Would you support per-player input buffering?

[Thor]

I wouldn't be opposed to it being implemented though, but only under the condition that it would be illegal in tournaments.

XD The whole debate here is about whether to put it in tournaments or not, so this statement makes no sense. My suggestion was a trial period, in the way that controversial ideas (items ban, Frigate Orpheon, Halberd, Delfino Plaza, other stuff) was tested to see if it made the game healthier, as per TO discretion to participate or not.

The buffer already exists in game, it's just tournaments currently ban it (look for "input assist" in the menu where you can also choose stock counts and team attack and stage select and so on). It's a choice to enable or disable, the point here is that Terotorus wants it on, nearly everyone else says it's a terrible idea, and I don't care either way.

 

[Soft Serve]

YESSSS I FOUND IT http://smashmods.com/forum/threads/buffering-discussion.4414/

This was the discussion that happened pre-2.5 about buffering and arguments for/against it being tourney legal, back before per-player input buffering was taken out in favor of crew battle stock manager.

I guarantee that that thread produced more constructive discussion than this one will

Just posting it because people don't want to let the hread die, so I thought it would be good to see the resoning of why it got removed

 

[Terotrous]

Lol, it's almost totally a different set of posters, but DrinkingFood was trolling that thread in almost the exact same way within the first handful of posts. Some things never change.

Also, it's worth noting that the buffer was significantly more powerful at that time. You could have up to 10 frames, which definitely does allow for some new techniques that you can't do without the buffer. And even then there was still a fair number of people who supported it.

 

[Celestis]

What could you do with buffer that you cannot do without?

 

[Terotrous]

What could you do with buffer that you cannot do without?

As mentioned earlier, BDacus is one. 10 frames of buffer is also probably enough for some basic options selects as well.


I suspect there are probably more applications of BDacus-like movement given the new physics engine for PM. One only wonders what would happen if you BDacused during a wavedash spotdodge.

 

[Saito]

Like said by someone before, it's a great training tool and that's why the option is even there, but in tournament? I'm personally not a fan of it. Having a default frame is better than having something be a player preference. Because really, buffer isn't as insignificant as mapping your buttons on a controller. It does much more than making the player comfortable.

So, if it were up to me, I'd like 0 frames which is the default to begin with. It's a goal for players to work towards and it's fair for everyone.

I like this guy.

 

[Terotrous]

To be honest I think the advantage you get by mapping a footstool button is comparable to the benefit from allowing buffering (assuming mid-level execution skill), depending on the the character.

I'm actually surprised the change to footstooling wasn't more controversial, making it so there's no risk in attempting a footstool is actually a pretty significant buff to their overall usefulness. It's probably because a lot of people just don't realize what you can do with footstools yet.

 

[Saito]

@B.W.

There are characters that are much less technically demanding. If you can't play a technical character then choose a different character, don't complain that you can't use buffer to make the technical character easier. In Melee things were incredibly technical because the only characters that could really win were highly technical characters. P:M makes those less technical characters much easier to use, so you don't need to be Dark or Silent Wolf in order to win anymore, you just need to choose the character that best suits your playstyle and be a smart player.

Aside from the basics (SHFFLing and wavedashing) the game really isn't even so technical that it's a problem, but there are characters that make it seem like the entire game is technical. So really once you get past the basics, all that's left is learning your character specific stuff, and that's not even Smash. That's true for every game you've ever had to pick a character that's unique to other characters whether it be other fighting games, class based shooters or even single player games where characters have different movesets.

Your argument from two years ago is pretty much the same as my argument in this thread.

Man there is a lot of good stuff in there that is applicable in this thread. Im gonna start nabbing some of that stuff.

 

[Saito]

@MookieRah

****. 10/10 for this one.

I'm just going to say that if buffering was allowed in tournament play I would just set my buffer to whatever it was to make it so that shield grabbing fox and falco out of every shine attempt was mind numbingly easy. That said, I'm not sure if it would be enough to counter the fact that it would be much easier to do shine shenanigans, a technical barrier that has, in large part, prevented Fox from being the theoretical ultra character that he could be.

My point with the above paragraph is that there are A LOT of things that would upset the balance of the game, from subtle to not so subtle, if buffering was allowed for competitive play. It's much easier to balance the game around no buffering, and just deal with it.

Also, PM and smash in general has technically demanding characters and characters that aren't very demanding at all, and they come in different varieites. The tech skill for playing Samus is very different than Fox/Falco, and it's even more crazy with Ice Climbers, and then there is CF, which is less about crazy tricks and just the mastery of textbook technical skill. The awesome thing about melee is that if you liked technical stuff, there were several viable characters that offered different flavors of immense technical prowess, and if not you still had a large roster of viable characters that weren't as demanding.

It seems to me by adding buffer in, it removes a lot of tech skill across the board. The super fast fox/falco inputs become easy, the precision timing of Samus gets toned down (although it would more than likely **** it up completely, which is even worse imo), and the timing tricks and desynching with IC's gets jacked up as well. It would even make the less demanding characters even less demanding... which is just... well not good game design.

I'm not going to go into details over what makes something "competitive" or not, and honestly a game is usually as competitive as it has competitors. Even in the most simple of games there will be refinements to be made to improve, and human error will always be prevalent. What I will say is this, smash is great because it's easy to pick up, but hard to master. That holds true with PM. The technical barrier in PM is less than melee, a game that has lasted since 2002... that should say something about it's design. Something about it connected with people, and it has lasting appeal. The jury is still out as to whether or not Brawl could last that long or not, but honestly PM is sorta the best of both worlds, and an excellent bridge between the two games.

All of the above applies to l-cancelling too. It's clearly a mechanic that works, and it is not unlike technical aspects in other fighters (like linking combos). It's not a hard mechanic, but it does demand that you have to spend some time working at it. In reality though, by comparison, it is far less demanding than most other fighting games and their more arbitrary tech barriers. Also, the fact that you can mess with someone's l-canceling by mastering the very, very subtle mechanics of shielding. That may seem small, but that adds A LOT of depth, and a lot of stuff in high level play. That is stuff you didn't even see until many many years after melee's release, yet pretty much every player learned about angling their shields, and using the light shield after playing for several hours.

 

[Terotrous]

There are characters that are much less technically demanding. If you can't play a technical character then choose a different character

Actually, I feel that's kind of self-defeating argument. If there are some low-execution characters with whom you can win even if you don't have any tech skill, what's the point of requiring tech skill for other characters? At this point the execution barrier no longer affects your ability to do well at the game, merely which characters you can use.

"Sorry, you're not good enough to play Falco, go play Link instead" seems like weird game design to me. Even though this is also somewhat true of other fighting games, I don't think it's usually this drastic or deliberate.

I'm just going to say that if buffering was allowed in tournament play I would just set my buffer to whatever it was to make it so that shield grabbing fox and falco out of every shine attempt was mind numbingly easy.

Note that you can't do this with the 3-frame buffer.

I'm not going to go into details over what makes something "competitive" or not, and honestly a game is usually as competitive as it has competitors. Even in the most simple of games there will be refinements to be made to improve, and human error will always be prevalent. What I will say is this, smash is great because it's easy to pick up, but hard to master. That holds true with PM. The technical barrier in PM is less than melee, a game that has lasted since 2002... that should say something about it's design. Something about it connected with people, and it has lasting appeal. The jury is still out as to whether or not Brawl could last that long or not, but honestly PM is sorta the best of both worlds, and an excellent bridge between the two games.

I totally agree with all of this, particularly the part about bridging Melee and Brawl, which is part of why I support the buffer. I also believe that the "easy to learn but hard to master" trait applies even better with the execution barrier removed, because it increases the ease of learning without diminishing the difficulty of mastering the game. The difficulty of mastering any given game is basically just equivalent to how much competitive depth it has (see also Chess and other such zero execution games).

 

[Vashimus]

YESSSS I FOUND IT http://smashmods.com/forum/threads/buffering-discussion.4414/

This was the discussion that happened pre-2.5 about buffering and arguments for/against it being tourney legal, back before per-player input buffering was taken out in favor of crew battle stock manager.

I guarantee that that thread produced more constructive discussion than this one will

Just posting it because people don't want to let the hread die, so I thought it would be good to see the resoning of why it got removed

That thread has shown me how much I miss Devicer. Thanks for reminding me Soft Serve.

 

[Terotrous]

That thread has shown me how much I miss Devicer. Thanks for reminding me Soft Serve.

It's good to know I'll be remembered fondly, considering he made pretty much the same points I made. This is actually much harsher than anything I posted:

The reason I believe buffer should be allowed in competitive play is because it doesn't give players unfair advantage because everyone has access to it. Competitive play is all about establishing fair ground. I have yet to hear a single argument why buffer should be banned in tournaments aside from "it makes playing easier". This seems like a case of Melee elitists forcing preexisting game mechanics into competitive gaming.

 

[Vashimus]

It's good to know I'll be remembered fondly, considering he made pretty much the same points I made. This is actually much harsher than anything I posted:

You're not the P:M boards resident otaku though. :[

 

[Saito]

@Vigilante

I LOVE YOU.

This is not the necessarily the BR view, but my personal view:

The original intent of buffer was for it to be used as a learning tool to eventually lead people to adjust to 0 buffer. I don't think it's good that some players seem to use it as a crutch instead of trying to get better. Lack of reflexes is kind of a strange concept for me to grasp considering I wavedash and L-Cancel with my pinkies. If I can do it, anyone with two usable hands can. My tournaments do not allow buffer and I am very strict on this rule. I won't enforce this view on others, but that is my stance.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually, I feel that's kind of self-defeating argument. If there are some low-execution characters with whom you can win even if you don't have any tech skill, what's the point of requiring tech skill for other characters? At this point the execution barrier no longer affects your ability to do well at the game, merely which characters you can use.

"Sorry, you're not good enough to play Falco, go play Link instead" seems like weird game design to me. Even though this is also somewhat true of other fighting games, I don't think it's usually this drastic or deliberate.

.....what.

A. Sorry, you're not getting the hang of this character.
B. Yeah he is really difficult to play as.
A. Maybe you should try this character instead? He is much easier to learn but has a different playstyle.
B. I'll try him out

A. Wow you did a lot better!
B. Yeah! This character seems to fit me better than the other character
A. Haha, I had a feeling that this character would suit you better.

Diverse characters.
Each appealing to a different type of player.
Not everyone is fit to play every character to their best capabilities.

How is that self defeating or weird game design?

That's probably better game design because every player has a character that goes well with their playstyle instead of being forced to adjust to a character to be competitively viable.

The characters are there though. People can still adjust to them and play as those characters. The only difference is that if they don't want to do that, there are other options avaliable.

 

[Terotrous]

You're not the P:M boards resident otaku though. :[

Hey, I also play JUS, Bleach: The Blade of Fate, Battle Stadium DON, the DBZ BT games, and J-Stars Victory VS. Oh and I have a cute little cat thing as my avatar.

Diverse characters.
Each appealing to a different type of player.
Not everyone is fit to play every character to their best capabilities.

How is that self defeating or weird game design?

Exactly because different characters appeal to different players. Depending on the kind of character that fits your playstyle, the amount of execution skill needed could vary drastically. In particular, in this game it's generally quite a lot easier to play zoners than rushdown characters. This is not a universal trait in Fighting games, for example consider Dhalsim in SF4, who is considered one of the hardest characters to play, while the totally rushdown-oriented Fei Long is one of the easiest.

 

[Saito]

Exactly because different characters appeal to different players. Depending on the kind of character that fits your playstyle, the amount of execution skill needed could vary drastically. In particular, in this game it's generally quite a lot easier to play zoners than rushdown characters.

Okay.

But why does that make it weird or self defeating?

 

[Terotrous]

Okay.

But why does that make it weird or self defeating?

Why should we arbitrarily reward or punish players depending on their preferred playstyle?


One of the objectives of PM is to make every type of character equally viable. It seems to me that this means they should also be equally accessible as well, otherwise certain characters have to work way harder just to get the same level of results.

 

[Saito]

Why should we arbitrarily reward or punish players depending on their preferred playstyle?


One of the objectives of PM is to make every type of character equally viable. It seems to me that this means they should also be equally accessible as well, otherwise certain characters have to work way harder just to get the same level of results.

The tools that make these characters diverse and viable require a different degree of technical proficiency. You can't make them equally accessible unless you remove the diversity.

 

[Celestis]

Why should we arbitrarily reward or punish players depending on their preferred playstyle?


One of the objectives of PM is to make every type of character equally viable. It seems to me that this means they should also be equally accessible as well, otherwise certain characters have to work way harder just to get the same level of results.

Then every character would be the same and they would be boring. Smash is great cause of how different a character can be. If they all played the same, then it would be like that DBZ Ultimate Tenkaichi. And that would be.. a disaster.

 

[Terotrous]

The tools that make these characters diverse and viable require a different degree of technical proficiency. You can't make them equally accessible unless you remove the diversity.

You can come pretty close using the buffer though, and it doesn't remove the character diversity at all.

Then every character would be the same and they would be boring. Smash is great cause of how different a character can be. If they all played the same, then it would be like that DBZ Ultimate Tenkaichi. And that would be.. a disaster.

Actually, I really enjoy DBZ BT2 / 3 / Raging Blast, despite the extreme degree of character sameness I think it captures the feel of a DBZ battle really well. J-Stars Victory Vs actually does a decent job of being a game with similar gameplay where each character plays pretty differently.

Of course, that really has nothing to do with Smash Bros, they play nothing alike.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

You will not be remembered in the fashion you'd like to be, that's if you are even remembered at all.

 

[SpiderMad]

There's also another smaller smashmod thread on buffer http://www.smashmods.com/forum/threads/is-buffer-present-in-the-demo.1958/ Plum has a good post in it

I wouldn't be opposed to it being implemented though, but only under the condition that it would be illegal in tournaments. As Terotrous said, the buffer is already there it just effects everyone across the board if turned on. Why not give players more options and allow it to be turned on for specific ports or name tags? The only reason I could see this never happening though is because the PMBR have far more important things to be doing with their time.

Yes, it should be illegal in tournament use. Yes, it should be able to be customized: which it was (and still is in the current Wifi/Replay codeset).

Spoiler

In Brawl+ (an old Brawl mod that inspired Project M) they developed a code that replaced Handicap with Buffer in the options screen, allowing you to set yourself 0-10 frames of Buffer. Project M kept use of this code until I think 2.1 or so when they developed Crew Mode which also used Handicap. So they couldn't have both, and went with Crew Mode over Buffer for the handicap replacement (and created Input Assist replacing the HUD toggle option I think). They kept Buffer for the Replay/Wifi version (which has the light press air dodge http://smashboards.com/threads/the-hall-of-fame-squirtle-video-thread.332078/page-4#post-16624768 ), since 1 frame or so can help with the lag without really changing much as well as newer players and Brawl players generally gearing towards Wifi who would enjoy the option (I also believe that Brawl had such a high buffer not only to make it easier to control for casuals while also trying to lower the tech ceiling of competitive players, but to make Wifi more bearable).

I would have linked this page but it's dead http://www.smashmods.com/forum/page/bpwhatisbuffer.html , though possibly alive on webarchive.. yep
http://web.archive.org/web/20140322104744/http://www.smashmods.com/forum/page/bpwhatisbuffer.html

Wifi is ending though, so hopefully they still keep the custom buffer in the Replay version instead of Crewmode. Like you mentioned, Input Assist sucks because it forces both players to use the 3 frames of buffer and unable to be lowered. Three frames was a keen amount to pick for the people who would enjoy buffer (Newcomers/Brawlers), to ease themselves into the game and enjoy what they might not be able to perform yet but aim for while they get more technical. Problem is they don't get the necessary 2 or 1 frame steps to ween down to. Going from 3 frames to none is a blunt step. If the PMBR was able to code a way to get Custom Buffer available while still having Crew Mode (so they could ditch the inferior Input Assist), I think they would do it: though some of them would be against it since they don't want the problem of TOs/people starting to allow/use it in tournament.

I'd argue the thing that most people don't know they're relatively not good at is very early aerials. Marth's SH Bair Fair(/Up-air/Dair), Diddy's SH Fair/Dair WL, Squirtle's Nair WL/SH Double Aerials (Double Fair, Fair Up-air)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B9JGwuMhgk#t=53

For non-tournament use I enjoy using 1 frame, primarily for help with Early aerials (added frame of leniency to buffer the aerial during jumpsquat) making some of the 1 frame lenient hard ones thus 2 frames, making them viable to attempt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuT553KbVKA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knNK-fLBNps

Can't defend it too much for tournament though, any amount of buffer is an advantage (that might warrant competitive players to use it than not to).

Melee also has a 2 or 3 frame buffer for Jump when you use Tap jump (using the Control stick) which surprised me

Note that you can't do this with the 3-frame buffer.

To be honest I think the advantage you get by mapping a footstool button is comparable to the benefit from allowing buffering (assuming mid-level execution skill), depending on the the character.

3 frames is actually quite potent, just about as much as higher amounts if not more due to lowering the negative side effects (and even if you're versed to not make those unintended effects, that right there puts a limit on certain sequences like ones concerning dash dance maneuvers ). Random fact a lot of Brawl special cancels that were fast enough (Lucario's aura cancel) always buffered the air dodge after the cancel. Listed here as SCAC http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-lab-techs-and-missed-techs-everything-you-need-to-know-added.286663/#post-11200566
A proficient player only needs 2 or 3 frames to get things constantly frame perfect, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJDkfjFr1F0#t=141 this SH Bair DJ Bair Nair is VERY hard to attempt with none, but with 2 frames of buffer it's somewhat easy. Given your timing is already decent like mine. The thing I realized lately, is that MK can actually turn into Brawl MK with a few frames of buffer: I'll pry release a video on it more than just this one which didn't do a great job of demonstrating it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B9JGwuMhgk


The funny thing about all this is that we're going to be forced back into buffer with Smash 4 lol. I bet they went with less than 10 frames this time around though.

 

[Saito]

You can come pretty close using the buffer though, and it doesn't remove the character diversity at all.

Buffer can't make your fingers move any faster.

Actually, I really enjoy DBZ BT2 / 3 / Raging Blast, despite the extreme degree of character sameness I think it captures the feel of a DBZ battle really well. J-Stars Victory Vs actually does a decent job of being a game with similar gameplay where each character plays pretty differently.

Of course, that really has nothing to do with Smash Bros, they play nothing alike.

Not the same game.

Ultimate Tenkaichi plays nothing like those three games.

While those three games may have similarities across the board, the characters all still have different attack styles, attack speed, and blasts which change up each character. Some even are different type like Android and what not.

Ultimate Tenkaichi has characters that seem different but are all fundamentally the same. When you hit once, you will end up going into a sort of paper rock scissors scenario.

The most differences the characters have is the range of their attack to hit the opponent and how different their scenes look.

Even Battle of Z has more diversity than Ultimate Tenkaichi

 

[Terotrous]

Lots of good info

This is basically the kind of stuff I was looking for in this topic, someone who has actually tested it out and has info on what you can and can't do with it. I also appreciate having the videos for illustrative purposes. That being said, I'm not seeing anything here that really screams "broken". Yes, it might make MK a little more dangerous, but as you posted, it also benefits Ike and Diddy, and no doubt plenty of other characters too. I'm also not seeing anything here that screams "broken", that Diddy Bair combo is probably escapable via DI and seems to require an extremely deep first hit, and Metaknight's frames are generally less advantageous and some tricks like Infinite Dimensional Cape are gone so he's not quite the monster he once was.

There's also another smaller smashmod thread on buffer http://www.smashmods.com/forum/threads/is-buffer-present-in-the-demo.1958/ Plum has a good post in it

To be honest, I actually think Plum summed up my thoughts on removing / disallowing the buffer: "The impact this has in a tournament setting is that it creates a level of artificial technical skill". Keep in mind that the buffer was in the original game, it was specifically removed by the PM team to try to make the game less accessible and give the longtime Melee vets an advantage that they might not have had with more lenient inputs.

The funny thing about all this is that we're going to be forced back into buffer with Smash 4 lol. I bet they went with less than 10 frames this time around though.

This is part of why I support it coming back. Unless you're skipping Smash 4, you're going to have to use the buffer anyway. All this talk of how the buffer ruins competitive play and completely devalues skill are going to sound even more absurd when everyone is caught up in Smash 4 fever a few months from now.

Buffer can't make your fingers move any faster.

Yeah, that's an important point that I've made a couple times. Buffer won't help you defend yourself against mixups and the like (which is important for every character), so it doesn't dumb down the mental side of the game. In fact, the buffer requires quicker fingers (since you have to press your inputs earlier than normal). It basically just simplifies the timing on certain actions, reducing the need for muscle memory.

Not the same game.

Ultimate Tenkaichi plays nothing like those three games.

While those three games may have similarities across the board, the characters all still have different attack styles, attack speed, and blasts which change up each character. Some even are different type like Android and what not.

Ultimate Tenkaichi has characters that seem different but are all fundamentally the same. When you hit once, you will end up going into a sort of paper rock scissors scenario.

The most differences the characters have is the range of their attack to hit the opponent and how different their scenes look.

Even Battle of Z has more diversity than Ultimate Tenkaichi

Oh, I know, there's a reason I own all of the other games except Ultimate Tenkaichi. I just wasn't sure how much experience you had with the series, and the complaint that the characters are samey really can apply to all of the games to some degree.