Work In Progress Wozzy Woxy-Wombat Wread of Wishful Wicked Wonder

[KuroganeHammer]

I am yet to see frame data, but EVERYONE is complaining about how hard it is to punish a roll. I'm getting better at it, but the frame window seems incredibly small. Right, @ S.D ?

its ok, frame data soonish

i know everyone is complaining about them, but personally I've had no problems with them, if they were significantly better than Brawl they would suddenly become movement options d:

Slower isn't necessarily a downside of it though, just a difference.

This is a fair enough assumption

also it does less damage and knockback when rode on.

 

[Shaya]

Marth had like 22-23 frame rolls in the E3 build from video analysis and stuff, but it's now 30 frames long.
Down from 4-23 / 35 Marth in Brawl. Most rolls had 12 frames of cooldown from invincibility, I wouldn't be surprised if that's less, but I would assume rolls aren't that much faster this game.

Best brawl rolls right here though (all forward):

5-12 / 23 Metaknight
4-19 / 27 Lucario
4-17 / 27 Pit
4-15 / 27 Zero Suit Samus
4-19 / 29 Diddy
4-19 / 29 Squirtle

http://smashboards.com/threads/dodge-roll-frame-data-now-with-air-dodge.225510/

http://smashboards.com/threads/dodge-roll-frame-data-now-with-air-dodge.225510/

 

[S.D]

I am yet to see frame data, but EVERYONE is complaining about how hard it is to punish a roll. I'm getting better at it, but the frame window seems incredibly small. Right, @ S.D ?

Anyone who claims rolling isn't stupid clearly hasn't played someone who uses it as their only form of movement. The punish window is STUPIDLY small. Guess what aero just because you haven't had problems with it doesn't mean it's not a problem. I don't have a problem 4 stocking a domestic cat in melee but that doesn't really give us empirical data.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Anyone who claims rolling isn't stupid clearly hasn't played someone who uses it as their only form of movement. The punish window is STUPIDLY small. Guess what aero just because you haven't had problems with it doesn't mean it's not a problem. I don't have a problem 4 stocking a domestic cat in melee but that doesn't really give us empirical data.

Marth had like 22-23 frame rolls in the E3 build from video analysis and stuff, but it's now 30 frames long.
Down from 4-23 / 35 Marth in Brawl. Most rolls had 12 frames of cooldown from invincibility, I wouldn't be surprised if that's less, but I would assume rolls aren't that much faster this game.

Best brawl rolls right here though (all forward):

5-12 / 23 Metaknight
4-19 / 27 Lucario
4-17 / 27 Pit
4-15 / 27 Zero Suit Samus
4-19 / 29 Diddy
4-19 / 29 Squirtle

http://smashboards.com/threads/dodge-roll-frame-data-now-with-air-dodge.225510/

 

[S.D]

What's your point?
Here is some Brawl data, this somehow gives my posts validity?
Show me some cooldown data on rolls that actually supports your claims FOR SMASH 4.
That's like me giving frame data from mario party, totally irrelevant...

 

[KuroganeHammer]

What's your point?
Here is some Brawl data, this somehow gives my posts validity?
Show me some cooldown data on rolls that actually supports your claims FOR SMASH 4.
That's like me giving frame data from mario party, totally irrelevant...

Shaya has access to a capture card

Shaya looked into rolls

Shaya compared Smash 4 Marth's roll to some of Brawls

It's not that hard to understand imo

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, invincibility/cooldown on these rolls could be close to non-existent, even if they're still the same total length of animations.

It's just the new spot dodge.
Which by the way, is still a really good lol-cheesy option, which if Toon Link still has one of the best of (I think he does) it's fun to spot dodge spam for 30 seconds on for glory without getting hit. BUFFERING NEVER BEEN EASIER.

All I know is that Marth's rolls are 30 frames in this, i dont know invincibility frames at all. Other characters could have them faster/slower/who knows.

 

[S.D]

Shaya has access to a capture card

Shaya looked into rolls

Shaya compared Smash 4 Marth's roll to some of Brawls

It's not that hard to understand imo

Is this melee hell smash 4 edition?

1/ Marth is not the only character in smash 4.

2/ He compared the LENGTH of the roll itself NOT COOLDOWN which is the actual problem. A roll could take 1 frame and go across the whole level and wouldn't be a problem if there was like 10000 frames of cooldown. Conversely it could be 10000 frames long and have 1 frame of ending lag cooldown, meaning it would be impossible not to telegraph but a one frame punish window would still means whiffs.

3/ See below as to the actual parameters of Shaya's tiny sample size, non conclusive study relating to NOTHING that we're actually discussing here.

Yeah, invincibility/cooldown on these rolls could be close to non-existent, even if they're still the same total length of animations.

All I know is that Marth's rolls are 30 frames in this, i dont know invincibility frames at all. Other characters could have them faster/slower/who knows.

It's not that hard to understand.

 

[Attila_]

Rolls are definitely better. As are ledge getups, but not getup attacks.

Play the game, try to time a charge smash against these things; it's not easy.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

ok

ten ok's

 

[Shaya]

There's a degree of blame I'm willing to take here.
Aerodrome assumes I went and tested every roll in the game yesterday or something.
He assumed very very wrong.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It's fine Shaya, I have a good eye for these things. Wii U version will make everything clear.

I mean, I could be wrong! I was wrong once in 2002.

 

[Venks]

Rolls are definitely better. As are ledge getups, but not getup attacks.

Play the game, try to time a charge smash against these things; it's not easy.

Rolls feel better to me, but I can't be sure. But I don't have trouble punishing them. I wouldn't be surprised though if they actually have more frames of invincibility or less ending frames. It seems to be the same with counters in this game. Still fully punishable, but they feel safer than they were in Brawl.

But my goodness standing up at the ledge has to be the best option there is. It's been so good that I assumed it was fully invincible until idle.
It seems the window to punish is crazy small. Against Redact at RMIT I predicted multiple stand ups at the ledge, but I could never get the timing for a smash punish. I'm not too surprised because my accuracy on one-frame link combos in Street Fighter is about 10%. Anything less than three frames is just too difficult for me to perform consistently.

 

[Attila_]

Even if there is only one frame to punish before shield, the window is still larger than one frame. Most moves in smash (99%?) have hitboxes out for longer than a single frame, giving you room for error. Choose attacks that cover a longer period to lessen the burden of timing. In regards to Mac, it seems like most of his smashes actually are active for a decent time period; time work on some timing.

 

[Luco]

I find getup on the ledges incredibly difficult to punish, I have to sit there using Nair or Dair to do it. I really need to get up in that way more.

 

[Shaya]

Hint: Windboxes

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I find getup on the ledges incredibly difficult to punish, I have to sit there using Nair or Dair to do it. I really need to get up in that way more.

I find that Getup attacks on the ledge are REALLY good in the game.... or maybe i just get lucky

 

[Shaya]

I have come to particularly respect regular gets up just a little, but it's the sheer fact that it's the best option that makes it a liability.
Like, what are you going to do from that get up? Obviously shield. Maybe you'll even spot dodge, that seems pretty common. Because every other choice isn't as safe and is much easier to react to.

I dislike that ledge jumps don't have any invincibility basically (Donkey Kong's Down B customs have all but shown me the cold hard truth of this :<), but yeah, that means there's only one safe option. And covering a single option isn't so bad when you know they won't have ledge invincibility in just a moments time, leaving their only option as a get up.

 

[SurvivorSeb]

Seriously what do you do against DK spamming down B fire custom at the ledge while you're sitting on it???

Ban it?!

 

[Shaya]

Falco Forward Air.
Rekt.

Don't know about the rest of the cast though, I guess they're kinda screwed if they don't have 100% hit rate Drill Peck.
After contemplating though, I thought that it would depend if it hits below the stage or not, ledge drop uairs should kinda cover it for most characters if it doesn't as you stand dangerously close to the ledge to get that fire hitbox.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Seriously what do you do against DK spamming down B fire custom at the ledge while you're sitting on it???

Ban it?!

Hint: Windboxes
lol jk. Man that is annoying
I have no clue what to do against that... I mean, you could counter if you are using a character that can do it

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Seriously what do you do against DK spamming down B fire custom at the ledge while you're sitting on it???

Ban it?!

This applies to Gunner fire pillar side b as well, and a few other moves.

I know people are saying they're good, but ledge options suck in this game for me personally.

 

[Attila_]

I find that Getup attacks on the ledge are REALLY good in the game.... or maybe i just get lucky

There doesn't seem to be any invincibility while the actual attack is out; challenge them and you beat them outright. Timing is generous.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

There doesn't seem to be any invincibility while the actual attack is out; challenge them and you beat them outright. Timing is generous.

Lmao... then clearly I'm just really lucky then

 

[Shaya]

I decided to do the right thing (i.e. what @ dean. wanted) by splitting up the more general smash 4 stuff with the ruleset discussion.
I realised we have a thread literally perfect for it already, that being this one.

 

[Jamwa]

looking at ausmash website and found this:
"I hear since it’s the southern hemisphere Lucas can grab-release Marth." - Oats

 

[Lex__]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2515294/?ref_=nm_ov_bio_lk1
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm5411780/

 

[dreadtech]

...........****!

 

[Star ☆]

DONUT | Dreadtech

The Sheik Chain

 

[Meredy]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2515294/?ref_=nm_ov_bio_lk1
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm5411780/

OH. MY GOD.

 

[Lex__]

 

[Dekar289]

 

[Shaya]

Smash 4 on WiiU has had it's release date changed to November 28, 1 week after the USA.

Pretty big news!
For TOs and players alike, this is a big wake up call. We're literally (-1d) 4 weeks away.

It seems that characters and customs both can interchangeably be transferred to each other. In theory day 1 (November 29th) could be ready and able "game" (probably would miss some stages, but you could start safe with just smashville, bf, FD; lol), if a single 3DS group has together all custom moves between them and can bring them all into a WiiU, and likely reversed back so logistics issues could be dealt with surgically.

e.g. Set up time for WiiUs, bring them down from 10am, hoping to start tournaments at 12pm, we'll run an 8man free for all or 4v4 tournament to keep people amused! Should hopefully take 5-10 minutes for each WiiU to get geared up and if we have multiple 3DS with full sets, they could all be done simultaneously.

 

[dean.]

so who else's smash 4 main was nerfed after this patch?
brb crying over minuscule changes

 

[DD_]

so who else's smash 4 main was nerfed after this patch?
brb crying over minuscule changes

Bowsercide makes me lose? :'(

 

[Shaya]

Get on your knees Sheik/Greninja - Sonic is the realest ninja.

*shudder* Shake up on some of the best characters, I personally rate Diddy/Sonic/Ness/Rosalina as probably the top 4 atm.

Looking forward to playing IKE though.

 

[Jamwa]

HE'LL ALWAYS BE THERE FOR YOU

 

[dean.]

i didn't think dedede was a good character at all so was SurPr15ed he got any nerfs at all (as minor as they are). sheik and greninja nerfs are always welcome though

 

[Keizzz]

Hey guys, I'm Keiz, a highschooler who just recently started playing Sm4sh. I never really have played any other game competitively but I used to play heaps of Brawl casually with my friends in New York... until I moved to Sydney three years ago. I went to Smash City 2 and had an absolute BLAST playing against and learning from so many skilled players (special thanks to Luco for pretty much shepherding me everywhere and helping me get the hang of things). It's practically added a whole new dimension to the game that I never knew about. I didn't do so well, but that's expected as it was my first. You gotta start somewhere amirite?

So yeah, nice to meet y'all and am stoked about how accepting the smash community seems to be around these parts!

 

[ZetTroxX]

Sup guys. I will do a 3 month Work & Travel Trip to New Zeeland starting in the middle of February '15. I will start my trip in Auckland, from there I have not planned anything yet. Are there any Melee players out there?