Wisdom's Weapons - Zelda Moveset Analysis/Discussion [Currently casually discussing~]

[JigglyZelda003]

tbh I'm surprised how optimistic you all are but it's nice to see. I didn't think anyone would rate it higher than a three but eh HSB jank ban customs

Oh btw recoveries you can't dair:
, (I swear that parasol beats everything wth), maybe and ? Idk if dair beats either up b.

Fub Dair can trade with Peach if you are really close to her when she starts upB and you can Dair Ike at apex its just sketchy cause lol floating sword. Zamus i'm pretty sure you can trade out and you can get bowser while his UpB is in motion but that's risky timing.

Dair is like her only move i have very few complaints about. the fub hitbox is huge and actually gives Zelda a bit of landing defense that alot of characters don't have because of its size. its not full proof but it works against many characters Uairs where you at least trade with them and at higher percents it pushes them to the ground and gives Zelda a bit of space. brawl peach habits actually come in handy here cause Zelda Dair stops alot of aggression trying to get under her dress with the right timing. the only thing that would make it perfect is if it autocancelled automatically. then Zelda could really jump around like a janky brawl ganon sparklefooting around the stage. 5/5

what move section are we moving onto next? throws?

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

Love Dair. Dair is so... Yes. Dair you usually can't go wrong with. The end lag isn't much of a big deal (as you all have explained). Because I'm kinda late on this I won't say much since you've pretty much covered everything. Dair on grounded opponents can follow up into so many things (my favorite is Dair > Bair although it rarely happens). The move is quick (enough), the sweetspot isn't hard to land, and it's not horribly laggy. Even a sourspotted Dair offstage can help because of the different things you can do after it. I'll give it a 4/5. Solid move.

(Also her animation during this move is priceless.)

 

[Zylach]

I swear, Smashboards doesn't want me to see this thread. I haven't been getting any updates on it at all which is why I missed uair and most of dair.

Ok, really quick: uair. I dthrow>uair all the damn time and it's one of our more reliable kill "combos." Basically, unless a floaty jumps, this is more or less guaranteed even at kill percents with proper timing. Other than that, I'll sometimes use it if I have enough room when I'm recovering. If the opponent is standing just a tad too close to the ledge without shielding, I'll catch them with uair. Doesn't work a hell of a lot but it keeps them on their toes. 3/5.

As for dair, this move is obviously in top 2 for Zelda's best aerials next to nair sine it AC's, spikes, sourspot spikes, does good damage, can be a combo starter or a combo finisher. The fact that it lingers for so long makes it invaluable offstage and has even helped me land on stage a few times. 3.5/5

 

[Hennet]

I find Dair to be safe to use in most match ups the sourspot off the stage is useful as well. On stage it great to build percent combos from it requires very specific timing on average to big charterers it's easy to get the timing but on shorter ones a missed combo can and will be punished. 3/5

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Dair is one of the best, faster, and strongest meteor smashes.
It can be used to combo on grounded opponents that can lead to a LK(so satisfying to here 2 of those......sparkle kick sounds?)
So good offstage too, not very laggy and you can go very low for a kill too.
It and her Nair autocancel in a short hop, awesome I give this a 4/5

I only recently saw this thread so I at least wanna do Ftilt
It's pretty good, it has nice range and good kill power(in some cases, better then Fsmash) It can be angled which is nice and space against your opponents.
The angle it sends them is cool too and it doesn't have much lag anyways.
the blind spot can be annoying but I like it nonetheless.
3.5/5 maybe even 4/5

What moves haven't we gone over? my iPod is so slow I don't wanna check individual pages, it does suck I couldn't discuss some of her moves too
@ S.F.L.R_9 after discussing the rest of her moves can we do it again but compare them to the rest of the roster? you know, to make it fair for some who missed this thread?

 

[Darktundra]

Dair's sweetspot is twice as large as fair and bair's sweetspot. The move last for 10 Frames! Fair has an auto cancel window from short hop and can true combo into farore's wind. Great to trade off stage sourspots with and offensive recovery and can follow up with footstool. Great for covering offensive pressure from below. Only thing that could make it bad us that it's the only option Zelda has to be offensive to opponents below her.
If any other character had this move or anything similar, they would be broken.
4/5

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Dair is one of the best, faster, and strongest meteor smashes.
It can be used to combo on grounded opponents that can lead to a LK(so satisfying to here 2 of those......sparkle kick sounds?)
So good offstage too, not very laggy and you can go very low for a kill too.
It and her Nair autocancel in a short hop, awesome I give this a 4/5

I only recently saw this thread so I at least wanna do Ftilt
It's pretty good, it has nice range and good kill power(in some cases, better then Fsmash) It can be angled which is nice and space against your opponents.
The angle it sends them is cool too and it doesn't have much lag anyways.
the blind spot can be annoying but I like it nonetheless.
3.5/5 maybe even 4/5

What moves haven't we gone over? my iPod is so slow I don't wanna check individual pages, it does suck I couldn't discuss some of her moves too
@ S.F.L.R_9 after discussing the rest of her moves can we do it again but compare them to the rest of the roster? you know, to make it fair for some who missed this thread?

We haven't done her grab, throws, and specials yet

If anyone missed a move just feel free to add it in your post about the current move and I'll add it into the OP!

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Ok for her Usmash it got a sweet power buff that makes it more reliable. It lacks range of course and is easily punishable and on small characters, isnt gonna hit them mostly if they are grounded, it could sometimes be used to cover some options when people come from the ledge.....but I wouldnt count on it too much.
Eh. 2.5/5

Utilt is quite nice, good combo tool, some good duration, nice anti-air move, little lag, disjointed range and even a kill option at %s under 150.
I like this move a lot, it can chain onto most characters at least 3-4 times and then follow-up with an ariel. I think its overall awesome for an Utilt
4/5

Fsmash is decent, it has some nice range, and is semi-reliable for hitting sidestepping opponents. it does have some slight start-up end lag but its not the worst. It pushes shields back surprisingly far too, so its not the easiest to punish if shielded.
Its cool I give it a 3.5/5

Dsmash I seen surprisingly isnt good to most(I dont get it either....)
I like its amazing speed because it is the fastest dsmash, its knockback is decent and the angle it sends them at is soooo helpful, it really is an awesome "get off me" option too, it has slight ending lag, but I think its the least out of all her smashes.
Its range can be a problem sometimes, even Dtilt has more range then it does. I like to use it after a Dtilt on opponents who I manage to hit before they grab the ledge to knock em far back
Awesome smash I give it 4/5

Dtilt is amazing, her fastest tilt that has great combos and can chain into its self a few times at low %s nice range and I love how it can hit opponents who try to grab the ledge, popping em up so I can Dsmash them. It doesnt kill unlike her other tilts, but its still awesome anyways
4.5/5

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Ok so I put a few moves together this week since grab and pummel aren't really worth talking about by themselves. Grab discussion might leak into bthrow, uthrow, and dthrow talk a little bit when talking about what to do after you get a grab but that's alright. Or, would you all rather just do grab and pummel right now, and then move onto forward throw in a few days?

 

[Macchiato]

Lets all just drop Zelda for WiiFit

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Lets all just drop Zelda for WiiFit

 

[Rizen]

Standing Grab 10-11 FAF 38
Dash Grab 11-12 47
Pivot Grab 11-12 44

Frame 10 or 11 isn't good for a non-tether grab but Zelda does have good grab range. Her pummel also seems mediocre but they serve their purposes.
Fthrow does a nice 12% damage. It gets overshadowed but Zelda's combo throws despite being a pretty good throw. I only use it at high %s throwing the opponent off the edge.

Thanks again to Aerodrome for the frame data.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Zelda

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Grab doesn't have very good frame data but you can get a lot of stuff off of it. 3/5

At low percents you can do fthrow to Farore's for more damage than dthrow > nair but it's nowhere near guaranteed and it's pretty risky. Other than that fthrow isn't good for much besides getting your opponent off stage. It is her most damaging throw tho. 2.5/5

edit: OH forgot pummel. It's slow but it does decent damage, you can probably get 2 or three at the most at high percents. It pretty much does what it's designed for. 2/5

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

So like.... Three in one, eh? Hmm...


Grab: Decent range actually. I think this is the best her grab has ever been, much better than whatever it used to be, and is also actually better than some other characters'. 3/5 I suppose.

Pummel: Meh, I never bother to use it because it's so slow, and the opponent can easily escape if you pummel them more than once. Mehhhh. It's not even amusing like Samus'. At least the damage is alright for a single pummel (which is all you'll get). 2/5.

Fthrow: Woo, free 12%, you send someone away a decent distance, wooo. It does what it needs to do, won't really KO, but if you need to send someone off the stage, it gets the job done. That's its main use. 3/5 because the damage is great for a throw and has decent knockback.

 

[PUK]

Dash grab frame are actually legit. Just barely slower than other dash grab. Pivot grab is normal, it's barely slower than the fastest PG. It means zelda is supposed to run away and pivot grab. Given the range it's really smooth.
Her throws deals nice damage, Fthrow is really good to that. Pummel sucks, give me kirrby's ones.


Actually the pummels does 3% and is quite fast. Around 100% you can get 2 of them and throw even on a Lvl 9 cpu. It means even on a furious mashing machine marine you can pummel.
On a standard player pummel+fthrow is the safest way to secure damages above 50-60% when dthrow thing stop working

About fthrow
Fthrow deals 12%, and has quite low angle. At low percent you can tech chase with farore. At higher (80% more or less) you can Fthrow farore 2 (not a true combo but will usually surprise) but try to not suicide.

 

[BJN39]

Zelda's grabs were not adequately balanced between range and lag imo. I guess their reward is pretty decent, but that aside, her's are definitely some of the worst standalone as a grab grabs in the game. We'll still work with them obvs since our throw rewards were one of the only other things we got when transitioning to Smash 4.

Zelda's pummel DO do on the high side of damage at 3% (Some characters can only do 1% >_>) but it's one of the slowest pummels out there. Well, at least it isn't fast, more like middle speed to slightly slower, but you get the point. You can only get 2 at most at high percents, and you might even grab release anyways, which would be very sad lol.

Fthrow is actually not a bad throw, it just doesn't do anything particularly special (Like combo or KO) compared to her other three throws. It does great damage for a throw, 12% isn't something to scoff at in this game and is on the top end for a throw. It also does sufficient KB at mid % to get someone off the stage, which Zelda likes.

All of her throws but Dthrow actually use special speed modifiers based on the target's weight, so it'll execute Fthow slower the heavier the opponent is, and faster the lighter they are. It's not anything of real significance though, aside maybe giving more/less time to correctly vector it. It'll probably be vectored as desired either way; it takes nearly 30 frames even on lighter characters to execute, so w/e.

Grabs : 2.5/5 (As a standalone, since throws are standalone)
Pummel : 2.25/5 (Maybe use after conditioning your opponent to expect immediate throws?)
Fthrow : 2.75/5 (Decent enough throw)

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Her grab is cool, it's slightly slower the. others apparently? I don't see much of a problem with it anyways, got nice range especially when pivot
3.5/5
Her pummel is decent as well, slower then others, but it's understandable for being 3%
can get in a few before a throw, racking up nice damage.
4/5
Fthrow isn't too shabby, the knockback is quite good for getting people offstage and for its great damage(I am not lying when I say I have done 15% with it a couple times against a Link)
It can KO if at the very edge, not reliable but is an option nonetheless.
It's among the most damaging throws and I like it
4/5
......anyone else get the feeling people are still comparing her moves and stuff to other characters to a certain extent?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

sorry double post XD

 

[BJN39]

sorry double post XD

Dp when?

......anyone else get the feeling people are still comparing her moves and stuff to other characters to a certain extent?

I hope you don't mean me! :o either way I realized I had wanted to fix/increase my initial scores slightly. I-it wasn't because of you! >.>

 

[Zylach]

Frame data on her grabs isn't great especially considering some characters can whiff grabs and still be safe against us whereas we get annihilated if we whiff a grab. Decent range though. I still miss being able to RCPG though since it gave Zelda ridiculous range on her PG which meant she actually had a really good tool in neutral. 2.5/5

I never pummel. Bad habit I guess but I'm usually too concerned about getting the throw I want rather than racking up damage beforehand. Still, her pummel is ok doing 3% in one hit. I'd also give it a 2.5/5

Fthrow does great damage but is definitely overshadowed by other throws. Dthrow can get us significantly more damage most of the time and even uthrow can do that. Bthrow kills at high percents. Meanwhile, fthrow just does 12% alone with no followups and no kill potential. 2/5.

 

[evmaxy54]

So yea

Grab is ehh (It's bad when a frame 10 grab is one of your fastest OoS options ;_

Pummel is ehh

Fthrow is ehh (though free 13% when fresh is p gud tbf & it becomes decent at high % when all our other throws can no longer combo or something)

This reminds me that I forgot to continue the Uthrow -> Uair project

Ehh

CBA ATM

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Dp when?

Odd smashboards seems to have glitched on me, i thought i double posted. good thing i copied it beforehand lol

Grab: Decent range actually. I think this is the best her grab has ever been, much better than whatever it used to be, and is also actually better than some other characters'..

IIRC in Brawl Zelda's Dash grab range was on DDD levels for his standing grab range which was huge in Brawl and Zelda's pivot grab had better reach than her current "must be kissing on the run" pivot grab range since Sakurai nerfed it lol.

Her grab itself is bad, only because you can act out of shield faster in this game is Zelda's grab even usable here. its still far to slow for the mixed rewards you can get from grabbing someone. Mac can Fsmash her if she whiffs a grab on him as can a few other characters and Zelda doesn't move faster enough to harass people like other characters can with their grabs. Oh and she also grabs high which means her grab is easy to duck for short people (kirby) and sometimes does a wii fit whiff on other not as short but short people like Luigi randomly 1/5

pummel is faster than it used to be which is nice, its on Jiggly lvls when it comes to pummels, nice damage per hit but less hits per grab 3/5

Fthrow is nice, gets people off stage, i only wished it tossed them lower to make the edeguards 3/5

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Should we just do all throws at once or something? I feel it would be easier instead of doing one throw each mainly becuase theres only going to be like 1 or 2 sentences per throw, it would save time, but thats just me.

 

[Darktundra]

Gorls, not ruin the party but I don't like Zelda's grab in terms of range and frame data. I compared Zelda's grab to Martha's to find out there is little to no difference in terms of grab range. Despite this claim, Marth's grab is superior because his starts and has less endlag than Zelda's. There has been many times that I have grabbed before my friends grabs me and they win because of the 3-4 frames slower Zelda's grab is to Martha's. Greninja's standing grab is slower than Zelda's (frame 14), however this made up by a 14 frames of lag below average in terms of grab endlag. Zelda's whiffed grab can be punished by Bowser's forward smash.
Standing grab endlag: 27 frames
Pivot grab endlag: 32 frames
Dash grab endlag: 35 frames
Most of the non tether cast's endlag ranges from 19-25 frames and our standing grab alone is bad. There is no reward for grab that is guaranteed except for down throw to nair.
There is little reward despite how much we put up with it. (0.5/5.) There cruelty is real.
Pummel: free damage if your opponent isn't mashing however no ridiculous kill throw to rack up damage for (3/5)
Forward Throw: Me: Sakurai what is the point of this move?
Sakurai: to tease you to even attempt a follow up and get punished but it has above average damage.
(2/5)

 

[Hennet]

Since this topic went to discussing pummel and fthrow I have been experimenting and trying to find any situation that Fthrow would be useful. What I found is that it is only useful if you do it right at the ledge then try to get an early spike but other than that worthless .5/5. Zelda's Pummel is very slow and even at higher percents you could only get off 2 at the most before a break out but should be able to get a contestant 1 Pummel before you go for any throw 2/5.

 

[Zylach]

Fthrow can put some lighter characters on BF platforms from 0% and up. It could lead to a tech chase if you're fast enough to get Zelda over there. I guess that could also give us an opportunity to pressure them with nair while they're up there.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

http://smashboards.com/threads/pummel-damage-data.372509/

 

[Zylach]

http://smashboards.com/threads/pummel-damage-data.372509/

In other words, Zelda's pummel is ok at best. Almost middle of the road. 2/5.

 

[ZombieBran]

I like never use Fthrow, even when it might not be a bad choice. This extends to other characters out of habit from using Zelda T_T

Fthrow isn't even bad when you look at other characters so this makes me optimistic about Zelda's throws.
Too bad our grab is garbage, with lag everywhere. I miss our pivot range SO badly.

Grab: 1.75/5 lol (a lot better if you take our throws into account)
Pummel: 2/5 Does what it's designed to with mediocrity.
Fthrow: 2.5/5 12% is 12% and it puts them in what would hopefully be a disadvantaged position.

Oh and
Dair: 4.25/5 Much love for it. You know it's great when even the fub is useful. Lagning Kicks pale in comparison so hard.

http://smashboards.com/threads/pummel-damage-data.372509/

I knew the balloons had god tier pummels but wowS

 

[BJN39]

http://smashboards.com/threads/pummel-damage-data.372509/

:D

Character | Damage (%)
Mario | 42
Luigi | 41
Peach | 56
Koopa | 40
Yoshi | 65
Rosalina | 60
Bowser Jr. | 60
Wario | 31
G&W | 36
DK | 68
Diddy Kong | 63
Link | 68
Zelda | 39
Sheik | 35
Ganondorf | 32
Toon Link | 68
Samus | 63
Zero Suit Samus | 67
Pit | 67
Palutena | 71
Marth | 67
Ike | 69
Robin | 29
Kirby | 73
Dedede | 66
Meta Knight | 37
Little Mac | 68
Fox | 57
Falco | 63
Pikachu | 65
Charizard | 63
0% Lucario | 38
200% Lucario | 98
Jigglypuff | 78
Frog | 25
Duck Hunt Doge | 36
ROB | 35
Ness | 57
Captain Falcon | 67
Villager | 37
Olimar (White) | 54
Olimar (Purple) | 27
Olimar (Blue) | 27
Olimar (Red) | 28
Olimar (Yellow) | 25
Wii Fit Trainer | 34
Dr. Mario | 47
Dark Pit | 67
Lucina | 67
Shulk | 34
Shulk (Speed)| 24
Shulk (Buster)| 48
Shulk (Shield)| 24
Pac-Man | 68
Mega Man | 36
Sonic | 67

:0

Character | Damage (%)
Zelda | 39

:O

Character | Damage (%)
Zelda | BJN39

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

You know, when people rate her moves, I need to know what they expect from that certain move
For instance her pummel
I expect a pummel that is good at adding a bit of damage before a throw, which Zelda's can do, it doesn't have to be too fast or anything, just a decent damage racker.
what about others?

 

[PUK]

You know, when people rate her moves, I need to know what they expect from that certain move
For instance her pummel
I expect a pummel that is good at adding a bit of damage before a throw, which Zelda's can do, it doesn't have to be too fast or anything, just a decent damage racker.
what about others?

Zelda can do 1 to 2 pummel if the opponent is over 40%. 1 is guarented, but most player are not furious masher so 2 is possible. Combined to fthrow it does enough damage to reach 70% in 2 grab, where we can adopt a more defensive strategy. Compared to kirby who does more pummel and can do little more damage, but need way more damage to kill, it's really good.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

You know, when people rate her moves, I need to know what they expect from that certain move
For instance her pummel
I expect a pummel that is good at adding a bit of damage before a throw, which Zelda's can do, it doesn't have to be too fast or anything, just a decent damage racker.
what about others?

I mean i feel that way about Zelda's pummel as well. it does the damage its just not...special. it would be nice if it did more damage or was just a bit faster. as is its only a bit below average according to that chart.

 

[Zylach]

:D


:0


:O

Half Life 3 confirmed!

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Not to rush but can we move on to her other throws @ S.F.L.R_9 ?

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Not to rush but can we move on to her other throws @ S.F.L.R_9 ?

Tomorrow is the last day for fthrow anyway so I think we should just wait until that day especially considering some of the regular contributors here haven't posted about it yet

Onto Back throw! Well back throw...sends your opponent behind you It does 11% which is p good, and with lots of rage it can kill near the ledge at 120-150%. It also sets up for edgeguards so that's fun. 3/5

@ BJN39 Could you please merge this post with my other one? Just wanted to post so people would get a notification that we're moving on

 

[Macchiato]

it kills and its pretty 4/5

 

[BJN39]

Bthrow. Well, it at least does a little more KB than Fthrow like with Fthrow there isn't really much to say. Decent damage for a throw, can put people offstage for edge guards sometimes, isn't good at KOing, hardly KOs at a useful percent at the edge. It KOs abouT... 20% earlier than the average non-KO throw.

That's not really good.

I guess you could KO someone at the edge 120%? When you have 120% as well, LOL. Good vector completely deletes it's KO capability.

Mind you, you have to manage to land a grab...AT THE EDGE.


Fun fact: Bthrow releases 3 frames faster than Fthrow,

...but has the same duration, AKA 3 more frames of endlag. The comparison of Fthrow/Bthrow differences really isn't too different to FAir/BAir comparisons if you think about it.

2.75/5

 

[evmaxy54]

There really isn't much to say about Bthrow at all. Use it if you have already staled Fthrow &/or throwing someone offstage/getting the rage kill at high %s close to the ledge.

Probably should've grouped this with Fthrow & Pummel IMO :/

 

[ZombieBran]

BThrow makes me sad because on the rare opportunity that I kill with it, that really just means I failed to land Zelda's plethora of earlier kill options.

Going to mirror the red sis above
2.75/5

This throw should get an Usmash type buff.