Would you support per-player input buffering?

[Terotrous]

It has been pointed out that the concept of using a button to wavedash has other, impactical consequences. However, the technical barrier presented by wavedashing can also be somewhat mitigating by allowing buffered inputs, which lets you input the shield button early and still get an optimal wavedash. This feature already exists in the game under Input Assistance in the options, but it's currently a global setting, either everyone has to use it, or no one can use it, which is impractical as some people don't like it and thus no one gets to use it.

I think the option should be moved to the profile set-up page, so everyone has the option of using it or not. This in no way removes the skill of playing the game well as you still need to know when and how to utilize advanced techniques, it just makes them available for everyone to use.

 

[Chevy]

I think the fact that you wouldn't be able to triangle jump and waveland would make this button seem very "dirty". Not as in broken, but just something that shouldn't be there, because it just doesn't fit in nicely design-wise. Wavedashing is already implemented as simply as possible given all of the variance with jump height, angle, and distance. And as far as an execution barrier goes, it's not necessary to wavedash on a lower level, and higher level play will always have execution barriers anyway. And once you get the hang of multiple characters, the timing isn't really an issue. You just kinda switch modes.

 

[Terotrous]

and higher level play will always have execution barriers anyway.

There's definitely degrees of it, though. For example, Capcom's VS series has some degree of input buffering, you can press inputs a few frames early and they'll come out on the first possible frame. Street Fighter 4 does not have this, so some combos require frame-specific timing. Is there really any solid reason for SF4 not to allow buffering other than to exclude people who don't spend their whole lives practicing one frame links from reaching a high level of play?


I can definitely see how the suggested mechanic seems like a bit of a workaround, but that's kind of inevitable when you have mechanics that weren't originally intended by the developers (even if they knew wavedashing existed, it's clear they never intended it to be central to the game). I still think it's a workaround that would make the game better.

 

[Chevy]

I don't play any other fighting games, so I can't vouch much, but the input buffer in Brawl has caused me to do moves unintentionally. Maybe that's just me. At least in Smash if you can't wave-dash consistently, you probably lack other things inherent to high-level play anyway.
I like wavedashing where it is, and I think the macro idea is unnecessary. Most people wouldn't map it because of aforementioned variabilities inherent in the mechanic, and limited controller space. There's no explicit reason for it not to exist though, other than OCD "impure" impulses.

 

[Strong Badam]

Wavedash button isn't really possible. What makes Wavedash such an interesting mechanic is that it... isn't a mechanic. Unlike L-cancel or teching or etc., wavedashing requires the control stick being pointed in a specific direction. I don't know how you would aim the wavedash if it were on a button.
It'd also be weird if a button just made you jump and press air dodge 3-7 frames later depending on character. Ugh that'd be so weird.

 

[The_NZA]

Wavedash button isn't really possible. What makes Wavedash such an interesting mechanic is that it... isn't a mechanic. Unlike L-cancel or teching or etc., wavedashing requires the control stick being pointed in a specific direction. I don't know how you would aim the wavedash if it were on a button.
It'd also be weird if a button just made you jump and press air dodge 3-7 frames later depending on character. Ugh that'd be so weird.

theoretically, it could be a button that could operate like a tilt or a hold in order to change up wavedash distances. But yeah, its sort of a meaningless hypothetical.

 

[Deleted member]

Wavedash button isn't really possible.

what about a shield drop short-cut? melee-style shield-drop doesn't really work in PM.

 

[The_NZA]

what about a shield drop short-cut? melee-style shield-drop doesn't really work in PM.

Axe's most definitely still works. He (and I believe most players) shield tilt to a side, and then slide it down one diagonal notch.

 

[Terotrous]

Most people wouldn't map it because of aforementioned variabilities inherent in the mechanic, and limited controller space.

Well, you do get two jump buttons, if you're not using the footstool button you could easily map it to one of those.

Also, even the pros screw up wavedash on very rare occasions. You still see an accidental airdodge off the edge SD in maybe 1 out of every 20 matches. I suspect a lot of people would take the button just to ensure that this never happens, as it usually costs you the game when it does.

This is also part of why I want execution barriers minimized / eliminated, nothing is less hype than seeing an execution error decide a match.

Wavedash button isn't really possible. What makes Wavedash such an interesting mechanic is that it... isn't a mechanic. Unlike L-cancel or teching or etc., wavedashing requires the control stick being pointed in a specific direction. I don't know how you would aim the wavedash if it were on a button.

It'd have to automatically air dodge down + the direction on the stick (so if stick is forward, air dodge down forward), like I mentioned in the OP. The Macro would have to consider the current stick direction when it came time to do the dodge.


The only thing I can see that would be weird is if you activated it in the air, then it'd presumably cause an immediate double jump + airdodge, assuming you had a dodge left. I don't know if it'd be possible enough to make it smart enough to do nothing if you were in the air.

 

[MonkUnit]

What about the fact that you can change the length of your wavedash based on how far the stick rotated? Also, sometimes you can and want to waveland without using a double jump if you do not have to. e.g., using grounded jump to jump through a platform and then wavelanding off of it.

 

[Paradoxium]

I like the technical aspects of the game, the fact that you have to practice certain techniques 50 times before you get it down. I actually like the technical barriers of the game, in fact the technical barriers are what got me to play this game in the first place.

 

[Mister the Wizard]

I agree with everyone else, especially @ Paradoxium . I think the really nitty gritty technical skills you have to really practice and work for make the game really fun and rewarding. I think a wavedash button might be a bit too easy, and I think it would really take the fun out of it. It's an awesome feeling when you get that perfect wavedash back to forward smash on Falco, or when you wavedash dance with Luigi and totally screw the opponent up. and there's nothing like a good old "ramen noodles". In addition, I think you're making wavedashing sound harder than it really is. I am still extremely new, and I've already got the hang of it. One thing I would vouch for is a short hop button. I don't have a problem with short hopping myself, but sometimes in the heat of a match your adrenaline gets to you and you mess up an edge guard or something by full hopping. I actually think that that could possibly be implemented as well.
tl;dr No I don't think a wavedash button should be a thing, but a short hop button would be cool.

 

[Terotrous]

I like the technical aspects of the game, the fact that you have to practice certain techniques 50 times before you get it down. I actually like the technical barriers of the game, in fact the technical barriers are what got me to play this game in the first place.

I find it very weird that someone who wants a high-execution game would play Smash and not, say, Guilty Gear.

I also find execution barriers to be a bad mechanic in pretty much every game that has them. The rewarding aspects of all fighting games are really spacing, footsies, and reads, and all execution barriers do is prevent newcomers or casual players from experiencing this part of the game to its fullest. TBQH, there's no other genre where people tolerate (or god forbid praise) a game where it's difficult to get the character to do precisely what you want them to.


Also note that just because you have a wavedash button doesn't mean you instantly know the best times to use it. That's really where the skill in the game comes in.

 

[Terotrous]

What about the fact that you can change the length of your wavedash based on how far the stick rotated?

That could still be possible depending on how far you have the stick tilted. Less tilt = less distance.

Also, sometimes you can and want to waveland without using a double jump if you do not have to. e.g., using grounded jump to jump through a platform and then wavelanding off of it.

You'd have to do this normally, there's no way to make the button do it for you.

 

[SixSaw]

Also, even the pros screw up wavedash on very rare occasions. You still see an accidental airdodge off the edge SD

That usually happens because they accidentally hold the stick horizontally, not because they necessarily missed the wavedash inputs. A wavedash button would not prevent that.


The way I imagine this working is the "wavedash" button being a jump input + shield inputs every frame for the next 9 frames (so that it would work for every character). You could also have it wait 3 frames after the jump input before sending shield inputs for 6 frames since no character has a jumpsquat less than 3 frames, although that would result in a janky delayed airdodge if pressed in the air.

One issue with this however is that, to my understanding, the game will not register shield inputs on directly subsequent frames as separate presses but instead as a held button, which means it wouldn't work for characters whose jumpsquat is longer than the delay before the first shield input is sent. To get around this, you'd have to have shield inputs be sent on every other frame, with 1 frame of waiting between them. The consequence of that would obviously be that characters with even frame jumpsquats (assuming the shield inputs happened on 4, 6, etc since that would serve a greater majority of the cast) would be stuck with a less-than-frame-perfect wavedash using the wavedash button which would sort of defeat the point.

I'm not totally opposed to the idea tbh if only because the current c-stick shows that macro inputs have a lot of potential for janky new AT applications, but I doubt that's a position the PMBR shares, nor should they really

Seriously though: it's fun to speculate, but this will never, ever happen.

 

[Terotrous]

That usually happens because they accidentally hold the stick horizontally, not because they necessarily missed the wavedash inputs. A wavedash button would not prevent that.

It would though. If you have your back to the edge and hit the wavedash button while holding back on the stick, you'll get a backwards wavedash, because the button also sends the down input. So even though you're holding back, it actually reads it as downback, preventing the SD.

The way I imagine this working is the "wavedash" button being a jump input + shield inputs every frame for the next 9 frames

That could slightly work (though it has that issue you mentioned), I think the better idea is that it looks up your character's jumpsquat timing from some kind of table and then sends the input on the correct frame.


Also, it just occured to me that you could use this to triangle jump, just hit the jump button 1-2 frames before the wavedash button. Not really an intended feature, but it would work, since you're now getting the airdodge a couple frames late.

 

[Paradoxium]

I find it very weird that someone who wants a high-execution game would play Smash and not, say, Guilty Gear.

I also find execution barriers to be a bad mechanic in pretty much every game that has them. The rewarding aspects of all fighting games are really spacing, footsies, and reads, and all execution barriers do is prevent newcomers or casual players from experiencing this part of the game to its fullest. TBQH, there's no other genre where people tolerate (or god forbid praise) a game where it's difficult to get the character to do precisely what you want them to.


Also note that just because you have a wavedash button doesn't mean you instantly know the best times to use it. That's really where the skill in the game comes in.

Guilty Gear?
Pfffffffffffffftt, I played Starcraft 2 bro, I doubt you can touch my 200+ apm combined with my macro and micro skills. Sc2 has a huge barriar, not just a technical barrier but a huge mechanical barrier as well. Tbh beginners have to do a LOT of studying and practice to even get decent at that game. It takes a ton of work. It is often refered to as the most difficult game, and a lot of players have pride in being to play this game at the highest level. They have pride in the fact that few people can actually play the game at that level. Although smash isnt as extreme as Starcraft 2, players still have pride in their level of technical skill. Logging in hours to master these techs is a huge accomplishment to newcomers, and if they aren't willing to put in the time and effort to learn these things they do not belong in a competitive environment.

And although I usually agree with making things slightly easier to help beginners, I am heavily against macros. Imo macros are for the lazy.

 

[Mansta]

ಠ_ಠ Wave dashing is so hard guys, we need a button for it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

@ Mansta you have the best title



Also this thread is stupid and has come up several times now and the concept doesn't even make sense. I really don't even feel like justifying that statement because I've done it the last two times this kind of thing came up. Stop being lazy and learn the tech.

 

[Terotrous]

I actually can do the tech fairly well, but it feels like a bad mechanic to me. From a game design perspective it's a very illogical sequence of steps to perform what is effectively a forward or backwards quickstep.

It's pretty clear it was an unintended technique and generally clashes with the design of the rest of the game, which is why it was taken out of the official smash games after it was discovered. If it's going to be reinstated I feel that it should somehow be made to seem more intentional, kind of like how there's a white flash to indicate a successful L-cancel now.

ಠ_ಠ Wave dashing is so hard guys, we need a button for it.

Doing a smash attack is so hard guys, we need a separate stick for it.

Although smash isnt as extreme as Starcraft 2, players still have pride in their level of technical skill.

Which is pretty silly TBQH. It's been said and demonstrated a million times that tech skill is a very distant second place in importance to fighting game fundamentals (in both this game and most other games). Players like Pink Fresh, who literally didn't know how to DI at all until about a month ago are still able to perform very well based on movement / awareness alone.

I used to be somewhat in favour of complex combos and all that jazz (basically Capcom-style fighting game design), but as time has gone on I've played a lot of other fighting games that ditch the execution barriers and the result is generally a much better game overall, at all levels of play. Smash Bros is actually a product of that school of thought, which is why I think some of the ATs in this game clash with the core design principles so much.

 

[Terotrous]

Anyway, I suppose you could argue that the input assistance feature renders this somewhat trivial, though it has a host of other issues (for one thing, it makes teching trivially easy to do, and that's something you don't want to be a complete cinch in every case), and it's not something that can be enabled on a per-player basis.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

No. I would much rather coding time be spent on changes that actually matter; such as balance changes, new characters, removal of bugs, and new modes.

 

[Terotrous]

Considering PM contains like a hundred different easter eggs, I think there's enough coding time to get it done if they wanted to.

Anyway, I suppose an alternative is to allow enabling of buffering per player, ala the tap jump button, though I think people would actually probably like this even less.

 

[Giygacoal]

It's hard for me to see the urgency for a wavedash macro when this game is still stuck with l-canceling.

 

[TreK]

What would actually be cool is for the C stick to have a "shield" macro. It could be used to angle your shield, wavedash without losing the analogous property of it, and shield drop in example.
However, I doubt it would work because of the way Brawl takes inputs from the C stick.

 

[Chevy]

It would though. If you have your back to the edge and hit the wavedash button while holding back on the stick, you'll get a backwards wavedash, because the button also sends the down input. So even though you're holding back, it actually reads it as downback, preventing the SD.

Now you have to factor in vector math to make this work? And even assuming that that was implemented, near perfect horizontal wavedashes would now require you to rotate the stick UP and in the direction. Too janky.

And personally I think cool plays are exciting partially because of the execution barrier. Something isn't impressive if anyone can do it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Now you have to factor in vector math to make this work? And even assuming that that was implemented, near perfect horizontal wavedashes would now require you to rotate the stick UP and in the direction. Too janky.

And personally I think cool plays are exciting partially because of the execution barrier. Something isn't impressive if anyone can do it.

There are no perfect horizontal wavedashes.
There are perfect horizontal wavelands though, in specific cases for specific characters.

 

[Chevy]

There are no perfect horizontal wavedashes.
There are perfect horizontal wavelands though, in specific cases for specific characters.

NEAR perfect. As in the best possible distance. I am aware of perfect horizontal wavelands.

 

[Scuba Steve]

People want so much hand-holding on stuff that really isn't that difficult. Wavedashing isn't even hard. I've seriously seen people do it on their second try after I explain to them what it is. The most difficult thing when you first start wavedashing is learning to use it in situations where you'll actually benefit from wavedashing, which a wavedashing button won't even help.

 

[Terotrous]

It's hard for me to see the urgency for a wavedash macro when this game is still stuck with l-canceling.

L cancelling has a much larger window though, you've got like 7 frames, whereas a perfect wavedash only has 1 or 2 frames.

I also don't believe anyone got down consistent 2-frame timing within a few minutes. That takes practice.

 

[Celestis]

Adding a button that wavedashed for you takes away all the varying lengths and distances of each wave dash. Luigi and Icy players especially would like to have control over how far they wavedash.

I also don't see why people want to break down the technical level of the game so much. Being good at the game and possessing tech skill feels so rewarding. This would kill that feeling. Blah. Some players say its to easy to be good at PM as it is. I never want to see this.

 

[Terotrous]

I also don't see why people want to break down the technical level of the game so much. Being good at the game and possessing tech skill feels so rewarding. This would kill that feeling. Blah. Some players say its to easy to be good at PM as it is. I never want to see this.

Pfft, you're probably one of those lame-os who plays this game with the gamecube controller. Real pros play with the sideways Wiimote, and we do it one-handed, because we love the challenge. It requires so much more tech skill to wavedash by bashing the controller against your face. Hardcore!


Seriously, complaining that the control options are too convenient is pretty much the dumbest thing possible. You never see pro Street Fighter players complaining about the existence of the triple punch button or something. "But it takes away the thrill of hitting all 3 buttons at once!"

 

[DrinkingFood]

Clearly the game should automatically adjust the different angle you wavedash at based on reading your mind. Because like, forget that you should have to put in the work of angling the stick right! That's like asking me to press the jump and air dodge buttons with the right timing! And the game should also automatically know when I want to wavedash or waveland. Since this button would be so needlessly specific and terribly designed if it could support only one iteration of wave-tech, it would be well worth the developers' time to add in wavelanding functionality.

 

[Terotrous]

It honestly wouldn't be hard to have the game choose the distance of the wavedash based on how far you tilt the stick, but feel free to assume that it's merely a technical hurdle that prevents this from working. That suggests that you'd be all for it if it could be done.

 

[Scuba Steve]

This idea is dumb.

 

[DrinkingFood]

It honestly wouldn't be hard to have the game choose the distance of the wavedash based on how far you tilt the stick, but feel free to assume that it's merely a technical hurdle that prevents this from working. That suggests that you'd be all for it if it could be done.

I was talking about wavelanding as well, when you don't want to jump, this button would be a waste of time if it couldn't support all iterations of wave-tech. So this button should have integrated support for knowing when you want to just waveland and when you want to DJ waveland.

 

[Terotrous]

Except, you know, Wavedashing and Wavelanding have totally different applications and uses and don't necessarily have to be combined.

 

[DrinkingFood]

But they aren't totally different at all. They all function on using an air dodge into the ground to preserve momentum for spacing purposes. Literally the only difference is the timing between the jump and the airdodge. There's even a gradient in between where you have wavedashes, triangle jumps, then waveland onto platforms, then empty hops into waveland.

 

[Terotrous]

Yes but wavedash is special because it lets you convert a jump into ground momentum, which is really important in this game because there's lots of situations where you don't have all of your tools at your disposal, but you virtually always have the ability to jump.

Ie, WD OOS, WD out of run, WD out of jump cancel, etc.

 

[DrinkingFood]

That applies to waveland too genius
You have to be in the air to waveland, so any time you can jump you can waveland onto a platform. Or empty hop into a waveland. Or triangle jump so you get the invinc.
Why make a wavedash button when you can make a button that does all of these?