Wisdom's Weapons - Zelda Moveset Analysis/Discussion [Currently casually discussing~]

[evmaxy54]

I want to ask y'all about the properties of Dair.

I was in training against Sheik the other day and I kept sweetspot Dairing her. I would reset her health to 0% between every hit. Every hit was a sweetspot. Sometimes she would be put into hitstun but stayed standing. Sometimes she would be put into hitstun and grounded in front of me.

Does anyone know why Dair has different results? Is it where the sweetspot Dair hits Sheik or something else?

Dair has a possibility of causing tripping

 

[MadCanard]

Dair has a possibility of causing tripping

Thanks. Thought that might be the case. This makes me wish we had a quick tilt that could jab lock. As far as I know, our only jab lock moves are Dair, Fair, and Bair (all sour spot).

 

[KarmaCastle]

I've been getting really consistent results lately from dthrow > nair > sweetspot kicks on medium-heavy characters at low percents. Do we have any confirmation on if this is considered a true combo, or just a case of perfect DI circumstances? Against big blocky characters like Ganon, Rob, Ike and Bowser I've had almost a perfect rate of this combo. And for pretty much 30-40% free damage in the first 20 seconds of the round, I'll certainly take it.

Also I've been thinking... If we just added more shield knockback to her sweetspots wouldn't that be a good balance technique? Make sweet spotting any of her abilities (dair too!) cause knockback. This would give her an approach game and even a neutral zone that says "get this close and there's a blue moon's chance you might get destroyed with a sweet spot maybe probably hopefully" with shorthops. Iunno. Just thinking outside the usual box of lag/%/ftilt stuff.

 

[Crudedude]

Zelda's set isn't bad and I feel like project m does a good job showing what it could be, however she has some pretty dumb properties and overlapping issues. Like ftilt, I feel like when ever I used it I could have Fsmash, jab, or dash attack, I would like it to be different again pop opponents behind once more and clank with attacks (with less end lag of course). Zelda has too much transcendent attacks which hold her back more than it helps her, but I would be okay if she loses her ftilt and phantom for some new moves. I will be honest I'm a bit salty losing sheik and sheik losing Zelda but at least sheik gets a bread and butter special, mean while zelda got Dins fire 2.0.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Zelda's set isn't bad and I feel like project m does a good job showing what it could be, however she has some pretty dumb properties and overlapping issues. Like ftilt, I feel like when ever I used it I could have Fsmash, jab, or dash attack, I would like it to be different again pop opponents behind once more and clank with attacks (with less end lag of course). Zelda has too much transcendent attacks which hold her back more than it helps her, but I would be okay if she loses her ftilt and phantom for some new moves. I will be honest I'm a bit salty losing sheik and sheik losing Zelda but at least sheik gets a bread and butter special, mean while zelda got Dins fire 2.0.

Phantom really isn't so bad (especially since recent patch) if you think of him more as a Counter offensive move rather than a projectile you see he's not bad just a few kinks that could be ironed out to make him really good and not just good enough to get by.

Trancendant priority isn't bad its just a lot of Zelda's moves are multi hits so when it comes to trades she's usually on the losing end because she only did 1%. it also helps that we always have a chance at winning when colliding with other attacks cause of no clank

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

Okay gorls, so after doing some experimentation with a certain version of Brawl... ...What makes Zelda good there is:

• Din's Fire doesn't cause free fall, nor has the lag of a million years, and it's fast too allowing her to zone very well. It also has a traveling hitbox when returning to her... why doesn't ours do all that?
• Lagning Kicks are no longer Lagning Kicks/have been reverted to Melee's style pretty much.
• Utilt is an "lol bye" move again.
• Ftilt doesn't whiff constantly, hits them back at a combo angle for... combos, like the old one.
• Uair has moar powaer, and is easier to land (due to the added hitbox)
• You can cancel Farore's for better mobility.
• Bthrow kills

Meanwhile, our Zelda has over that one:

• Farore's is a kill move, great for sniping/tech chasing, and elevator. Also, it autosnaps the ledge and goes farther I believe.
• Better Dtilt.
• Better Dthrow, Fthrow?
• Nair links together better
• Better Dair. Edit: ours is just easier to land.
• Better Jab range I think, probably launch angle as well, I'll have to look more into the other one.
• The Phantom allows her to throw out a giant disjointed attack that acts as a wall and is a great spacing tool.
• Faster run speed.

Basically what makes the other Zelda so good is her safer LKicks, and a good Din's. If our Zelda had a good Din's and better LKicks, she'd be in pretty awesome shape. Zelda's not terrible, she just lacks a good projectile and has some pretty stupid lag on some moves.

 

[Meek Moths]

I had a vision:

what if Fair looked like her Ftilt?

it would have some start up but good damage, knockback and low lag, so basically greninja's Fair

will never happen tho

 

[PUK]

So are you aware of the mechanic change applied to hitlag on shield. It could be a unexpected buff to our fair and bair and maybe fsmash too not sure.

 

[evmaxy54]

So are you aware of the mechanic change applied to hitlag on shield. It could be a unexpected buff to our fair and bair and maybe fsmash too not sure.

Details?

 

[Rickster]

So are you aware of the mechanic change applied to hitlag on shield. It could be a unexpected buff to our fair and bair and maybe fsmash too not sure.

Wait huh? Is this really a thing?

Now that I think about it I WAS getting away with a lot of blocked Fsmashes the other day...

So...could this be looked at as a possible stealthy way to change shield stun?

EDIT: There's some discussion going on in the patch thread, I think.

 

[BJN39]

Oh, that's an interesting change. Only a few of Zelda's moves have hitlag modifiers: Dsmash attack's sweet-spot, Usmash's final hit, LKs, Phantom Slash, FW2.

Still it's a small positive change for all of those. It would equate to a small block disadvantage reduction. Like, only 1-3 frames, but still.

 

[Rickster]

Brb spamming Kicks like it's Melee now

 

[Darktundra]

Brb spamming Kicks like it's Melee now

Do you mean that LK opponents from 1000 feet

 

[Sailor Mercury]

a so good is her safer LKicks, and a good Din's. If our Zelda had a good Din's and better LKicks, she'd be in pretty awesome shape. Zelda's not terrible, she just lacks a good projectile and has some pretty stupid lag on some moves.

That's basically what I've been saying. Lightning kicks on sm4sh are terrible. The amount of end lag is a joke. I prefer brawl's kicks to melee because of the combos that you can get from them(see jujux broken heels combo video). Not to mention it just felt so good to land a lightning kick on brawl, the lightning effect, the sound, the pause before your opponent went flying..Melee didn't have that.
Lightning kick needs to be reverted to brawl style, or rather the amount of endlag that brawl's kicks had. Nayru's love needs same endlag as brawl's too.

I like din's fire on sm4sh, because of the kill potential, but the range is kinda terrible..Not to mention actually landing one on a competent player happens next to never..And, well, the free fall I think it's safe to say every zelda hates it. They removed the free fall of fox/falco's side b, he was already a higher tiered character, why did Zelda get left out?

 

[Rickster]

Speaking of Kicks, a single kick will break a newly regenerated shield (aka the amount of shield you have after you recover from a shield break). So...if you see someone's shield that's about that size, try and break it!

 

[evmaxy54]

That's basically what I've been saying. Lightning kicks on sm4sh are terrible. The amount of end lag is a joke. I prefer brawl's kicks to melee because of the combos that you can get from them(see jujux broken heels combo video). Not to mention it just felt so good to land a lightning kick on brawl, the lightning effect, the sound, the pause before your opponent went flying..Melee didn't have that.
Lightning kick needs to be reverted to brawl style, or rather the amount of endlag that brawl's kicks had. Nayru's love needs same endlag as brawl's too.

I like din's fire on sm4sh, because of the kill potential, but the range is kinda terrible..Not to mention actually landing one on a competent player happens next to never..And, well, the free fall I think it's safe to say every zelda hates it. They removed the free fall of fox/falco's side b, he was already a higher tiered character, why did Zelda get left out?

Except Nayru's Love has the same endlag as Brawl...

 

[BJN39]

That's basically what I've been saying. Lightning kicks on sm4sh are terrible. The amount of end lag is a joke. I prefer brawl's kicks to melee because of the combos that you can get from them(see jujux broken heels combo video). Not to mention it just felt so good to land a lightning kick on brawl, the lightning effect, the sound, the pause before your opponent went flying..Melee didn't have that.
Lightning kick needs to be reverted to brawl style, or rather the amount of endlag that brawl's kicks had. Nayru's love needs same endlag as brawl's too.

I like din's fire on sm4sh, because of the kill potential, but the range is kinda terrible..Not to mention actually landing one on a competent player happens next to never..And, well, the free fall I think it's safe to say every zelda hates it. They removed the free fall of fox/falco's side b, he was already a higher tiered character, why did Zelda get left out?

Literally if Melee kicks were in you would never want Brawl kicks. The amount of damage/KB Melee sour-spots did was actually amazing, and would probably translate into some combo in SSB4 if bet. Since the sweet-spot was the entire outer hitbox it had legitimate range. The endlag was also even shorter than Brawl's. If they were given fancy hitlag (Which itself is actually not good for the move.) then you'd forget all about Brawl kicks.

I think you are legitimately the first person I've seen here that would take Brawl kicks over Melee's, even though they are strictly a downgrade. To each his own, since I have some weird opinion/preferences.

Except Nayru's Love has the same endlag as Brawl...

Beat to the punch.

 

[Rickster]

If only we could have the hitbox size of Melee, with the frame data of Brawl, with the hitbox placement of Smash 4's...

But that might be a little too much.

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but Utilt and Ftilt trading places in move purposes I think hurts Zelda a lot. Hitting an Ftilt to set up a combo was way more practical than Utilt due to its much better range, and it had a better launch angle too. Utilt as a KO moved worked well because you couldn't approach her from the air at high percentages unless you wanted to say goodbye to your stock. It was worth eating that transcendent aerial. Now with them switched, you have less range for a combo starter, and more for a KO move with less knockback. This change really did not help her at all, and I'd like to see Zelda having her old Ftilt and Utilt as opposed to the new ones. New Dtilt is more useful IMO though.

 

[BJN39]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but Utilt and Ftilt trading places in move purposes I think hurts Zelda a lot. Hitting an Ftilt to set up a combo was way more practical than Utilt due to its much better range, and it had a better launch angle too. Utilt as a KO moved worked well because you couldn't approach her from the air at high percentages unless you wanted to say goodbye to your stock. It was worth eating that transcendent aerial. Now with them switched, you have less range for a combo starter, and more for a KO move with less knockback. This change really did not help her at all, and I'd like to see Zelda having her old Ftilt and Utilt as opposed to the new ones. New Dtilt is more useful IMO though.

Well, in theory yes, a KO Utilt and combo Ftilt would be better, but in Brawl, I would say both did poor jobs at those things. Ftilt definitely had too much end lag in all Sakurai smash games to ever true combo, and Utilt's Brawl angle was low enough good DI made it a somewhat underwhelming KO option for its frame data. So, yes, but, Brawl didn't really have that down well in the first place.

 

[Macchiato]

I find something very useful which I haven't seen much used by Zelda mains. It's holding down when recovering so it doesn't ledgesnap so attempted edgeguards will get punished instead. This could make Zelda extremely hard to punish. Characters like Jigglypuff and Peach who benefit from the one frame at the ledge will really have trouble with this.

On stages like the first phase of Castle Siege and Town&City, jab locks are very practical. At low percents, a dthrow to nair is mostly what Zelda would get. If they land on a platform and don't tech, you can jab lock with a sour LK. With high rage this can get early elevator kills. With no rage you can get another combo or a charged smash which is great.

After testing in many matches with good players. Teleport canceling could help with landing. If you know the distance or spot to teleport, this can get safe landings something Zelda struggles with. Especially on BF-esque stages, the platforms make this especially useful for safer landings. It's also useful for edgeguarding but I feel like this tech has lots of potential.

 

[Rickster]

I prefer the new Utilt mainly because it gives us another low risk move to use in neutral(something that Zelda needs). Also Utilt chains are fun, along with the true combos into Uair, Nair, and Farore's.

 

[Sailor Mercury]

Except Nayru's Love has the same endlag as Brawl...

They certainly did something to it, because you can't do certain moves after doing a love jump like you could in brawl, you can't react as fast out of a love jump I should say.

Literally if Melee kicks were in you would never want Brawl kicks. The amount of damage/KB Melee sour-spots did was actually amazing, and would probably translate into some combo in SSB4 if bet. Since the sweet-spot was the entire outer hitbox it had legitimate range. The endlag was also even shorter than Brawl's. If they were given fancy hitlag (Which itself is actually not good for the move.) then you'd forget all about Brawl kicks.

I think you are legitimately the first person I've seen here that would take Brawl kicks over Melee's, even though they are strictly a downgrade. To each his own, since I have some weird opinion/preferences.

I know, I really liked brawl's Zelda. I know the endlag was shorter, but it wasn't as satisfying to hit. Of course there would be combos, but the combo sour spot kick>nair>sweet spot kick was a pretty solid true combo that I got tons of kills off of. Either way, brawl or melee, is much better than sm4sh. Zelda didn't deserve what they did to her kicks in sm4sh.

 

[Rickster]

I've been experimenting with Uthrow>Kick lately. It's not a combo, but it's a nice setup and it reminds me of Melee Zelda's Uthrow stuff. Works better on floaties.

I'm trying to find "new" stuff since my Zelda has started feeling really flowcharty. Plus I want to learn how to style more.

 

[Macchiato]

I've been experimenting with Uthrow>Kick lately. It's not a combo, but it's a nice setup and it reminds me of Melee Zelda's Uthrow stuff. Works better on floaties.

I'm trying to find "new" stuff since my Zelda has started feeling really flowcharty. Plus I want to learn how to style more.

Teleport cancelling helps. It's something I'm trying to explore. I feel like it has so much potential. also holding down to not snap the ledge while recovering is a good mixup.

 

[Rickster]

Teleport cancelling helps. It's something I'm trying to explore. I feel like it has so much potential. also holding down to not snap the ledge while recovering is a good mixup.

Yeah I've been applying that in my gameplay a lot more recently. I only failed once during friendlies at a tourney, but most of the successful cancels didn't do anything. I nearly got an Uair KO out of one, but I missed and got Bair'd instead, lol.

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

Well, in theory yes, a KO Utilt and combo Ftilt would be better, but in Brawl, I would say both did poor jobs at those things. Ftilt definitely had too much end lag in all Sakurai smash games to ever true combo, and Utilt's Brawl angle was low enough good DI made it a somewhat underwhelming KO option for its frame data. So, yes, but, Brawl didn't really have that down well in the first place.

Well still, imagine if we had those things but they were fixed with better frame data (and no dead zone on Fair). Ugh, Zelda's frame data. That'd be a pretty awesome setup don't you think?

Tbh I don't remember Brawlda too much, but I'm familiar with the rest of them (including "Not Sakurai Brawl"), so if I say anything about old comparisons, it'll usually be towards the other ones and not Brawl, just for future reference. There's a reason why I have Ike up instead of Zelda for my Brawl main. What I do remember from Brawl was her Din's Fire, Lkicks, Utilt, Uair, and kind of Ftilt and Usmash. The rest is a mystery to me. My Wii broke a long time ago too, so I mean... I went several years without playing her and only having access to , who is completely different from (4 > Melee). I'm still kind of hazy on Melee Zelda tbh, since the best option when you were losing was always Down B, therefore less time spent with just Zelda. (I must say Zelda has always looked the best in her lilac dress.)

 

[Sailor Mercury]

Teleport cancelling helps. It's something I'm trying to explore. I feel like it has so much potential. also holding down to not snap the ledge while recovering is a good mixup.

If you can master it, the potential from is it just as ridiculous as it is hard to master. It's pretty difficult since even the slightest mistake in where your teleport will end up results in death. But, if you become comfortable with it and accurate enough, it's pretty crazy what kind of things can be pulled off. I personally never took the time to do so, it's too risky for me.

 

[Meek Moths]

holding down to not snap the ledge while recovering is a good mixup.

there is another technique similiar to this that i saw nobody use


When you're above the ledge, teleport down but right after zelea disappears, quickly let go of the control stick. this will make zelda grab the ledge and it's pretty useful.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

brawl Utilt let peach know to not just toss out Fairs all willy nilly if she was over 90% cause the trade kill for Zelda was so delicious.

but I do like the Utilt chains that happen in smash 4. I just wish the move had a bit more range so the AA was better after the combos stop working.

 

[Darktundra]

What if they gave up tilt low base knockback but disgustingly high knockback growth? Around 200 KBG and 20 KB would be like the last hit of up smash. Now up tilt will start with chains and ends as a finisher. I would take this over a range buff any day but both would this move lethal.

 

[KarmaCastle]

I really miss pre-patch USmash.

The massive nerf to the side hitbox ;=; I used to get kills with it all the time. Used to reach almost as far as NL. People don't fall out of it as much now, but still. Used to be a good go-to option for me when in close combat and at high percents.

 

[BJN39]

I really miss pre-patch USmash.

The massive nerf to the side hitbox ;=; I used to get kills with it all the time. Used to reach almost as far as NL. People don't fall out of it as much now, but still. Used to be a good go-to option for me when in close combat and at high percents.

I think there may be a mixup here. Pre-patch Usmash had even worse range then it does now. Brawl Usmash had good horizontal range, not SSB4.

 

[r_greening1]

I find something very useful which I haven't seen much used by Zelda mains. It's holding down when recovering so it doesn't ledgesnap so attempted edgeguards will get punished instead. This could make Zelda extremely hard to punish. Characters like Jigglypuff and Peach who benefit from the one frame at the ledge will really have trouble with this.

Hasn't @ evmaxy54 been preaching this for the past couple of months to us? lol

On stages like the first phase of Castle Siege and Town&City, jab locks are very practical. At low percents, a dthrow to nair is mostly what Zelda would get. If they land on a platform and don't tech, you can jab lock with a sour LK. With high rage this can get early elevator kills. With no rage you can get another combo or a charged smash which is great.

I usually get mine with a sour d-air, because the timing seems weird for a f-air or b-air.
Then again, I screw my punish everytime because I elevator a split second too early smh

 

[KarmaCastle]

I think there may be a mixup here. Pre-patch Usmash had even worse range then it does now. Brawl Usmash had good horizontal range, not SSB4.

Wait, what? But Usmash used to scoop people up from below me and to the side with ease; now I find it's almost impossible to get anybody who's note already directly above or on top of me, and short characters are even more obnoxious.

If it wasn't in 1.10, there had to have been a nerf to the horizontal range at some point. I checked the history and apparently only 1.0.8 buffed it by a bit; that's really, really strange. I used to use usmash in the cheesiest ways while it seemed to vacuum people in from the sides, and now the visual matches the hitboxes waaaay better, actually becoming the small cone above Zelda making it much harder to use.

That's so freaking weird. A ganon main friend of mine pointed it out and said it was pretty ridiculous how far it used to reach to the sides. Gahhh I'm in the matrix someone let me out I found a glitch in the system.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

maybe pre patch usmash had random auto link suction nobody knew about because I also had usmash pre 1.0.8 sucks some characters in from the sides like Nayrus from time to time. So she's not entirely alone here

it might have just been the normal hitbox though pulling in taller people cause I do remember marth bowing at my feet as I sucked him in pre 1.0.8

 

[BJN39]

I was able to see the hitbox data since 1.0.4, and there isn't some odd sucking hitbox (Unless you were talking about the whole move pre-1.0.8 secretkpop) the one difference that could give it a sense of dragging opponents in more is that the side hitboxes had higher KB pre-1.0.8, so they brought people in farther and faster.

This also lead to it dropping characters mid move. Either way the lower current KB is always still enough to get the job done. The hitboxes were never bigger in SSB4 patches then they are now, either.

 

[evmaxy54]

Hasn't @ evmaxy54 been preaching this for the past couple of months to us? lol

Yes

Because I'm amazing

Because it is amazing

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

Reasonable Din's Fire buffs that would make it more useful:

• Make it move quicker
• Give it somewhat better range and/or control
• Put a traveling hitbox on it so we have a semi-conventional projectile that won't pass through opponents and do absolutely nothing. It's a traveling ball of fire. I can't imagine how many times that would've been useful or helped in some way.
• Less end/startup lag

~Leaving out No Free Fall because that's extremely unrealistic given that Sakurai is Sakurai~
I think our most likely (realistic) buff, if we get one, would be less end lag, considering Sak is obsessed with giving the Phantom less end lag (yet no health buffs, but praise the 0% hitbox), so why not this one? Anything to make that move more useful would be such a blessing. She needs it almost as much as Samus needs buffs in general... Maybe more.

 

[Rickster]

I hope Din's gets nerfed again so we'll get another buff somewhere else to make up for it.