Wisdom's Weapons - Zelda Moveset Analysis/Discussion [Currently casually discussing~]

[Rickster]

I thought opinions of this move would be better...it's one of her best moves, IMO. It can combo at any reasonable %, and it can combo into Uair for good damage and KB. It sets up for kicks and falling Nairs, too. Baiting an airdodge into a kick is one of the best feelings ever.

However our options become more limited once the opponent learns to DI. Usually you can always get at least a Nair off of it, unless you just completely misread their DI. I've seen some Zeldas land Bairs on a DIing opponent, since they're in a good position for a kick.

Overall I give it a 4/5. Huge % range where you can combo, sets up for our strongest moves, and it puts them in a bad spot.

I'd like to see the damage buffed to maybe...8% but that would mess up the knockback (unless the devs change that too).

 

[Meek Moths]

since the patch, dthrow to nair does about the same damage as single fthrow, so unless you want to go for some crazy followups like dthrow to nair to bair then just throw dem forward.

on most characters, dthrow to uair is always guaranteed, even if they di the throw. as long as they dont air dodge. if they try to jump, they will get caught by the uair because it has such a big hitbox, so they have to airdodge it, which can be punished ^.^

 

[Rickster]

I'd like to add that you can turn around and Nair, to get the strong part of it and still combo. On some characters you can get them to "fall" into the stronger side if you keep moving left (assuming you were facing right when you did the throw).

One thing I like about the weaker side of Nair is that it's slightly easier to follow up on since they don't fly as far.

 

[Meek Moths]

I'd like to add that you can turn around and Nair, to get the strong part of it and still combo. On some characters you can get them to "fall" into the stronger side if you keep moving left (assuming you were facing right when you did the throw).

most of the time you turn around, you still hit them with the weak part, trust me.

or it's just me, using the pro controller, it has more sensitive stick than gc controller

One thing I like about the weaker side of Nair is that it's slightly easier to follow up on since they don't fly as far.

bs they only switched the damage, the back still has higher knockback

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

bs they only switched the damage, the back still has higher knockback

How much damage a move does affects how much knockback it does

 

[Rickster]

most of the time you turn around, you still hit them with the weak part, trust me.

How exactly did you manage to turn around and still hit with the weak part? That's the whole point of turning around...

 

[Macchiato]

Combos and finger banging

4.5/5

 

[Meek Moths]

How much damage a move does affects how much knockback it does

that doesnt change anything the end hits for front part and back part both deal 3% and the back hit has more scaling

How exactly did you manage to turn around and still hit with the weak part? That's the whole point of turning around...

my stick so sensitive when i want to just turn around zelda moves a little so when i jump i hit the back part, also depends on character. yeah pro controller is ****

 

[evmaxy54]

that doesnt change anything the end hits for front part and back part both deal 3% and the back hit has more scaling

I'm gonna have to call out BS on this. Where's the evidence saying the back hit has better knockback? I don't think there was ever documented a different hitbox for the back (which is required for there to have varying % or knockback values).

 

[Macchiato]

SMH another soul for my daughter

@ BJN39 gorl, you might wanna look up

 

[Rickster]

that doesnt change anything the end hits for front part and back part both deal 3% and the back hit has more scaling

According to the Fairy Fountain, the KB and KBG for the front and back are exactly the same.

The increased damage from the front is likely what causes the KB to be greater (since they're taking more damage before the final hit).

 

[Macchiato]

that doesnt change anything the end hits for front part and back part both deal 3% and the back hit has more scaling

 

[Meek Moths]

I'm gonna have to call out BS on this. Where's the evidence saying the back hit has better knockback? I don't think there was ever documented a different hitbox for the back (which is required for there to have varying % or knockback values).

According to the Fairy Fountain, the KB and KBG for the front and back are exactly the same.

The increased damage from the front is likely what causes the KB to be greater (since they're taking more damage before the final hit).

i tested it the very first day 1.8 came out and back still launched them further

 

[evmaxy54]

i tested it the very first day 1.8 came out and back still launched them further

How did you test it? Why only mention it now?

There was actually no need for this gurl bai

 

[Meek Moths]

How did you test it? Why only mention it now?

in training, i used all hits of nair on lucina when she was at higher %, first front and then back. i recall the back leaving the red trail after lucina was launched for longer.
come to think of it, maybe that means back hit has more hitstun, not knockback

 

[Macchiato]

in training, i used all hits of nair on lucina when she was at higher %, first front and then back. i recall the back leaving the red trail after lucina was launched for longer.
come to think of it, maybe that means back hit has more hitstun, not knockback

Nope falling nair with the front hits combo into elevator and other moves but the back hits don't because they don't have enough hitstun

 

[Meek Moths]

Nope falling nair with the front hits combo into elevator and other moves but the back hits don't because they don't have enough hitstun

im talking about the last hit, not the multi hit

 

[Macchiato]

im talking about the last hit, not the multi hit

Also wrong, if you do it as fast as possible. Front of nair combos into sourspot LK while the back of nair cannot.

 

[Rickster]

From the based Zelda Momma:
Hopefully this quotes right...

["BJN39"]It isn't the front or back that has less KB, but the inner hitboxes on the final hit of Zelda NAir have 20 less KBG which makes them kill later. Of course the damage done has an effect on KB, but only a very small on if the difference is only 4% at the time of the final hit.

Also I think the inner weaker hits are out prioritized by the stronger ones so they're really hard to land.[/quote]

I BROKE IT

 

[evmaxy54]

From the based Zelda Momma:
Hopefully this quotes right...

It isn't the front or back that has less KB, but the inner hitboxes on the final hit of Zelda NAir have 20 less KBG which makes them kill later. Of course the damage done has an effect on KB, but only a very small on if the difference is only 4% at the time of the final hit.

Also I think the inner weaker hits are out prioritized by the stronger ones so they're really hard to land.

I BROKE IT

YOU SUCK

 

[BJN39]

Holy hex a lot of posts.

I've been summoned.

Basically what Rickster is saying is that firstly, when you do a turn NAir out of Dthrow the front hit, that does more damage out prioritizes the weaker multihits as of 1.0.8, and so if the oppoent gets caught in it, it will prioritize the higher damage hits. It is also possible to move far enough to hit with the higher damage multihits without turning around, if the opponent's hurt-boxes go to the other side of Zelda, but it's unreliable.

Along with this, yes, the amount of damage the target has will cause them to be knocked further, but in this case the damage total difference before the final hit will only be 4%, and both the front and back final hits use identical KB stats, so the difference is very small.

There ARE hitboxes on NAir's final hit that do less KB, but they cannot be landed under the Dthrow to NAir circumstance, they have to be specially aimed for since they're out-prioritized by the higher KB final hits. Even then at Dthorw to NAir percent range they hardly knock away different amounts.

It's like, BKB/KBG 40/140 for the weaker ones, and 40/160 for the prioritized edge hits. The KBG will only make a difference at higher percents and of course, it's really too hard to hit with the inner ones anyways.

I would also like to rate Dthrow 3.75/5 imo her best throw. Has combos at a decent percent range, really pretty too lol.

 

[Zylach]

I see this dthrow discussion is going well.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

This is a decent throw, I mean...yea it does half the damage her other throws do, but its still a combo throw nonetheless.
Nair is what you will mainly get out of it(and Uair) I never actually baited AD with it before to get the LKs...maybe I should try that.

Anyways on lighter characters and if they know how to DI, it really is difficult to actually get the Nair off, I noticed.
But on some Heavy FF and such, its possible to get 2 Nairs, and if your lucky, end it with a LK.
Its a combo throw that we are lucky to have, and I respect it.
3.5/5 for me.

 

[AncientCode42]

Down Throw is Zelda's go to throw really, it combos into Nair. That is if they don't DI out of it. It's an okay throw, but it's easy for opponents to DI away. You could possibly kill off of it with u-air, and if they airdodge after it, punish hard with a sweetspot LK or falling N-air. I can almost never hit with U-air anyways.

3/5 Could be better.

 

[Rizen]

Dthrow's good; I can't add anything that hasn't been said before.
Looking at Zelda's throw game as a whole, would you guys recommend F/Bthrow (position dependent) at high %s when Dthrow can be easily DIed?

 

[Rickster]

Dthrow's good; I can't add anything that hasn't been said before.
Looking at Zelda's throw game as a whole, would you guys recommend F/Bthrow (position dependent) at high %s when Dthrow can be easily DIed?

Dthrow is good at almost any %, really. Rage is what messes this move up. If you have a lot of Rage, any throw but Dthrow will do.

 

[Rion]

Uthrow has identical frame data to Fthrow. Just a little random thing.

Considering it can actually get a follow on fatties and FFers at low low percent, it does incredible damage like wow 11% AND a followup.

I never thought of that Uthrow > wait > Uthrow, that's actually neat @ JigglyZelda003

Based Auntie @ Rion . Eaux how you just found such nice things. ily.

Uthrow has nice niche properties tbh, does good damage, low % combos, AND it actually KOs about as well as Bthrow if both are correctly vectored from center stage. That said Uthrow is nowhere near a kill throw, lol.

CAN YOU IMAGINE IF IT WAS LOL.

Anyways, I'd rate it a 3.25/5. Does nice things and is a good Uthrow imo.

Oh my God, I taught someone somethingggg <3

This is probably so late, but I thought it was amusing.

 

[Crudedude]

Down throw is nice but I feel like this could be better 3/5.

 

[Langston777]

Does anybody have some advice for anti-air tactics?

i'm finding it very hard to contest versus characters like ness, yoshi, ike, especially ike, who have very good air game in neutral. i feel like my only option is to commit to run straight under their approach/poke and upsmash them. but i don't like doing this because it's quite the commitment to just throw out an upsmash, and even so it doesn't really have much range. i main marth and i'm used to being able to just swatting away opponents in the air away with fair, zelda doesn't really have the airgame for that though.

any suggestions?

 

[Zylach]

Does anybody have some advice for anti-air tactics?

i'm finding it very hard to contest versus characters like ness, yoshi, ike, especially ike, who have very good air game in neutral. i feel like my only option is to commit to run straight under their approach/poke and upsmash them. but i don't like doing this because it's quite the commitment to just throw out an upsmash, and even so it doesn't really have much range. i main marth and i'm used to being able to just swatting away opponents in the air away with fair, zelda doesn't really have the airgame for that though.

any suggestions?

Versus characters without big disjoints, utilt works really well. Against everything else, honestly, just shield until you can punish.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Doing Nayru's now

Btw what do you all wanna do regarding customs? Talk about them with the default? Or save them for when the default discussion period is over?

 

[evmaxy54]

Nayru's is cool

The invincibility at the start of the move has saved my ass a good number of times.

Probably her best GTFO move she has

But it's laggy as all hell (31 frames)

Love Jump is a decent mixup every now & again

IDK what else to say about it =/

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

(Because I'm late)
Dthrow I don't have much faith in. It's an okay throw, and you might get a follow up, but probably not if your opponent is good at switching up DI. You have to really predict what your opponent is going to do for a follow up, putting air dodge timing and DI into it. I also think that Zelda's poor mobility gives her a harder time using it effectively (why she can easily miss her follow up). Not that great, I'd rather go with Fthrow or Bthrow, but I'll need to do more experimenting, perhaps it's just my playstyle that favors the others more. 2/5 for now.

(Because I'm mostly early)
Nayru's. Ooh. Dat lasting hitbox. Goodbye spot dodges. I like this move a lot, it has a lot of different uses. It can be a landing option, alter her momentum midair, it reflects, it does 11% damage IIRC, catches Rolls/Spot Dodges, can be followed up easily, comes out kind of quick (for Zelda), is your basic panic button, hits on both sides... move is just pretty decent. The only thing holding it back is its endlag, but that's forgivable considering its many uses. The intangibility on the startup is also very nice. A lot of times this can be a better alternative to Dsmash. I'll say 4/5 because it's a special that's actually useful. The Phantom and Din's wish they weren't so useless in comparison.

 

[Macchiato]

Nayru, AKA panic button

4.5/5

No customs because their ded. Also if we did customs every move would be like 0.00001/65 except like strike and squall

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

NL is cool, its very fast with intangibility, can reflect, catch rolls/spotdoges, can seriously knock people away from you and such.
I like using this against annoying grab-happy characters/characters with little range in their attacks. It lasts forever, but I wish it didnt have so much ending lag.
Other then that I give it 4/5

It can be baited of course, but its still a nice move overall.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Nayrus I'm giving a 2. It suffices for rolls cause dsmash is bad at that now. Some comboability as well as at times panic button.

problem with Nayrus is it has alot of nice options but nothing is full proof . Its all situation dependant and not an always on guarantee.

I think we should take a moment to run her customs at the end anyway. Customs are still in even though Zelda's are bad.

 

[Rizen]

Nayru's is a good spot dodge punisher and you can use the invulnerability (frames 5-12) like armor frames to beat other moves. It hits through out frames 13-28, reflects 5-43. It's unfortunately very punishable with 32 end lag frames ending frame 60.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Zelda
thanks again to @KuroganeHammer for the data.

Nayru's has its uses but can't be recklessly thrown out, except on wifi
2.5/5.

 

[BJN39]

Something we can appreciate about Nayru is they actually used the new "re-hit rate" property instead of looping 1F long hitboxes like ha jab and smashes.

The re hit rate hitbox means the hitbox literally is out the entire length of coverage and only disappears for a tiny bit after actually hitting, making it seem REALLY meaty for coverage. Completely beats passive invincibility like dodges. Paletuna's multi hit attacks all use it a and feel meatier.

Overall Nayru 'a ain't bad. Its intangibility at the start is very fraudulent though. Frame 5, so there's still 4 vulnerable frames, If someone already has a hitbox out on you under some conditions it'll lose the trade because the intangibility ends before, or really AS the hitbox appears.

The reflect length is pretty good though, and lasts a little longer visually than one might think. Has pretty much identical range to Dsmash's front hit. On the 3DS the flying Crystals arefraudulently not correctly in line with the hitbox.

I definitely find myself using it. it DOES have a sort of anti-pressure ability if used right. Sometimes Nairo manages to pull it off vs good players, though, it seems like it trades or loses more often. Use sparingly to tell them to mind their aggression.

3.5/5

 

[Zylach]

Nayru's is Zelda's best anti-aggression tool. Against players that are more mindful of their spacing, it's usefulness dissipates a bit because of its endlag and merely manageable range. That said, I still very much enjoy using it as a counter to ledge getup options since, positioned properly, it can cover so many options at once unless the opponent is willing to sit there and wait on the ledge for the move to end which is often the case. I also like using this to catch landing opponents that think they can cover their landing with a hitbox as I use my intangibility frames to ignore it and deal 11% to them instead although I more often shield and punish with dash attack or something. I'll also use it to cover my own landings sometimes like if the opponent airdodges a SH nair and lands with those 22 frames, I'll follow up with a Nayru's Love if I'm not feeling like I'm in the position necessary to land a Lkick instead.

I just used it yesterday during a tournament against a Mewtwo to reflect his shadow ball into his reflector which was reflected again by the same Nayru's Love I used to reflect it initially. It wasn't a fully charged SB though so it didn't kill

I just wish it had its intangibility frames start 2 frames earlier and end when the hitbox starts so we can't get knocked out of it. Furthermore, a bit more range would make this move a 5/5 for me. As of right now, it's somewhere around 3.75/5.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

the reflect frames are actually very good on Nayrus. I rarely get faked out on reflect cause the ending few frames give some leeway on reflecting