Wisdom's Weapons - Zelda Moveset Analysis/Discussion [Currently casually discussing~]

[Rizen]

IMO Farow's is Zelda's best move.
As a recovery it covers great vertical and horizontal distances since it can be aimed. It is hard to gimp due to the disappearing invulnerability and hitboxes as long as you're careful to not start where the opponent can hit you. This makes Zelda's offstage intercepting game better since she can go deep and not have to worry about not returning.

Farow's is one of the few upBs with several functions. It can be Nair/throw(?) comboed into and elevatored for early but risky KOs. It works like little Mac's forwardB to punish projectiles and it can be used as a followup at certain %s with chains like jab>farow's. The versatility is great and if you're unsure you can simply reappear in place or somewhere safe instead of attacking. This beats most upBs and lunging type forwardBs.

You can't throw it out recklessly as it's not safe on shields and Elevator can be DIed. But this applies to most moves in the game.

The only character who would not benefit from having Farow's replace their UpB is Yoshi.
5/5

 

[AncientCode42]

Ah Farore's Wind I've been meaning to talk about this move. This was once a mediocre recovery move that could almost never save Zelda, but turned into one of the best recoveries in Smash 4. It's her best special by far. It covers great horizontal distances. When canceling it at the ledge it can help Zelda in some situations, mostly gimp with Nair or Dair (don't expect it to beat everyone.) Once you get it consistent it can be a great option. It's also much better at sniping the ledge. I love the new function of it in this same where she gets a quick boost upwards before reappearing again. This helps better with aiming your direction and position and makes Zelda much safer then she ever was before.

Zelda can also go deep without always having to be gimped by so many people who could easily do it before. The Elevator is quite risky and at times I find a hit or miss factor depending on how I'm playing or the opponent. Sometimes if the opponents range is too long it'll be near impossible to use this move. Or if they can space well. Plus using it on stage can punish you horribly if you miss. Despite this it's a satisfying option to say the least. I always get a kick out of killing the opponents with this move.

However. This move can punish rolls if predicting the opponents pattern right. I'd say 4/5 It would be perfect if it wasn't for end-lag or punishable offense if missed.

 

[PUK]

Does anyone tried to use farore wind to land by using the first hitbox to poke (it extends quite a lot under the feet), and then go away ot kill?

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

On to Phantom Slash!

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Good thing it got buffed.
OK it's a very unique projectile, that has a wind hitboxes and travels medium distance, but has decent KO power.
It can cover Getup options decently and can surprisingly hit some characters hanging on the ledge and hit them with the 2nd strike
It can be very good for interactingwith some recoveries or attacks and take the hit for you
It does have some lag though, and can be easy to see coming if your quick enough to react.

I have a feeling there is some unknown technique that may very well be possible to do with the new wind hitbox., heard a lot of people say how weird this attack is because of it.

I think it's a decent projectile, could use less lag and it would be perfect
3.5/5

 

[Macchiato]

covers landings and great at edgeguarding

4/5

 

[Rebel13]

Feel like adding that the phantom doesn't have a windbox. It has a 0% hitbox with really wierd properties instead. I've had my opponents perfect shield it (the 0% hit) and not get pushed back. Sigh.

Anyways, pretty good move, and one of Zelda's better spacing/edgeguarding tools.

4/5

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Gurls have you done B reverse Phantom yet? with the new phantom its like the best thing ever, you just fly away and the go flying the other way lol.

Phantom is ok now, it still needs better HP and a few more frames cut off so Zelda can act after it or at least a few seconds cut off the respawn time but now it functions like a move we can sort of count on, like Fsmash lol.

3/5

 

[PUK]

Gurls have you done B reverse Phantom yet? with the new phantom its like the best thing ever, you just fly away and the go flying the other way lol.

Phantom is ok now, it still needs better HP and a few more frames cut off so Zelda can act after it or at least a few seconds cut off the respawn time but now it functions like a move we can sort of count on, like Fsmash lol.

3/5

I did this in a free for all after a tournament, it was so good. The new hitbox make it the best thing ever.
By the way even if the phantom is destroyed or on the field you can use the DownB to alter your momentum lol.

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

Yay, it's kind of useful now in some real situations. The new hitbox is definitely a plus, but I still feel like it doesn't stay out long enough/have enough health to really be effective in certain matchups where some characters can take it out in one hit. I also think that it's ever so slightly too laggy (which I wouldn't mind if they buffed it in the ways I mentioned before), but the startup isn't too terrible.

One thing that a lot of people don't do is: When you need to ledge guard against a character that doesn't have an amazing recovery, you can: use it offstage. You can B-Reverse it (always B-Reverse, it's the best way) to hit characters recovering low, or if someone is at the right angle and distance, throw one out after a bit of charging and it should KO. It does take practice, but you're throwing out a move with a huge hitbox compared to most of Zelda's aerials. If you're going to use it onstage, almost always B-Reverse it. Just do it. No Shia intended.

It gimps Ike, but still needs more buffs, 3.75/5.

 

[evmaxy54]

I would do something silly post to describe this move

But I haven't been playing this game in a while

So I don't know really tbh

 

[AncientCode42]

Before the patch is was a slow, useless move that beat the point of even using it and had barely any use. Now that Phantom Slash has been buffed I can say it's pretty good, the new windbox makes it great for spacing and reading landings. This gives Zelda options away from the opponent so she doesn't get consistently walled onstage. It's also perfect for gimps too. It also is a pretty good kill move.

The only thing I would say is wrong with it is it needs less end lag, Zelda can still be punished afterwards despite this useful buff. I'd say reduce the end-lag and it would be perfect. I'd also loe it to have a little bit more HP, that way it can better protect Zelda from zoners and with reduced end-lag she would be able to act out of it faster to attack or move around. It also is useful for her custom Phantom Strike, which I switch between the two depending on the MU. Though Idk if this effects Phantom Shield Breaker or not.

I'd give it a 3/5. Could use some work, more specifically with the end-lag, but it's overall decent at best.

 

[Rizen]

Phantom is too slow to be used often but its hitbox is huge. I see phantom less like a standard projectile and more like a method of pressuring limited opponents. If the opponent can't use all their options because they're offstage, in the air, etc phantom can really trap them. A charged phantom slash has huge vertical range.
Zelda can use phantom to block an opponent's projectiles then throw Din's or Farow's through it for extra pressure. She can also charge it in the air without worrying about freefalling SDs *coughDin'scough* and that helps space.

3/5 it has uses but can't be spammed or used recklessly.

 

[MadCanard]

I believe this move has some significant undiscovered uses. We just need to figure them out!

The two best uses I've found for the Phantom are...

1.) Quickly reset to neutral. Throw out a grounded Phantom and your opponent has to either attack it, power through it, stop, run away, or jump over it. Whatever they decide it gives you a second to catch your breath.

2.) Gimp! We've all seen Phantom gimp Lil Mac, Falcon and Ganon, but anybody can be gimped with it. Follow your opponent off the stage and charge that Phantom. If you can get them with it anywhere off the stage there's a good chance they won't be coming back. Learn your opponent's return patterns and take em out.

I think it has a lot of potential to help cover our own recoveries to the ledge. Tossing a phantom out back onto the stage to cover our return. I haven't been able to do this successfully consistent yet. Still working on it.

3.75/5

 

[Crudedude]

before 0.5/5 after 2.5/5 I've been able to edge guard much better and it stops a lot more approaches now. It is ok but zelda can still have games without this move and that is why it is at 2.5 for me. The patch made it much better but in all seriousness zelda doesn't need a move like this I still find the move a redundant. Edge guard B reversing is very helpful and that deserves some praise.

 

[evmaxy54]

So after Phantom is that this series finished until there another patch happens that warrant another discussion to open up?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

So after Phantom is that this series finished until there another patch happens that warrant another discussion to open up?

i think we are ding some custom talk too

 

[Jaguar360]

With patch 1.10, Phantom Slash is a pretty solid projectile for Zelda. The hitbox is large and, when charged, it is pretty strong and has nice range. Its uses include edgeguarding, temporarily guarding Zelda, keeping slower fighters away and just providing pressure in general. Like with Din's Fire, aerial b-reverses can shift Zelda's momentum in the air and provide tricky mixups off or above the stage. The protection from Phantom can also allow Zelda to follow up with Din's Fire, horizontal Farore's, or dash attack/grab to put additional pressure on the opponent.

The move has its issues though. While the blindspot may be fixed, Phantom's HP is too low to effectively guard Zelda and the endlag can make Zelda prone to punishment if she's not far away enough from her opponent (this can especially show against quicker characters like Sonic, C. Falcon and Sheik). The hitbox isn't too quick to come out either.

Phantom Slash does its job well enough, but should be used conservatively as it is prone to punishment if it's not used carefully enough.

3/5

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

If you guys wanna do customs or go over some moves again that were changed in patches then we can do that

 

[evmaxy54]

i think we are ding some custom talk too

 

[MadCanard]

If you guys wanna do customs or go over some moves again that were changed in patches then we can do that

Patch changed moves doesn't sound too bad.

 

[BJN39]

People will probably be giving Jab a second look. It certainly is cool when they increase it's damage, slightly improve its combo consistency, and get rid of TWO shortcomings due to old bad hitbox placing/angles.

 

[Zylach]

Everything's been said about this move already so I'm just gonna give my score and a short description.

3.5/5

A shielding opponent is still a massive threat even with the new hitbox because they can usually punish us. Some more endlag reduction would be wonderful. I love having a good spacing tool now.

 

[ZombieBran]

It's like we have an entire new move! Pretty safe to throw out for some space, almost risk-free edgeguarding, and kills very early should it hit. Too bad people can still dodge through it.
It's also a very good looking move.

3.25/5 for Phantom
Because I like my decimals.

 

[KarmaCastle]

One of the most interesting applications of Phantom is the separate swings. Most players rarely see Zelda in FG, let alone one that actually uses Phantom (passive)aggressively. Out of forced habit most players are going to see/feel the first hitbox of the dash attack without realizing there's an impending up swing and try to get a perfect shield which just isn't possible in that frame period. The double tap has gotten me more free damage and killing blows than I can count, though this is in the context of FG. On the opposite end, mixing up charge times for single swings after catching the opponent with a double swing tends to cause them to shield/spot dodge longer than necessary, allowing an easy punish if they're close enough for our promdress running Princess to catch.

It's also a GREAT mind game tool. Toss out a phantom when the opponent is off stage and most of them panic into an air dodge. It also seems to deter most players from grabbing the ledge, allowing us to get a Din's Fire out, which then causes them to air dodge into landing on stage leading to more easy grab/fsmash combos that are impossible to stop. It's a great manipulative tool when used right.

As for the breversal, anyone have success in terms of more than a cool gimmick? I rarely find opponents low enough to the stage to breverse my phantom. I'd rather dair 9/10 times if that is the case.

Overall it's hard to rate because of the inconsistency and how it can be used. Sometimes it's easily a 4.5, sometimes it's a 2. I guess I'll leave it at a 3.2? That feels right.

Edit:

People will probably be giving Jab a second look. It certainly is cool when they increase it's damage, slightly improve its combo consistency, and get rid of TWO shortcomings due to old bad hitbox placing/angles.

I now find myself using Jab in every match with great success. Jab used to be a last resort tool for me if they were just sitting in my face trying to bait out a dodge or shield into grab. I think it'd be good to revisit as well.

Edit2:

Could we actually have a discussion focusing solely on weaknesses and what we come short of? We've hit the generic ups and downs of each ability, but I feel like addressing issues and finding creative ways to fix them would be really constructive. It could be another thread if needed. Discovering things like the nair>FW true combo and JC OOS FW to punish "unpunishable" abilities really helps. I just think it'd be cool to brainstorm idea like that. \o/

 

[ZombieBran]

Could we actually have a discussion focusing solely on weaknesses and what we come short of? We've hit the generic ups and downs of each ability, but I feel like addressing issues and finding creative ways to fix them would be really constructive. It could be another thread if needed. Discovering things like the nair>FW true combo and JC OOS FW to punish "unpunishable" abilities really helps. I just think it'd be cool to brainstorm idea like that. \o/

I support this idea.
Right now we just scatter things across the (top tier) data thread, the (top tier) social, and various threads like the matchup thread and stage thread.
It's a mess, like Zelda.

 

[Rion]

Well, since we're talking about Phantom Slash...

Spoiler

http://gfycat.com/ThirstyDizzyCivet <= Use this to see it in slower motion!

I was fairly shocked that it connected honestly! Not that I'm complaining~

 

[Rickster]

The image and link don't work for me.

Smashboards doesn't want the move to be seen.

 

[ZombieBran]

Phantom is like the most hype Zelda move to land, on par with kicks. I said this before but it's honestly gorgeous.

 

[Rickster]

At my local people really like Elevators and Kicks. No one gets excited for the Phantom because like 2 people actually know what it does, lol.

 

[KarmaCastle]

Relevant to Phantom, after watching another player's video containing the same thing, figure I'd bring it up.

Lately I've noticed my Phantom spawning in the direction I was last MOVING, rather than I'm facing. Example:

Dash attack link off stage. Recovering medium-low. Dash back to roll distance and turn towards the off-stage to spawn phantom; suddenly I'm facing away from the ledge and my phantom comes zooming out to mock me as I end up being on the receiving end of a punish.

I've also tested this in training mode and found it to be true. It appears to only take place if you:

A: turn directions without moving any horizontal distance.

B: Cast the phantom immediately after changing direction, even with a stutter of movement.

While this may have some technical advantages(?) I find it incredibly obnoxious. The easy workaround is to move before casting, buuut that can be quite a hassle in a game like Smash where windows of opportunity are so small.

Of course I could be bad and am consistently accidentally b-reversing myself even though I can hardly reverse anything when I'm actually trying to If this is the case and I am a shameful sham, then it's really bizarre because this hasn't happened to ANY OTHER ABILITIES of Zelda (IE Dins fire) or any other characters I like to mess around with from time to time. (Samus, Palutena, Peach). Even when I first started playing and was trying out Sheik in Sm4sh I never once bouncing fished the wrong direction.

Well, since we're talking about Phantom Slash...

I was fairly shocked that it connected honestly! Not that I'm complaining~

Looks like it was PERFECTLY timed by you(?). From what I can gather Sheik started feeling spooked from the phantom and figured she'd jump over it and punish you. But it was she who was punished for her insolence :^))

 

[PUK]

Relevant to Phantom, after watching another player's video containing the same thing, figure I'd bring it up.

Lately I've noticed my Phantom spawning in the direction I was last MOVING, rather than I'm facing. Example:

Dash attack link off stage. Recovering medium-low. Dash back to roll distance and turn towards the off-stage to spawn phantom; suddenly I'm facing away from the ledge and my phantom comes zooming out to mock me as I end up being on the receiving end of a punish.

I've also tested this in training mode and found it to be true. It appears to only take place if you:

A: turn directions without moving any horizontal distance.

B: Cast the phantom immediately after changing direction, even with a stutter of movement.

While this may have some technical advantages(?) I find it incredibly obnoxious. The easy workaround is to move before casting, buuut that can be quite a hassle in a game like Smash where windows of opportunity are so small.

Of course I could be bad and am consistently accidentally b-reversing myself even though I can hardly reverse anything when I'm actually trying to If this is the case and I am a shameful sham, then it's really bizarre because this hasn't happened to ANY OTHER ABILITIES of Zelda (IE Dins fire) or any other characters I like to mess around with from time to time. (Samus, Palutena, Peach). Even when I first started playing and was trying out Sheik in Sm4sh I never once bouncing fished the wrong direction.



Looks like it was PERFECTLY timed by you(?). From what I can gather Sheik started feeling spooked from the phantom and figured she'd jump over it and punish you. But it was she who was punished for her insolence :^))

Down B are really easy to accidentely b reverse. When you look a ROB, Zelda, or sheik match it pretty common.

 

[Zylach]

Relevant to Phantom, after watching another player's video containing the same thing, figure I'd bring it up.

Lately I've noticed my Phantom spawning in the direction I was last MOVING, rather than I'm facing. Example:

Dash attack link off stage. Recovering medium-low. Dash back to roll distance and turn towards the off-stage to spawn phantom; suddenly I'm facing away from the ledge and my phantom comes zooming out to mock me as I end up being on the receiving end of a punish.

I've also tested this in training mode and found it to be true. It appears to only take place if you:

A: turn directions without moving any horizontal distance.

B: Cast the phantom immediately after changing direction, even with a stutter of movement.

While this may have some technical advantages(?) I find it incredibly obnoxious. The easy workaround is to move before casting, buuut that can be quite a hassle in a game like Smash where windows of opportunity are so small.

Of course I could be bad and am consistently accidentally b-reversing myself even though I can hardly reverse anything when I'm actually trying to If this is the case and I am a shameful sham, then it's really bizarre because this hasn't happened to ANY OTHER ABILITIES of Zelda (IE Dins fire) or any other characters I like to mess around with from time to time. (Samus, Palutena, Peach). Even when I first started playing and was trying out Sheik in Sm4sh I never once bouncing fished the wrong direction.



Looks like it was PERFECTLY timed by you(?). From what I can gather Sheik started feeling spooked from the phantom and figured she'd jump over it and punish you. But it was she who was punished for her insolence :^))

This is usually due to the control stick being a little over-sensitive. I always try to aim the control stick slightly in the direction I want the phantom to go instead of aiming it straight down 270 degrees. If I want it to go left, I'll aim the stick around 260 degrees. If I'm aiming right, 280 degrees.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I think it's best now that we've done all of Zelda's to make this thread more casual sooo continue talking about Phantom, bring up moves that were changed in patches, talk about possible new uses of moves, whatever you want

 

[Macchiato]

whatever you want

Zelda Social 2.0

 

[BJN39]

@ S.F.L.R_9 I hope you don't mind I made a little temp title ediT to make that clearer then~

 

[gir-sage]

Has anyone made research in FW ledge cancel stage specifics?

 

[Rickster]

Has anyone made research in FW ledge cancel stage specifics?

I posted some (bad) pictures of some of the stages' locations somewhere in the Fairy Fountain. I might redo them sometime using Miiverse's screenshot feature.

But @ evmaxy54 might have already done that. (I saw your posts on Miiverse)

 

[gir-sage]

I posted some (bad) pictures of some of the stages' locations somewhere in the Fairy Fountain. I might redo them sometime using Miiverse's screenshot feature.

But @ evmaxy54 might have already done that. (I saw your posts on Miiverse)

Oh I see.
I was practicing and noticed some details.

Lylat cruise and castle siege are horrible stages to try it because they tilt.
Becuase of the dream land landing glitch, it is not possible to try it.

Has anyone tried FWlc and using phantom b reverse afterwards? Is it effective to use as an edgeguard tool?

 

[Rickster]

Oh I see.
I was practicing and noticed some details.

Lylat cruise and castle siege are horrible stages to try it because they tilt.
Becuase of the dream land landing glitch, it is not possible to try it.

Has anyone tried FWlc and using phantom b reverse afterwards? Is it effective to use as an edgeguard tool?

It actually is doable on Dream Land, but you have to start the Teleport in the air, rather than on the ground. Running off the platforms is an easier way to do it.