JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
i personally feel perfect kicks should have half the end lag, then that would make them perfect.
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Wisdom's Weapons - Zelda Moveset Analysis/Discussion [Currently casually discussing~]
- Thread starter S.F.L.R_9
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Some of my thoughts:
- IMO they're best used after a Dtilt (if they airdodge they're really in the exact perfect spot) and Dthrow (once again, airdodge).
- Haven't seen this mentioned; spotdodge punishes. I get A LOT of kicks off from those. They hit your shield and you know they'll spotdodge? Short hop kick. This is seriously good.
- If you land a kick while landing and KO your opponent at 80%, they'll respect your landings a lot more. Trust me. The fear is real.
2.75/5
They're not good aerials for obvious reasons, but they can quickly turn a losing match into a winning one. Instill the threat of the kick into your opponents!
- IMO they're best used after a Dtilt (if they airdodge they're really in the exact perfect spot) and Dthrow (once again, airdodge).
- Haven't seen this mentioned; spotdodge punishes. I get A LOT of kicks off from those. They hit your shield and you know they'll spotdodge? Short hop kick. This is seriously good.
- If you land a kick while landing and KO your opponent at 80%, they'll respect your landings a lot more. Trust me. The fear is real.
2.75/5
They're not good aerials for obvious reasons, but they can quickly turn a losing match into a winning one. Instill the threat of the kick into your opponents!
Nickat98
Smash Cadet
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Implying that practice with the kicks and ignoring a persons effecientcy with them is insignificant is just closed-minded, because it does in fact make a great difference, no one said its easy to use Zelda to her full potential, all her moves take practice and precision. But true maybe I rated it too high I'll give it a 2.5/5It doesn't matter how good you actually get with them, the fact that it is largely punishable on shield, even if you sweet spot it is bad.
If someone isn't punishing you then they're likely just bad.
The move really should just break shields outright if you hit a shield with the sweet spot, that could potentially make up for its lag but just because you practice hard with it to land the sweet spots consistently doesn't mean you'll be able to do that in online lag or under pressure at a tournament.
The move just needs slightly less end lag OR more balanced sour spots which I don't really see it getting.
It's just a niche move really, should you use it properly it can be good but if you're landing it consistently without issues then your enemy probably isn't the brightest
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Nickat98
Smash Cadet
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ZombieBran
Smash Lord
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2.25/5
The sweetspots don't make up for the plethora of issues these moves have. I dearly miss the range of Melee kicks.
I'm literally adding +0.25 for the cosmetic effects of landing one. It's more satisfying than Rest/Judgment 9, I swear.
The sweetspots don't make up for the plethora of issues these moves have. I dearly miss the range of Melee kicks.
I'm literally adding +0.25 for the cosmetic effects of landing one. It's more satisfying than Rest/Judgment 9, I swear.
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This is pretty much the problem with them.
I don't care how good you are at landing them, they are more risk than they're worth -,,-
But landing one is incredibly satisfying.
I don't know if anyone else does this but baiting counters and punishing with Fair/Bair is fun if they get predictable or you know how to force them to counter.
Rizen
Smash Legend
One way to look at how good a move is is by asking "would I rather have a different character's version?" With LKs I think Zelda would be better off with a most other characters' Fair or Bair or both.
PUK
Smash Ace
LKs are both a threat and a punish. Aerial zonig like jigg and D3 ones are destroyed by LKs.
The range is bigger than the animation, around marcina fair, and they are fast.
The point is this move is like a college classe which count as 50% of your grade and is tough. If you suceed in it you have your year. If you fail no summer holidays for you. About the end/land lag, don't use this putain de move unless it will land with the sweetspot.
To me zelda's gameplan should revolve more around landing LK and less around waitin in shield to elevator dumb people.
The range is bigger than the animation, around marcina fair, and they are fast.
The point is this move is like a college classe which count as 50% of your grade and is tough. If you suceed in it you have your year. If you fail no summer holidays for you. About the end/land lag, don't use this putain de move unless it will land with the sweetspot.
To me zelda's gameplan should revolve more around landing LK and less around waitin in shield to elevator dumb people.
evmaxy54
Smash Champion
Unless you aren't talking about Melee Rest, agreed =3
S.F.L.R_9
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Onto uair aka Finger Bang CarlyRaeJepsengif
PUK
Smash Ace
At least we can set in it.
And it's not the melee one
And it's not the melee one
Rizen
Smash Legend
Does Zelda have true combos into Uair?
PUK
Smash Ace
Yes but DI and tech ruin them
Dthrow>Uair does 21% and starts comboing from around the 30s to kill %.
Utilt (back hit) > Uair does 22% but it only works at mid-low%.
The timing is strict though, so you might accidentally do a JC Usmash (HATE IT WHEN THIS HAPPENS).
S.F.L.R_9
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Dtilt > uair isn't a true combo but it works most of the time at kill percents
evmaxy54
Smash Champion
A perfectly timed landing Uair can combo into itself on ZSS at 47%
#metaprogression
#metaprogression
Gay Ginger
Make Smash Bros. Gay Again
U-air is really bad.
It's slow, has a very short-lived hit-box, and has bad end lag and landing lag (though the latter was reduced a little bit in the last patch). If you miss (say they air dodge), you're left wide-open to a counter-attack by most characters.
It has good range with a good disjoint, does a fairly hefty 15% and can KO at some-what early percents. However, its damage output and KB are not enough to justify its really terrible start & end lag. Because it's slow and requires a hard-read and precise timing to land in most air situations, it's difficult to KO with.
We can combo into it from d-throw, but it can be DI'd at most percents and is easy to escape at KO percents. Sometimes we can combo into it from a d-tilt at KO percents, but that also relies on poor DI -- not too hard to land, but if the opponent is familiar with Zelda, don't rely on it.
We can let go of the ledge and use it through some stages to land a surprise KO, but again, if they're familiar with Zelda it's unlikely we'll land it that way.
It's similar to the LKs in that it's difficult to reliably land against opponents of equal skill, and its risks often out-weigh its reward.
I'll be frank: this move sucks, and it's one of her worst moves - as well as one of the worst aerials in the game.
1.5/5.
It's slow, has a very short-lived hit-box, and has bad end lag and landing lag (though the latter was reduced a little bit in the last patch). If you miss (say they air dodge), you're left wide-open to a counter-attack by most characters.
It has good range with a good disjoint, does a fairly hefty 15% and can KO at some-what early percents. However, its damage output and KB are not enough to justify its really terrible start & end lag. Because it's slow and requires a hard-read and precise timing to land in most air situations, it's difficult to KO with.
We can combo into it from d-throw, but it can be DI'd at most percents and is easy to escape at KO percents. Sometimes we can combo into it from a d-tilt at KO percents, but that also relies on poor DI -- not too hard to land, but if the opponent is familiar with Zelda, don't rely on it.
We can let go of the ledge and use it through some stages to land a surprise KO, but again, if they're familiar with Zelda it's unlikely we'll land it that way.
It's similar to the LKs in that it's difficult to reliably land against opponents of equal skill, and its risks often out-weigh its reward.
I'll be frank: this move sucks, and it's one of her worst moves - as well as one of the worst aerials in the game.
1.5/5.
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JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
the best time for Uair is ledge drop Uairs because it reaches further than people think lol.
honestly that's the only time i really land Uairs other than when people DI Dthrow upwards which is like a free Uair. kind of like Ging said the cons tend to outweigh the pros of the move having a nice disjoint and nice damage. the disjoint is great if you have great timing though as it can outreach alot of Dairs and body drops, almost makes me feel like Link. 2/5
honestly that's the only time i really land Uairs other than when people DI Dthrow upwards which is like a free Uair. kind of like Ging said the cons tend to outweigh the pros of the move having a nice disjoint and nice damage. the disjoint is great if you have great timing though as it can outreach alot of Dairs and body drops, almost makes me feel like Link. 2/5
ZombieBran
Smash Lord
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2/5
(+0.25 for "FingerBang")
The horizontal reach is deceptively better than the explosion graphic suggests. The vertical reach is deceptively worse. Sometimes you can still score a KO if they don't DI far enough.
Ledge drop to Uair only works like once per decent player :^(. It's not likely to kill at good percents either because Sakurai nerfed this move for no reason.
(+0.25 for "FingerBang")
The horizontal reach is deceptively better than the explosion graphic suggests. The vertical reach is deceptively worse. Sometimes you can still score a KO if they don't DI far enough.
Ledge drop to Uair only works like once per decent player :^(. It's not likely to kill at good percents either because Sakurai nerfed this move for no reason.
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Daidarapochi
Smash Cadet
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He put any left over killing power into Farore's Wind. Balanced!
I dunno though. Even when people DI wrong out of D-throw they always seem to dodge anyways unless they're Kirby (for whatever reason). Clearly I'm just garbo at grab follow ups that aren't Easy Bake
Making it work similar to Rosie's U-air and having it linger would actually make the end lag make sense.
2/5
Rizen
Smash Legend
I've done this several times with Link's Dthrow>Uair; I know what you mean.
On topic:
The fact that Zelda has some reliable ways to land Uair ups its worth. It isn't great but has uses. 2.5/5
I know this sounds cliche but I miss Brawl's Uair.
ZombieBran
Smash Lord
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Brawl Uair with current DThrow would be nice. Probably why Sakurai nerfed Uair; Zelda can't have anything resembling a hoo hah.
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Macchiato
Smash Hero
3.5
Strong, good range, ledge drops, has set ups into it, its pretty
Strong, good range, ledge drops, has set ups into it, its pretty
Crudedude
Smash Cadet
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I give it a 3/5, 2.75/5 the least, it's not as powerful as used to be but it's can be utilized. it'll be a 4/5 if she didn't have so much lag tied with it. Just point and be done with it no need to be graceful when finger banging your opponents.
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This is the one time I'll let people off for say "I miss Brawl's something" because its ridiculous power in that game was hilariously fun. I personally feel it wouldn't have been too strong coupled with Dthrow in this game, and I'll bet there is no way Sakurai nerfed it with Dthrow UAir in mind. Until the landing lag reduction this move was only nerfed from Brawl.
Something I do appreciate is that since the hit-box stays static (Does not move with Zelda) you can make its range seem incredibly large by FF or move to a side, even if its duration is kind of too short to effectively use this idea.
Overall I would say this is her 'worst' aerial, it doesn't have much opportunity and not a ton of reward (Aside Dthrow UAir) 2/5 at least it not HAS one true use in Dthrow/Uthrow UAir.
All I want to say as an example of this move being mis-balanced was G&W's UAir. Look at it. I'm certain its second hit KOs better than our UAir, with nearly the same horizontal hit-box range, quicker to set up if you consider the first hit, it even does 1% more damage wtf. Zelda's UAir could use the Usmash patcheT treatment where it re-becomes one of the most powerful UAirs like Usmash for Usmashes. It would (Like Usmash) stiill have multiple shortcomings to keep it fair and balanced.
Something I do appreciate is that since the hit-box stays static (Does not move with Zelda) you can make its range seem incredibly large by FF or move to a side, even if its duration is kind of too short to effectively use this idea.
Overall I would say this is her 'worst' aerial, it doesn't have much opportunity and not a ton of reward (Aside Dthrow UAir) 2/5 at least it not HAS one true use in Dthrow/Uthrow UAir.
All I want to say as an example of this move being mis-balanced was G&W's UAir. Look at it. I'm certain its second hit KOs better than our UAir, with nearly the same horizontal hit-box range, quicker to set up if you consider the first hit, it even does 1% more damage wtf. Zelda's UAir could use the Usmash patcheT treatment where it re-becomes one of the most powerful UAirs like Usmash for Usmashes. It would (Like Usmash) stiill have multiple shortcomings to keep it fair and balanced.
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Dee-SmashinBoss
Smash Ace
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Thid move can be lead into, but it has a lot of landing and ending lag, along with a hitbox that cant really hit low opponents whatsoever, its decent for killing, and has good range, but yea its not all that great.
2.5 at most I guess
2.5 at most I guess
Suicidal_Donuts
Smash Ace
Uair, the one aerial you can't say out loud without sounding stupid. I personally think that this move is very situational, and really only is useful by reads and ledge shenanigans. What makes this move unique is that the hitbox is completely detached from Zelda and doesn't travel with her. Tbh that makes it harder to use in many situations (IMO) but this is Zelda we're talking about. She'll always be our favorite mess of a princess in Smash.
For ledge guarding, you can literally guard the ledge by going beneath it and using the attack so that the explosion covers the ledge. If they don't see it coming, and they're at a high enough percent, you could get a KO. Another use for Uair in this situation is letting them recover to the ledge if you notice a pattern of them usually going for a jump afterwards. You could actually bait this by throwing out a Phantom at the right time (beware the endlag of course) which will most likely cause them to jump (or roll) past it, giving you an opportunity to punish.
I give it a... 2.5/5. It's one of her least used aerials (tied with Bair/Fair) because it's so easy to miss if you mess up. I'd rate it higher if it was like it was in Brawl, but it still gets the job done of netting you a KO past the early 100's (which most Uairs don't do at all).
For ledge guarding, you can literally guard the ledge by going beneath it and using the attack so that the explosion covers the ledge. If they don't see it coming, and they're at a high enough percent, you could get a KO. Another use for Uair in this situation is letting them recover to the ledge if you notice a pattern of them usually going for a jump afterwards. You could actually bait this by throwing out a Phantom at the right time (beware the endlag of course) which will most likely cause them to jump (or roll) past it, giving you an opportunity to punish.
I give it a... 2.5/5. It's one of her least used aerials (tied with Bair/Fair) because it's so easy to miss if you mess up. I'd rate it higher if it was like it was in Brawl, but it still gets the job done of netting you a KO past the early 100's (which most Uairs don't do at all).
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
It's an uair that functions as an uair and not an all-purpose aerial like on so many characters.
There isn't really much else to say about it that hasn't been covered. It is slow and laggy but disjointed and powerful. It has its problems, but I don't think uair is so crucial yet so crippling to Zelda as... say... fair/bair.
I will actually give it a 3/5 just because it does everything you want it to do and is our only non-sweetspot, hard killing aerial.
There isn't really much else to say about it that hasn't been covered. It is slow and laggy but disjointed and powerful. It has its problems, but I don't think uair is so crucial yet so crippling to Zelda as... say... fair/bair.
I will actually give it a 3/5 just because it does everything you want it to do and is our only non-sweetspot, hard killing aerial.
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S.F.L.R_9
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Ok so dair...dair is one of the best spikes in the game and Zelda has a very good recovery so you can use it offstage a lot. Even if you don't sweetspot it, Maxy and I discovered that the sourspot to a footstool is pretty much guaranteed so it'll gimp a lot of characters that way. Sweetspot dair also leads into kill setups on the ground. FF Dair > elevator (20-40%, with rage, weight dependent), Dair > fair/bair (60-90%), and Dair > uair (90-130%). At the ledge, dtilt to dair can also work if the opponent doesn't airdodge or you read the airdodge
4/5
4/5
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evmaxy54
Smash Champion
Dair is amazing
Albeit slow (comes out on frame 14)
It has p generous hitboxes (like you can just throw it out & it'll probably hit them eventually)
Really quite powerful even if you get the sourspot
But most of all
#10FRAMES
Albeit slow (comes out on frame 14)
It has p generous hitboxes (like you can just throw it out & it'll probably hit them eventually)
Really quite powerful even if you get the sourspot
But most of all
#10FRAMES
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Rizen
Smash Legend
Dair paired with Zelda's recovery is fantastic. The disjoint is good, Zelda doesn't have to worry about not being able to recover afterwards and even the sour spot is effective. The only Dair I'd rather have is Ganon's. 5/5.
I remember being very surprised when Aerodrome had said the first time that the sweet-spot's size was nearly doubled from Brawl.
DAir is definitely not fast, but for the rewards it can give, it's actually decently fast. Thinking of the sweet-spot, 14 frames isn't horrible. Other similarly powerful meteors are usually frame 16-18 bar some rare outliers.
Also yes that sour-spot has surprisingly long duration. Especially if sour-spot to footstool really is some not too hard to do thing.
It has lots of fun followups off of grounded sweetspot, like DAir to Usmash, UAir and Up B, which are all quite rewarding if landed and they made them easier to do by reducing ha DAir landing lag like, it didn't dawn on me immediately when I heard about the lag reduction, but these followups are way easier/actually doable now with only (Still long, but less) 18F of landing lag.
ALSO IT CAN SHAC. EVEN IF IT'S A 1 FRAME WINDOW.
Its power on the sweet-spot is so good too. It can gimp at very nice percents, and Zeldas shouldn't be afraid to go deep since lolrecovery.
I'd argue it might be better than NAir personally. 4.5/5
Without a doubt her mostand probably only lololol improved normal from Brawl.
DAir is definitely not fast, but for the rewards it can give, it's actually decently fast. Thinking of the sweet-spot, 14 frames isn't horrible. Other similarly powerful meteors are usually frame 16-18 bar some rare outliers.
Also yes that sour-spot has surprisingly long duration. Especially if sour-spot to footstool really is some not too hard to do thing.
It has lots of fun followups off of grounded sweetspot, like DAir to Usmash, UAir and Up B, which are all quite rewarding if landed and they made them easier to do by reducing ha DAir landing lag like, it didn't dawn on me immediately when I heard about the lag reduction, but these followups are way easier/actually doable now with only (Still long, but less) 18F of landing lag.
ALSO IT CAN SHAC. EVEN IF IT'S A 1 FRAME WINDOW.
Its power on the sweet-spot is so good too. It can gimp at very nice percents, and Zeldas shouldn't be afraid to go deep since lolrecovery.
I'd argue it might be better than NAir personally. 4.5/5
Without a doubt her most
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evmaxy54
Smash Champion
Oh yea
FH Dair sweetspots on every character taller than & including BJr. (Not counting Luigi)
http://smashboards.com/threads/character-height-a-rough-start.402759/#post-1927792
Meaning if you get the sweetspot at mid-high %s & they fail to tech, you can go for a Nair, LK, Uair, FW or another Dair & they are true combos (Uair can kill btw)
FH Dair sweetspots on every character taller than & including BJr. (Not counting Luigi)
http://smashboards.com/threads/character-height-a-rough-start.402759/#post-1927792
Meaning if you get the sweetspot at mid-high %s & they fail to tech, you can go for a Nair, LK, Uair, FW or another Dair & they are true combos (Uair can kill btw)
S.F.L.R_9
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tbh I'm surprised how optimistic you all are but it's nice to see. I didn't think anyone would rate it higher than a three but eh HSB jank ban customs
Oh btw recoveries you can't dair:
, (I swear that parasol beats everything wth), maybe and ? Idk if dair beats either up b.
Oh btw recoveries you can't dair:
, (I swear that parasol beats everything wth), maybe and ? Idk if dair beats either up b.
Gay Ginger
Make Smash Bros. Gay Again
Agree with most of what has been said. 4/5
S.F.L.R_9
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Do any of you use dair in the neutral to bait a response? If I'm against someone really aggressive I will since dair autocancels and if they try to punish it they can't, and if they try to punish it too fast they'll get hit since the hitbox lasts like forever
MOI-ARI
Smash Ace
Dair is indeed the best. I agree with all said above. Take this move and raise hell off stage.
Though its hard to use it fully Offensive, but counter-offensive seems the way with most of Zelda. I like dair over my opponents to get away from the ledge or advance anywhere that involves them in my way. The sour spot really ****s them up keeps them grounded as i land behind them and if they were sour stomped ,mashing? thats a decent grab punish.
Anyways don't listen to me i suck but i heard you all mention FF Dair?
Someone mentioned this too but i feel it went overlooked...
FF Dair>FaroresWind.
It's definitely Zelda's earliest true combo- kill move, but all characters die at different percentages. -_-" Thus the list in spoiler.
It's risky as hell, techable, DIable and kinda hard to execute. But ive landed it a number of times and pissed people off xD
I mean it kills the whole Cast at less than 50% so it seems worth a shot in my eyes. I made this list a long time ago in 1.0.5. -.6 days and I was a little delusioned on the mind of live opponents because i would test on Cpus.....*facePalm* This move would be treasured if Zelda had a Sheild Breaker...but im looking for ways gosh darn it!
Though its hard to use it fully Offensive, but counter-offensive seems the way with most of Zelda. I like dair over my opponents to get away from the ledge or advance anywhere that involves them in my way. The sour spot really ****s them up keeps them grounded as i land behind them and if they were sour stomped ,mashing? thats a decent grab punish.
Anyways don't listen to me i suck but i heard you all mention FF Dair?
Someone mentioned this too but i feel it went overlooked...
FF Dair>FaroresWind.
It's definitely Zelda's earliest true combo- kill move, but all characters die at different percentages. -_-" Thus the list in spoiler.
||||||Dair-FF->Farores Wind> KO (sort of)
((Kill percentage on left. Characters on right obvi.))
-(51%MegaMan...)
-(50% King DDD, _Cpt Falcon_)
-(55%DK)
-(49%Wario)
-(48%Bowser jr, Ike)
-(46%diddy kong,Ganondorf,_Lucario_)
-(45%Bowser,Link, Duck Hunt, ROB)
-(44% Shulk,Smash-[24%] __Sheild__[150%-167%)
-(43%Lil Mac, Charizard,Dr.Mario,Lucina,Marth)
-(42%Mario,Pit)
-(41% Robin,Dark Pit)
-(40% PacMan, Sonic)
-(39%Samus,ZSS,MetaKnight, Fox, Falco, Villager)
-(37%Sheik, PikaFreak, Greninja, Ness)
-(36%Toon Link, WiiFitTrainer)
-(35%Zelda,Palutena, Olimar)
-(40%yoshi,)
-(33%Rosalina,kirby,,Luigi,Peach)
-32% Kirby , Mewtwo)
-(29%GW)
-(25% Jigglypuff ):
((Kill percentage on left. Characters on right obvi.))
-(51%MegaMan...)
-(50% King DDD, _Cpt Falcon_)
-(55%DK)
-(49%Wario)
-(48%Bowser jr, Ike)
-(46%diddy kong,Ganondorf,_Lucario_)
-(45%Bowser,Link, Duck Hunt, ROB)
-(44% Shulk,Smash-[24%] __Sheild__[150%-167%)
-(43%Lil Mac, Charizard,Dr.Mario,Lucina,Marth)
-(42%Mario,Pit)
-(41% Robin,Dark Pit)
-(40% PacMan, Sonic)
-(39%Samus,ZSS,MetaKnight, Fox, Falco, Villager)
-(37%Sheik, PikaFreak, Greninja, Ness)
-(36%Toon Link, WiiFitTrainer)
-(35%Zelda,Palutena, Olimar)
-(40%yoshi,)
-(33%Rosalina,kirby,,Luigi,Peach)
-32% Kirby , Mewtwo)
-(29%GW)
-(25% Jigglypuff ):
It's risky as hell, techable, DIable and kinda hard to execute. But ive landed it a number of times and pissed people off xD
I mean it kills the whole Cast at less than 50% so it seems worth a shot in my eyes. I made this list a long time ago in 1.0.5. -.6 days and I was a little delusioned on the mind of live opponents because i would test on Cpus.....*facePalm* This move would be treasured if Zelda had a Sheild Breaker...but im looking for ways gosh darn it!
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Macchiato
Smash Hero
same 4.5 for reasons above