Wolf Matchup Discussion

[Ken Neth]

Wolf

Discuss.

 

[misterpimp5757]

those lazers are crap.......thats it lol.

but when u are recovering it gets hard cuz those bairs can get you out and he jumps pretty high as well.

i think its a hard matchup overall.

 

[Shadow_of_Link]

Wolf can chain bairs against you, and his reflector can disable mines with it's split second of invincibility. Can't really say much else, since I play wifi.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

As a wolf user, I can tell you what I HATE about Snakes. It's mainly those tilts and explosive spam. Snake's dsmash can be taken care of easily with a laser. Grenades are annoying, but if a Wolf plays well, they're easy to get out of. I would bait Wolf's into grabbing them and then shield to make him drop it.

Overall, from my perspective, powersheild, techchase and spam explosives. Make the field hell for all wolfs. Edgeguarding is often difficult to face as a Wolf against a Snake who's planted explosives behind him and is spamming upsmash.

Mortar sliding is hilarious to me. I always look to grab the snake or shoot laser at them, so they stop doing it.

Can't tell you much else.

 

[Tero.]

Bad Wolfs tend to spam smashes, punish them with grabs and tilts oos.
Learn to powershield lasers, it helps a lot in this Match-Up.
Edgeguarding Wolf is essential.

I'm going to play a few matches with Snake against my crewmates Wolf soon, then I'm going to give more and better feedback.

 

[napZzz]

wolf vs. snake is icky ._.

Lazors really screw up snakes ground momentum. His aerials are gay and kinda hard to punish. He ***** snake off stage too -__-

 

[Ishiey]

Personally, it's just about even. Snake has the advantage on stage, wolf can't do too much besides punish, shine counter, or space SH aerials. Luckily, wolf doesn't have far too much trouble getting snake offstage (or keeping him there), and an unteched dthrow at high %s will leave snake in a fairly bad position. Snake can kill lower, so wolf needs to compensate by going all-out with bair once Snake gets offstage.

 

[Lawlmahbawls]

I really have never faced a good Wolf so I have barely any input.

Only tidbit I can think of is at higher percents, you can SDI and tech Wolf's F-Smash and avoid the killer hitbox.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I believe the match-up is fairly even because both edgeguard each other very well and combat each other fairly well on the ground.

Although, I think that snake has the slight favor in this match up. The blaster range is small, yet a large hitbox. It is also slow and can be easily powershielded making it not much of a threat. Then because of this Snake will out camp wolf. The only problem then would be reading wolf's movements as they flow pretty well from ground to aerial upon approaching. Bair approaches are nearly very difficult to punish.

But once you get a hold of how the person plays with wolf all of the things are easy to take care of as your tilts out range most of wolf's attacks on the ground and take jab priority (I think) over certain aerial approaches.

At worst match-up is 50-50 at best 55-45 snake.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

After playing a bunch of Snakes recently I have to agree that this match-up is about even. Wolf can really limit Snakes options (Laser stops mortar slide; fsmash punishes ftilt; Wolf has a good tech roll so dthrow tech chases are difficult; Wolf's harder to kill than many other characters; he can spike through the upB etc) but Snake has more "natural" advantages: He's heavier, has more KO power and has more priority on the ground (Wolfs priority on the ground isn't even that good...and priority doesn't exist in the air). Wolfs advantages are a lot more "technical" and depend more on skill than Snakes advantages (like good spacing on Wolfs bair being unpunishable for Snake). That's why Snake ***** bad Wolves but has an unusually hard time against good Wolves (considering that Snake has no bad match-up's actually). Here are some random tipps:

- If Wolf shields the first hit of Snakes ftilt, do not use the 2nd hit. If he shields it he gets a guaranteed fsmash.
- Don't stay too close to the edge. If Wolf dthrows you at the edge he can catch you off guard and you might have to recover close to the edge - Wolf can spike Snake then.
- Don't use your utilt too early. Wolf is hard to KO through the ceiling and good DI can let him survive it sometimes. A stale utilt isn't a good thing against Wolf.
- Pokemon Stadium 1 seems to be a good counterpick stage against Wolf - the ledges are bad for his recovery and the stage seems to support Snakes camping more than Wolfs.

Bad Wolfs tend to spam smashes, punish them with grabs and tilts oos.
Learn to powershield lasers, it helps a lot in this Match-Up.
Edgeguarding Wolf is essential.

I'm going to play a few matches with Snake against my crewmates Wolf soon, then I'm going to give more and better feedback.

You should've used Snake vs me this weekend

 

[IxxI]

Haha, Gheb.
I love the sig.
XD

Especially the thread.

Edit: Against wolf, cooked nades' are fun. =]

 

[Panix]

45:55 snake.

there are two types of wolf.

a bad one that stays on the ground

and a good one that camps with lasers and stays in the air spaming bairs.

if your vrsing the first one. its 70:30 snake (lol)

if your vrsing the good one id say it's almost even. snakes got great ground game, wolfs tilts and smash's are all punishable by snakes f-tilt and u-tilt. (speically F-smash)

I can't say much on this match up, but because i main snake and use wolf here and there, I know that wolf has fun with snake off stage, and snake has fun with wolf on stage.

Also Edit : CAMPPPPARRRR SNAKKEEE

 

[DarkLouis331]

Being a Wolf user (and occasional Snake), Snake edgeguards Wolf really well. His neutral air gets me all the time when I try to recover without grabbing the edge...and if Wolf does grab the ledge, Snake has his grenades, nikita, and up smash.

And you guys do well on the ground against Wolf. You just have to watch out for Wolf's fsmash, shield and punish it with your tilts and neutral a.

 

[Tero.]

Ok I have a bit more stuff to add:

First of all, Snake ***** bad Wolfs, period. But at high level this MU gets more even.
If the Wolf tends to spam laggy moves (like fsmash) punish him hard (Snake can punish way better than Wolf)

Wolf is faster than you and is good in the air while Snake has bad aerial mobility.
Snake can rack up % faster (tilts, nades, techchase), lives longer and will finish Wolf earlier than Wolf finishs him. And he has more range in general (with a few exceptions like Fsmash lol)

You can't outcamp him because of his shine and he has a hard time outcamping you (but he still does better at caming than you, so don't be too defensive).
Don't approach with Mortar Slide, he'll just blaster you out of it.

Be aware of good spacing. If he spaces his bair correctly you can't punish him (oos), however he can punish you with Fsmash if he shields your tilts (don't spam ftilt, or at least the seccond hit, on his shield).
Wolf dthrow will get you in a really bad position if he grabs you near the edge, so avoid being there. He will most likely try to edgeguard you (bair/dair/dsmash if you're near the edge) to get his kills, so be creative while recovering.

Summary:
- Don't get edgeguarded
- Don't try to camp him
- Don't ftilt his shield
- Punish him hard for laggy stuff
- Play a safe ground game and don't try to face Wolf in the air

MU ratio:
50/50 or 55/45 Snake, not more tho

Good Stages:

• Halberd
• Lylat Cruise

Bad Stages:

• Rainbow Cruise
• Jungle Japes

- Tero

 

[Bladewing]

I actually have a hard time against wolf for some reason. That dsmash and bair of his is just way too good and I get really annoyed by them sometimes. I definitely agree that its about even. It may even be exactly even.

 

[luke_atyeo]

mmm its a tough matchup cause a lot of the stuff that works for sanke against other people wont work against wolf, the sooner you figure that out in the mathup the better, just play snake a little different (using the advice from the above posters) and I reckon you'll do fine.

 

[ArcPoint]

Wolf sucks, Snake is top tier. 90:10.


But really though,this matchup is....weird.

Snake players, you are allowed to Mortar slide, Wolf players aren't going to predict it right everytime, just acknowledge that Wold does have an option that beats it out.

Also, if any of you are having trouble beating the Bair monster, just try Ftilt, the second hit goes right through Bair, you just have to time it right. Or Utilt, that works as well. For the most part, yeah, I'd recommend staying on the ground. Placing nades well, that's a pain for Wolf if you do it right.

Also, Snake's Bair > Wolf's recovery. Wolf's pretty screwed on that one. Side B and up B both get beaten out by Bair, so yeah, try to use that to edgeguard and you'll be gimping in no time. Uhm yeah, the vast majority of his ground game is punishable. Ftilt, Utilt, Dtilt, smashes. (Though beware, Usmash has less lag than you'd think)

Tips for when you're getting juggled: THe standard mixup between Airdoddge and Bair. But what you can also do is B-reverse grenades, Candy does that to me and it's so unpunishable. Ordinarily I'd do a Fsmash or something, but then you have the grenade to worry about (Though, if the Snake spaces it so that he's in range of just the tip of Fsmash... just be aware)

If Wolf does happen to get you with a Dthrow off the ledge... JUST GET BACK TO THE LEDGE. What even good Snake players do at first: Double jump, airdodge into the ground. Just a little food for thought: Airdodging into the ground is a free Dsmash for Wolf. A charged Dsmash will kill sooner than you'd think.

Snake has generally all the options he needs to get around Wolf's aerial crap. Although be aware of retreating Fair (Big hitbox + Sends you upwards, which is Snake's favorite place to be, and it can be retreated) ALTHOUGH. I recall Candy punishing my retreating Fair with a dash attack, whether that's legitimate or not... I'm not sure. I might be able to shield. I might be able to retreat it alittle farther, but I thought I'd let you guys know of the option. But yeah, when in being juggled positions, make use of your double jump, make use of your Fair, and make use of B-reversals.

And last but not least, airdodging into the ground is NOT a smart move. Free hit X_X. Or grab.

Overall, I'd say this matchup is 90:10 in favor of the better player, that 10 for when crap happens.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Overall, I'd say this matchup is 90:10 in favor of the better player, that 10 for when crap happens.

Not sure if you are joking or not at the end, but if your not. We cannot judge match-ups 90:10 using the general idea that favor goes to the better player. It's obvious the better player would end up winning.

The match-ups are based around the assumption that both players will play at the same skill level and that skill level will be high. We look at what the brawl characters strengths and weaknesses are in comparison with each other to deteremine the match-up. Which you ended up doing. The number and overall justification for the number doesn't really make much sense to me.

 

[Tero.]

Not sure if you are joking or not at the end, but if your not. We cannot judge match-ups 90:10 using the general idea that favor goes to the better player. It's obvious the better player would end up winning.

The match-ups are based around the assumption that both players will play at the same skill level and that skill level will be high. We look at what the brawl characters strengths and weaknesses are in comparison with each other to deteremine the match-up. Which you ended up doing. The number and overall justification for the number doesn't really make much sense to me.

I think it's just other words for saying: That Match-Up is fairly neutral.

Wolf sucks, Snake is top tier. 90:10.


But really though,this matchup is....weird.

Snake players, you are allowed to Mortar slide, Wolf players aren't going to predict it right everytime, just acknowledge that Wold does have an option that beats it out.

Also, if any of you are having trouble beating the Bair monster, just try Ftilt, the second hit goes right through Bair, you just have to time it right. Or Utilt, that works as well. For the most part, yeah, I'd recommend staying on the ground. Placing nades well, that's a pain for Wolf if you do it right.

Also, Snake's Bair > Wolf's recovery. Wolf's pretty screwed on that one. Side B and up B both get beaten out by Bair, so yeah, try to use that to edgeguard and you'll be gimping in no time. Uhm yeah, the vast majority of his ground game is punishable. Ftilt, Utilt, Dtilt, smashes. (Though beware, Usmash has less lag than you'd think)

Tips for when you're getting juggled: THe standard mixup between Airdoddge and Bair. But what you can also do is B-reverse grenades, Candy does that to me and it's so unpunishable. Ordinarily I'd do a Fsmash or something, but then you have the grenade to worry about (Though, if the Snake spaces it so that he's in range of just the tip of Fsmash... just be aware)

If Wolf does happen to get you with a Dthrow off the ledge... JUST GET BACK TO THE LEDGE. What even good Snake players do at first: Double jump, airdodge into the ground. Just a little food for thought: Airdodging into the ground is a free Dsmash for Wolf. A charged Dsmash will kill sooner than you'd think.

Snake has generally all the options he needs to get around Wolf's aerial crap. Although be aware of retreating Fair (Big hitbox + Sends you upwards, which is Snake's favorite place to be, and it can be retreated) ALTHOUGH. I recall Candy punishing my retreating Fair with a dash attack, whether that's legitimate or not... I'm not sure. I might be able to shield. I might be able to retreat it alittle farther, but I thought I'd let you guys know of the option. But yeah, when in being juggled positions, make use of your double jump, make use of your Fair, and make use of B-reversals.

And last but not least, airdodging into the ground is NOT a smart move. Free hit X_X. Or grab.

Overall, I'd say this matchup is 90:10 in favor of the better player, that 10 for when crap happens.

Good stuff.
I agree with most of it, but srsly ... Snakes Fair sucks, lol.
I guess you mean Bair anyway.

 

[Underload]

I've only got two things to add to this discussion.

1. Never counterpick a flat stage. There has to be some kind of obstruction or platform you can resort to. My personal choice is to counterpick Lylat Cruise, even though Snake can get gimped once in a while, and always control all 3 platforms. A mine on one, C4 on another, and your *** on the 3rd. He can only reach you with his aerials or upsmash, and if he tries to retreat and fire off lasers, he has to hop them, which is when you can punish with your explosives. Whenever Wolf actually approaches, just tilt them. Makes the matchup much easier.

2. For the love of god, control the center of the stage. If you can set some grenades, C4, mines, and mortars up in the center portion of a map, it makes your matchup so much easier. The inward pressure will send Wolf outward, vastly limiting his options. Your goal here is to get him off the ledge, and force him to use his up special. Once he resorts to that, all you need to do is quick-edgehog, which I'm assuming everyone here knows.

 

[DarkLouis331]

Based on alot of my experience...I think this MU should be 55:45 in Snake's favor.

 

[hundreds of utilts]

wolf ain't as easily gimped as people would like to believe

 

[Panix]

wolf ain't as easily gimped as people would like to believe

lol yes he is.

single jump, bair, double jump, bair. 70% of the time = gimped wolf.

also having c4 waitting at the ledge of the stage makes it to fun.

 

[Vorguen]

Vs Wolf, since you guys have covered a lot, I make sure to recover high always. Wolf can Spike you and B-air you to hell easily when you are trying to cypher back. If I am low, I will blow myself up and recover as high as possible. The extra damage from the C4 does not matter next to how easily Wolf can gimp you if you are low.

 

[Ambient_Horizon]

Vs Wolf, since you guys have covered a lot, I make sure to recover high always. Wolf can Spike you and B-air you to hell easily when you are trying to cypher back. If I am low, I will blow myself up and recover as high as possible. The extra damage from the C4 does not matter next to how easily Wolf can gimp you if you are low.

Almost anyone can gimp Snake easily when he's Cyphering too low though o_0

I used to have a lot of trouble with Wolf until I picked him up to see why. He's not so bad. He's easy to gimp using Bair and Nair. His smashes come out fast but have a lot of ending lag and are pretty easy to see coming. If you know the distance on F_Smash its way too easy to either shield drop and a nade and watch him attack into it or just block and punish with a tilt. Bair is nasty but only when you're being juggled in the air really. Watch out for the Reflector not so much because it reflects moreso because Wolf players like to try to get inside your range, stun you with a Shine and then follow up with a D-Smash. I hate his Blaster since you cant prone under it. Most Wolf players like to spam it on Snakes too. If you time if right though you can chuck a grenade so that it explodes in their face when they shoot off the Blaster. On the flip side Blaster shots can make your Grenades explode if your face if you throw em too late. Its best to cook em and Shield drop em. Wolfs don't have much in the way of aerial approaches other than SHFF Bairs and U-Tilt and F-Tilt can beat it. Mortarsliding can really screw Wolf up just don't overdo it or you'll either be eating Blasters or Smashes. The name of the game here is just baiting him and punishing him for his laggy smashes. He'll use them at some point. Wolf's KO power comes from Bair and his Smashes mostly.

 

[Turbo Ether]

lol yes he is.

single jump, bair, double jump, bair. 70% of the time = gimped wolf.

also having c4 waitting at the ledge of the stage makes it to fun.

Cool, you live in NJ. Please come to a tournament and gimp my Wolf easily, thx.

 

[Panix]

Cool, you live in NJ. Please come to a tournament and gimp my Wolf easily, thx.

Dosn't prove anything, You might be more skilled as a wolf player, playing aginst snakes and such. but your average wolf does get gimped very easily.

If you want then ill satisfiy your ego and play you at VC 3

 

[SamuraiPanda]

This is most definitely 55:45 or 60:40 in Snake's favor. Having played often with one of the best Wolf players, Omniswell, we've discussed the matchup in many ways. Simply put, no matter what factors there are in this matchup, there is one thing that will always make this at least slightly in Snake's favor: Wolf struggles to KO Snake. Wolf's smashes do a mediocre job of KO'ing Snake, so he has to use a fresh bair or fair to get him. Wolf needs his bair to make this a playable matchup, so that leaves his fair, which isn't the easiest thing to land, nor is it as powerful as the bair. Sure, there are a few other attacks Wolf can use here and there, but none are very consistent.

 

[Ussi]

Dosn't prove anything, You might be more skilled as a wolf player, playing aginst snakes and such. but your average wolf does get gimped very easily.

If you want then ill satisfiy your ego and play you at VC 3

You always take match ups at highest levels of play. There are no "average" players here...

 

[Turbo Ether]

Dosn't prove anything, You might be more skilled as a wolf player, playing aginst snakes and such. but your average wolf does get gimped very easily.

If you want then ill satisfiy your ego and play you at VC 3

It's not about ego. I am skeptical of you're statement, so i'm asking you to prove it, simply by playing me.

This is most definitely 55:45 or 60:40 in Snake's favor. Having played often with one of the best Wolf players, Omniswell, we've discussed the matchup in many ways. Simply put, no matter what factors there are in this matchup, there is one thing that will always make this at least slightly in Snake's favor: Wolf struggles to KO Snake. Wolf's smashes do a mediocre job of KO'ing Snake, so he has to use a fresh bair or fair to get him. Wolf needs his bair to make this a playable matchup, so that leaves his fair, which isn't the easiest thing to land, nor is it as powerful as the bair. Sure, there are a few other attacks Wolf can use here and there, but none are very consistent.

Hmm, I still think a fresh Dsmash is still the most efficient way to KO Snake, unless you're Fairing the Snake really high up, I guess. Depending on how you knock him off stage, a spike out of cypher is sometime possible too, for an earlier kill, so it shouldn't be completely disregarded.

You always take match ups at highest levels of play.

Exactly this.

 

[Panix]

You always take match ups at highest levels of play. There are no "average" players here...

Alright, If you see it as this then let me put it in a simpler term.

I, as a mediocre snake, might not be able to gimp you because i only have about 2 years of smash experience under my belt and less then a year in brawl. But, in the highest levels of play, i bet players whos metagame are at it's peak with snake have a easy time gimping wolf. his recovery is far to limited.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Snake isn't really the best at edgeguarding. Gimping Wolf is possible, but not "easy" or "common" by any means for Snake.

Unless you count edgehogging as gimping (which it isn't), because that happens to Wolf quite often.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I agree with samuraipanda, snake's ability to get gimps is limited. Start up lag on the UpB and SideB is minimal for Wolf. Timing is difficult to hit the SideB with. I suppose snake could try to get the gimp by getting a Bair.

 

[Panix]

I agree with samuraipanda, snake's ability to get gimps is limited. Start up lag on the UpB and SideB is minimal for Wolf. Timing is difficult to hit the SideB with. I suppose snake could try to get the gimp by getting a Bair.

I don't know what you mean, his Up+B has a large start-up lag. at least a 1/2-1 second. his side b has a one way trajectory, and you can usually read what a wolf is about to recover with by the angel he takes before he try's for the recover. I might be wrong, but I don't have problems gimping wolf with a mine on the stage and a well placed bair.

Edit: I also realize that snakes jumping off stage for a gimp is very uncommon, But to me its pretty useful, his Bair can KO at around 70% when off stage. It's a hit or miss, but to be a good player you have to either be 100% sure about something or take a huge risk that can change the tide of war.

 

[ArcPoint]

This is most definitely 55:45 or 60:40 in Snake's favor. Having played often with one of the best Wolf players, Omniswell, we've discussed the matchup in many ways. Simply put, no matter what factors there are in this matchup, there is one thing that will always make this at least slightly in Snake's favor: Wolf struggles to KO Snake. Wolf's smashes do a mediocre job of KO'ing Snake, so he has to use a fresh bair or fair to get him. Wolf needs his bair to make this a playable matchup, so that leaves his fair, which isn't the easiest thing to land, nor is it as powerful as the bair. Sure, there are a few other attacks Wolf can use here and there, but none are very consistent.

People airdodge into the ground fairly consistently... shielded Ftilt also leads to a Dsmash. Mis spaced Utilt shielded leads to a Dsmash. Ledgehops (Dropping then shorthopping) leads to a Dsmash, shielded aerials (I'm thinking Bair) lead to Dsmash... there are a lot of things. Just gotta avoid the nades...those are rather annoying... you just gotta be smart about it. I told Omniswell about punishing airdodges into the ground by Fsmash/Dsmash and the entire concept was new to him, so yeah...
---

And to those who think Wolf is easy to gimp: There are several factors. Side B and Up B may have startup lag, but it's nothing that you can actually REACT to. You have to predict it in order to get it off. What some Snakes do against me is run off and Bair expecting a Side B. Guess what? I just wait and do an angled Up B. Or maybe, if they're predicting the angled up B, I wait even more and do a vertical up B (easily edgehogged... but hey, they're stuck in their Bair animation =D ) Also if the Wolf player is predicting the Bair (and the Snake player actually follows through with the Bair) then recovering high (Soi that you're in the air before you hit the ledge/stage ) actually is an option. However if the Snake player just baits that high recovery by jumping out... then good job to the Snake player lol. So yeah, it's not that simple, like anything it requires reading abilities.

Oh, and you can also DI Snake's Bair up so that you don't die =) If I recall correctly, I've survived Bairs at 100+ percent off the stage because of good DI. Which puts me in a high position so I can recover properly. It may not gimp me, but it still racks up damage. (!3%? Or 14%?

 

[napZzz]

hearing snake has the advantage makes me sad, I always have trouble with wolf players LOL

Spammy wolfs, anyways. Or wolfs on wifi, anyways. I only know one wolf offline who I've played a few times and he's rather godly, so idk. It could just be the fact that he's alot more skilled than me

 

[SamuraiPanda]

People airdodge into the ground fairly consistently... shielded Ftilt also leads to a Dsmash. Mis spaced Utilt shielded leads to a Dsmash. Ledgehops (Dropping then shorthopping) leads to a Dsmash, shielded aerials (I'm thinking Bair) lead to Dsmash...

Everything you just listed there is only in the situation where a Snake player makes a pretty dumb mistake. Did you know that Snake can Fsmash a Ganondorf that does a Utilt in front of him? Did you know when Wolf Fsmashes Snake's shield, Snake can punish it with an Ftilt?

Situational things that rely on your opponents doing something silly is not the basis upon which to judge a matchup. Its a basis upon which to judge the relative skill level of the players involved.

 

[theONEjanitor]

lol @ "shielded aerials leads to d-smash"
OMFG WOLF i'M GONNA APPROACH WITH SH BAIR MY SNAKE IS AWESOME

um wolf is easy.

do your normal explosives game

, don't be a douche and try to punish bairs, personally i just block, let them do their predictable f-smash or whatever the hell they like to do, run away and continue blowing up everything
block--> ftilt everything else

hug the edge when he's off the stage.

you win
wolf can spike you but i mean you recover high with snake anyway

wolf will only hit you if he mindgames you. easy match for snake imo
lasers and bair is all wolf has going for him in this matchup

and if you want to be a real ******* just uptilt him out of his bair
70/30 imo

 

[Turbo Ether]

lol @ "shielded aerials leads to d-smash"
OMFG WOLF i'M GONNA APPROACH WITH SH BAIR MY SNAKE IS AWESOME

um wolf is easy.

do your normal explosives game

, don't be a douche and try to punish bairs, personally i just block, let them do their predictable f-smash

Stopped reading right there.

 

[theONEjanitor]

you don't read full posts, you sound like someone I need to take seriously

get ***** by snake moar