Would you support per-player input buffering?

[Thane of Blue Flames]

How do you determine that they're equally important? Many other games with little to no physical element are still popular, while very few games that have very little mental element are popular. I think that suggests that the mental element is at least more important than the physical one.

Because there was Smash game that was almost all Yomi.

We modded it.

 

[Terotrous]

Because there was Smash game that was almost all Yomi.

We modded it.

It still had fans. It might well still be quite popular if its balance wasn't so horrible.

I played BBrawl for years, which is a huge improvement over the original Brawl, despite not changing its physics in any significant way. Honestly, if Brawl had been like that to begin with, I don't think there would have ever been a Project M.


That being said, I could perhaps see the argument that the PM community could be especially hostile to this suggestion if they came here to get away from Brawl. However, there are quite a lot of former Brawl players playing PM, and with the buffer you might be able to get the rest to come over.

 

[TreK]

Two questions tho :
1) Is there anything you can do with a buffer that you can't do on vanilla ? I know there is at the very least BDACUS.
2) Is there anything you can do on vanilla that you can't do with a buffer ? I don't know of anything that fits this category.

Because I'm okay with adding some more customization, but that goes away as soon as there is one option that is better than the others without any drawback.
And I'm talking about objective stuff here. Not "well it makes stuff easier". I've made some Melee players play Brawl and PM with the 3 frames buffer, and buffering screwed them over more than once. It made them SD a whole lot, made them do a bunch of mistakes, and feel like the game wasn't responding correctly to their inputs. If you ask me, a buffer is more of a preference thing, and as such, it deserves to be at the very least discussed. But as I said, if there is one clear victor in the context of Project M, screw it, I'll live without it lmao.

 

[Terotrous]

Two questions tho :
1) Is there anything you can do with a buffer that you can't do on vanilla ? I know there is at the very least BDACUS.
2) Is there anything you can do on vanilla that you can't do with a buffer ? I don't know of anything that fits this category.

1) Actually, I believe BDacus is impossible with a 3 frame buffer, because it requires 3 separate inputs, all of which need to be separated by at least one frame, and two are the same motion, so a 1 frame gap must be inserted between them, which suggests the minimum buffer for this to be possible is 4 frames.

In general, the way the buffer works is that it sends your inputs on a later frame, so it shouldn't allow you to do anything you can't do normally, because you could just press the input yourself.


2) Yes, there are probably certain option selects that fall into this category, since in some cases you want a move not to come out if the situation changes, but thanks to the buffer it still will. However, option selects are rarely used and I think this is a fair tradeoff for easier inputs.

 

[standardtoaster]

I know with buffer on you can do the Ganon Super Jump (height is incredibly small compared to brawl. RIP). It's also really easy to multishine with the buffer on. it's stupid lol

 

[TreK]

I'm guessing this doesn't work with a buffer :

http://smashboards.com/threads/new-oos-option-as-peach-and-yoshi.352197/

 

[Terotrous]

I know with buffer on you can do the Ganon Super Jump (height is incredibly small compared to brawl. RIP). It's also really easy to multishine with the buffer on. it's stupid lol

Ganon superjump is likely impractical, given that it has no height anymore. Just how powerful is multishining in PM now that shine no longer has intangibility?

I'm guessing this doesn't work with a buffer :

http://smashboards.com/threads/new-oos-option-as-peach-and-yoshi.352197/

I'm pretty sure that should still work. It's just a very low to the ground double jump cancel.

 

[standardtoaster]

invinc on shine has no impact on how effective multishining is tbh. it's just an incredibly powerful tool

 

[Terotrous]

invinc on shine has no impact on how effective multishining is tbh. it's just an incredibly powerful tool

Well, it would mean it can now trade in some situations, so unless you're only using it in combos it would matter at least a little.

Also, it seems like a fair number of really strong Fox / Falco players can actually multishine fairly consistently in Melee.

 

[The_NZA]

Uhh, yes there totally are. The top tiers render many characters redundant because they just can't compete against them. Look at Fox's matchup chart for example. If you have a matchup against Fox that's 30-70 or worse, you're irrelevant, which is close to half the cast.

Half of the cast are bad in Melee, while in this game, that isn't close to true. Regardless, that point doesn't have anything to do with your argument, which was essentially "it doesn't matter how hard something is required to do for it to be considered broken. It will be figured out and exploited". This runs in stark contrast to the fact that we have yet to see a tournament set where a fox has looked broken, meanwhile Metaknight was broken in Brawl. Part of that had to do with how easy it was to break metaknight compared to Fox.

Matchup charts mean very little when compared to actual hard results. Which I'm arguing prove without a doubt that the ease with which a technique can be used does have a considerable impact on the results we end up with.

 

[Terotrous]

Half of the cast are bad in Melee, while in this game, that isn't close to true. Regardless, that point doesn't have anything to do with your argument, which was essentially "it doesn't matter how hard something is required to do for it to be considered broken. It will be figured out and exploited". This runs in stark contrast to the fact that we have yet to see a tournament set where a fox has looked broken, meanwhile Metaknight was broken in Brawl. Part of that had to do with how easy it was to break metaknight compared to Fox.

I'm pretty sure the entirety of that is due to the fact that other characters got better. Fox and Falco clearly did break Melee, because they had incredible power if you could execute them well enough, and people learned how to do it. There are already PM players with incredible execution with these characters, but they're no longer as broken because the cast has better tools to deal with them now.

 

[The_NZA]

I'm pretty sure the entirety of that is due to the fact that other characters got better. Fox and Falco clearly did break Melee, because they had incredible power if you could execute them well enough, and people learned how to do it. There are already PM players with incredible execution with these characters, but they're no longer as broken because the cast has better tools to deal with them now.

I don't understand what you are saying. Are you trying to imply that Fox wasn't broken in melee, or that the other melee top tiers grew to a comparable skill level, or something altogether different? If you believe Fox was SS class and the other 7 were S-B class, then it would follow that we'd have seen a set by now where a fox looked so dominant, he looked unbeatable.

That hasn't happened, to my knowledge.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

That being said, I could perhaps see the argument that the PM community could be especially hostile to this suggestion if they came here to get away from Brawl. However, there are quite a lot of former Brawl players playing PM, and with the buffer you might be able to get the rest to come over.

No, the argument I am making is that emphasis you're putting on the mental aspect is unnecessary and this game is balanced around strategy and execution being equally important. Matches are people capitalizing off errors with their strong punish games, whether that was through a bad read or mis-timed L-Cancel. The execution barrier currently in place is not difficult to overcome but the lack of consistency is what keeps the meta interesting and competitive. Otherwise all you have is two characters dash-dancing about the stage until someone over-extends and gets deathtouched. That's what an all yomi PM looks like.

 

[Terotrous]

I don't understand what you are saying. Are you trying to imply that Fox wasn't broken in melee, or that the other melee top tiers grew to a comparable skill level, or something altogether different? If you believe Fox was SS class and the other 7 were S-B class, then it would follow that we'd have seen a set by now where a fox looked so dominant, he looked unbeatable.

That hasn't happened, to my knowledge.

What I'm saying is that the existence of Fox and Falco renders like 50% of the Melee cast unusable. I would consider that to be gamebreaking in much a similar way that Metaknight was in Brawl.

In PM, the weaker characters have become better, so they're no longer nearly as broken. I don't think it has anything to do with their techs being any easier or harder to execute in PM, the cast just got bumped up.

The execution barrier currently in place is not difficult to overcome but the lack of consistency is what keeps the meta interesting and competitive. Otherwise all you have is two characters dash-dancing about the stage until someone over-extends and gets deathtouched. That's what an all yomi PM looks like.

Yeah not really. There's tons of other safe offense other than dash dancing, like projectiles and safe pokes. And secondly, the buffer will not improve your reaction speed (to buffer your inputs, you have to press them earlier than normal, not later), so it's not as though your neutral game will suddenly become frame perfect or anything. Mixups between grabs and shield pressure and such will still be strong, and spacing remains complex even when people play well.

Also, having people battle for space and try to get something started while not overextending themselves is actually generally pretty exciting. That's basically the entire mechanic behind Divekick, and games like Street Fighter 4 start to play like this when the level of play is extremely high.

 

[The_NZA]

What I'm saying is that the existence of Fox and Falco renders like 50% of the Melee cast unusable. I would consider that to be gamebreaking in much a similar way that Metaknight was in Brawl.

In PM, the weaker characters have become better, so they're no longer nearly as broken. I don't think it has anything to do with their techs being any easier or harder to execute in PM, the cast just got bumped up.



Yeah not really. There's tons of other safe offense other than dash dancing, like projectiles and safe pokes. And secondly, the buffer will not improve your reaction speed (to buffer your inputs, you have to press them earlier than normal, not later), so it's not as though your neutral game will suddenly become frame perfect or anything. Mixups between grabs and shield pressure and such will still be strong, and spacing remains complex even when people play well.

Actually, the existence of Sheik's dthrow (an EASY and pervasive technique) is what rendered the melee bottom half unusable. Metaknight was game breaking on a much more fundamental way, in that literally the only characters that could compete had infinites on any grab, or just could not approach ever (Olimar). That is literally the definition of broken. The melee community never had to argue about banning Fox. Meanwhile, Apex 2014 was literally 6 metaknights in top 8.

It honestly feels like you are much more compelled with arguing than reading points and having a valid discourse. The TLDR of what i've been arguing is that making things easier will further break fox, and have an actual impact on the metagame as proven by how two games with characters that have arguably broken toolsets (but different levels of ease of using those toolsets) have led to severely different outcomes.

All you've argued is that somehow Fox/falco have made 50% of melee trash tier unviable and somehow thats due to the result of fox/falco players already exploiting perfectly their most broken. But again, its the pervasiveness and ease of exploiting shiek's grab that gives her 8-2 matchups against all these characters that did that. Actually, when I play melee, I'd much rather play against a fox/falco than a shiek or marth.

 

[Terotrous]

Actually, the existence of Sheik's dthrow (an EASY and pervasive technique) is what rendered the melee bottom half unusable.

It's really both. They don't do any better against the Spacies, and they would still be unusable of Sheik was banned or wasn't in the game.

The melee community never had to argue about banning Fox. Meanwhile, Apex 2014 was literally 6 metaknights in top 8.

Brawl has a smaller top tier, but on the flip side, you could remove just that one character and achieve some degree of balance. In Melee you'd have to remove at least 3 (Jiggs could probably stay).

The TLDR of what i've been arguing is that making things easier will further break fox

I don't necessarily disagree, but if it does then Fox probably needs to be adjusted to be less broken. If multishining is OP, it should probably be weakened, rather than just assuming no one will use it effectively enough to break the game.

 

[GP&B]

Then you understand that implementing this has tremendous consequences that would subsequently need to be altered in response to this change.

AKA not worth the trouble at all.

PM's meta has already been heavily developed around the assumption that Input Assist is never tournament legal (or at least rarely approved). You have not provided enough substantial or even agreeable reasoning as to why PM should toss away almost effectively over a year of technical meta for this.

 

[Terotrous]

Then you understand that implementing this has tremendous consequences that would subsequently need to be altered in response to this change.

AKA not worth the trouble at all.

No, because if those things are already in the game, the problem already exists. It might result in the problems being found faster but they'd have to fix them eventually anyway.


And besides, every update has "tremendous consequences to the metagame", but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't do them. The game isn't done yet, it's reasonable that they might have to make further balance changes.

 

[GP&B]

But most of the inherent risk on those things is what keeps them from being consistently viable choices in the first place. PM really does not need a huge meta shift on top of then figuring out what breaks and what doesn't. It's simply not healthy for the game and will frustrate players as a new influx of changes come through, especially at a point where the PMBR has only been putting in minor changes (outside of a choice few characters + new introductions, many characters received generally small adjustments or none at all).

 

[The_NZA]

It's really both. They don't do any better against the Spacies, and they would still be unusable of Sheik was banned or wasn't in the game.



Brawl has a smaller top tier, but on the flip side, you could remove just that one character and achieve some degree of balance. In Melee you'd have to remove at least 3 (Jiggs could probably stay).



I don't necessarily disagree, but if it does then Fox probably needs to be adjusted to be less broken. If multishining is OP, it should probably be weakened, rather than just assuming no one will use it effectively enough to break the game.

The balance of Melee has very little if anything to do with your argument. Fox and Falco's most technical toolset being broken isn't what broke melee. IT was literally everyone being bad except for 8 characters in their most immutable forms. If what you bleieve is true about PM (that the cast has better tools), then that implies that we can achieve good balance even with fox/falco being intact.

You still haven't adequately proven (IMO) that fox being theoretically broken makes him actually broken. You need to show me one set in over 14 years of videos where fox looked unbeatable by any player.

 

[Soft Serve]

Like I mentioned already, Lucas's ridiculous shield pressure combos were already taken out even though no one had really put them to use in a real match.

I really don't intend on adding anything else to this thread because this argument has been beaten to death already like a year or more ago, and won't be going anywhere anytime soon.

I do want to chime in and at least say this is wrong. While lucas can't do some of the stuff he had in 2.6 and such, his pressure game and conversion game off of someone shielding is stupid. Approaching magnet>jump>footstool>DJC dair strings (infinite when done perfectly) is 100% true pressure/combo on shield. Its painful and completely doable without buffer btw.


/abandon thread

 

[Chevy]

No, because if those things are already in the game, the problem already exists. It might result in the problems being found faster but they'd have to fix them eventually anyway.

Why are you so insistent that people will eventually be able to flawlessly execute everything? It's not like you just wait a few years and suddenly everyone can multi-shine perfectly. The people that can do it practice it a lot, and still can't perform all ATs 100% of the time. The problems aren't going to be found faster, they will never exist because nobody's perfect. I'll eat my words when some kind of flawless monster comes onto the scene and destroys everyone as spacies and Lucas.

Additionally, no flubbed tech means less mistakes which makes for longer neutral games. Neutral isn't exactly the most exciting part of a match.

 

[Terotrous]

But most of the inherent risk on those things is what keeps them from being consistently viable choices in the first place.

There's not a huge amount of risk on most of the ATs. An improperly performed DACUS is just a dash attack. An improper Multishine is just a shine that's slightly off the ground. The riskiest one is wavedash, since you could theoretically get backwards airdodge off the edge, but in most situations you'll just get a triangle jump.

If what you bleieve is true about PM (that the cast has better tools), then that implies that we can achieve good balance even with fox/falco being intact.

I think we probably can, but that's more a point for the Tier List thread than this one.

You still haven't adequately proven (IMO) that fox being theoretically broken makes him actually broken. You need to show me one set in over 14 years of videos where fox looked unbeatable by any player.

No I don't, because the level of Fox play continues to improve over time, even in Melee. Even if people haven't reached his complete ridiculous potential yet, that doesn't mean that they never will.

I do want to chime in and at least say this is wrong. While lucas can't do some of the stuff he had in 2.6 and such, his pressure game and conversion game off of someone shielding is stupid. Approaching magnet>jump>footstool>DJC dair strings (infinite when done perfectly) is 100% true pressure/combo on shield. Its painful and completely doable without buffer btw.

I was referring to the stuff that was gone since 2.6. If some of it still remains then maybe it still needs to be looked at.

Why are you so insistent that people will eventually be able to flawlessly execute everything? It's not like you just wait a few years and suddenly everyone can multi-shine perfectly. The people that can do it practice it a lot, and still can't perform all ATs 100% of the time. The problems aren't going to be found faster, they will never exist because nobody's perfect. I'll eat my words when some kind of flawless monster comes onto the scene and destroys everyone as spacies and Lucas.

There are already people that can multishine fairly consistently, and some of those shield break combos are used in Smash 64 at least. It's only a matter of time.

Additionally, no flubbed tech means less mistakes which makes for longer neutral games. Neutral isn't exactly the most exciting part of a match.

I totally disagree, IMO the neutral game is definitely the most exciting part of a match. That's the part of the game where everyone has all of their tools available to them and it's all on player skill to make something happen. Edgeguarding, while an important part of the game, is not nearly as dynamic.

 

[Chevy]

There are already people that can multishine fairly consistently, and some of those shield break combos are used in Smash 64 at least. It's only a matter of time.

I totally disagree, IMO the neutral game is definitely the most exciting part of a match. That's the part of the game where everyone has all of their tools available to them and it's all on player skill to make something happen. Edgeguarding, while an important part of the game, is not nearly as dynamic.

Fairly consistently. And probably as Falco, who it's much easier for. And I wouldn't say it's only a matter of time. If people haven't perfected it in 14 years, I seriously doubt that it will ever happen. Mistakes will always be a part of play, even at top levels, and reducing that is not good for the game.

And if you prefer the neutral, that's cool, but I think you're in the minority. You don't see people making neutral montage videos.

 

[The_NZA]

I bet in Starcraft 1 (and 2 for that matter), Terrans played perfectly would dominate everyone. But the games are still considered fairly balanced due to the fact that no terran has had the micro potential to make terran unbeatable (though several made it look close).

 

[Scuba Steve]

There's not a huge amount of risk on most of the ATs. An improperly performed DACUS is just a dash attack. An improper Multishine is just a shine that's slightly off the ground. The riskiest one is wavedash, since you could theoretically get backwards airdodge off the edge, but in most situations you'll just get a triangle jump.

Interesting that you mention this now. Seems like earlier in this thread you felt like a slightly imperfect wavedash was a huge error and seriously hindered the person who is wavedashing. I know that I said that I would stop posting in this dumb thread, but I've been spectating this whole time (I love me some internet drama) and I just couldn't let this not get called out.

Also, just stop.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

OMG YOU MADE A THREAD THAT QUESTIONED WHETHER ANYBODY WOULD AGREE WITH A WAVEDASH BUTTON, EVERYBODY SAYS ITS BONKERS

YOU CHANGED THE THREAD TITLE TO SEE IF ANYONE WOULD SUPPORT PER-PLAYER INPUT BUFFERING, NO ONE WILL SUPPORT IT AND ITS STILL BONKERS

WHY DO YOU KEEP ON ARGUING?

for real though you should get the most consistent arguer award, i have nothing else to say here other than this will go NO WHERE, at all

give up

 

[Phaiyte]

Fox isn't broken at all. Don't even try to push that idea lol.

 

[Thor]

I don't believe per-player input buffering is inherently bad. But it would cause a lot of backlash and confusion for tournament organizers, who now have to decide whether it's allowed or not, or just drop Project M because they don't feel like dealing with it.
Whether you like it or not, not everyone will be for the idea. If someone is good without the buffer, they will call the buffer a crutch. This isn't completely unjustified. Whether or not you think that it's a crutch that should exist isn't that relevant in the grand scheme of things.
Most mid to top-level players would not be in favor of it being tournament legal. In they're mind they've already spent the time to learn their timing properly, so why shouldn't everyone else? I can sympathize with this mindset. The game takes time to learn and play, and those that put in the effort are rewarded for it. There is potentially a big debate as to whether the physical aspect of the game is important. I think that it's an inevitable part of the game, so it should just remain as is, whether than try to hide it. And personally, I just prefer no buffer, I would rather have frame perfect control.
This options would inevitably create a divide, as you've already seen in this thread, between those against it and those for it. Divides are not good for the community. Players go back to Melee, some are just disgusted by the arguing and leave. I don't think the draw of new players would compensate for the potential loss of current players.
These reasons are why this idea is not worth the time to implement. I admit that they are taken to the extreme somewhat, but you get the point.

Backlash is an issue. As was backlash by the _____ [West?] Coast when people said "ban items" and gave it a trial run [I never cared which side was which on that debate]. But banning bob-ombs was ultimately a good idea - having buffer may or may not be a good idea, but we won't know if we don't run it. TOs probably have to explicitly allow it, or else we can try this where a big tournament makes a decision so that when locals default to a ruleset (the locals I know default to Apex 2014 [Apex 2013 ruleset last year]) there is not confusion. If some don't like X big tournament ruleset though, this could create issues.

The buffer may partly be a crutch, but it's also in some ways an enhancement/risk (SD risk) - people are talking about broken things but tech skill in all the right places will eventually break things - Ganon on ice or whatever it was called showed that some things that are considered tough can be done rapidly and repeatedly in incredible fashion - I don't doubt much that if he'd put all that time into multishining he'd multishine regularly in tournament (the problem of course being that one often must focus on multiple aspects, but I'd be willing to guess [as another example] if M2K had invested all the time spent CGing Fox/Falco on FD as Marth into multishines he'd do them regularly - he just took a different path). The buffer also allows some who aren't quite there to compete at a better level - it can buff all players (doing silly technical things or doing the technical stuff well) if people will not refuse to embrace what it offers and avoid the few downsides. This is a valid point though, and may hurt PM.

Your choice to not buffer (That was above). Buffering doesn't necessarily take everything to easy mode - it widens some windows for a few things but someone who still can't properly wavedash out of shine to a grab won't all the sudden be waveshining to grab on a whim - they'll just be more consistent in what they want to do if they use it properly. This is a valid point though, as it will eliminate some differences between skill levels.

Divides may not be good but the community often emerges stronger - see items example above (though for PM, I can see why things would be more fragile than Melee). I also prefer Melee to PM so I hadn't really considered the back flow because I'm not as invested in PM, but it's a valid point for sure.

So I don't necessarily know that you are right, but I now have a more comprehensive understanding of the debate now (thanks). I don't feel that some TOs implementing a buffer as a trial period is a bad idea, but I also see why there are good reasons to simply leave it be as is.

In some ways it's like a political debate about the minimum wage or something - each side has all their theoretical reasons ready to go, but the testing is ambiguous and neither side is willing to budge. With that, I'm gonna leave cuz as Soft Serve and others said, it's getting stale. I also think the OP won't give up, despite you laying out fairly reasonable arguments as to why a buffer might be better off left alone. Thanks for your input.

EDIT: As to "neutral montage videos", that's a question of what someone's looking for - if you want the flash, go to the combos, but if you want the place where the huge unseen skill is, where the mental side resides and the tension builds, it's in the neutral game. To paraphrase a golf saying "Combo for show, win the neutral game for dough." If you never lose the neutral game (and so never really enter hitstun), you shouldn't ever lose a match unless a projectile user times you out or KOs you at like 200% but is never able to capitalize. A perfect neutral game is a (nearly) unbeatable player. A perfect combo machine just looks cool and gets wins when they win the neutral game - but the perfect neutral game beats the perfect combo machine, because the combo machine never gets going.

 

[Phaiyte]

I'm all for a buffer trial period, but like I've said before only for the shield button. Every other button you need to do yourself. There really is just /no/ need for it on every button.

 

[Terotrous]

Interesting that you mention this now. Seems like earlier in this thread you felt like a slightly imperfect wavedash was a huge error and seriously hindered the person who is wavedashing.

Missing ATs typically results in wasted potential - lost punish opportunities, lesser combos, weaker pressure, etc. However, that's not quite what I'd call a "risk", since you don't usually get punished hard for it, you just don't get rewarded as much. In that sense I think going for ATs is almost always "worth it", even if you miss it you're usually no worse off than if you hadn't gone for it at all.

That's why I don't think the "ATs are balanced out by the potential for failure" argument really holds water. It's really much more like "ATs are a bonus for people who practice a ton that raise the level of your game". And that's why I'd like to see them be made available to everyone, so everyone's level can be raised.

OMG YOU MADE A THREAD THAT QUESTIONED WHETHER ANYBODY WOULD AGREE WITH A WAVEDASH BUTTON, EVERYBODY SAYS ITS BONKERS

YOU CHANGED THE THREAD TITLE TO SEE IF ANYONE WOULD SUPPORT PER-PLAYER INPUT BUFFERING, NO ONE WILL SUPPORT IT AND ITS STILL BONKERS

Yeah how dare people refine their ideas based on feedback from other people? That's totally cheating! Now we have to come up with new counterarguments and such!

I'm all for a buffer trial period, but like I've said before only for the shield button. Every other button you need to do yourself. There really is just /no/ need for it on every button.

I could maybe see that as a compromise though I feel the distinction isn't really necessary. You're basically just deciding which techniques you should and shouldn't get access to at that point. The main thing making it shield only would do is prevent you from using the buffer to Dacus, which definitely isn't quite as vital overall but I'm not sure I see the point in excluding it.

Oh, and a little fun fact, the game actually already has a 3-frame buffer on tap jump that you can't turn off, which is vital for some ATs. It only works for tap jump and not the jump button though.

 

[Chevy]

Out of curiosity, what is Tap Jump buffer vital for?

 

[Paradoxium]

I think having superior technical skill should give you an advantage, because after all you put in the time and effort to practice it.

 

[Phaiyte]

I could maybe see that as a compromise though I feel the distinction isn't really necessary. You're basically just deciding which techniques you should and shouldn't get access to at that point. The main thing making it shield only would do is prevent you from using the buffer to Dacus, which definitely isn't quite as vital overall but I'm not sure I see the point in excluding it.

There is literally 0 point in any other button.

 

[The_NZA]

Do you even realize what buffering would do to jabs? You are taking out the human element. Arguably the most interesting thing at the highest metagame of Smash is screwing up your opponent by doing something basic to mess up their timing and make them miss windows. Buffering will do far more harm for the game than help.

 

[Terotrous]

Out of curiosity, what is Tap Jump buffer vital for?

Double Jump cancelling for one.

I think having superior technical skill should give you an advantage, because after all you put in the time and effort to practice it.

It probably would still give you a small advantage, because the buffer has a few potential issues associated with it. If you can do all the inputs clean, it's slightly more controlled overall.

This is also only an issue because the buffer wasn't in there from the beginning. If we had the buffer from the start, you wouldn't have had to "waste" time grinding tech skill and could have been practising matchups or whatever instead.

Do you even realize what buffering would do to jabs? You are taking out the human element. Arguably the most interesting thing at the highest metagame of Smash is screwing up your opponent by doing something basic to mess up their timing and make them miss windows. Buffering will do far more harm for the game than help.

Have you ever heard of frame traps? Basically, you perform some sequence of moves that has advantage on shield but isn't a true blockstring, so the opponent has time to press a button, but since you have advantage your normal reaches its active frames first and they get hit (in most cases). Mashing buttons with the buffer is just going to make you super susceptible to this unless you're mashing out a move that starts up in 1 frame or has armor / invincibility.

Note that most characters who have such a normal (Luigi nair for example) typically mash it out during hitstun anyway (so if the opponent's combo ever drops they can counter), so that won't change much.

 

[The_NZA]

Double Jump cancelling for one.



It probably would still give you a small advantage, because the buffer has a few potential issues associated with it. If you can do all the inputs clean, it's slightly more controlled overall.

This is also only an issue because the buffer wasn't in there from the beginning. If we had the buffer from the start, you wouldn't have had to "waste" time grinding tech skill and could have been practising matchups or whatever instead.



Have you ever heard of frame traps? Basically, you perform some sequence of moves that has advantage on shield but isn't a true blockstring, so the opponent has time to press a button, but since you have advantage your normal reaches its active frames first and they get hit (in most cases). Mashing buttons with the buffer is just going to make you super susceptible to this unless you're mashing out a move that starts up in 1 frame or has armor / invincibility.

Note that most characters who have such a normal (Luigi nair for example) typically mash it out during hitstun anyway (so if the opponent's combo ever drops they can counter), so that won't change much.

Frame traps already exist but interruptions are something altogether different that would disappear. I agree that mashing is advantageous sometimes but people don't mash every input because its not built in muscle memory. Things like grabbing are usually only pressed once, and a jab interrupt can really screw an opponents flow up.

EDIT: I'm done with this thread. I don't think I will post again. The idea of buffering every move clearly takes away the human element of the game, and this game is not production--it is art. Feel is an important component, and part of feel is interaction and making your opponent make mistakes. Making mistakes isn't purely strategic error but also mechanical, and I think thats a good thing. Just like I appreciate that music is made through the interaction of people and instruments rather than simply imagination.

If you want a game where it grows or fails on the basis of pure strategy, then I suggest theorycraft fighting all of your friends. It is, when you think about it, the immutable pure way to play smash. I however, embrace the challenge and the growth I feel from mechanical improvement and I think its cool that through training and practice, I not only make smarter decisions, but the whole gamete of decisions available to me branches and opens up.

TL:DR - I think mechanical challenges (within reason) create a more exciting learning curve to a game and should be celebrated rather than opposed. I think the interaction of mechanics unlocks strategic possibilities that getting rid of mechanics never can fill. I don't want to create a void in this game by so drastically changing it in the direction you are imagining.

 

[turtletank]

f you guys stop responding seriously he won't have anyone to ***** to anymore about the game not catering to his lack of tech skill

Obligatory DrinkingFood post.

 

[Terotrous]

Frame traps already exist but interruptions are something altogether different that would disappear. I agree that mashing is advantageous sometimes but people don't mash every input because its not built in muscle memory. Things like grabbing are usually only pressed once, and a jab interrupt can really screw an opponents flow up.

Remember that you've only got 3 frames of buffer, and pretty much any attack has more than 3 frames of hitstun, so this would not actually change with the buffer.

To be honest, the buffer is so short that the only situation I can see where you could press a button, have something unexpected happen, then have an input come out immediately is when you fall off a platform, because you can act immediately in this case. Pretty much anywhere else you'll be stuck in shieldstun or hitstun.

So really I don't see the buffer having much impact besides making some ATs a bit easier to perform.


It's also worth noting that loads of other fighting games if not the majority have some degree of input buffering. Marvel vs Capcom 3 has a fairly substantial buffer, for example, and it hasn't stopped it from being the most popular fighting game on the market.

 

[Scatz]

If you want to play/watch a game that heavily relies on the neutral game, then go play Brawl. Techskill is apparent in every game, and no one will be able to get to 100% consistency on every single techskill because we're human. There's many other factors that play a role in the consistency of our games. Be thankful that the amount of techskill needed to play this isn't as high as some other games.