Work on new code: 16 values

[Deleted member]

there is a code out there that has 20 or so lines, and for each 2 you add, you can modify the knockback on a specific move. speed of moves would also be a nice one, but that probably takes up a lot more space.


yay 500th post

 

[Almas]

Nono paprika - we have 6 things that can be modified, with up to 16 possible values that each of those things can take.

 

[Deleted member]

oh, ok. but if whe used a second block of 32 bits, that would give us 6+8=14 things right?

 

[KishPrime]

there is a code out there that has 20 or so lines, and for each 2 you add, you can modify the knockback on a specific move. speed of moves would also be a nice one, but that probably takes up a lot more space.


yay 500th post

Is the code reliable? Are all the moves mapped out? Does it work for a move or for a hitbox, considering that some moves hit twice, or in different spots?

Also, this again makes it a huge priority to focus on the general settings way more than an individual move's properties. We're going to fill up the space so fast.

What was the resolution on stale moves, are they gone completely? While I agree with this in principle, I think that they've always been a part of Smash and should still be included, albeit 25% of the original amount.

 

[Almas]

We noticed that with 25% of the original amount, stale moves became somewhat unnoticable.

You can, however, play with no stale moves but the fresh bonus active (any move which you haven't used in the past 9 moves gains a bonus to knockback/damage).

Said code (for move modification) hasn't been produced yet, but we're pretty confident about it's functionality. I'm going to start looking at it once I get a couple other things out of the way.

 

[KishPrime]

I'm not sure I like that, I'll have to think about it some more. 9 moves is a long time to wait for a bonus like that...but I guess it might be ok.

The point is that it should be relatively unnoticeable. That's not a problem. But I wasn't using 25% as an absolute, just an estimate. 30-35% may work too.

Let me define a standard. I think if half of the moves in the queue are the same, then that move should hit for roughly 10% less in knockback and 20% in damage. I don't know if they can even be separated, but we can round it to 15% for each.

The reason for the difference is that you don't want to affect combos with stale moves, that's almost silly. In Melee, it didn't make a huge difference with stale moves for combos, but you could see the damage amount drop. This is an ideal solution to a stale moves property, even though admittedly I agree that it is a dumb mechanic.

 

[Deleted member]

almas, would it be possible to shorten the number of moves the stale move system keeps track of?
so instead of 10 maybe like 5/6 and then use 50% reduction on that?

 

[shanus]

I'm not sure I like that, I'll have to think about it some more. 9 moves is a long time to wait for a bonus like that...but I guess it might be ok.

The point is that it should be relatively unnoticeable. That's not a problem. But I wasn't using 25% as an absolute, just an estimate. 30-35% may work too.

Let me define a standard. I think if half of the moves in the queue are the same, then that move should hit for roughly 10% less in knockback and 20% in damage. I don't know if they can even be separated, but we can round it to 15% for each.

The reason for the difference is that you don't want to affect combos with stale moves, that's almost silly. In Melee, it didn't make a huge difference with stale moves for combos, but you could see the damage amount drop. This is an ideal solution to a stale moves property, even though admittedly I agree that it is a dumb mechanic.

The main problem your forgetting is uptilts. If you have played any of the recent renditions with higher gravity, etc, you should see that uptilts are a major problem. If you are reducing knockback & damage, uptilt spamming is only going to get worse (especially on our newly defined fastfallers which already can be changrabbed, etcetc).

The ideal solution is NO knockback reduction whatsoever, but with a semi aggressive damage reduction on the now stale move. However, no-one has figured out how to do that yet so we have used no stale moves with a fresh bonus as an agreed upon value until a better solution could be written.

 

[KishPrime]

Can I then be stupid and ask for the reasoning behind gravity changes at all? Are we just trying to speed up the game?

EDIT: Also, can't you Smash-DI off utilt locks?

 

[shanus]

Can I then be stupid and ask for the reasoning behind gravity changes at all? Are we just trying to speed up the game?

The gravity changes don't just act as a way to speed up the game, but also serve as a mechanic to open an entire new world of combos. When you try it, it opens up an entirely new mode to link together moves which originally served no real purpose besides hit & run. Additionally, it also allows you to diversify your moveset as well into a whole new realm such that mixing up link moves in a combo is now much more of a reality. It enhances tech–chasing as well by giving characters faster jumps at less height and overall just enhances the metagame drastically.

Its beyond fun speed activate.


I recommend when you get the time to give the latest codeset a good few hours of playtime so you can really catch up on the feeling of it all. All I recommend is just remember the values for falcon and wolf are the two major outliers right now. That and as mentioned below, we were a little too heavy handed on our first try lol





Also, we may need to divulge the public on our backroom sooner rather than later:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218090&page=5

 

[The Cape]

Wolf and Falcon are definete outliers, but who else felt flatout wrong?

Sheik and Toon Link come to mind off the top of my head.

 

[MookieRah]

Can I then be stupid and ask for the reasoning behind gravity changes at all? Are we just trying to speed up the game?

I'm not going to give it any fancy words. IMO the gravity changes were to speed up the game. I just took it a step further to try to bring back the floaty characters and fast fallers like how things were in melee. I honestly think to a degree that I created a monster, because the gravities are too high IMO. I think fast fallers should have a 1.2 grav instead of 1.3, the normal characters should have a 1.1 grav instead of 1.2, and the floaties should all be normal grav instead of 1.1. If you adjust the fast falls of each group so that they can all shffl ok, then that should be good. A good example of how effective that can be is DK, cause he should be normal gravity with a massive fast fall and he is ****. As it stands the amount of gravity going on right now allows for some really stupid things.

 

[The Cape]

The grav definetly feels a bit too heavy, I agree.

 

[shanus]

The grav definetly feels a bit too heavy, I agree.

Ya it is, but some gravity does definitely open up a whole new world of options.


Yeah Cape, TL and Sheik as well (I didnt play sheik much as she crashes my game too much). I think it has anything to do with fire that crashes sheik randomly. She has crashed for me against mario, luigi, and zelda during a din's fire. I should test olimar and see if a red pikmin causes a crash too (and if firefoxes cause it as well)

 

[The Cape]

Why does Sheik crash the game anyway?

So strange.

 

[shanus]

Why does Sheik crash the game anyway?

So strange.

Something to do with SPunits merger codes. We havent heard from him and a while and are waiting on a fix from him with it.

 

[KishPrime]

I see no reason why the game had to be sped up, since the mechanics could have been fixed in other ways, and thus I am automatically opposed to it. That said, I'll still give it a fair trial. I think I'm outvoted anyway.

I don't mean to argue over something for no reason, but I guess it depends on what you want out of Brawl+. At this point, I think I have to accept that we're not going for just a generally improved version of Brawl, we're going for a total makeover. The difference is that a total makeover would never be accepted as tournament standard among regular Brawlers (which include 99% of the people that play the game), but a generally improved version might be. Shrug. I guess two versions are possible.

 

[Deleted member]

yeah, we might release a character balancing pack later with no modifications to the rest of the physics (except tripping maybe)

 

[Dark Sonic]

The difference is that a total makeover would never be accepted as tournament standard among regular Brawlers (which include 99% of the people that play the game), but a generally improved version might be.

I disagree. I got a few of my brawl friends to try brawl+ (and with quite a few changes mind you) and they genuinely liked it. At first they didn't like the NASL, since they were getting edgeguarded a lot more. But after the situation turn around and they were the ones doing the edgeguards, their opinions changed. It seems to me that they didn't like most of the features when they were being used against them, but when they learned how to take advantage of the features themselves they loved it.

In addition most of my melee friends enjoyed brawl+ as well. As soon as they got combo'd...they realized how much fun it would be to do it themselves (unlike the brawl players, who had to experience it first).

I mean, you're not going to attract the extremes from either group, but people near the middle seem to really like brawl+, and the project as a whole.

 

[leafgreen386]

Hey guys, something I'd like to bring up that may be important for when we're editing the fall speeds, and that is the way hitstun is calculated. The hitstun formula in the game is:

h = m*l / d

M is a universal multiplier (the current value we use in the hitstun code; default of .4) and L is the launch speed of the move being used. D is a division constant that varies depending on the character. From testing, it appears that there are 5 different values given to characters for this - 32, 33, 34, 35, and 36 - where the higher values are given to characters with higher fall accelerations. This is presumably to prevent characters with high fall accelerations from getting combo'd from here to infinity. The thing is, when we increased the gravity and the hitstun, these values remained the same. Why is this a problem? Because we made it easier to combo... and then we made it easier to combo. When we were giving all characters an equal boost in gravity, things still scaled the same. We could change the universal hitstun multiplier to keep the hitstun apparent yet fair. However, when you're making characters that you want to be "fast fallers" fall so much faster while giving them the same hitstun as a character who floats in the air forever, there is a clear problem here. And there are characters with high fall accelerations that were just not made into "fast fallers" in mookie's set.

Now, I think we can do one of two things to make this fair.

1) Just make all characters have the same gravity setting with a few exceptions, and just adjust their sh for it. This is probably the easiest, and if almas's first release was really just a global 1.2 fall speed modifier then I think this is probably our best bet. Characters like fox were clearly falling faster than characters like sheik, which I think really emphasizes how the game already had difference in fall speed, and that the multiplier attached to it just wasn't high enough to be really noticeable. Setting specific groups may just leave us with a relatively homogenized cast instead of having a wide range of fall speeds.

2) We try and harness the division constant, and set every character with the value we see as most appropriate. We would probably also be able to expand outside of these 5 numbers, so we could have a larger variation in the game if we deem it necessary. Also, in the light of this, if we were going to stick with the different gravities for different groups of characters thing, we would also want each gravity group to have their own associated division constant.

Personally, I like the first option better, and I think we should just give special gravities to the characters who need it.