Q&A "Worthy Opponents Indeed!" - Match-up Q&A Thread

[Silverfox117]

Using Robin as a secondary and am wondering what some of Robin's best matchups are and why. Can someone help me out?

Robin loses every match up. JK XD. Her best match up is against slower characters like Ganondord, but i feel like Robin is basically even every match up. Which isn't a terrible thing.

 

[iVoltage]

Personally I have alot of trouble against the diddy's and Ness but they are still very winnable. Having a rather even score against everyone is actually kinda nice because you don't really have to put more time into another character if you don't want to.

 

[elegyempty]

a few matchup impressions

--GAME AND WATCH--

A surprisingly difficult matchup since G&W can both duck under Robin's attacks and has Oil Panic, which feels as if it was retroactively designed to make Robin's life difficult. In case you've never played against a G&W that has utilized the full breadth of this fearsome move, it can fill up from a single Thoron, but more importantly, it can fill up from scooping the "flame" of an Arcfire (scooping an Arcfire shot in the air only charges 1/3rd of O.P.). Oil Panic comes out fast and large and kills obscenely early, which means that a good G&W can scare you out of most of your zoning tools and set the match to his terms.

The answer to this is to diversify, leaning even more on Levin aerials (though vs. G&W's air game the spacing is pretty tight), punishing shields with Nosferatu and catching as many tomes and swords as possible. With the obvious restrictions on your space control, you need as many tools as you can get your hands on (lol).

--OLIMALPH--

Take it to the air. On the ground
- Fire Pikmin will punch straight through any Arcfire traps
- Shielding will either get you grabbed or you'll find yourself with a pile of Pikmin munching away at your % with no easy way to get them off (Yellow Pikmin shrug off Levin hits ( ;-; )
- His horizontal smashes out-range yours by a wide margin.

...note that while this places some interesting restrictions on your toolset, it doesn't have the same impact Oil Panic *shudder* does. Elthunder becomes a bit more important than Arcfire for forcing aerial approaches, which are more punishable with shield-grabs due to Olimalph's shorter aerial range.

In the air, you handily out-range his attacks, and can more or less have your way with him, provided you don't whiff a hit on his tiny body. (One note: Olimalph can punish Elwind recoveries hard, especially if he's got his small spaceman hands on a purple. Be wary.)

Think on your toes, be precise, and watch his Pikmin like a hawk, and this matchup shouldn't give you unnecessary trouble.

--JIGGLYPUFF--

Though this is a slow, patient game, I actually enjoy fighting this matchup quite a bit. While Jiggs can float in and out of range without much difficulty, you can punish pretty much any carelessness with both your spells and your Levin Sword. While Jiggs can duck under your thunder spells, they generally tend to coax Jiggs higher into the air, where she's going to either run into the Arcfire trajectory and/or be u-air juggle food.

A smart Jiggs will respond to this by attempting to feint you into committing too much or getting too hungry. Patience and caution is key here as (with most characters), once she gets inside she can get you up in the air and make mincemeat of your weak landing game and poor shield-grab. Mind your auto-cancels, and don't underestimate the power of a fast-fall Thoron on floaty foes.

 

[Laggalot101]

*snip*

G&W is a pain. I learned that the hard way. Sounds like if you want to arcfire, make sure it doesn't actually light the fire on the ground (meaning, do it out of a jump). Otherwise you'll likely eat an Oil Panic. Experience tells me that Oil Panic typically breaks your shield in one hit, so I think that's worthy of a mention. It might be worthwhile to just waste tome uses by deliberately missing the attacks, so you can use them as safe projectiles.

Quick question: does elwind fill up Oil Panic?

Olimar/Alph... (which you cleverly refer to as Olimalph... I need to remember that) I have experience fighting this one as well. This character's been getting an IMO unexpected amount of usage lately. Surprisingly tough match-up, I think.

Yeah, Arcfire seems just about useless in this match-up. Thrown items also just strike the thrown Pikmin usually. Same goes for the Thunder variants, EXCEPT Thoron. Thoron blasts straight through Olimalph's Pikmin Wall. If you're gonna Neutral-B this move, always charge to Thoron. Also, where Olimalph punishes our recoveries well, the reverse is also true. Olimalph's recovery is slow and predictable. Seriously, it just screams "ELWIND SPIKE ME, PLZ!". Keep an eye out for this.

My main beef with this guy is actually approaching him. If we go for a ground approach, we get pelted by Pikmin, as you mentioned. And we really don't appraoch very well through the air very well, either. Maybe you can go for a mix-up by approaching with a Nosferatu landing in front of him, maybe the approach becomes a bit safer once the opponent becomes aware of this threat, but it's gonna be hard either way I feel.

Finally Jiggly. I feel like I haven't fought enough competent ones to really say a whole lot, but... get underneath her. I strongly believe there's not a better place to be relative to Jiggly than (diagonally) below her. Levin-Uair is just SO good. The wonderful thing is, its range looks great, and the range IS even better. Also, I hilariously don't remember for sure anymore, but I believe shorthopped up-air autocancels as well. Robin's best move in this match-up, IMO (of course, assuming Jiggly is air-happy).

 

[elegyempty]

does elwind fill up Oil Panic?

I believe so, but I need to test this more. Also, Arcthunder should only fill one unit of O.P., like an aerial Arcfire shot.

Thoron blasts straight through Olimalph's Pikmin Wall. If you're gonna Neutral-B this move, always charge to Thoron.

Generally speaking, I would recommend doubling-down on Thorons for characters that can out-camp Robin. Link comes to mind. ROB, too.

Olimalph's recovery is slow and predictable. Seriously, it just screams "ELWIND SPIKE ME, PLZ!". Keep an eye out for this.

Personally, I prefer the d-air.

Maybe you can go for a mix-up by approaching with a Nosferatu landing in front of him, maybe the approach becomes a bit safer once the opponent becomes aware of this threat, but it's gonna be hard either way I feel.

Nosferatu is very good for keeping opponents nervous about shielding your approach. You can also use it on platform campers expecting a u-air.

 

[Laggalot101]

Personally, I prefer the d-air.

Levin Dair has a stronger spike, sure (it's a stronger attack in general), but I prefer the accuracy of Elwind. Elwind's spike hitbox feels much easier to land than the Dair (to me), especially since Dair is a bit slow. Moreover, the odd whiff, I can see Olimalph grabbing the ledge, then letting go to Bair you as you try to reach the ledge again with your recovery.

Nosferatu is very good for keeping opponents nervous about shielding your approach. You can also use it on platform campers expecting a u-air.

Exactly this, your wording is probably a bit more straightforward, though, which is good.

Comments underlined. Nothing major.

 

[Knee Smasher]

Hi, I am a player who mains two characters: Captain Falcon and Charizard. Between my two mains, I feel that there are only two characters in the roster who I consistently find myself at a disadvantage against, one of whom being Robin. So I'd like all skilled Robin players on this board to name all the characters they find themselves at a disadvantage against, as I need to pick up a character that does well against Robin. Please note that I only want replies from those who are having trouble against certain characters despite the fact that they consider themselves to be good Robin players and know the matchups against the characters they're naming well, not just those who are having trouble against certain characters just because they don't know the matchups well.

Also, would the Robin players on this board agree with me that Robin has an advantage against both Captain Falcon and Charizard?

 

[Raziek]

Hi, I am a player who mains two characters: Captain Falcon and Charizard. Between my two mains, I feel that there are only two characters in the roster who I consistently find myself at a disadvantage against, one of whom being Robin. So I'd like all skilled Robin players on this board to name all the characters they find themselves at a disadvantage against, as I need to pick up a character that does well against Robin. Please note that I only want replies from those who are having trouble against certain characters despite the fact that they consider themselves to be good Robin players and know the matchups against the characters they're naming well, not just those who are having trouble against certain characters just because they don't know the matchups well.

Also, would the Robin players on this board agree with me that Robin has an advantage against both Captain Falcon and Charizard?

Merged your thread to a relevant one.

In the process of typing my 'off-the-top-of-my-head' list.

 

[Raziek]

First off:

Falcon beats Robin. -1 probably. Really need to abuse her weakness to Bair/Uair once you get her off-stage, and keep a lot of juggle pressure on with Uair.

Diddy Kong beats her. -1 for sure, probably -2.

Sheik mauls her. -2 for sure.

Fox probably wins. Not sure how hard.

Brawler wins. Probably -1?

I haven't played a good Pika yet, but in theoryworld Pikachu wins for sure. Not sure how hard though.

Rosa wins slightly I feel. Close to even though.

Haven't played one to be sure, but Sonic probably wins.

Yoshi wins for sure. Probably just -1 though.

ZSS might win? Dunno for sure. Probably. Haven't played an amazing one.

Rule of thumb: Fast characters that consistently get in on her zone generally beat Robin.

Falcon can win it if you learn it better, pickup Sheik or Diddy if you want the easy tier-***** route to the win.

 

[Wintropy]

Hi, I am a player who mains two characters: Captain Falcon and Charizard. Between my two mains, I feel that there are only two characters in the roster who I consistently find myself at a disadvantage against, one of whom being Robin. So I'd like all skilled Robin players on this board to name all the characters they find themselves at a disadvantage against, as I need to pick up a character that does well against Robin. Please note that I only want replies from those who are having trouble against certain characters despite the fact that they consider themselves to be good Robin players and know the matchups against the characters they're naming well, not just those who are having trouble against certain characters just because they don't know the matchups well.

Also, would the Robin players on this board agree with me that Robin has an advantage against both Captain Falcon and Charizard?

Can zone with arrows, Guardian Orbitars can reflect if used tactically, quicker on his feet, can juggle and KO with u-air and u-smash

REFLECT! REFLECT! REFLECT! REFLECT! Autoreticle is a good zoning tool, incredibly fast dash, amazing grab combos, can juggle and KO with u-air, shieldgrabs well

Again, spacing, can keep at bay with lasers and gyro, surprisingly strong, can KO at mid-high percents with b-air and d-air

Good at spacing, can close the gap with ease, d-tilt and d-smash are quick and can catch off-guard easily, shieldgrabs well

Zone for days! Cans and clay pigeons can cover a good deal of the stage, can intercept projectiles with Wild Gunmen, strong smashes, decent airgame with f-air and u-air

Can be spaced easily enough, but if he gets into your comfort zone, he's obscenely strong with a reliable dash-grab and powerful punishing options

 

[Raziek]

Gonna have to veto a few of those.

We poop on Dorf. He's easily our best match-up.

Lucina is a trash character and we beat her fairly easily, though I'd say probably only +1.

Pit and ROB I think are probably even.

Haven't played a good Palutena yet to judge for sure, so I won't put an uninformed opinion out.

Duck Hunt I'm undecided on, but I don't think it's any worse than +1 in either direction.

 

[Wintropy]

Gonna have to veto a few of those.

We poop on Dorf. He's easily our best match-up.

Lucina is a trash character and we beat her fairly easily, though I'd say probably only +1.

Pit and ROB I think are probably even.

Haven't played a good Palutena yet to judge for sure, so I won't put an uninformed opinion out.

Duck Hunt I'm undecided on, but I don't think it's any worse than +1 in either direction.

Different strokes, eh? I find them all to be an absolute nightmare, though I guess that boils down to individual skill of myself and the people I've fought.

I'd listen to Raziek, though, he knows what he's talking about. I'm just a tactical newbie and all, pay me no heed~

 

[Demonstormkill]

On a good day I play a good Robin, if not as experienced as some of the others here. In terms of matchups I've played much I'd say the worst (in order) are:

Diddy -

Yoshi - he applies heavy pressure, preventing you from charging thunder or using much arcfire. No spikes through SA, hard to land B-air or smashes -- you can't kill him early.

Sonic - it's not that bad if you use arcthunder to keep his rushdown at bay, but it's hard to avoid passive play. This is similar to the falcon matchup though so you may want to avoid it.

Ones I've played less but that seem bad (in order) are:

Pika - Like Sonic, his size and speed makes magic ineffective. Unlike Sonic, he can approach with a projectile leaving us fewer options and sometimes forcing precise defensive spacing of aerials or risky reads. We do well in the air though, besides offstage.

Sheik - Sheik can rush Robin down pretty effectively, and popular opinion is that its a terrible matchup for us, but in my own experience her size makes her easier to hit than some others, and her lack of killpower is a very big contrast against our abundance of it. My personal experience is that it's not bad at all, but I assume it's just a matter of playing the right one.

Despite some difficulty learning how to play each matchup, the rest of them seem at least close to even so far.

 

[Janno]

so the worst mu ive ever played so far is imo vs fox

you cant hard camp because reflector und laser
but neither can you approach with an aerial, he will just shield and utilt you or with an empty hop or grounded approach because of his dash attack

help me my dear tacticians

 

[Teve31]

I'm having trouble with mario, luigi, palutena, and yoshi. If anyone has any tips or tricks that I can use on these characters please let me know.

 

[Janno]

vs palutena you can abuse forward role. Dont use projectiles too obvious because of REFLECT. and dont get baited into one of her (u) smashes. Like, just dont airdodge.
Stay close range, give her the lsfair und nair. Close range arcfires und normal thunders are the way to go

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Arcfire Palutena's landing. Her reflector is useless at that time.

 

[Janno]

Just played vs one. Her jab can be canceled and is really annoying to Handel. Otherwise i did not
fell anything special. Just outsmart her like a true tactician

 

[Jonarobin]

It's so embarassingly hard to beat Samus as Robin... How on earth do you punish Samus's roll... It seems like in most matchups I'm beaten because all of the projectiles and just deftly rolling (or down b-ing) away out of my reach...

Help?

 

[Silverfox117]

It's so embarassingly hard to beat Samus as Robin... How on earth do you punish Samus's roll... It seems like in most matchups I'm beaten because all of the projectiles and just deftly rolling (or down b-ing) away out of my reach...

Help?

Samus is one of Robins toughest match ups as its one of the only match ups that Changes the way you play Robin. You have to play aggressive dont even consider charging thunder, because samus laser charges faster and goes through all your projectiles (even arcthunder doesnt clink) and kills earlier.

Samus is also better at fighting from the ground with way more potent tilts, faster, and a roll that goes far. Her roll is punishable tho. Fox trot into a roll cancel grab and you can get her as her roll has some decent end lag compared to others. Samus is also dangerous in the air too and is difficult to edge guard. Samus in general is a nice 6/4 over us. I would say this match up is Robins most difficult match up in the entire game, and good thing its a character not used very much.

I feel like we have an easier time fighting shiek then we do Samus.

 

[Jonarobin]

@ Silverfox117 Okay, so after researching a bit what you meant, by Fox trot into a roll cancel grab is dashing forward repeatedly and then rolling forward and pressing A to access a grab? I'm not the most knowledgable about ATs, but I have a little knowledge...

Presuming this is what you meant, what are some good combos and/or followups for grabs, and which grabs are best to use? I tend to use backthrow and downthrow only. Downthrow into Up LSFair doesn't seem to work generally though, and I'm never sure what a good follow up for downthrow is and I usually end up with an airdodged attack...

Thank you for your tips. I absolutely abhorr Samus's charging projectile, I end up just losing with Samus's spamming repeatedly and being unable to get to where they are if the Samus abuses their movement...

 

[Laggalot101]

No idea why you say never charge thunder, Silverfox117. Personally, I think Thunder is vital in this match-up, more specfically Thoron. Thoron blasts right through Samus's missiles (it'll simply phase through the charge shot, so beware!), more-or-less locking her from using them completely for as long as it is charged. If she does fire them, you can punish with Thoron. It's also wonderful if you're chasing her, as it's a great roll-punisher (just make sure you don't use it whenever Samus can roll behind you). After you blast her succesfully, get right to charging your next Thoron, unless you're out of uses. Speaking of rolling, it's a matter of prediction. Usually there's a pattern. If she's approaching the ledge by rolling backwards, be ready to catch the roll towards you with a charged down-smash. Something that's important to know is that Samus is vulnerable at the end of the rolling animation, where she is still in her morph ball. Finally, don't get overeager. Robin is slow so it's key to know which rolls you simply cannot chase.

And if Samus has her projectile charged, I strongly recommend you withhold from chasing. Samus will fire off her projectile eventually. Chasing her gives her far too easy of a time to hit you with it. Don't try anything fancy, just shield or roll the shot when it comes.

The books are wonderful in this match-up. As I recall, your tomes, if Smash thrown, CLANG with Samus's charge shots and does a nice amount of damage if it connects with Samus. If you're not too good at Nosferatu, feel free to deliberatly burn through its uses to get the book. Just make sure you don't distract yourself with it too much or leave yourself open doing so.

Now as for grabs, know that none of Robin's throws ever combo perfectly. All follow-ups are escapable to your opponent. That said, to give you a quick overview of the throws and their utility:

- Forward throw should only be used to get your opponent off a ledge if it can benefit you. Poor knockback and damage.
- Down throw is the most likely to allow follow ups. As said before, no guaranteed combo, so hang below your opponent for a moment before you strike so you can punish the likely airdodge. Note that some characters in particular are likely to retaliate rather than dodge. Doesn't do much damage. I like to follow this up with Levin Bair, personally.
- Up throw is similar to down throw. It sends your opponent a tad higher but also does a bit more damage.
- Finally back throw is your best throw. Doesn't allow follow ups, but does the highest damage and knockback. Can KO at very high %. Also good if you want to distance yourself from your opponent (so you can charge Thunder, for instance)

I hope you'll find this to be of some use to you. All you can do now is practice and experiment, see what works and what doesn't.

 

[Blueman12]

I agree with Raziek on all of his counts a few posts up. Ganon is unfortunately (for them) not exactly difficult to play against. Of course, underestimate a good one and you'll eat punishment like no one's business, and don't chase them off the edge too much as you could fall prey to a ganoncide. Just peruse a book and throw it when you force them offstage, normally that's goodnight for them.

IMO we win against Palutena, just don't attempt to play wallball with the reflect. Plus this might just be me but if you fullhop airdodge th autoreticle shots it leaves us time to make them eat a FSair if you're close enough... or at least an attempt to put them in an unfavourable position.

 

[Silverfox117]

No idea why you say never charge thunder, Silverfox117. Personally, I think Thunder is vital in this match-up, more specfically Thoron. Thoron blasts right through Samus's missiles (it'll simply phase through the charge shot, so beware!), more-or-less locking her from using them completely for as long as it is charged. If she does fire them, you can punish with Thoron. It's also wonderful if you're chasing her, as it's a great roll-punisher (just make sure you don't use it whenever Samus can roll behind you). After you blast her succesfully, get right to charging your next Thoron, unless you're out of uses. Speaking of rolling, it's a matter of prediction. Usually there's a pattern. If she's approaching the ledge by rolling backwards, be ready to catch the roll towards you with a charged down-smash. Something that's important to know is that Samus is vulnerable at the end of the rolling animation, where she is still in her morph ball. Finally, don't get overeager. Robin is slow so it's key to know which rolls you simply cannot chase.

And if Samus has her projectile charged, I strongly recommend you withhold from chasing. Samus will fire off her projectile eventually. Chasing her gives her far too easy of a time to hit you with it. Don't try anything fancy, just shield or roll the shot when it comes.

The books are wonderful in this match-up. As I recall, your tomes, if Smash thrown, CLANG with Samus's charge shots and does a nice amount of damage if it connects with Samus. If you're not too good at Nosferatu, feel free to deliberatly burn through its uses to get the book. Just make sure you don't distract yourself with it too much or leave yourself open doing so.

Now as for grabs, know that none of Robin's throws ever combo perfectly. All follow-ups are escapable to your opponent. That said, to give you a quick overview of the throws and their utility:

- Forward throw should only be used to get your opponent off a ledge if it can benefit you. Poor knockback and damage.
- Down throw is the most likely to allow follow ups. As said before, no guaranteed combo, so hang below your opponent for a moment before you strike so you can punish the likely airdodge. Note that some characters in particular are likely to retaliate rather than dodge. Doesn't do much damage. I like to follow this up with Levin Bair, personally.
- Up throw is similar to down throw. It sends your opponent a tad higher but also does a bit more damage.
- Finally back throw is your best throw. Doesn't allow follow ups, but does the highest damage and knockback. Can KO at very high %. Also good if you want to distance yourself from your opponent (so you can charge Thunder, for instance)

I hope you'll find this to be of some use to you. All you can do now is practice and experiment, see what works and what doesn't.

What i meant by not charging your thunder tome is that its almost pointless in this match up. Samus can charge faster than you, and will harass you till no end. I never said throws lead into things its just some nice damage and can get Samus off stage for a nice elwind spike.
Another reason about not charging thunder is that her laser literally goes through your spells. If you shoot an arc thunder a smart Samus player will shoot you with a power shot every single time. It just isnt worth it. I can see normal thunder being handy due to blocking missiles, but besides that thunder is not going to be useful.
The tome throwing is very, very situational especially when it comes to clanging Samus shot. You holding on to the Tome for that long is just pointless, and it would be much better to use it as a good way to kill and not to clang. That would require a hard read and for what you get some end lag and might be eating a dash attack afterwards. That is not an option to fight Samus at all.

A good Samus will also shoot you with a missile or a power shot if your trying to grab it too. The Samus players I played against. Don't give you time to breathe. They don't give you time to charge thunder, and they are very patient. Your best bet is to be offensive don't let them charge there shot and use arcfire carefully.

Also you mention Thoron being handy. Which i can see it being, but a good samus will not let you charge it at all. Samus out camps you. You have to be the initiator in this fight. Keep yourself mid distance and use Arcfire when the chance arrives. Don't let Samus dictate this battle. Just don't let her breathe. Robin may be slow, but if you pivot dance she could slide across the stage with nair. Well that is how i get around at least.

 

[Silverfox117]

@ Silverfox117 Okay, so after researching a bit what you meant, by Fox trot into a roll cancel grab is dashing forward repeatedly and then rolling forward and pressing A to access a grab? I'm not the most knowledgable about ATs, but I have a little knowledge...

Presuming this is what you meant, what are some good combos and/or followups for grabs, and which grabs are best to use? I tend to use backthrow and downthrow only. Downthrow into Up LSFair doesn't seem to work generally though, and I'm never sure what a good follow up for downthrow is and I usually end up with an airdodged attack...

Thank you for your tips. I absolutely abhorr Samus's charging projectile, I end up just losing with Samus's spamming repeatedly and being unable to get to where they are if the Samus abuses their movement...

A roll cancel grab is where you press roll and immediately press a. It would cancel the roll animation and you just get extra grab length it would require some practice. And Samus is easily are toughest match up. Don't be worried if you are having trouble against her almost NOBODY plays her. Personally in tourneys when there is a Samus i just pick Shiek it isnt worth it.

 

[Wintropy]

As a Palutena player, I think savvy use of spells and generally keeping her smashes at arm's length is the best tactic.

Palutena isn't a rushdown fighter, she needs to read her opponent and react accordingly. You'll need to stay ahead of her and outsmart her for perfect results, but if you're playing well, that should just be your default state of play anyway. Reflect is useful against the Thunder tomes, but because of its charging and storing options, reading it can be tricky, and Palutena will need to react quickly to mitigate the split-second startup that Reflect has and get the shot in. In my experience, that split-second can make or break the move, and good timing makes it all the more difficult to predict.

Arcfire can be reflected too, but since it comes out at an angle, it'll bounce off without hitting you in return. She can counter Robin's relatively slow smashes, but since her counter is extremely situational at best, it's not something to be too worried about.

Palutena's fast on her feet, though, and can cover ground easily. Her grab range is so-so at best, but her d-throw combos into a lot of good options, including f-air and u-air. U-air can juggle and can be a death sentence if Robin is caught dawdling in mid-air or freefalling, so watch out for that. In my experience, you'll seldom be in the air as Robin, if in any way whatsoever, but it's still worth bearing that in mind.

Basically just keep on your toes and do whatever you can to make reading difficult. Switch between Levin Sword and Bronze Sword if you want, switch up those tomes, keep away from those smashes and be wary of her grabs.

 

[Laggalot101]

What i meant by not charging your thunder tome is that its almost pointless in this match up. Samus can charge faster than you, and will harass you till no end. I never said throws lead into things its just some nice damage and can get Samus off stage for a nice elwind spike.
Another reason about not charging thunder is that her laser literally goes through your spells. If you shoot an arc thunder a smart Samus player will shoot you with a power shot every single time. It just isnt worth it. I can see normal thunder being handy due to blocking missiles, but besides that thunder is not going to be useful.
The tome throwing is very, very situational especially when it comes to clanging Samus shot. You holding on to the Tome for that long is just pointless, and it would be much better to use it as a good way to kill and not to clang. That would require a hard read and for what you get some end lag and might be eating a dash attack afterwards. That is not an option to fight Samus at all.

A good Samus will also shoot you with a missile or a power shot if your trying to grab it too. The Samus players I played against. Don't give you time to breathe. They don't give you time to charge thunder, and they are very patient. Your best bet is to be offensive don't let them charge there shot and use arcfire carefully.

Also you mention Thoron being handy. Which i can see it being, but a good samus will not let you charge it at all. Samus out camps you. You have to be the initiator in this fight. Keep yourself mid distance and use Arcfire when the chance arrives. Don't let Samus dictate this battle. Just don't let her breathe. Robin may be slow, but if you pivot dance she could slide across the stage with nair. Well that is how i get around at least.

When I talked about throws, that was directed at Jonarobin. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough with that. But doesn't Samus's recovery, the Screw Attack, just go right through the blasts of Elwind? I seem to recall it doing that.

I maybe also should have made it more clear that Thoron is the main spell here, because again, it blasts through missles, essentially locking their use as safe pressure against you. Of course I don't advise to throw out Arcthunder if Samus has a shot charged up. Heck, if you're at a range where Samus can react in time to throw her shot out, then Arcthunder shouldn't be used in the first place, because at that point it'll get blocked or dodged anyway.

I did not intend the tome throw as a means of countering the charge shot. That's not even what I said in the first place. Rather, what I mean by it is that it is a very safe as well as powerful projectile to use, as it cannot be punished with a charge shot. Even if Samus happens to shoot just as you throw, you won't get hit as it clangs. It's a small, quick and powerful projectile, and I'm currently thinking (though this is theorycraft) that it could aid recovery. I should probably add, I don't believe the Levin Sword clangs, because it is weaker.

You can very quickly grab a tome by quickly jumping backwards and pressing the grab button. That's not even close to enough time to punish. Additionally, if you happen to have Thoron charged, they probably will not even consider it, because then Samus is basically inviting you to punish her with it. She doesn't want to take 18% of free damage if she can help it.

You can definitely charge Thoron, I'm convinced of it. Anytime you send her into the air or off the stage, you can charge Thunder. And if it's really necessary, I think you could also jump off the stage and charge there. You can get a stage of Thunder charged and recover safely. Samus probably also won't be over to you quickly enough to punish you in any capacity (heck, if she does try, that may even be beneficial if the punish doesn't happen, because then you'll be closer to her). If you can get to Arcthunder, you can probably get to Thoron too, because Arcthunder is definitely the hardest stage to reach.

Finally, what is a pivot dance supposed to be? I know what pivots are, I know what dashdancing is and I know what perfect pivoting is, but is pivot dancing something else?

 

[FullMoon]

Sorry for the intrusion, tacticians, but the Greninja boards are going to discuss the Robin MU, so any input from you guys would be appreciated: http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...-palutena-robin-peach-1-19-1-26.369356/page-9

 

[Laggalot101]

I unfortunately don't know much about the Greninja match-up. People don't play him a lot these days. I don't play him myself, either, but I'm gonna play with Greninja for a bit, and hopefully I'll learn a bit more about him that way, because I do want to contribute if I can. I think I could learn a lot from it.

I'm trying to eventually learn all characters to some degree anyway, so this fits pretty well into that goal of mine.

 

[Zeiah92]

Hello. So I need Help on the Pikachu matchup. I fought against a pikachu who was actually good. He would use thunder a lot to stop anything I tried to do and also did a lot of quick attack which stopped a lot of what I was doing. I recently entered training mode against a lvl 9 computer to see how to deal with constant thunder and I learned that forward tilt stops the thunder, However, I still am not sure what to do afterwards and how to stop or counter the quick attack. Thanks in advance.

 

[Silverfox117]

When I talked about throws, that was directed at Jonarobin. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough with that. But doesn't Samus's recovery, the Screw Attack, just go right through the blasts of Elwind? I seem to recall it doing that.

I maybe also should have made it more clear that Thoron is the main spell here, because again, it blasts through missles, essentially locking their use as safe pressure against you. Of course I don't advise to throw out Arcthunder if Samus has a shot charged up. Heck, if you're at a range where Samus can react in time to throw her shot out, then Arcthunder shouldn't be used in the first place, because at that point it'll get blocked or dodged anyway.

I did not intend the tome throw as a means of countering the charge shot. That's not even what I said in the first place. Rather, what I mean by it is that it is a very safe as well as powerful projectile to use, as it cannot be punished with a charge shot. Even if Samus happens to shoot just as you throw, you won't get hit as it clangs. It's a small, quick and powerful projectile, and I'm currently thinking (though this is theorycraft) that it could aid recovery. I should probably add, I don't believe the Levin Sword clangs, because it is weaker.

You can very quickly grab a tome by quickly jumping backwards and pressing the grab button. That's not even close to enough time to punish. Additionally, if you happen to have Thoron charged, they probably will not even consider it, because then Samus is basically inviting you to punish her with it. She doesn't want to take 18% of free damage if she can help it.

You can definitely charge Thoron, I'm convinced of it. Anytime you send her into the air or off the stage, you can charge Thunder. And if it's really necessary, I think you could also jump off the stage and charge there. You can get a stage of Thunder charged and recover safely. Samus probably also won't be over to you quickly enough to punish you in any capacity (heck, if she does try, that may even be beneficial if the punish doesn't happen, because then you'll be closer to her). If you can get to Arcthunder, you can probably get to Thoron too, because Arcthunder is definitely the hardest stage to reach.

Finally, what is a pivot dance supposed to be? I know what pivots are, I know what dashdancing is and I know what perfect pivoting is, but is pivot dancing something else?

I dont understand how you can charge Thoron in this match up is what I'm trying to say, (besides a back throw jumping off and charging is not smart as our recovery is predictable and can get easily spiked by Samus like really easily) and thoron may beat missles, but it loses to charge shot. Charge shot does more damage than Thoron, charges faster and kills earlier. It is a trade that Samus would win every time. I don't know about you, but I hate losing trades, and thoron is a trade that you will lose every single time. Thoron is really weak and is definitely one of the worst of the thunder spells. Thoron does not clang with charge shot.

Robin is not a long range character at all. You shouldn't play her like she is. You will lose to Samus if you play the distance game.

Also book is still very difficult to use and grab when you are getting blasted by missiles, and yes I am aware of how to grab a book in air that doesnt mean you wont get pop shotted when you land. Empty hops are bad and should not be used. Also pivot dancing is when you perfect pivot in both directions and let go the control stick when you jump you kind of glide a little in the air.

Anyways like what I said earlier this bad match up is irrelevant as nobody plays Samus anyway(besides my training partner <_<)

 

[Silverfox117]

Hello. So I need Help on the Pikachu matchup. I fought against a pikachu who was actually good. He would use thunder a lot to stop anything I tried to do and also did a lot of quick attack which stopped a lot of what I was doing. I recently entered training mode against a lvl 9 computer to see how to deal with constant thunder and I learned that forward tilt stops the thunder, However, I still am not sure what to do afterwards and how to stop or counter the quick attack. Thanks in advance.

Pikachu can be tricky, but just block quick attack and let pikachu come to you. Play your game and don't get hit by thunder. Use arcfire to punish pikachu coming at you and that is like a free 18 percent(rough estimation) with arcfire > Levin u-air. If he uses thunder block and punish with arc thunder > u- air that actually kills like at 90 percent too. Be patient with thundershock, and force him to approach with quick attack and punish. Just make pikachu approach, remember he can't kill you with thundershock. Charging will be difficult tho. I hate how Robins charge resets per level. It is a terrible design that makes it much more difficult for Robin to do anything at all.

 

[Laggalot101]

I dont understand how you can charge Thoron in this match up is what I'm trying to say, (besides a back throw jumping off and charging is not smart as our recovery is predictable and can get easily spiked by Samus like really easily) and thoron may beat missles, but it loses to charge shot. Charge shot does more damage than Thoron, charges faster and kills earlier. It is a trade that Samus would win every time. I don't know about you, but I hate losing trades, and thoron is a trade that you will lose every single time. Thoron is really weak and is definitely one of the worst of the thunder spells. Thoron does not clang with charge shot.

Robin is not a long range character at all. You shouldn't play her like she is. You will lose to Samus if you play the distance game.

Also book is still very difficult to use and grab when you are getting blasted by missiles, and yes I am aware of how to grab a book in air that doesnt mean you wont get pop shotted when you land. Empty hops are bad and should not be used. Also pivot dancing is when you perfect pivot in both directions and let go the control stick when you jump you kind of glide a little in the air.

Anyways like what I said earlier this bad match up is irrelevant as nobody plays Samus anyway(besides my training partner <_<)

A few things still leave me wondering.

How is Thoron weak, exactly? 18% is really good damage for an unstoppable projectile. Or do you mean knockback? Because then I get what you mean. Also, I get that Thoron and Charge Shot phase right through eachother. However, Thoron comes out fairly quickly, and combined with the fact that Thoron's main purpose is locking usage of missiles, this shouldn't be much of a problem. At least in my mind.

I don't think we will be coming to a meaningful agreement on the rest anytime soon, so I request that we just agree to disagree on that.

 

[Jonarobin]

The question is, is there really time to charge Thoron?
The Samus's I've fought (I've fought none recently though) have always used the long distance game with missiles and charge shots galore, leaving me no time to charge. I do think Thoron could be a good punish for missiles, but I don't think it's really going to stop that Samus from getting back on their feet and going back to shooting you with missiles, and you're back to square one...

Samus is just a bad matchup for us...

I wonder if that matchup would change on non-flat stages, though...
I mostly play for glory, so I haven't had the chance to play Battlefield and such stages too much in these new games.

 

[Laggalot101]

Hmm. Maybe I haven't fought enough competent/competent enough Samus's out there. But personally, playing as Robin I've managed against Samus pretty well up to this point. That includes getting to Thoron. I find that once you tip the scales against Samus (pun intended) in your favor, it tips pretty hard.

And yes, Robin benefits greatly from platforms. Final Destination is among Robin's lesser stages. If you would like more details, Raziek's created a stage guide for Robin, so I suggest you give that a look.

 

[Zeiah92]

Pikachu can be tricky, but just block quick attack and let pikachu come to you. Play your game and don't get hit by thunder. Use arcfire to punish pikachu coming at you and that is like a free 18 percent(rough estimation) with arcfire > Levin u-air. If he uses thunder block and punish with arc thunder > u- air that actually kills like at 90 percent too. Be patient with thundershock, and force him to approach with quick attack and punish. Just make pikachu approach, remember he can't kill you with thundershock. Charging will be difficult tho. I hate how Robins charge resets per level. It is a terrible design that makes it much more difficult for Robin to do anything at all.

Thanks! I will take this into consideration next time I fight a Pikachu. Now that I think about it, in that match against pikachu I was kind of impatient and desperately trying to get in. I need to change that not just for this but for other matchups.

 

[Silverfox117]

The question is, is there really time to charge Thoron?
The Samus's I've fought (I've fought none recently though) have always used the long distance game with missiles and charge shots galore, leaving me no time to charge. I do think Thoron could be a good punish for missiles, but I don't think it's really going to stop that Samus from getting back on their feet and going back to shooting you with missiles, and you're back to square one...

Samus is just a bad matchup for us...

I wonder if that matchup would change on non-flat stages, though...
I mostly play for glory, so I haven't had the chance to play Battlefield and such stages too much in these new games.

This exactly <3. Good thing Samus doesnt exist in tourneys or I probably wouldn't win any.

 

[Silverfox117]

Thanks! I will take this into consideration next time I fight a Pikachu. Now that I think about it, in that match against pikachu I was kind of impatient and desperately trying to get in. I need to change that not just for this but for other matchups.

Yeah you should never be impatient with Robin. Here is my motto(If you are within forward tilt range you are too close, if you are out of roll cancel grab range then you are too far). Keep that in mind when playing Robin. Also against fast characters always run backwards and tilt Arcfire you will create enough space you probably wont get hit and if they are rushing they get hit by it and its like a free 24+ percent with levin u-air.

 

[Raziek]

Goodness gracious. I read a lot of really bizzare things like 'never charge thunder against Samus' up there.

I don't have time right this second, but I'll be back to correct and explain that match-up later today.

 

[Laggalot101]

(If you are within forward tilt range you are too close, if you are out of roll cancel grab range then you are too far)

Question, do you mean Robin's F-tilt or the opponent's F-tilt (I guess Robin's, but just wanna make sure)? And what do you do if you find yourself too close? Do you throw out jabs? Or maybe a shothopped Nair? A grab? Or do you maybe run or roll away? I'm very curious. What's your preferred action in this situation?