to get down.

 

[Mmac]

You can't CG Ness, Not even, 4:5 5:5 at best at the moment.

I didn't mean Chaingrabs. He can Usmash/Uair/Nair/Dair on Release, and I think that is devastating

Mmac, i strongly disagree with those matchups you listed. Except for luigi and zelda. Sorry =/ We're practically playing different games tho, so maybe for online brawl those are correct xD

You always disagree with everything I do >_>

I play offline too you know <_<. Plus I don't think my opinions are void because I'm an online person.....

 

[Jump_Man]

yeah, G-Dorf should be 8:2 in yoshi's favor. The CG spike is great

Also, can someone tell me why Olimar has the disadvantage. not that I disagree, it's just I always seem to have trouble against him and want to know what my strength are against him

 

[Deleted member]

I dont think your opinions are void. I just happen to disagree with the majority of them(nothing personal, i actually disagree with them because i dont believe them to be true).

Also, olimar i think is 4.5-5.5 now just cuz his pivot grab is better than yoshis so he punishes bairs really easily.

 

[Mmac]

Also, olimar i think is 4.5-5.5 now just cuz his pivot grab is better than yoshis so he punishes bairs really easily.

How does that work? If he gets hit, the grab is interrupted. Plus I don't think it's at all better. There's basically no difference other than the fact the Pikmin walks farther than usual, but what is also does is leaves him more vulnerable than normal. I even think it has more startup than his Shield/Running Grabs.

I think we're born to disagree with eachother >_>