Q&A "Worthy Opponents Indeed!" - Match-up Q&A Thread

[TheHypnotoad]

Fine, I'll change it back to what I had originally.

 

[Silverfox117]

Okay, I've been thinking about making a complete matchup list for a while, but I've been too lazy to do it. I've finally gotten over that laziness. Note that all these matchups assume that there are no customs on. The characters aren't in any particular order in each tier unless stated.

Without further ado, here it is:

Hypnotoad's List of Opinions Which Are Superior to Your Opinions

+3
Robin's best matchup. Ganondorf is the only character whose speed is comparable to Robin's, and who also has no projectiles. Robin can easily zone him out with Arcfire, and due to his heaviness, he is complete combo bait.
Slow, heavy, no projectile, combo bait.
Slow, heavy, no projectile, combo bait.
Slow, heavy, no projectile, combo bait.

+2
He would be a +3 if not for the fact that he has a spammable projectile to mess with your Thunder charging, and he has excellent recovery so he is difficult to gimp. His hammer also has very long range.
He would also be +3, but the long range from his sword and semi-decent speed make him a +2 in my opinion.
Although Marth is quite fast and is not heavy, there is very little he can actually do to Robin. His lack of projectiles means you can simply zone him out with Arcfire, and the massive nerf to his sword range that he received means that you can challenge him with your own sword.
Everything I just said about Marth also applies to Lucina.

+1
Slow, super easy to KO due to weight, doesn't have any projectiles, easily gimpable due to lack of an up B. However, she has a small model and cannot be comboed.
The matchup is similar to Marth. However, his sword has longer range, and he can turn into a mini-Sonic with the Monado Arts. There is a complete analysis of this matchup in the first post in the thread.
Large model, fairly easy to combo, her only projectile is pathetic. Watch out for the reflector.
Similar to Marth. However, he does have a projectile, albeit a bad one.

0
Although he has a reflector and a projectile, he also has abysmal recovery.
Has a decent projectile and a good aerial game, but isn't that big of a problem for Robin.
Has a non-spammable projectile and a reflector.
Similar to Jigglypuff, but is faster, stronger, has better recovery, and has a pseudo-projectile from Final Cutter.
Great aerial game, but no projectile.
This is an interesting matchup. At first, you might think Rosalina wins, because she can absorb your projectiles with down B, and Luma can sponge everything but Thoron. However, she is also light and easy to KO.
Has many projectiles, all of which are very slow and easy to shield.
Has a spammable projectile, but can be juggled due to the Levin Sword outranging her aerials.
Has projectiles, but is also slow and easy to combo.

-1
Fast, strong, can combo Robin, has a reflector, can mess with your recovery with the Cape and F.L.U.D.D., and unlike Dr. Mario his recovery isn't garbage.
Spammable projectile, can combo easily, great recovery.
Spammable projectile, good recovery, hard to punish.
Fast, spammable projectile, can combo, has multiple methods for recovery.
Fast, excellent recovery, can combo.
Spammable projectile, reflector, good recovery.
Fast, small, spammable projectile, can combo, excellent recovery.
Very fast, can combo.
Small, amazing aerial game, very good recovery, can absorb your projectiles.
Very spammable projectile, excellent recovery, reflector.
Everything said about Pit also applies to Dark Pit.
I have very little experience with this matchup, but from what I can tell, he has spammable projectiles, a good aerial game, and is small.
Spammable projectile, very fast.
Spammable projectiles.
Spammable projectiles.
Fast, can combo.

-2
Many, many, MANY spammable projectiles.
Same thing as Link, except now he's faster and smaller.
Once again, many spammable projectiles.
Spammable projectile, very fast, excellent recovery.
Small, amazing aerial game, can combo, can absorb your projectiles. Similar to Rosalina, except smaller and harder to combo.
Even better at zoning than you are, the Pikmin are super spammable and super annoying. Is also small and has very good reach with his aerials.
Spammable projectiles, can combo, has a reflector.
Spammable projectiles, small, can absorb your projectiles and throw them back at you.
This one might be somewhat controversial. While he doesn't have any projectiles, he also happens to be EXTREMELY fast and hard to punish.

-3
HOO HAH. Is impossible to punish, bananas can ruin your day, good recovery, small, amazing aerial game. Robin's fourth worst matchup.
Nairo thinks this is Robin's worst matchup, I think it's the third worst. Sheik has a spammable projectile which is also one of the fastest projectiles in the game. She is a very fast character, she can combo you, she has amazing recovery, she is impossible to punish.
Robin's second worst matchup. Has a spammable projectile, although luckily it won't interrupt a Thunder charge. Is very fast, can combo, has a reflector, can jab lock, is difficult to punish. Not a fun matchup.
Here it is, the character everyone loves to hate, and also Robin's number one worst matchup. Zareidriel thinks this matchup isn't that bad, but I have to disagree. He may not have a projectile, but he does have one thing that Robin absolutely hates dealing with: he's fast. The fastest character in the game, to be exact. You cannot zone him at all, by the time you throw out an Arcfire he's already in your face hitting you. He's also small, and can combo you. Sonic is an absolute nightmare for Robin.


So there are my opinions. Please keep in mind that these are opinions, not facts, and that they may not necessarily be correct. Feel free to agree, disagree, get defensive, call me a scrub, etc. If you want me to be more specific about some matchups, let me know.

All right can I talk about the Sonic MU for a second please. We lose this MU, but it is by far not the worst MU for Robin. I have played against an extremely good competent Sonic player for hours on end. The problem with most people is they try to Zone sonic, but this MU requires a lot of patience. Throw out Arcfire before he approaches, El thunder/Arcthunder is crucial in the MU. Throw them out when you see him dash.

Besides throwing out Arcfire in anticipation of Sonic dashing. You don't want to be caught standing still at all shielding, because that is when the Sonic mix ups will SCREW YOU UP. Sonic is unpredictable in fact I think he has the best mind games out of the entire roster. A good Sonic is hard to punish, but an amazing sonic well you never will know what he is going to do. So be constantly moving, and punish only when Sonic commits to something hard. This match requires a lot of patience for you to win. Also if you catch the Sonic slipping up, then you should go in with everything you got. I won't lie this MU is tough like really tough, but its no where near as bad as Diddy or Shiek.

 

[DavemanCozy]

We've started prelim. discussion of Fox vs Robin over at the Lylat System. Click here to discuss
vs

 

[Mr. Johan]

I think now would be a good time to start getting some true matchup analyses down, instead of just having them come up whenever need be.

And not for MU numbers. That's all subjective and leads to needless back and forth bickering and deviates from the point of the analysis. Just a comprehensive list of dos and don'ts for the MU in question, for both our benefit and the other mains' benefit.

I could start it off if y'all want. Would you want them in individual threads, or just all compiled here?

 

[Delzethin]

Maybe we could do the actual discussion in this thread, then also have a separate thread to post all the finished analyses in?

 

[PK Gaming]

Individual threads would be preferred. That way, the thread title could draw the attention of more people

For instance

[Robin vs Captain Falcon thread]

Some Captain Falcon: Oh ****, i'd better stop what i'm doing right now or else the world will end unless I school some uppity Robin mains.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

There over 50 characters I this game, if we made individual threads for each matchup the entire board would be nothing but matchup threads. I say leave them in here.

The question is how do we actually start? Just dive right in? I guess if that's the case, we should go in order, starting with Mario.

 

[Macchiato]

Let's do it in the order of the roster

 

[Ffamran]

SWEAR TO ME! ... Oh, wait... That's Nolan/Bale's Batman. Er... What does Nightwing say? ... ... ... Er...

Hello, fellow birdies, the Falco boards started their ongoing matchup discussion on Robin and would love the strategist's input. Oh, and yes, you can bring Chrom along too for moral support. Link: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4-falco-matchup-discussion-37-robin-nightwing-flamebird.403632/.

And if you want to learn more about the MU through good ol' fights or just want to have fun, check out this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

 

[NT 3000]

i guess no one plays robin anymore lol

 

[Splooshi Splashy]

I'm not sure if it's okay to speak of any MUs here that isn't right now, and if it isn't, then I apologize in advance, but this topic's been lying dormant for an entire month, and I'd like to spark some activity here, starting with 2 of my mains, both of whom I confess to picking on good Robin players with in FG Anywhere...

Has many projectiles, all of which are very slow and easy to shield.

As a Duck Hunt main, I believe the MU should be at least -1 or worse in favor of DH with customs off, because even though Gunmen, Cans, and Clays are indeed slow and shieldable, they can all block off Fires, thrown books & Levin Swords, and Thunders except Thoron (be thankful for this, you'll need it to break through). Gunmen is his absolute fastest & most reliable guard move (both in startup and recovery), but if KO'd (which a single ArcFire or Elthunder or ArcThunder will do in 1 go), has the longest respawn time (unless Can's knocked off-stage). Can is his most consistent and sturdy guard move with the strongest KO power of his 3 projectiles, but it requires a bit of assembly time, and its useless as a meat shield if you dash attack it or you're past it already. Clay is his most distant, laggy, flimsy, and most damaging guard move that will likely show up when Gunman is KO'd & Can is bypassed.

An aggressive DH that follows his own projectiles as he approaches you (i.e. me and possibly Brood) will challenge your shielding and projectiles with his own stuff, as well as grabs and pokes (especially if any of DH's stuff is still active and not KO'd), and while DH's disjointed tilts and aerials are generally faster than yours, you outrange DH's melee. Once DH's blocked off your Fires and Thunders with his own stuff, DH can come out of recovery frames faster than Robin can, and thus he gets to either lame you out, or go in on you on his own terms.

DH is also blessed with being able to duck, DTilt, and even crawl under Thoron, as are a few others (ex. Pikachu, Sheik, Diddy, Greninja, etc.). Much like Alph, a DH that's both aware of this fact and in position to act on it will start crawling around when it's fully charged, expecting and even baiting you to throw it out. You must catch him in a standing or aerial action if you're going to land it consistently.

However, it normally takes DH longer to KO you than it does for you to KO him. Coming back to the stage against DH is hard because of both his Can and himself being able to chase you somewhat far (even farther if he gets a walled stage like Duck Hunt and Wii Fit Studio/Nintendogs Omega, due to his wall-jump) for the DAir spike. DH coming back to the stage is easy for Robin to handle, since you have Thunders and (Gliding) Elwind/Levin!DAir spikes, once you get past his Can or Gunmen (or even his wall-jump, depending on the stage) and he's stuck Up B-ing.

With Customs on, DH gets to run 3123 or 3122 or 3121.

Zigzag Can is better at anti-airing you than default Can (bad for you, since you'll probably be in the air pretty often), and if positioned & mashed well, can rack up big damage very quickly.

Default Clay is good enough as it is for this MU. You may be slow, but you're not big enough for Clay Break to be preferred, and Rising Clay's payoff is too small to be worthwhile.

Duck Jump Snag denies you Elwind Spikes and possibly Levin DAir spikes, but it'll lose to Thunders. It's also an incredible Out of Shield option for getting him out of trouble (i.e. when you get in on him). He'll be begging for a walled stage like Duck Hunt or Castle Siege or Omega Wii Fit Studio if he runs this, even though both of the former stages ruin his projectiles.

Mega Gunmen's even better at warding off your Fires and Thunders (still not Thoron, thankfully) than default Gunmen, but it's the slowest of the 3 at actually firing at you, and it has good range on its shots. Quick Draw Aces MIGHT be considered for this MU to force you into the air for his long-range FAir to poke at you, as well as setting up Zigzag Can. QDA can still block off shots, but unlike default, QDA's own shots might actually come out to hit you before the Gunmen get KO'd, IF you're close enough.

You get to run 3312 or 3311 or 3313 or possibly 3332 or 3333 or 3331.

Speed Thunder = Charges up to Thoron quicker, and therefore, you get to rip through DH's projectiles more often (and hopefully DH himself as well, if you catch him standing/attacking/jumping/recovering/etc.).

Fire Wall = Helps KO Mega Gunmen if 2 of these are thrown at it (or 1 Fire Wall and 2 DTilts), plus it allows you to come down on DH easier (like as if it's WFT's Weighted Header). It also has faster recovery, so you can actually challenge DH's swarm.

Gliding Elwind = Out of Shield Escape/movement option that can help gimp DH, as well as get you inside.

Goetia = Bigger range that can really rack up damage
or Distant Nosferatu = An aid to fight camps
Of course, the biggest benefit will probably come from default, even though I'd personally run the other 2 (especially Distant in this MU, if the player is a defensive camper).

As for stages, I'd say Battlefield, Town & City, and possibly Smashville. Duck Hunt and Castle Siege are mixed bags. If possible, avoid walled Omegas and FD. You could try Delfino or Halberd to take advantage of Levin!UAir and your other moves' wonderful ceiling KO abilities... just be wary of the Dog's Zigzag Can, UAir, UTilt, and USmash, which DO KO earlier in those places as well.

Customs Robin actually has a shot at winning this, even with the variety of buffs that DH gets from his. With Customs, it becomes more even, to the point that I'd agree with the 0 assessment, possibly +1 Robin. Without customs, I'd say -1 in favor of DH.

I have very little experience with this matchup, but from what I can tell, he has spammable projectiles, a good aerial game, and is small.

Seeing -1 for Bowser Jr. personally makes me smile as a Jr main, for I've not been troubled by Robins too often while I'm him (and DH, for that matter). While he's not as good at warding off Fires and Thunders as DH is, even with Cannonballs and Mechakoopas (unless they're customized to be Neutral 2 and Down 2), he's certainly more mobile than he appears to be, especially if he's Side B Jump Cancelling often. Mechakoopas will certainly ruin your ground game, as it will go under ArcFire if its close to you already, and ALL Thunders (even Thoron!) if its already walking around. Mechakoopas are spammable (unless you're upclose, in which case you get to punish, preferably with a headshot), but Cannonballs are not (unless its Piercing or Air Cannon). Default Cannonballs can pierce your ArcFire and retain its full damage & knockback.

However, I don't believe that Jr is that small. As heavy as Charizard, yes, but not small. He can't crouch, crawl (at all!), or DTilt under Thoron (but his Mechakoopa sure can~), so he'll get zapped if he tries. His Mechakoopa IS small, yes, and if you're without Customs, a late ArcFire that goes over Mecha is a punish from the Mecha itself, that if Jr can get past the ArcFire when that happens, can become a bigger punish.

His air game is definitely remarkable, with disjoints on everything, and good range & speed on them to boot. Its also going to be one of his main ways of approaching you, for he wants to jump in on you to take advantage of the extra defense his Car offers him. Thus, you'll be jockeying for the high ground against him (which you want to have to headshot his squishy head for big damage), and unless you're running Gliding Elwind &/or Fire Wall, I don't see Robin holding that position too often against him (unlike Jiggs, Pit, ZSS, etc.)

His punish game is phenomenal with Side B Jump Cancels. From 0%, he can Side B --> JC --> DAir --> Shorthop FAir --> Neutral A string (juggle ends here) or DTilt (juggle ends here, unless the 3rd lick misses, in which case, he gets to do another SH FAir --> anything) or UTilt x? --> UAir x? for big damage.
At 50-ish%, Side B --> JC --> UAir x1 or x2.
At 75-ish%, Side B --> JC --> UAir --> Up B --> A (Hammer) for the KO.
At 100-ish%, Side B --> JC --> Up B --> A (Hammer) for the KO.

Upclose, Jr has a 4-frame jab AND DTilt, with his DTilt having the better range of the 2. DTilt also has a more desirable lingering set of hitboxes that literally slurps up spotdodges, bad rolls, some jump-ins, stuck out limbs from 5+ frame moves, and it even beats certain moves entirely (ex. Meta Knight's Neutral and Down B). In Robin's case, you'll have to either challenge him with your own jab, or if you have customs on, Side 3 or Up 3. You could try your tilts, but speed-wise, you'll generally clash or even lose.

His edgeguarding ability is practically at Villager & ROB levels of hounding, for he will chase you to the edges of the screen with FAirs, NAirs, BAirs, Mechakoopas, and even Up B, because of Side B Jump Cancels safely bringing him back to the stage, even when there's no walls. Jrs may also treat the 3rd jump, the Side B JC, as an extra chance to gimp you before heading back on-stage. At 70-ish%, he can carry you all the way to the blast zone with just shorthop FAirs (especially if accompanied by a Side B JC).

I've specifically mentioned headshots a few times. Why? That's where Jr's weakest defense area is. You'll deal more damage and knockback to him on the head. Conversely, you'll deal less damage and knockback to him on the Car. Said Car also can have super armor during Side B, depending on what you hit the Car with, but it's inconsistent, so don't count on it happening too often.

With Customs on, he gets to run 2121 (likely, given how much his default Side and Down B moves trouble you as is), 2123, 2221, 2223, 2321, 2323, or 1121. Of these, you most likely will see 2121 or 1121, or even 1111.

Piercing Cannon lets him challenge your Fires and Thunders better than ever. Air Cannon may not be of use in this MU, considering how good your recovery is (especially if you run Gliding, which can push through its horizontal blowback), as well as how useless it is at warding off your Fires and Thunders.

Default Side B can suffice as an incredible punish tool, but it loses hard to Fires and Thunders if not Jump Cancelled and accompanied by his Mechakoopa.

Koopa Drift grants him incredible horizontal movement, particularly in the air. His JC height from it is worse, though.

Grounding Dash gives him full-blown super armor that lets him rush through your Fires, Thunders (even Thoron!), and Levin Sword swings. However, its startup can be grabbed, both normally and with Nosferatu.

Meteor Ejection denies you Levin DAir and Elwind spikes, due to its super armor, and it could instead counter-spike you for trying.

Big Mechakoopa gives him a damaging KO projectile that can clash with your Fires & Thunders.

You'll probably want to run 3331 or 3333 or 3311 or 3313. He likely won't be zoning from midrange long enough for Distant Nosferatu to connect often. Gliding Elwind & Fire Wall can nab those headshots, and Speed Thunder lets you beat Cannonballs with Thoron more often. Gliding's horizontal speed can help you defend against Jr's edgeguards and possibly spike him if he's slow to Up 2-ing you.

As for stages, again, I'd say Battlefield, Town & City, and possibly Smashville. The mixed bag here is Lylat Cruise, due to Jr's phenomenal recovery. Like DH, if possible, avoid Omegas (not just the walled ones), FD, and even the Duck Hunt & Castle Siege stages. Halberd & Delfino may be worth trying, but unlike DHD, Jr's got more KO power & a better recovery to make those stages bigger risks for you to take.

With Customs, it evens up, possibly bringing it to 0. Would +1 in Robin's favor be too much of a stretch? I can't help but think so.... Without Customs, -1 in favor of Jr.

 

[Froggy]

Anyone else having a hell of a hard time against Yoshi? His areal mobility and flexibility makes it hard to him with either el thunrder or arc fire, that he can't be shield stabbed damaged Robin's projectile game immensily, and he even seems to with the up colose battle. I'm gonna try arc fire plus and distant nosferatu next time for this match but as of right now its looking like Robin's hardest match up for me.

 

[Scarf Wynaut]

with yoshi I like to zone him mainly using aerials as nair (and potentially fair or uair depending on ur position relative to Yoshi's) beats out yoshi's in terms of range and his fairs start lag is atrocious. His grounded approaches are sup bar since his dash can be shield grabbed easily and his roll is one of the slowest in the game allowing for pivot f-smash / nosferatu / arcfire / pretty much anything. gimping him is hard due to his double jump's super armor so i'd avoid confronting him off stage. his eggs are imo is his most powerful weapon against robin since they interrupt spells and are a general pain to approach against. in this matchup i'd recommend not relying as much on your specials and space your aerials correctly. if you start to throw arcfires around yoshi can jump on you and punish hard with his powerful aerial kit so think about ur projectile uses.

 

[Froggy]

with yoshi I like to zone him mainly using aerials as nair (and potentially fair or uair depending on ur position relative to Yoshi's) beats out yoshi's in terms of range and his fairs start lag is atrocious. His grounded approaches are sup bar since his dash can be shield grabbed easily and his roll is one of the slowest in the game allowing for pivot f-smash / nosferatu / arcfire / pretty much anything. gimping him is hard due to his double jump's super armor so i'd avoid confronting him off stage. his eggs are imo is his most powerful weapon against robin since they interrupt spells and are a general pain to approach against. in this matchup i'd recommend not relying as much on your specials and space your aerials correctly. if you start to throw arcfires around yoshi can jump on you and punish hard with his powerful aerial kit so think about ur projectile uses.

Seems like a fantastic idea. Thank you.

 

[SuperDavio]

Man, I just don't know what to do against Fox as Robin.

I can normally cool fast characters down with projectile bombardment, but he's the one fast one with a reflector. It's starting to kill me at locals, so I have to use DP against Fox.

Do you all have any Fox specific advice?

 

[Froggy]

Man, I just don't know what to do against Fox as Robin.

I can normally cool fast characters down with projectile bombardment, but he's the one fast one with a reflector. It's starting to kill me at locals, so I have to use DP against Fox.

Do you all have any Fox specific advice?

Fox is an anomaly for me. My head tells me that 331X is the best custom against him yet I've been using 231X against him lately and it has been so great. As long as you're not on FD it forces Fox to approach you, so you don't need to catch and I've also realize that Fox players spam a lot of laggy moves, it's just that with Robin's poor run speed it's hard to punishing them for it. Thunder+ ing them for it is incredible. I haven't fooled around with it enough to say it beats Fox and in my head it doesn't sem like it should work but for the time being it has been effective for me.

 

[Meneil]

Man, I just don't know what to do against Fox as Robin.

I can normally cool fast characters down with projectile bombardment, but he's the one fast one with a reflector. It's starting to kill me at locals, so I have to use DP against Fox.

Do you all have any Fox specific advice?

Fox is an uphill battle for Robin, but I still think possible. I would run 3311 (speed thunder + firewall) or 1311 (just firewall) if customs are legal. For the neutral game, Robin must be very patient. Try to safely limit your opponent's options, and generally stay in the center of the stage - Fox's mobility is a strong tool, but it is weakened if he only has half the stage to work with. I stay on the ground more against Fox unless trying to bait or condition them for something, as jabs and tilts are safer in neutral.

For thunder - yeah, Fox's reflector means that Robin can't throw out thunders like against other opponents. I only throw it out usually unless I'm catching distant tech chase, or most importantly, when Fox is recovering back on stage. For this reason I usually stick with elthunder or thoron (thoron more if I think the opponent will jump, because even if it gets reflected back, it will miss Robin). Elthunder likely won't connect (assuming your opponent reacts in time), however you can use this to set up ledge trumps and even Elwind spikes.

Firewall is a great defensive tool. If you're knocked in the air and trying to land back on the ground, you can throw Firewall out and land right where it hits. A character that's looking to punish your landing will have a hard time doing so unless they predict it. When your opponent catches on and tries to stand just out of reach, Robin can conversely just land without throwing it out, and great now it's back to neutral instead of being juggled.

 

[Tomoya Okazaki]

Anyone have advice with Robin vs Megaman? I have just a terrible time playing against him as Robin.

 

[UmbreonMageBrando]

Whenever I fight a ZSS as Robin I feel like I don't stand much of a chance due to every match I've fought against her resulting in a DownB spike. Any tips on how to deal with her? I become tense whenever I find myself pitted against her.

 

[Moydow]

If gets too down-B happy, just run or jump up to her, and shield or air dodge while she's doing the jump. If you time it right, she'll jump off you (without hitting you, because you dodged/shielded), leaving her wide open for punishment until she lands again. (this applies to pretty much anyone against her)
If customs are available, go Speed Thunder.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Hello Robins, Zelda boards are beginning discussion on you and we would hope you would attend to the http://smashboards.com/threads/a-link-between-duels-ssb4-zelda-matchup-thread-discussion-robin.384490/page-19#post-19544639

hope to see you there

 

[UmbreonMageBrando]

Anyone have advice with Robin vs Megaman? I have just a terrible time playing against him as Robin.

As a mega man main his pellets cancels any non fully charged thunder tome uses while thoron eats them up while hitting mega man in the process, also if you manage to grab his metal blade hold on to it and throw it when the time is right, when holding on to the metal blade it limits mega man to where he can no longer perform certain AT's or kill setups that requires the metal blade to be in his possession, he will be forced to use his other tools to try pressure you.

As for the crash bombs, when one is stuck on you I wouldn't recommend trying to stick it back on him because he can keep you at bay with his pellets and metal blades long enough for the crash bomb to detonate but if you somehow manage to stick it on him he can only do 2 things about it, either shield or stick it back on you. If he shields that is a free nosferatu if timed correctly assuming you're close enough, if timed incorrectly you and him will be hit out of the command grab due to the crash bomb being multiple explosions in one. If he tries to stick back on you arcfire and thunder tome uses are your friend because they can also keep him at bay while creating shield pressure which can lead to a shield break. An example would be arcfire into thoron while the crash bomber is stuck on him, arcfire does push the opponent back a little bit while dealing shield damage, following up with thoron while holding b will make it to where the crash bomb will break the shield but I'm not sure if the multiple explosions will hit him out of his dizzy state, you can also wait until the crash bomb explodes and then unleash thoron for a potential shield break.

As for the leaf shield I'm not sure if thoron blocks it or passes through it but if thrown get ready to either shield or jump because it's a projectile that can't really be blocked by other projectiles, also try to avoid getting leafstooled or spiked by his Dair, since robin's recovery has no hit box covering him against attacks from above leaving robin vulnerable to being spiked or gimped after an aerial.

If mega man gets too Fair happy he can easily be shield grabbed since his sh fair isn't safe on block, unless full hopped he will have landing lag from his sh fair, if the landing lag isn't long enough for you to punish it he will either spam pellets which you can try roll behind him for a grab or an arcfire if he expects the cross up grab and walks away from you, also keep in mind He has a bit of startup when trying to fire his pellets in a different direction while they are being thrown out in one direction, if he goes into his shield you can either grab him or pivot grab him if he tries to spot dodge.

Try to mix up your options when trying to land, if he expects you to come down with an attack he may preemptively shield which you can abuse by trying to land with nosferatu. When dealing with his up air there's not much you can do about it except air dodge before it connects, a lot of mega man mains use this when their opponent is in the air so properly timing your air dodges will help you avoid triggering the windbox that his up air has.

If he ever tries to do a cross up uptilt either spot dodge or don't drop your shield, his up tilt can kill at 90+% while being super unsafe on block or when spot dodged, it can allow for a free punish if blocked or wiffed. If he throws a metal blade your way diagonally downwards shield immediately because he will try to perform his sacred combo, b reversed metal blade into up tilt which is guaranteed if the metal blade connects when you are at high percents. Also full hop air dodge when ever he tries to perform the super glide toss into an up tilt or an up smash, I wouldn't recommend trying to stop it with an attack since he can shield while performing this AT.

At some point he will try either space or ko you with a sh Bair which doesn't have much landing lag but it still can be punished with properly timed thunder tome use but thoron might be power shielded due to its start up. Try to pick up the books or Levin sword when they break, they can be blocked by his projectiles but holding on to them and throwing them at the right time can be very rewarding because the books and LS have high amounts of knockback and shield damage when thrown, they can also be used to set up attack strings when utilized properly.

 

[Meneil]

Anyone have advice with Robin vs Megaman? I have just a terrible time playing against him as Robin.

I try to be just out of his pellet range, but no farther than that. This makes throwing out his other projectiles more unsafe. Megaman will primarily be trying to run away / keep Robin longer range, so remember to consider his escape options such as dtilt, rolls, and up b.

Whenever I fight a ZSS as Robin I feel like I don't stand much of a chance due to every match I've fought against her resulting in a DownB spike. Any tips on how to deal with her? I become tense whenever I find myself pitted against her.

I also have trouble with ZSS; I have a lot of trouble mainly with her Nair coverage, and I get scared at the mid % that I'll die from an up B combo. Mainly I feel like she just runs all around me and I'm not quite sure how to stop it, if anyone else has advice that would be nice too.

 

[Tomoya Okazaki]

As a mega man main his pellets cancels any non fully charged thunder tome uses while thoron eats them up while hitting mega man in the process, also if you manage to grab his metal blade hold on to it and throw it when the time is right, when holding on to the metal blade it limits mega man to where he can no longer perform certain AT's or kill setups that requires the metal blade to be in his possession, he will be forced to use his other tools to try pressure you.

As for the crash bombs, when one is stuck on you I wouldn't recommend trying to stick it back on him because he can keep you at bay with his pellets and metal blades long enough for the crash bomb to detonate but if you somehow manage to stick it on him he can only do 2 things about it, either shield or stick it back on you. If he shields that is a free nosferatu if timed correctly assuming you're close enough, if timed incorrectly you and him will be hit out of the command grab due to the crash bomb being multiple explosions in one. If he tries to stick back on you arcfire and thunder tome uses are your friend because they can also keep him at bay while creating shield pressure which can lead to a shield break. An example would be arcfire into thoron while the crash bomber is stuck on him, arcfire does push the opponent back a little bit while dealing shield damage, following up with thoron while holding b will make it to where the crash bomb will break the shield but I'm not sure if the multiple explosions will hit him out of his dizzy state, you can also wait until the crash bomb explodes and then unleash thoron for a potential shield break.

As for the leaf shield I'm not sure if thoron blocks it or passes through it but if thrown get ready to either shield or jump because it's a projectile that can't really be blocked by other projectiles, also try to avoid getting leafstooled or spiked by his Dair, since robin's recovery has no hit box covering him against attacks from above leaving robin vulnerable to being spiked or gimped after an aerial.

If mega man gets too Fair happy he can easily be shield grabbed since his sh fair isn't safe on block, unless full hopped he will have landing lag from his sh fair, if the landing lag isn't long enough for you to punish it he will either spam pellets which you can try roll behind him for a grab or an arcfire if he expects the cross up grab and walks away from you, also keep in mind He has a bit of startup when trying to fire his pellets in a different direction while they are being thrown out in one direction, if he goes into his shield you can either grab him or pivot grab him if he tries to spot dodge.

Try to mix up your options when trying to land, if he expects you to come down with an attack he may preemptively shield which you can abuse by trying to land with nosferatu. When dealing with his up air there's not much you can do about it except air dodge before it connects, a lot of mega man mains use this when their opponent is in the air so properly timing your air dodges will help you avoid triggering the windbox that his up air has.

If he ever tries to do a cross up uptilt either spot dodge or don't drop your shield, his up tilt can kill at 90+% while being super unsafe on block or when spot dodged, it can allow for a free punish if blocked or wiffed. If he throws a metal blade your way diagonally downwards shield immediately because he will try to perform his sacred combo, b reversed metal blade into up tilt which is guaranteed if the metal blade connects when you are at high percents. Also full hop air dodge when ever he tries to perform the super glide toss into an up tilt or an up smash, I wouldn't recommend trying to stop it with an attack since he can shield while performing this AT.

At some point he will try either space or ko you with a sh Bair which doesn't have much landing lag but it still can be punished with properly timed thunder tome use but thoron might be power shielded due to its start up. Try to pick up the books or Levin sword when they break, they can be blocked by his projectiles but holding on to them and throwing them at the right time can be very rewarding because the books and LS have high amounts of knockback and shield damage when thrown, they can also be used to set up attack strings when utilized properly.

Thanks a ton for this info it has given me quiet a few ideas on the MU!

 

[DarkDeity15]

So does anyone feel like discussing the Link MU? For now I'll just add this; Link can effectively out-camp Robin, is faster and has a far superior grab game (grab now has more range and less cool down, and Dthrow is now a combo throw as of 1.0.8). Link also has a few ways to get around and/or nullify some of Robin's projectile game. His bombs can cancel out or shrug off thunders, elthunders and archfires, and Hylian shield blocks everything other than archfire I believe. Our Zair is also good at poking from safe distances.

Generally it should be in Link's favor, but it's definitely not impossible for Robin. I'd like to see what you guys think about the MU.

 

[Tomoya Okazaki]

Any one got any tips on either the Roy or Luigi MU?

 

[Woohoo982]

I think it's safe to say Robin goes about even with Roy.
(I also think it's safe to say G&W can wreck the living heck out of Robin.)

 

[UmbreonMageBrando]

Recently I've been having trouble with Greninja, I feel like I can't do anything as Robin with out being grabbed, hit by shurikens, and punished for landing, trying to rush him down, and attempting to punish his Fsmash when shielded at close range. This match up to me feels pretty frustrating and almost unwinnable to the point where I have to switch to a different character to take on this amphibian shinobi to in order to have a decent chance against him or else I'll get bodied each time I face a greninja when I am using Robin. (also I don't use customs)

 

[Creeper3971]

Anyone have any idea to do tackle the Samus MU with Robin? Or even any heavy projectile characters like Toon Link? I feel like I have to perfect shield every projectile if I want to approach or charge up my Thunder tome. Their combo game seems a bit better ours too, particularly Toon Link. Would it be recommended to have a secondary for heavy projectile characters or is there a way to stop it with Robin?

Thanks in advance for any replies btw.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Robins out there, the Rosalina sub-forum has a match-up discussion thread all set up to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Robin. Got anything to share for the Rosalina vs. Robin match-up? Then head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/411702/

In terms of the rules, be sure to go to the directory thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/

 

[Rhus]

Hey guys, I co-main Robin with Fox.

Though I know it would just be smarter to play Fox against him, does anyone have any advice for me on the Robin vs. Lucas matchup? I seem to struggle in it quite a bit.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Daxter]

All right can I talk about the Sonic MU for a second please. We lose this MU, but it is by far not the worst MU for Robin. I have played against an extremely good competent Sonic player for hours on end. The problem with most people is they try to Zone sonic, but this MU requires a lot of patience. Throw out Arcfire before he approaches, El thunder/Arcthunder is crucial in the MU. Throw them out when you see him dash.

Besides throwing out Arcfire in anticipation of Sonic dashing. You don't want to be caught standing still at all shielding, because that is when the Sonic mix ups will SCREW YOU UP. Sonic is unpredictable in fact I think he has the best mind games out of the entire roster. A good Sonic is hard to punish, but an amazing sonic well you never will know what he is going to do. So be constantly moving, and punish only when Sonic commits to something hard. This match requires a lot of patience for you to win. Also if you catch the Sonic slipping up, then you should go in with everything you got. I won't lie this MU is tough like really tough, but its no where near as bad as Diddy or Shiek.

I'm so glad Diddy is up there at the top of worst matchups. I just faced one in a FG Tourney and lost very quickly. I could occasionally punish with N-Air and Wind Jabs, but that was my lot. Barely 60% in 2 stocks.

 

[LIQUID12A]

Anyone have any idea to do tackle the Samus MU with Robin? Or even any heavy projectile characters like Toon Link? I feel like I have to perfect shield every projectile if I want to approach or charge up my Thunder tome. Their combo game seems a bit better ours too, particularly Toon Link. Would it be recommended to have a secondary for heavy projectile characters or is there a way to stop it with Robin?

Thanks in advance for any replies btw.

As someone who regularly manages to kill Robins with Samus(if you've seen the recent video thread posts there are two matches of this MU in particular from me), I'll help you out on that.

You really need to deny Samus as much free time as possible. Charge Shot is essential to Samus' success in the MU because of all the mind games it forces. Between the freely spammable missiles and CS, Robin has it tough replying from afar because of limited projectiles unless you spam Thunder repeatedly, which will leave you defenseless and is thus a bad option. Close range, both are somewhat evenly matched. Robin has the new down throw combo, but exploiting it makes it so that you become predictable and punished by anything if there is a quick enough reaction from Samus. She's most vulnerable offstage, where her horizontal recovery is limited, and is thus easy bait for Levin strikes or Elwind.

Samus can be a huge nuisance to Robin, but it's not like Robin is defenseless either. The MU is certainly manageable.

Just don't be a salty tactician and quit if you lose repeatedly. You can improve.

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

I've had quite a tricky time as Robin dealing with hard rushdown characters just because it feels like there aren't any options to escape being combo'd into infinity. This thread has seen discussion about Mario and Pikachu and that ilk before, but I still don't feel confident in my ability to interrupt momentum just because many good rushdowns have superior frame data (if not range) compared to Robin.

Against Mario and Pikachu particularly, even after racking up damage conservatively with jab combos (fire jab, as wind is too easily DI-ed out of and punished) , dtilt, ftilt, and so on, these characters always seem to be able to survive into the mid-to-upper 100%s because Robin's kill setups (e.g. arcfire, arcthunder, now dthrow into uair) are either imminently punishable due to startup, cooldown, or startup and cooldown, or easy to shut down with fireballs or thundershocks (interrupting charge or outright denying projectiles). Whenever I play against these characters, most of my kills come from reading airdodges and hitting with a LSUair or reading rolls with fsmash or dsmash, and that feels inelegant and unreliable against really good players. Have I overlooked some option, or should I just grit my teeth and consider it a challenge of survivability? Definitely would not prefer the latter because both of these characters have such strong kill options (especially Pikachu offstage with that whirlygig move, which feels like it was made specifically to counter Robin's predictable recovery) at medium percentages that fighting them into frankly very silly damage ranges for their weight class feels like way too much of a gamble.

Thank you in advance for your prescription, Dr. Robin.

 

[Project_B]

I've had quite a tricky time as Robin dealing with hard rushdown characters just because it feels like there aren't any options to escape being combo'd into infinity. This thread has seen discussion about Mario and Pikachu and that ilk before, but I still don't feel confident in my ability to interrupt momentum just because many good rushdowns have superior frame data (if not range) compared to Robin.

Against Mario and Pikachu particularly, even after racking up damage conservatively with jab combos (fire jab, as wind is too easily DI-ed out of and punished) , dtilt, ftilt, and so on, these characters always seem to be able to survive into the mid-to-upper 100%s because Robin's kill setups (e.g. arcfire, arcthunder, now dthrow into uair) are either imminently punishable due to startup, cooldown, or startup and cooldown, or easy to shut down with fireballs or thundershocks (interrupting charge or outright denying projectiles). Whenever I play against these characters, most of my kills come from reading airdodges and hitting with a LSUair or reading rolls with fsmash or dsmash, and that feels inelegant and unreliable against really good players. Have I overlooked some option, or should I just grit my teeth and consider it a challenge of survivability? Definitely would not prefer the latter because both of these characters have such strong kill options (especially Pikachu offstage with that whirlygig move, which feels like it was made specifically to counter Robin's predictable recovery) at medium percentages that fighting them into frankly very silly damage ranges for their weight class feels like way too much of a gamble.

Thank you in advance for your prescription, Dr. Robin.

Well, Robin was my first main on the Wii U version of Smash 4, and since then has become a secondary, and now is more of a pocket character of mine to use in specific matchups. The main reason that I found Robin sub-par to even several mid-tiers that I now use is because of rush down characters, or characters which have no range but great up close frame data. Against these characters, you need to respect many of their moves, even some smash attacks. When Nairo was asked on stream what the best part of Ally's Mario was, Nairo said, "His brain. He may throw out a lot of up smashes, but he knows how good the move is." And in truth, a character like Mario, or even Pikachu can get away with whiffing seemingly punishable moves on shield. Thus I can offer only a bit about to think about combating them.

1. Outplaying while onstage. This definitely involves power-shielding moves like Mario's fireballs and Pikachu's thunder shock (but only if he's not running in!). And if you can, power-shield as your way to cancel charging the thunder tome. This can be tough, and online it is ridiculously difficult, but remember that when playing Robin you will have very few good chances to shield grab/get a decent punish after shielding. If they do not approach, you can try firing off a projectile, but if you get the percent lead or it's tied, do not approach. Now, jab is good because it's fast, and if you catch an opponent in a good spot, after the wind jab buff it has become easier to land, but only use it for the minimum duration. The finisher will kill decently well and more safely than a hard read with a smash, especially on Pikachu.

2. Edgeguarding. Now, to start, I would not follow Pikachu offstage, but you could go for a ledge trump if you wanted to, then stand at the edge (still not offstage) and react to a given recovery option. For Mario, I would recommend that you either commit completely or not at all. If Mario capes your recovery, I don't have a complete explanation for what happens, but I believe he can reverse your momentum AND send the first elwind shot back at you to spike even harder. Use nAir against Mario as it is fast, long range, and sends him at a horizontal angle which should gimp him. Plus, if you get caped, you might still land the back hit. Another important way to get damage is by reading get ups. Make sure you are trying something, and some of the best options are 1) pivot grabbing, 2) fTilt, and 3) short hop up air. Pivot grabs can catch rolls and normal get ups, and back throw can kill after pivot grabbing a normal getup.

These characters were the ones that convinced me that Robin was not quite versatile enough to use as a main, but you could be a better Robin, and I know that good Robin players can make these matchups doable. I hope this helps you out!

 

[Haze~]

So is noone gonna explain how good thunder can be vs rushdowncharacters now cause of it's buffed cool down? Spacing with thunder is great vs jumphappy characters like sheiks and zss's now that we can act out of it so soon. I sometimes use it with a sh when i know they will jump and if i miss i can atleast roll away or shield if i know they will throw out a move. If it connects it can combo into another thunder(almost like falcos brawl shdl) or a dashgrab/arcfire if you're close enough and see them shielding. If it doesn't connect and you see them running for you then you have the frame advantage if spaced at max range so be creative. Also dealing with thunders rangeproblem can be solved by elthunder -> foreward jump thunder to interupt a player best case scenario beating sheiks needles, hard yes but managable with great spacing. In matchups like these you will/should probably only get to charge 1 or 2 arcthunders so using thunder and elthunder is more rewarding.

 

[AC NuBurs]

Anyone got advice for ROB? Tourney next week, and one of our best players switched to him.

 

[Pwn7]

Having a hard time vs heavy grabbing ZSS lately, and ways to safely gain footing from being on the edge. I just keep getting grabbed, rarely can sidestep it at the right timing & rolls are awful vs it. Feels like jumping is a bad idea with ZSS options in air. (Not to mention it feels as if I'm getting grabbed when I'm just slightly off the ground) Spacing is just difficult for me lately in this match up. Any tips? Thanks

 

[Project_B]

@ AC NuBurs - I personally love the Robin side of Robin vs Rob. I haven't actually played the matchup after patch 1.1.0, and so I haven't really tested kill options with the down throw comboes, but I know that many of your kills should come from back air or neutral air offstage. Remember to respect some of his aerials if you don't have a fast OOS option depending on where he lands. If you grab the gyro, you can throw it straight up to make it take the most time to return to ROB, and give you a chance to approach, but still able to grab the gyro again to throw it up again, or at ROB. Remember that if you react to his laser, you can generally power-shield it right after you see the startup frames. The laser can be blocked on reaction, but the gyro comes out very fast, and up close it can't really be stopped when you see the animation. Remember that ROB can hold the stage very well, and if you get knocked off, ROB players like to try to snipe you with the laser. ROB is most vulnerable, like most characters, when he's offstage with no jump. Remember that if ROB is upBing back to the stage and cons within range of an arcfire from the edge, he can't air dodge it. The same goes for any attack really, but ROB can attack out of it and retain enough juice to get back to stage, and can go all the way under as a mix up. Go for back air, fAir (might be even better with the larger hitbox), or nAir to gimp if ROB is running low on juice or you have lost the Levin sword. Down air with the Levin sword is good if you know you can land it, but it is risky if it gets avoided. To approach ROB, and do so only after you have charged Thunder to the level that you want, try short hopping over the gyro and using arcfire when it is in play, and when it isn't, you can really approach however you want as long as you space appropriately.

A couple of extras would be to use your items well to create shield pressure and open up an avenue to approach, or you can z-drop them when ROB is offstage. Now that arcthunder is faster, it is possible that an arcthunder from the edge to down air will work, but you would have to test it out.

Edit: to keep your items in play while fighting, you can throw them straight up too, but they rise and fall much faster and you need to grab them fast.

Best of luck at your tourney, and good for you for repping Robin!

 

[Project_B]

Having a hard time vs heavy grabbing ZSS lately, and ways to safely gain footing from being on the edge. I just keep getting grabbed, rarely can sidestep it at the right timing & rolls are awful vs it. Feels like jumping is a bad idea with ZSS options in air. (Not to mention it feels as if I'm getting grabbed when I'm just slightly off the ground) Spacing is just difficult for me lately in this match up. Any tips? Thanks

For this, you might want to take a look into the frame data. Zero Suit Samus' standing grab is 68 frames, her dash grab is 71 frames, and her pivot grab is 78 frames. The frames where you will be grabbed for colliding with the grab hitboxes are, when you are in a perfect position to get grabbed, 16-29 for both standing and dash grabs (duration of 14 frames) and 17-29 for pivot grabs (duration of 13 frames). Robin has a spotdodge that is 28 frames long and has intangibility on frames 3-19 (17 frames); both rolls are 31 frames long with intangibility on frames 4-19 (16 frames).

Now that all of the data is out there, you can find out how to avoid grabs. The most risky and rewarding option on reaction is spot dodge. Hopefully you can either read or react to a grab that comes out on frame 16, and maybe you can even time the spotdodge to avoid the grab. The spot dodge comes out after 3 frames, so you can be safe when reacting on frames 11-14 for standing/dash grabs and 11-15 for pivot grabs. Now a four frame window is pretty small, but if you know the animation, and considering that people hit the one frame of ledge snap vulnerability and two frames of normal get up lag, it is certainly doable. Rolling away allows you to react on frames 1-13/14, but because of her grab range, you can still get grabbed. Rolling behind ZSS allows you to react on frames 1-13/14 as well, and you can get even better punishes, making it probably the best option.

Now, for a character with a 68-78 frame long grab, you can punish very hard. After a spotdodge, you have at least 25 frames to punish. Feel free to charge an fSmash (not all the way, though), or take yourself a grab, or really any punish you want. If you get right to it, you can literally punish with any of Robin's moves if you use it immediately. After a roll behind, you have 23-37 frames to punish. The least you can do is get an fSmash in.

This is all assuming that you use a defensive measure to combat a grab, but a heavy grabbing ZSS could miss a grab, and you can get the full 68-78 frames (albeit from a worse position). If you are not convinced that a ZSS throwing out grabs is easy to punish, then at most vulnerable, Ganondorf can straight up warlock punch her. There are only two moves in the game that I know would not be able to hit her, so do whatever you want.

If you are looking for general matchup knowledge, it has all already been mentioned. It's tough, but you need to always punish ZSS's grabs, and anticipate and read them when the ZSS is grabbing often.