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Its built around the buffer, dude. That game is all momentum off a single hit, and all the defense is played around the anticipation of the hit. Therefore, buffering really doesn't matter in that game. Goddamnit why am I posting in this junk still.
The saddest part is the people who don't realize that this thread isn't about my specific ability to wavedash. As noted, I can choose to play with the input buffer on, and I don't go to tournaments, so this change wouldn't affect me. It's more about the development of the scene as a whole.
If you like the challenge of learning these techs, why would you suddenly feel like all the time you put in was a waste if the buffer option becomes available? I thought you enjoyed the time you spent practicing up your tech skill?
There's already been several people who were okay with the idea or at least thought it was worth testing out. Just because you complain the loudest doesn't make you "everyone".
Because sometimes the people on the inside are too used to things the way they are to see the greater picture. You know what's a good way to ensure the size of your community never grows? Ignore the opinions of everyone who isn't already a part of it.
Because its unfair when others can obtain you level of skill with half of the time and effort, and it is even more unfair if someone can post on smashboards and get universal buffers for everyone just because they are to bad/lazy to put in the work everyone else did. I like the idea of players having to meet a certain standards to have optimal play, most competitive things have it. And I like the technical standard as it is now.
Please, "everyone" is an exaggeration, I meant to say "almost everyone." Is that better? I bet it makes your ideas much more likable.
You don't go to tournaments? Dear lord here I am actually taking you seriously. You go through all of this trouble talking about the professional level of the game, and you go to the tier list thread writing paragraphs about game balance and you've never actually been to a tournament.
And yet somehow you don't realize that the people who are just strawmanning and not actually responding to any of the ideas that are put forth are the cause of that?
So it's basically what I thought. You don't really enjoy learning the technical side, you just did it because you felt like you had to and you don't want that requirement to be removed because then you'd have wasted your time. I can sympathize, but if the game had the buffer from the start you wouldn't have had to waste your time like that.
You were really proud of the fact that you made a whole topic complaining about my topic, so what does that make you?
It doesn't make a lot of difference honestly. I'm sure I could show up at some random weekly and get like 20th. My opinions wouldn't suddenly become any more credible for it, and neither do yours by virtue of you going to tournaments.
I'd ask you to read the thread first.
20th out of 20, mm me scrub.
Lol keep telling yourself that. I've responded to every sensible argument anyone has made here. You should also probably look in the mirror and see who the real people who won't accept any ground or reconsider their positions to any degree are.
Maybe by a handful of people who don't really contribute to any thread on the forum so it's not a big loss. Anyone who gets upset that people post reasoned opinions about stuff isn't really worth talking to.
As have I provided counter-arguments to all of yours. I gave you a little ground right from the get go and said it wasn't an inherently bad idea, suitable as a casual option. I just believe it has no place in tournament play, and would ultimately be detrimental to the game. At this point it's devolved to just arguing about preference, and the majority of people prefer no buffer. You can't make everyone suddenly start liking your idea by sheer determination.
I still don't see the case for it being detrimental, which is what the entire argument rests upon.
Mostly because the response to this topic has been so polarizing. If everyone just posted well-thought out responses we'd probably have reached a conclusion in a couple pages (probably that it could have some upsides but would need extensive testing before it could be allowed in a competitive environment or something). But the fact that people are so invested in this issue that they feel the need to spam every day and try their hardest to convince people that the discussion has no merit clearly proves that this discussion is actually pretty important.
A few people have, but there's been at least three solid pages of "wavedashing is easy tho", "abandon thread", Drinkingfood's daily spam, and other such nonsense.
First off, don't assume I speak for everyone, or vice versa. I'm not going to sift through all of the pages and find the reasons it would be detrimental for you, they are there and it's your responsibility to read them rather than write them off. And as I said before, even if the buffer drew in more players, there's a serious possibility that it would turn away more than that. The people who are invested in the game are invested in it for a reason. If someone really wanted to play the game competitively, I seriously doubt the lack of an arbitrary buffer would stop them. It would, however, stop some people who already play and enjoy the game from doing so, specifically the Melee crowd, which is a huge part of our playerbase.
Almost everyone has logically argued against your points, it's asinine to ignore that. If there are really that many people who agree with you where are they? As far as I can see, I'm like your 2nd biggest supporter behind @
Thor
, and I pretty vehemently disagree with this fundamentally.
Uh, I don't know why you're assuming I've never played any other game competitively. The effect of execution barriers on this game isn't significantly different from any other game. In every game that has an execution requirement, people make the exact same argument: "The execution barrier is a necessary risk / reward element because in a tense situation you need to have the presence of mind to execute properly." And for every game, the people making that argument are equally ignorant of the existence of other games that lack that execution barrier and how the necessity of remaining calm and not panicking applies to those games just as much. This is why I encourage people to play me at Divekick, for example, so you can see how nerves can still be an issue when you only have 2 buttons to press.
So where are the people using that knowledge to explain why this would not work?
Again, where's the evidence for this? The only thing anyone has suggested was to note that people didn't like Brawl, but all of the complaints about Brawl were either about the removal of combos or the terrible balance. No one ever complained about the fact that Brawl had an input buffer.
You are fine, like I said before if I've been responding to you your posts are probably worth reading. But no it hasn't been almost everyone. Besides you there's also been Teneban, Lordling, Saito, and a couple others, and that's about it. Incidentally I'm not going to name all "good posters", if you made a serious effort to contribute you probably did.Almost everyone has logically argued against your points, it's asinine to ignore that. If there are really that many people who agree with you where are they? As far as I can see, I'm like your 2nd biggest supporter behind @
Post me a list of points and I'll post you a list of counter-points.
Sure, I'll summarize:
I believe pretty much all invested PM players fall in the camp of the latter.
3 frames may not be a lot at first glance, but when we're at a level of complexity where each frame matters, I could see it making a huge difference. Especially since people would be able to consistently perform and chain super high-level techniques almost 100% of the time. This makes those techniques thoroughly unimpressive and potentially de-balances the game. Admittedly, it could be better balanced around these techniques being consistently performable, but that's a lot of effort for a change most aren't in favor of. You argue that the excitement factor is negated by how lame it is for a match to end in an SD, but I disagree. I would rather have strong moments, weak moments, and something to aspire to, versus a more moderated spectrum of performance.
I don't think many people actually want the game to be less accessible, I know I don't. It's more that you take away the sense of accomplishment by making the techniques easier, which could potentially make people lose interest without a next step to aspire for. Accessibility isn't really a factor, because most who want to play at a higher level with advanced techniques will do so regardless of a buffer existing or not. Those at an entry level wouldn't notice the difference. And like I said, I firmly believe that we would lose more players from the buffer than we would gain. I generally believe that we should always strive for something better, but in this case "don't fix what isn't broken" actually applies. People like the game as is, and a change that fundamental would potentially drive people away. Even if it's just "because Melee".
Perhaps most, but PM's playerbase isn't the entire Smash playerbase yet, it could still get bigger.
It seems like the game is currently based around the assumption that high level players can L-cancel, wavedash, waveland, and dacus with near-perfect consistency. The techniques that might be an issue are double jump cancel and multi / waveshine. I do believe however that if those moves are potentially broken when performed perfectly, they should be adjusted anyway, relying on execution barriers for balance typically creates problems eventually as some players master those techniques.
It's definitely a misconception that you can't have strong and weak moments without execution. Players can and will makes mistakes with their spacing, make poor decisions regarding their offensive choices, and make high-risk plays that will or won't pay off. Just look at Brawl, it's an execution-light game and yet there's still a spectrum of performance there.
There's always a next step, even Mew2King and Dr. Peepee are continuing to get better. If anything, removing the execution barriers just makes the next step a little bit more clear. Rather than having to tighten up your inputs by an imperceptible amount, you need to learn the matchups and strategies of strong players better to be able to overcome them. The fact that your losses will largely be based on poor choices that you made rather than executional errors will also help with this, it makes it easier to see where you went wrong and improve.
I honestly don't believe many people would quit. Would you quit? Can anyone in this thread honestly say that they would quit? Do you believe people like Mew2King would quit?
Like I said, it's been like 14 years. If someone was going to master them and have them on command 100% of the time, it would have happened by now. I think it's perfectly reasonable to balance around human ability. Also I never claimed it would help reaction times.
I've watched approximately 3 competitive Brawl sets. It was a lot of turnip throwing, Meta-Knight poking people, and then a lot of running away until the timer ran out. It was horrendously boring. I'm sure that this isn't the standard(at least I hope not) but taking out potential execution flubs only helps to lead to a less punish-heavy game. And I'm not saying that there is isn't room for excitement without execution, just that there is inherently less because of one less evident force acting on the outcome of the game.
Delayed gratification. If something is easy to do, it's not satisfying to accomplish. It's a very visceral feeling when you master certain ATs and it feels good. I have a friend who was excited about learning to short hop the other day. Taking that away detracts a lot from the learning experience in my opinion. And having a tight window on your inputs is going to be important regardless of whether there's an input buffer to help you wavedash, etc. So it's something you should learn anyway.
I believe that Melee players who play PM as a side would potentially quit. A lot of people are very devoted to Melee, and they play PM because it's such a good translation. They don't have to use this hypothetical buffer, but it would certainly cause some to feel as if they are on an uneven playing field, detracting total interest. I would probably not quit, but I wouldn't use the buffer, and it would lower my opinion of the game a bit. Mew2King wouldn't quit because he makes money off of the game and probably enjoys it. I doubt the buffer would put anyone on his level that isn't already there anyway, so it probably wouldn't affect him or most other top players. Some would take issue though, and be vocal about it.
I don't think it would have much of an effect on the global level of play. I know you're sick of hearing it, but it's not hard to wavedash. The applications of these techniques are what is difficult to learn, and the buffer would do nothing for that. The biggest step in advancement is still outplaying your opponent, plain and simple.
I don't think it's gamebreaking, I just feel it takes away some of the skill, accomplishment, and excitement of competitive play. Leading to an overall more shallow experience.
Amsa Yoshi is pretty much an instant counterexample. Yoshi's DJCs have been in the game forever, but this year was the first time anyone really made Yoshi look totally viable. People are now drastically rethinking some matchup charts in this 14-year old game.
I will agree that I find PM more interesting to watch than Brawl, but that's just because there's more viable characters and play styles. The biggest issue with Brawl is that the lack of combos means the balance is shifted pretty heavily towards defense, resulting in a very methodical, slower-paced game. PM restores the combos, so even without the execution barrier it's a much more explosive game.
Beating someone at the mental game is also super satisfying. When you know someone is going to make a certain play, then they do and you counter it perfectly and win, you feel like a total genius. IMO, it's actually much more satisfying to beat someone this way then because they made a mistake.
It's possible, but people say this about every change that PM makes (we can't change Melee character X, all the Melee players will quit!) and yet the game only seems to be getting more popular all the time. I'm sure there are a few players who basically just play PM because the Melee tournament is over and there's nothing better to do, but there's also a lot of people who genuinely like the game for the new things it brings to the table.
If not than people's fears that it would make their hard work trivial are unfounded. However, I do think it would result in a noticeable boost in mid and high level play. Remember, wavedashing isn't the only affected technique, Dacus, jump cancels, and OOS will also become more consistent in the lower levels.
Yoshi hasn't been considered viable, so no-one has played him. And of course people are improving, but that's different than raw, technical prowess. Show me a Fox who can infinitely multi-shine in a tournament match and I'll agree.
I'm not saying everyone would quit, just that the (probably)minor influx would probably be overwritten by the (probably)minor outflux.
You're not going to find someone just sitting there and multishining the whole time because that's not super useful, at best you might see someone showing off multishines before a match, similar to C.Viper players in SF4 doing like a million feints in a row (incidentally, that's a fairly similar kind of motion).
It's not baseless speculation, though, because there are plenty of examples of other low-execution games which are still very competitive. IMO, the part that lacks support is the hypothesis the hypothesis that a large portion of this game's audience plays this game for the technical challenge rather than its other unique features, particularly because there's not a ton of overlap between the Smash community and other fighting games.
Lol I don't even support him that much. I just find it amusing people want to test it (a lot of stuff Terotrous has said is nonsensical or been rebuffed already, though he's been unfairly flamed at least once so I defended him). I honestly don't care either way [especially after your long post with good explanations], I just happen to look like a huge supporter because everyone else hates this idea so much XD.Chevy said:Almost everyone has logically argued against your points, it's asinine to ignore that. If there are really that many people who agree with you where are they? As far as I can see, I'm like your 2nd biggest supporter behind @
