Wisdom's Weapons - Zelda Moveset Analysis/Discussion [Currently casually discussing~]

[PUK]

I agree with everything but "its only problem is the landing lag."

Its range is a big problem for me. It will trade with most aerials, and because each hit only does 2/1%, it's bad at air to air combat.

I'd give it a 3.5/5.

When the opponent is airborne and in position for a trade use your damned LK. It will win every trade of the game

 

[BJN39]

I'm always surprised at how well it actually does in certain air combat situations. Like, sometimes I've jumped up and at someone and entirely interrupt an opponent with a rising NAir (lol see: Phil's Zelda Social highlight vid.) One perk of course is that this move (As pathetic as it sounds.) has some of the best coverage for her in the air.

While still long, the landing lag buff is appreciated.

It's a very reliable multi-hit move, unless you're trying to make it drop like FF and moving away from them.

Damage is...kind of poor. I STILL don't understand what would be wrong with both sides of the move doing 2%... I remember getting excited when I realized front-side NAir did 2% per hit, only to discover that was because the back did 1% now.

NAir is obviously the favorite BnB Dthrow followup (Even though UAir is significantly more rewarding now, especially with the damage swap.) it IS guaranteed on more characters for a better low percent range, (13%/17%) then you switch over to UAir for mid percent. (21%)

Overall I like it, it is an alright move. 3.5/5

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

Nair... Here we go...
One of Zelda's safer aerial options due to the fact that it hits on both sides, and lasts long enough to catch people in it. You actually can't fall out of it, I'm pretty sure (in Melee you could iirc) which is great, because vanilla Zelda in this game had you falling out of everything. Does decent damage in the front now, meh in the back. Extra sparkly.

You can actually guard the ledge with this move. If anyone is in distance, and recovering low or level with the stage, you:
Jump off > fast fall > Nair them as you FF > they get dragged down and knocked back at the end > jump back and teleport to safety > they may not be able to recover, or get KO'd
It's not the safest tactic since you can go down too far sometimes, but it's good to mixup her offstage game. If a character has already used their second jump, the chances of them not being able to make it are usually greatly increased, so try to do it after they jump. If they're recovering high, I mean, you just jump up and hit them with it. No explanation needed. To follow up to it depends on the angle at which they get knocked back, but it's pretty straight forward.

I'll rate 3/5. Can combo into Usmash and Farore's, the landing lag isn't too bad, FF Nair is useful on and offstage, can be comboed into itself at the right percents (or people are really bad at air dodging), and it's one of her safer and easier to land aerials.

 

[Katy Parry]

5/5 best move in her arsenal

Combo starter
Kill set up
Easy damage
Wins AFTER close range trades or hits midair

 

[UkeNicky]

I'm actually gonna agree with the guy above me, it really is quite possibly her best move in regards to her entire moveset.
5/5 for Nair, it's one of her safest options, decent for air combat, wonderful combo starter, setup and more

The 1% damage being on the back of the attack now is still disappointing and quite honestly stupid but I'm okay with it since there is more up front which actually makes it better to use now without having your back to the enemy.
It's actually pretty fun to edge guard with too, I think T Swizzle said something about edge guarding with it against people that try to come back horizontally.
Oh and the decreased end lag on it is highly appreciated. Now decrease the end lag on LKs plz lol

Ahem, 5/5 I think it is truly the best thing in her arsenal when compared to everything else since it's just so balanced and offers tons of utility and isn't "nichey"

 

[BJN39]

Just a question @ S.F.L.R_9 : Even though FAir and BAir technically have small data differences, we're going to talk about them jointly, right?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Just a question @ S.F.L.R_9 : Even though FAir and BAir technically have small data differences, we're going to talk about them jointly, right?

i believe we should do that and just call the discussion Kicks

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Just a question @ S.F.L.R_9 : Even though FAir and BAir technically have small data differences, we're going to talk about them jointly, right?

Yeah definitely! Though fair can do a few things that bair can't do, and bair can do a few things that fair can't do, so I'm thinking we should just dedicate a small part of our post to talking about the differences

 

[BJN39]

I was pretty much gonna make an essay on the differences of the two Kicks

 

[evmaxy54]

I was pretty much gonna make an essay on the differences of the two Kicks

Pls do! =3

 

[Macchiato]

hmmmmmmM its a combo extender, leads to kills, great for air to air combat. yaaaaay 4.5/5

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Sorry this is a little late oops. Doing fair and bair now.

Ok so here's some little aesthetic thing I just noticed for the first time:

When you connect a sweetspotted Lightning Kick there's rainbow holo effects. Like Zelda pls I didn't know it was even possible for your moves to be more fabulous than they already are :^)

Anyways, LKs are decent...if you hit with the sweetspot. Otherwse the sourspot is unsafe on hit (??? why Sakurai???) and they have a ton of landing lag. I'll occasionally use them from a full hop if I'm absolutely positive an aerial approach is coming and that the sweetspot will hit so it'll either trade or hit before the opponent's move comes out, and if it sourspots I can just land or jump away. Dthrow > nair > fair/bair is kinda a thing, dtilt > fair works at mid percents and kills near ledges, bair can be used to stage spike and OOS if you think it'll sweetspot

Edit: Thought 2 was a bit low, so I'll change it to 2.5/5

 

[PUK]

4/5 there is nothing wrong with them outside of the AC window which is a little hard to get

 

[JigglyZelda003]

the new easier sweetspot on the kicks makes it easier to kick short characters on the ground than it was in brawl, this is a great plus as now everyone can be hit someway on the ground. Bair OoS is one of the best punishes in the game despite being complicated to do, that's one thing the lack of shield stun actually helps in is more kick opportunities OoS. like you can Fair Ryu if you block Fsmash and Ganon if you block Dsmash from in front and a couple other things. despite the landing lag kicking peoples shields is sometimes a way to land if someones running at you while your trying to land because it gives shield pushback which is sometimes safeish like against Luigi. jab>Fair works near the ledge sometimes at certain percents, as does ledge trump Bair. a solid 20% every perfect hit is great.

sadly those fub kicks hurt when you get those although i think most people not mashing buttons get a little pause if they just get fub kicked and don't always immediately retaliate. 3/5

 

[Brinzy]

Would still rather have stronger sourspots and slightly weaker sweetspots to compensate. Or just stronger sourspots.

The sourspot issue is a big reason why this character has so many problems approaching. As if low mobility and insane landing lag wasn't enough, not landing these kicks is a free punish.

I'd also like to point out that on some characters, like Luigi, if you Lightning Kick them at 0%, it's possible for them to punish you in the lag. I whined about this two and a half months ago, and @Antonykun reminded me recently by liking that post >_>

Of course, these are still Zelda's trademark abilities and by far some of the best reward per frame attacks in the game if you land them. Avoiding overuse of these and being able to reliably land them is staple to winning on this character... which is really a large reason why she's so bad.

2/5

 

[Rizen]

I missed Nair but the new combo mechanics are nice: 4/5.

LKs really aren't that good. The sweet spots aren't powerful enough to make up for the cumbersomeness of landing it. They also are very unsafe and require a good setup or read. I miss Brawl's LKs.
2/5.

 

[Zylach]

The fact that we have a tiny frame window on these and are outranged by the majority of fairs/bairs in the game make it incredibly difficult to use these effectively. The only good things that Lkicks provide are 20% on sweetspot, shield pushback so they are safe-ish on shield, fast so they are good punishes, and souspotted fairs/bairs act like jab resets so it's possible for us to elevator people under those circumstances.

Bad things: Ending lag, landing lag, 4% on sourspot which hits a million times more often than sweetspot, can't beat most aerials/outspaced by most aerials, whiffing them means gigantic punishes. Not good moves.

2.5/5

 

[Daidarapochi]

Fun sometimes to punish sloppy multi-hit moves/ jabs. Maybe it was just the character but I find myself getting shield grabbed by Bowser on sweetspot which is a bit annoying.
I feel like without the pause frame this move would be better on shield since it essentially prompts a reaction, like WFT's smash attack whistle.
Everything else i can think of has been said. 2.5/5

 

[Lorde]

Kicks are bad now and that makes me sad since they were one of the things that initially drew me to the character in Melee.

I give them a 1.5/5 because LAG

 

[Gay Ginger]

I'll give the Lagning Kicks 1.5/5.

They just don't have enough reward for the risk.

They're unsafe on hit (sour-spot), and they're not totally safe if shielded (sweet-spot). They're painfully punishable when whiffed because their end lag and landing lag are atrocious.

They're near useless in air to air combat because they're often out-ranged by other aerials and the precision required to land them makes it too hard to space/out-space most other aerials. If they trade on sweet-spot, it's great, but more likely, they'll trade on sour-spot and that's terrible. We'll only deal 4% while most likely taking much more and go flying farther and possibly die.

Really these are only good for hard reads and punishes. B-air OoS is a great option when an opponent uses a punishable attack at close range. However, anything that pushes Zelda back when shielded often gets her out of range to use it.

Zelda's poor mobility also makes it difficult to punish things if the opponent is not right next to her, so even if they whiff a punishable move, we often can't kick them fast enough.

B-air is better for punishing OoS, but f-air is easier to land off reads. If we predict precisely where they'll end up, we can intercept with a f-air, but it's not practical and can't be relied upon. Sometimes we can land a f-air from d-tilt, but most characters can escape it at most percents, and almost definitely at KO percents.

I cannot believe they actually reduced the BKB of both kicks and made them drastically more risky to use. The only good things are that the sweet-spot is slightly easier to land and they're quick for their level of power. But with how unsafe they are, it's actually harder to use them effectively than when we had the Brawl sweet-spot.

They're some of the worst aerials in the game, period.

 

[UkeNicky]

The lag kicks are good for a few things:

1. Harddd punishes
2. Air trades, this is surprisingly true I've just recently experienced it firsthand
3. Beat-for-the-gods reads, like you have to read realll hard but landing a sweet LK is the most fulfilling thing ever so it's worth it

I wish I could say it was good for breaking shields but no, not really. It deals a nice chunk of shield damage but unless you are BREAKING their shield with it, you'll be left wide open and they can actually punish you which is some bullshnitzel.
The lag on these kicks literally makes them unusable, and the sourspots are useless.
The sweet spot is also useless should they do anything but get hit by the move directly.
no I'm srs, if you don't hit them, you fall on the ground for like a full second, WTF

But I digress, they are an amazing trade tool truly, and fun for hard punishes. I'm still scared to use them in reads but like I said, if you get a good read off down throw into a sweet LK you've just done something amazing and epic.

I'm gonna say 2/5 but it could be so much better if they had greatly reduced lag OR if they had more balanced sour spots and if the sweet spot broke shields instantly, I think that would be fair because it's stupid when you hit someone's shield and they punish you while you faceplant.

The gods have spoken, 2 / 5

 

[evmaxy54]

Just as a handy tip

If you do a SH/falling LK

Fast Fall it immediately

You're gonna be stuck in lag so you might as well get to it quicker.

---

You can shield drop into LK on the lower platforms of BF/Lylat/DL to punish someone attacking you from below if their attack is quite laggy

 

[Meek Moths]

LK are great, you can do dthrow to bair or fair on some characters like marth or ddd. but only if they di away from you or dont di at all. if they di towards you, they will be sent right above you and you can safely uair them.

btw you must double jump to get it connect.

 

[90007000]

What are LKs?

 

[BJN39]

What are LKs?

Lightning Kicks. Zelda's FAir and BAir.

No sassing intended, I'll assume you just didn't know their abbreviation?

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

The Kicks, one of Zelda's most situational, yet rewarding moves (sometimes). Zelda's Fair/Bair in this game is... Meh. I miss Melee's landing lag with them, I loved abusing them in every single match. Now, there's a reason why we call them the "Lagning Kicks". Anyways, this move goes like this:

• You sweetspot your opponent, you're (in most cases) safe, do a lot of damage, and possibly get a KO. Good stuff, man.

Or

• You sourspot your opponent, do basically no damage/knockback, almost immediately get punished (except in a few situations), blah blah blah, bad stuff happens.

It's never something you necessarily want to ledge guard with unless you're a god at spacing with Zelda's horrible mobility and they're coming right at you. In several situations, it can knock an opponent out of their attack (like Sheik's Bouncing Fish ), or if both attacks collide and you're both at high percentages, chances are they'll be making their way to the blast line before you do if you sweetspot it. If you manage to land this offstage (which is very possible in the right situations), you'll more than likely have yourself a KO at lower percentages than normal.

I don't like to use this move at all really (in this game) unless I just know that it's going to hit. It's a very read-based move, and if you just throw it out like any other attack, you're going to be in some pain very soon. It's a high risk, high reward move that you'd use based on a read. I'll rate it a 2.5/5. Way too laggy and unsafe, but very satisfying when you do land it on an opponent not shielding.

 

[BJN39]

As promised, I shall outline the various differences between FAir and BAir during their discussion period!

The new animations are so good imo, even if it comes with the lengthy end lag.

Data tables:

Spoiler: FORWARD AERIAL

Spoiler: BACK AERIAL

Now, to focus on each specific difference:

Hit-frame : FAir (F9) / BAir (F6)
Like in every other iteration, Zelda's BAir hits 3 frames faster than her FAir. While 3F is still only 3/60 of a second, 3 frames can be very noticable for hit-frame differences in smash. Aiming with FAir and BAir are very different things, you often need to be closer to the ground in most cases when using BAir. BAir's earlier hit is also more advantageous in aerial combat. While niether is very good in aerial combat. BAir's quick hit can make it easier to get the sweet-spot out when you're finally close enough. It also gives it easier retaliation factor under the rare circumstance you can use it to retaliate against a weak hit.

Hit (Sour-spot) duration : FAir (5F) / BAir (4F)
Probably something far less noticed is that since Brawl, FAir's sour-spot lasts 1 frame longer than BAir's. In the grand scheme of things that's pretty insignificant, but...It's there! :D

FAFs and end lag : FAir (FAF: 53, end lag total: 40F) / BAir (FAF: 53, end lag total: 44F)
So, another interesting thing that's brand new to SSB4 is that FAir and BAir actually have the same FAF (First actionable frame) but since FAir hits later and lasts a little longer, this means that BAir actually has longer end lag than FAir. I guess the idea was to tradeoff the earlier hit-frame for a few more frames of end lag. The difference isn't very big, and since their FAFs are the same now it won't feel like too much of a difference.

Auto-cancelled landing windows, and landing lag : FAir (AC: 1-3, 50>, landing lag: 23F) / BAir (AC: 1-2, 52>, landing lag: 25F)
So, once again a small but odd design choice that I consider the tradeoff for the stronger sweet-spot (See: KB stats.) where, while both FAir and BAir have rather bad AC windows and longer landing lag, BAir's AC is almost non-existant, and it has 2F more landing lag upon non-AC'd landing. You may feel it a little in gameplay, and once again combined with FAir hitting later/longer, then BAir has notably worse frame data there.

Bone numbers : FAir (7/5/3/7) / BAir (11/9/3/11)
This very pretty much only noticed when looking at the numbers, and has NO effect on gameplay. But I list it anyways.

Sweet-spot KB stats : FAir (24/95) / BAir (28/96)
As more people might know by now since I bring it up a lot, BAir's sweets-spot is slightly stronger than FAir's. I really don't know where Sakurai originally got the idea in Brawl to mkae this a thing, but it is. So going for BAir will reap you a better reward, even if it does have more lag overall.

Facing restriction : FAir (n/a) / BAir (Only hits the direction opposite to Zelda.)
This is another new to SSB4 and unique to BAir trait. When you hit with any hit-box on BAir, it will ONLY, hit backwards relative to Zelda, In contrast to FAir, which, if you hit with the inner most hit-box from the wrong side, will send them backwards relative to Zelda, but it will send forward under regular circumstances. The difference doesn't have a big effect on gameplay. I don't know why they only applied a direction restriction to BAir, tbh. Maybe it only fit well in Sakurai's opinion with the BAir animation.

That outlines all of the data differences between FAir and BAir! The differences between the two really end up balancing the two in a way. I'd say BAir is just a little better than FAir, since it KOs roughly 4% earlier, can hit closer to the ground, as well multiple BAir "techs", such as SH AD BAir, and ledge trump BAir (And Dthrow reads being easier and better with BAir.) and the tradeoff is that since in most cases you'd probably be using it and landing lagging anyways you'll only have 2 more frames of end lag, which is pretty small.

Overall I'd rate them a 2.25/5 they are undoubtedly flawed but really powerful (like, kind of fraudulently sometimes.) and fab and awesome! <3

 

[Crudedude]

5/5 if all could hit sweetspot but... Brawl 1/5 10/10 if using the clock item, SSB4 2.5/5, Melee 10/5. This poor move has been over nerf. Please someone give Zelda some shoe that isn't broken please. I can understand the reduce range however the sour spot nerf? Has she been sour spotting people to death. This move is pretty much core for Zelda, I feel, and there will be some situation where you have to throw it out even if you don't sweet spot with it just a sour spot can save your life or give you an advantage.

 

[Gay Ginger]

5/5 if all could hit sweetspot but... Brawl 1/5 10/10 if using the clock item, SSB4 2.5/5, Melee 10/5. This poor move has been over nerf. Please someone give Zelda some shoe that isn't broken please. I can understand the reduce range however the sour spot nerf? Has she been sour spotting people to death. This move is pretty much core for Zelda, I feel, and there will be some situation where you have to throw it out even if you don't sweet spot with it just a sour spot can save your life or give you an advantage.

SSB4 LKs > Brawl LKs ?

Girl no....

 

[Crudedude]

well I truely hated brawl Zelda's aerials only one of them I love and that was uair nair was ok in brawl. ssb4 Lk are easier and more reliable and you don't float as long when your opponent sheilds, faster to come out and sour spot can disrupt better the last two might not be true. For brawl Lk I loathe being put in a situation where the best option is Lk cause it could not sweet spot and sour spot could not make people flinch. To each their own

 

[evmaxy54]

I would love to get the frames for Zelda's SH/FH with FF in as well :/

IIRC her SH is 40 frames but that is all I know :/

well I truely hated brawl Zelda's aerials only one of them I love and that was uair nair was ok in brawl. ssb4 Lk are easier and more reliable and you don't float as long when your opponent sheilds, faster to come out and sour spot can disrupt better the last two might not be true. For brawl Lk I loathe being put in a situation where the best option is Lk cause it could not sweet spot and sour spot could not make people flinch. To each their own

From the numbers, no LKs got nerfed from Brawl. While they do feel like they connect slightly easier & the hit lag is reduced greatly, the LKs are weaker, come out 1 frame slower, much more ending lag, slightly less landing lag, p much non-existent AC window. At least in Brawl you can space with Bair because you could throw out 2 from a SH & it could AC from a SH

 

[ThePrincessZelda]

I like using the Lightning Kicks, but sometimes it sourspots. The sweetspot, is, however, a great KO move. I'd rate it 4/5 ish.

 

[UkeNicky]

"It's the thought that counts"

- Sakurai when asked about putting Zelda in Smash Brothers Series

 

[Meek Moths]

"It's the sass that counts"

- Sakurai when asked about putting Zelda in Smash Brothers Series

 

[Macchiato]

4/5 because I'm a bias person.

and they look so sassy gorl.

 

[Nickat98]

Imo they're two of her best moves if you practice with them, I only get punished when they're perfect sheilded, if they shield I always hit the sweet spot for the push back, and when they run in for their punish as I'm in lag I have just enough time to neutral b and punish their attempt to punish because of that push back, if no shield the it's the straight on LK in the face, I also don't find them hard to use in air, even without the sweet spot I find that the sour spots are very gimpy to opponents in air, I've killed many foxs, Falcons, marios, marths, etc just with gimpy sour spots, this move requires practice to make it viable for us, I personally don't find it hard to use even on short characters such as G&W or Kirby, but because of the need to be so precise (which I have no problem with) and the upsetting (but manageable) end lag I'll give em a 3/5

 

[JigglyZelda003]

does anyone other than me hate her new Bair animation? Like in brawl she just lifted her leg back all gracefully with power now she's like "Uugh!!" And throws her back out to do bair. Its no wonder she lags so long, her back needs time to heal every Bair.

Fair on the other hand looks nice, I think her hip dislocates during the twist though, hence Lag.

 

[Crudedude]

lol yes brawl was better animated and I know this has been talked before but she gets all that momentum just to deal 4% if she miss and lag a year. Shall we move on to the next move?

 

[Meru.]

Surprised nobody mentioned yet but they can serve as a scary anti-aerial in a few match-ups (for example for Jigglypuff or Peach). If you kick their approaches once or twice it will force them to be more careful.

The move is still awful though. It's impossible to train yourself to consistently hit sweetspots, they're way too hard to connect. This means you're stuck with an aerial that does 4%, no knockback and is unsafe on both hit and shield (even if you sweetspot them you're unsafe on shield...why?). 1.5/5

 

[UkeNicky]

Imo they're two of her best moves if you practice with them, I only get punished when they're perfect sheilded, if they shield I always hit the sweet spot for the push back, and when they run in for their punish as I'm in lag I have just enough time to neutral b and punish their attempt to punish because of that push back, if no shield the it's the straight on LK in the face, I also don't find them hard to use in air, even without the sweet spot I find that the sour spots are very gimpy to opponents in air, I've killed many foxs, Falcons, marios, marths, etc just with gimpy sour spots, this move requires practice to make it viable for us, I personally don't find it hard to use even on short characters such as G&W or Kirby, but because of the need to be so precise (which I have no problem with) and the upsetting (but manageable) end lag I'll give em a 3/5

It doesn't matter how good you actually get with them, the fact that it is largely punishable on shield, even if you sweet spot it is bad.
If someone isn't punishing you then they're likely just bad.
The move really should just break shields outright if you hit a shield with the sweet spot, that could potentially make up for its lag but just because you practice hard with it to land the sweet spots consistently doesn't mean you'll be able to do that in online lag or under pressure at a tournament.

The move just needs slightly less end lag OR more balanced sour spots which I don't really see it getting.
It's just a niche move really, should you use it properly it can be good but if you're landing it consistently without issues then your enemy probably isn't the brightest