Meta Wry Mustache Man: Dominating Strategies Discussion

[Andaya]

I can almost always get a grab off of down tilt for whatever reason, even at low percents when it shouldn't be guaranteed

Probably because they expect more so they shield. You can get interrupted if they jab between dtilts however.

 

[Tayman]

Ignore this post

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Something to consider: Items are affected by the wind on Dream Land, so throwing the Bike straight up or down will cause it to fall directly past the ledge after going upward.

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

Sounds like a cool edge guard tech.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

Is shorthop bair something I want to use in the neutral? It does good damage and is relatively safe, but I don't know if I want to stale it since it's one of Wario's kill moves.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Related reading:

Was messing around with this; looks like something we should be using more, especially in matchups where it's difficult to throw buttons out. Well-spaced retreating shorthop B-Air on shield is only really punishable by extreme burst range. This means the dumbest Dash Attacks and ~the Top 10 run speeds are what can punish it. Pikachu, Diddy Kong and Mario are notably too slow to punish it on shield if they're not already carrying forward momentum.

On top of that, this has good synergy with B-Reverse Neutral-B, as people looking to shield and punish will often get caught by it, and since it's still a shorthop immediate Neutral-B, you have five fewer endlag frames if you miss.

Exactly, I used to say Wario couldn't throw things out for free in neutral, but it seems b-air seems almost as good as f-air, at least on paper (in terms of safeness), so maybe it can be thrown out for free? Analog short hop back retreating f-air is also still really good. F-air can be fast-falled on short hop and it will still autocancel, so it's still a little better. You would lose lots of stage control if you spammed b-air or f-air tho, so I feel retreating b-air could only really be free is if you had stage control/had space to retreat.. I think Wario's f-air and b-air work great with d-tilt right afterwards, and I think d-tilt is wario's most underrated move. Sh-fair+fast fall+d-tilt and retreating b-air+turnaround d-tilt make Wario amazing on the ground <3. It's almost like when Yoshi lands and throws out a jab, but it's a little slower with a tad bit more range (Yoshi's jab range is incredible). Wario's d-tilt iirc is 1 frame safer than diddy's and like 3 or 4 more than little mac's. Last thing, empty hop+d-tilt is such a free approach on so many characters.

I use SH AC Bair liberally in most MUs. Using that mixed with RTC, and Jump Back makes your Dash Grabs, SH/FH Fairs, and RTC Dtilts all the more harder to react to. It's just annoying how perfect you have to be to get the auto cancel; it's almost a tech in itself. It's really nice to see numbers supporting the use of it officially though.

I must admit though that I use it more frequently against taller characters, ones with larger disjointed hit boxes due to the added range over Fair, or fast aerial shorter ranged characters like Mario, Pika, and Peach.

The biggest downside to it is the characters who cannot be hit by it when running at you. Someone should compile a list of characters that can't be hit by SH AC Bair when standing/running towards Wario (Greninja may be the only character standing who avoids it if he even does at all). I'm bad at things like that or I would.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Just wanted to report: GA's #2 player picked up Sheik a couple months ago and has really come into his own with the character. Last week I played him in two Finals sets as Wario and won 3-2 both times.

This is relevant because a key part of my victories was the Ground-Only glitch; DI away from Sheik D-Throw and then try to SDI in the opposite direction (for example, for a Sheik facing left, DI the throw left, then mash quarter-circle motions up-right) in anticipation of the U-Air. While he tried multiple times, he didn't get me a single time at KO percents because of this.

Though this is a relatively small sample size, it appears to be reliable and should help our chance against Sheik by a good margin, since we no longer have to fear grabs at 100+%.

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

Just wanted to report: GA's #2 player picked up Sheik a couple months ago and has really come into his own with the character. Last week I played him in two Finals sets as Wario and won 3-2 both times.

This is relevant because a key part of my victories was the Ground-Only glitch; DI away from Sheik D-Throw and then try to SDI in the opposite direction (for example, for a Sheik facing left, DI the throw left, then mash quarter-circle motions up-right) in anticipation of the U-Air. While he tried multiple times, he didn't get me a single time at KO percents because of this.

Though this is a relatively small sample size, it appears to be reliable and should help our chance against Sheik by a good margin, since we no longer have to fear grabs at 100+%.

I can't remember the last time when I lost to a Sheik, after I practised the Ground-Only glitch. It's so AMAZING that we've something like this! I feel like I can only die at 200% (With Bouncing Fish as an exception).

 

[Spinosaurus]

That's pretty big. Looks like having trouble killing actually is a weakness for Sheik against Wario. So long as Wario avoids BF set ups he can abuse rage and stall for waft.

 

[Snorley]

Just wanted to report: GA's #2 player picked up Sheik a couple months ago and has really come into his own with the character. Last week I played him in two Finals sets as Wario and won 3-2 both times.

This is relevant because a key part of my victories was the Ground-Only glitch; DI away from Sheik D-Throw and then try to SDI in the opposite direction (for example, for a Sheik facing left, DI the throw left, then mash quarter-circle motions up-right) in anticipation of the U-Air. While he tried multiple times, he didn't get me a single time at KO percents because of this.

Though this is a relatively small sample size, it appears to be reliable and should help our chance against Sheik by a good margin, since we no longer have to fear grabs at 100+%.

Just Up-ing what he says!! I had similiar great results against a decent sheik due to the same results! so USE IT (the ground glitch)

 

[Snorley]

Just wanted to report: GA's #2 player picked up Sheik a couple months ago and has really come into his own with the character. Last week I played him in two Finals sets as Wario and won 3-2 both times.

This is relevant because a key part of my victories was the Ground-Only glitch; DI away from Sheik D-Throw and then try to SDI in the opposite direction (for example, for a Sheik facing left, DI the throw left, then mash quarter-circle motions up-right) in anticipation of the U-Air. While he tried multiple times, he didn't get me a single time at KO percents because of this.

Though this is a relatively small sample size, it appears to be reliable and should help our chance against Sheik by a good margin, since we no longer have to fear grabs at 100+%.

was there a stream, I would love to check out the vod to see how you approach sheik myself

 

[TheReflexWonder]

No, it was not recorded.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

This is minor as heck but my using run turn around cancel wario can effectively and reliably pick up the pick from a running position.

It's not big but it's pretty neat and might save a little time when you went to run to your bike to throw it without putting yourself in a bad spot.

RTC into the bike and throw it instantly might be pretty cool. Not big but might save you gents some time.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

I've been labbing roll cancel grab after reflex put out his video and I learned that wario can do it out of a run turn around or run turn around cancel. Pressing the grab button in those situations normals gives you shield however roll cancel grabs you grab out of a run turnaround instead.

Seems like a pretty solid option as now wario can dip out of attack range turn around and insta roll cancel grab to burst forward to punish. A pretty unique option if you ask me considering his amazing RCG (really just wanna call it boost grab) and RTC.

 

[Zionaze]

TheReflexWonder What characters should I be using the ground glitch for? which should I avoid and stay neutral?

 

[Andaya]

TheReflexWonder What characters should I be using the ground glitch for? which should I avoid and stay neutral?

Here's the full list: http://pastebin.com/qzh0BDFf

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Am I supposed to camp cloud? I know this is a question more for match up discussion but they aren't discussing cloud at the moment and i find myself shaking my head vs this character.

 

[Zionaze]

I just go in until he has limit break. Once he has that I start camping him

 

[Snorley]

Am I supposed to camp cloud? I know this is a question more for match up discussion but they aren't discussing cloud at the moment and i find myself shaking my head vs this character.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lodt97htDN8 hope this helps

 

[Tayman]

i have no idea if this is a thing i just discovered but you can determine where the person goes When you dair. For example let say i jump off stage and dair right now i am mostly to the right so they will hit the wall and have a chance to tech, but if i turn my controller the opposite way off the blast zone i he will go towards the blast zone, leaving no opportunity to tech.

 

[Waroh]

I've known this for a while, but I haven't heard it mentioned yet. So I'll go and share this minor oddity. On DL64, Wario's Dash Attack sour hit will not always trip. I'm unsure if this stage effects any other tripping moves.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Waroh I'm testing this on 3DS and I'm not getting the trip at all.

Checking Toon Link's DTilt (50% trip rate). One trip out of 10. Tried twice.

Definitely seems like a stage quirk. Omega version seems fine though, so I'm guessing it has to do with Whispy rather than the terrain?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I learned today that Diddy's Bananas disappear after hitting the Bike, much like when they hit an opponent.

Also, Ike's Forward-B doesn't activate the swing if it passes the Bike.

Waroh I'm testing this on 3DS and I'm not getting the trip at all.

Checking Toon Link's DTilt (50% trip rate). One trip out of 10. Tried twice.

Definitely seems like a stage quirk. Omega version seems fine though, so I'm guessing it has to do with Whispy rather than the terrain?

I figured it out: If the tripping move sends the opponent toward the center of the stage, it will never trip. This is not the case with Bananas or on the platforms, though.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Sheik's Neutral-B needles have a random height value that may or may not hit a grounded Bike. :/

Zero Suit Samus's uncharged Neutral-B will not hit a Bike that's lying on the ground, but a charged Neutral-B will. It takes three charged Neutral-Bs to break it from full health.

Zero Suit Samus's Down-B automatic footstool will activate if it comes in contact with the Bike during the (really long) window; this is both if you throw it at her and if she tries to land on/next to a Bike on the ground. If this happens, she cannot do anything but steer left/right until she hits the ground or falls a great distance below the height that the footstool happened. For reference, if she does it on a grounded Bike, an Up-B used as soon as she can act will barely grab the ledge. Also, she cannot grab the ledge while falling in this state, which is cool.

 

[Tayman]

i have been using down tilt roll behind into grab i find it to be really effective if people want to jab after you down tilt , waft can be used in a scenarios like this to.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Items are eaten by Wario Neutral-B as early as Frame 1, but non-item projectiles are eaten on the same frames you would grab an opponent (Frame 8 and after).

You can eat Cloud's Neutral-B, even the Limit Break version. You can also eat Mewtwo's Down-B.

 

[Hyper]

So we eat Pac Fruit/MetalBlade/Banana frame 1 but eat non-grabbable items frame 8?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That's right. Also, in the instance where we can Neutral-B both a non-item projectile and an opponent at the same time, you will swallow the projectile and not grab the opponent.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Random, but I'm pretty sure the bike can combo into a wheelie. I did it while playing online, but I need to see if I saved the video and how I did it. It was on a Ryu. Probably DI dependent.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What kind of combo? You mean "drive into the opponent -> immediate Wheelie?" Yeah, it's guaranteed at any relevant percent.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

What kind of combo? You mean "drive into the opponent -> immediate Wheelie?" Yeah, it's guaranteed at any relevant percent.

My bad, I described it poorly. It involved me landing a wheelie crash, not hit-->lift bike up, but regular bike hit-->initiate wheelie-->wheelie land.

Btw, I was wrong, it was not on ryu, but little mac, and I did save the video, but cropped it because it would be embarrassing to show how much I used bike for this match.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UpmgyMd09Q

Not sure this is practical or a true combo. I think what I did was fail to get the wheelie initiation hitbox due to wifi lag and then got really lucky. It seems like the time Wario is forced to hold out the wheelie before being able to drop/crash the wheelie is just long enough for him to catch the opponent in hitstun.

 

[Boost4u]

Yeah I've got those too on accident. It was on a Link and Captain Falcon. Who both happen to be fast fallers

 

[TheReflexWonder]

My initial guess is that it's heavily dependent on opponent's DI-ing away, but that it's more likely to work against characters with high fall speed/weight. Someone posted the same thing against a R.O.B. player, which is a character with middling fall speed but high weight.

EDIT: Just tested it; it requires no DI or actively bad DI for this to happen. Again, most likely on high fall speed/weight.

 

[Spinosaurus]

This was brought up in the earlier pages in this thread. I'm pretty sure it's really situational all around and heavily dependent on the opponent's DI, especially since the wheelie slam doesn't have a hitbox on the way down.

That said, if there's any practical use for it that'd be great.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

You definitely would need a large amount of stage to pull it off on purpose. I'd think against fast fallers they would need to di in or not at all and floaties would need to di away or not at all. I feel like it'd work ok on duck hunt since the stage is really long.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yes, they basically have to have actively bad DI in order for them not to be able to jump away. One thing you can do is pull out the Bike toward the stage with your back at the right edge, and you'll have almost no speed. The moment you choose to accelerate with Forward, you'll gain a really weak hitbox that can be difficult to see coming/tech against.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If you're having trouble against run -> shield or dancetrotting, here's something to consider:

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

If you're having trouble against run -> shield or dancetrotting, here's something to consider:

I'm surprised this was and is a thing in Smash 4. Reflex has crazy good eyes.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Is nair to waft impossible if I use nair right next to the opponent, like in their face?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Is nair to waft impossible if I use nair right next to the opponent, like in their face?

It all depends on percent, since the first hit sends them away. The closer you are to the ground when you land the second hit of N-Air, the more leeway you have to combo from N-Air.