Wisdom's Weapons - Zelda Moveset Analysis/Discussion [Currently casually discussing~]

[Macchiato]

would b-reversing Din's have any use?

 

[Rickster]

There's that one thing where you can ledge cancel Farore's into a B-Reverse Din's but...it's not really that useful.

Basically all that happens is that she goes the the very edge of the stage and uses Din's. It's risky too since you might SD.

 

[evmaxy54]

I posted some (bad) pictures of some of the stages' locations somewhere in the Fairy Fountain. I might redo them sometime using Miiverse's screenshot feature.

But @ evmaxy54 might have already done that. (I saw your posts on Miiverse)

Yea.... =3

I was meant to post them much earlier but I forgot lol

 

[Darktundra]

Issues with Zelda moveset due to frame data
Jab
Dash Attack
Grab (standard/dash/pivot)
Din's Fire
Nair
Lightning kicks
U-air
Nayru's Love
F-tilt
Issues with Zelda due to range
up smash
DOWN SMASH
D-tilt
Nayru's Love
Jab (Vertical range)
Lightning Kicks
F-tilt
NAIR
Issues with Zelda due to lack of kill power
Lightning kicks
U-air
Phantom Slash
Nair
Attributes that would help Zelda
Higher Air speed
More weight,(Ness is heavier than Zelda)

 

[JigglyZelda003]

@ Darktundra gurl you got an issue with her whole moveset hon

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

He's right.
Some of her moves are actually fine(to me)the way they are, some need some slight improvement to be perfect(to me)
Her Utilt, Dtilt,Ftilt,Dair,dash attack are fine as they are for sure.
Her NL, Phantom,Fsmash,FW(if used offensivly) could use less endlag, her Usmash needs More range or less lag, Dsmash could increase in range, Nair needs less landing lag and more range, Uair could be better, but idk how, same with Jab.

Fair,Bair,Dins need HUGE changes or something.

 

[Macchiato]

is Zelda next?

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

tbh those "Everything Wrong with [character] in Smash 4" videos are kinda annoying and I really don't wanna see them make one for Zelda. Yeah your character has problems, okay....work with it and find ways to get past those problems instead of making a Youtube video on them

 

[Darktundra]

Would it be overpowered if they center Zelda's moveset on her lightning kicks like they did in Melee?
Sweetspot size 1.9->3.0
Landing lag 23/25->18
Fair IASA 53->37
Bair IASA 53->34
This is basically overpowered on any other character except Zelda. SH double bair would break shields and her strongest aerials can connect more reliably and will stuff approaches.
Zelda's lightning kicks need to be overpowered.
The fact that they only have 4 active frames and leaves you with three options: 23/25 frames of landing lag, 40/44 frames of aerial lag, or both kills Zelda's air game.

 

[BJN39]

is Zelda next?

No.

Zelda doesn't have the same flaws like this aside Ftilt, and ONLY Ftilt. Maybe if you're picky you'd want her UAir GFX timing atched better with the hitbox but w/e.

Even then some of these are picky, like MewTwo being hit before teleporting all the way. It's called startup.

 

[ZombieBran]

tbh those "Everything Wrong with [character] in Smash 4" videos are kinda annoying and I really don't wanna see them make one for Zelda. Yeah your character has problems, okay....work with it and find ways to get past those problems instead of making a Youtube video on them

I don't mind them cause they're hilarious

the name of the tumblr which made that gif though
> drunknhotboyz
CarlyRae.gif

 

[MOI-ARI]

Yeah i agree Zelda really doesn't need one. (or anybody)She doesn't have any real wonky **** like Samus and Mewtwo.

That Mewtwo video is kinda 'meh' imo. But his 'Tail' moves ARE hilarious. 'x)

 

[ZombieBran]

Suicidal_Donuts pointed it out in the 'Samus is Worst?' thread and I think we all realized this by Brawl but Zelda's moveset is not her problem, though it could be buffed some more. And Din's is very much a problem.

An 'Everything wrong with Zelda' video would be Ftilt whiffs, Din's fail, and just like her run speed. Not as funny or informative as Samus' and even Mewtwo's.

Ok, Lagning Kicks too.

 

[KarmaCastle]

Ok, Lagning Kicks too.

People put a lot of hate on DF. But with some preemo timing it forces an air dodge into a free fsmash. Though faster speed and less damage (same sweetspot launch, imo) would be niiice.

Also I get that a move that can KO at 70 and deal 21 damage when sweetspotted needs to have a bit of risk to it, but the fact that I can get consistently punished after landing a sweetspot on shield is pretty messed up .

Edit: Also accidentally necro'd an old thread when I saw another user make a recent comment but it was starting to address SH combos. I feel like that's a really good place to go with the discussion in relation to our weaknesses and playing without 100% risk on literally every ability except our jab and dtilt.

 

[Nickat98]

So I noticed back when we discussed or LK's and some people said "why shouldn't it insta sheild break?" And I've been thinking about this, and insta sheild breaking with the LK would be OP ...but why shouldn't it's sweet spot be un-techable after like 60% or so...it's hard enough to hit this laggy move on stage so if we get it off stage I think we deserve some gift in return...idk if this sounds OP or not, but it surely isn't as OP as an insta sheild break

 

[Rickster]

I think it would be nice if sweetspotted Kicks had half the landing lag, even on shield. It would give us a slightly better approach game (but still bad) and could open up some shield pressure stuff. In fact, this could be a thing for all aerials of this type.

Probably won't ever happen though. I think the sis @ JigglyZelda003 mentioned this in some thread awhile ago, actually.

 

[PUK]

Why? It's already untechable if you touch thé stage.
Imo LK problem would be more acceptable if landing one on the side of the stage at around 40% was death guarented.
Right now i think the strenght doesn't compensate for the lag and the necessity of sweetspoting it.
Same problem with Uair, we have no grab set up (Dthrow to Uair rarely work) and on a frame 14 laggy disjoint, killing at 103% on Mario standing on the top platform of BF is bs.
Imo it should have lucario's Uair kb values.
Basically i'm fine with Zelda having dangerous for both players kill move, and less dangerous tools, but right now they are only dangerous for Zelda.
Finally i want a Dtilt buff. Why the hitbox stays that long, i would prefer a shorter hitbox but less endlag, giving one more safe tool, and kill set up from a poke. Like Utilt, a combo tool should combo into more variety of things.
And finally Ftilt, this move is pure garbage, but mostly because it has no purpose, make him another combo tool or a real kill move, but right know it's outclassed by dash attack as a quick punish, fsmash as a disjoint kill move, jab and Dtilt as a footsie tool.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

People put a lot of hate on DF. But with some preemo timing it forces an air dodge into a free fsmash. Though faster speed and less damage (same sweetspot launch, imo) would be niiice.

Also I get that a move that can KO at 70 and deal 21 damage when sweetspotted needs to have a bit of risk to it, but the fact that I can get consistently punished after landing a sweetspot on shield is pretty messed up .

Edit: Also accidentally necro'd an old thread when I saw another user make a recent comment but it was starting to address SH combos. I feel like that's a really good place to go with the discussion in relation to our weaknesses and playing without 100% risk on literally every ability except our jab and dtilt.

I actually made a very long post in support of Dins.

Honestly Dins being either faster or with better control plus a better hitbox with either of those buffs would push Zelda to being the mid tier Rosalind. Her core problem is with approach/forcing approach and the new Phantom has made things a tad better but round it out with a Dins buff and she'll survive for this game.

While I still believe perfect kicks should have half the landing lag if they just added better sheild stun/push back that would help Zelda too cause right now they are a sketchy threat that's destroyed by PS. Zelda risk alot for those kicks, not as hard to land as brawl but brawls also didn't lag as much with better animations.

Pantom also needs an HP increase so he doesn't get one shotted so fast. Just a couple percent like maybe 18% or make it where he takes half the damage when he's attacking and normal damage after he's just standing there thus way trade outs still net Zelda some reward when phantom is Faired by Peach lol.

not necessary but welcome changes would be Ftilt getting a sourspot to fix its dead zone, Dsmash getting a slight range buff or just make it kill %20 earlier, grab being faster.

 

[Darktundra]

Why? It's already untechable if you touch thé stage.
Imo LK problem would be more acceptable if landing one on the side of the stage at around 40% was death guarented.
Right now i think the strenght doesn't compensate for the lag and the necessity of sweetspoting it.
Same problem with Uair, we have no grab set up (Dthrow to Uair rarely work) and on a frame 14 laggy disjoint, killing at 103% on Mario standing on the top platform of BF is bs.
Imo it should have lucario's Uair kb values

Those are the same values Uair had in brawl
Bkb 30
KBG 110
Now
Bkb 30
Kbg 90

 

[Meru.]

I was playing on the 3DS some days ago in the train with a friend of mine. Since I never play on the 3DS and the controls suck, I would press forward instead of downward when edgegaurding, which caused me to Fair instead of Dair.

The shocking thing is that it actually worked consistently. I got sweetspots pretty often and sourspots were also enough to at bully my opponent. It made me think we may have to mess more with her aerials since they seem be safer and more practical for edgeguarding purposes.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I was playing on the 3DS some days ago in the train with a friend of mine. Since I never play on the 3DS and the controls suck, I would press forward instead of downward when edgegaurding, which caused me to Fair instead of Dair.

The shocking thing is that it actually worked consistently. I got sweetspots pretty often and sourspots were also enough to at bully my opponent. It made me think we may have to mess more with her aerials since they seem be safer and more practical for edgeguarding purposes.

@SBphiloz4 has some nasty Fair ledge shenanigans in her highlight videos, Zelda's offstage game when she's on the offense isn't bad just some people don't take advantage of it enough other than going for Dairs lol

 

[Jaguar360]

In the past week or two, I've been finding fast-fall U-air to be really useful, especially on stages with platforms. It autocancels on the ground while leaving the fireball hitbox above you. This can catch people on platforms above or just above you in general, especially on an airdodge read or whiffed attack.

I really think that U-air was underrated in this thread. It really is a good followup from D-throw, even if DI makes it harder to land at high percents. D-tilt to U-air is also a good kill setup. It's nice for poking from below the ledge when trying to get back on stage as well. It may be slow, but the reward is great with 15-16% and great knockback and its not Mario F-air slow or anything. It's more like a 3.5/5 move in my book.

 

[KarmaCastle]

In the past week or two, I've been finding fast-fall U-air to be really useful, especially on stages with platforms. It autocancels on the ground while leaving the fireball hitbox above you. This can catch people on platforms above or just above you in general, especially on an airdodge read or whiffed attack.

I really think that U-air was underrated in this thread.

I find dthrow into uair almost impossible to use against an opponent that can DI to almost any degree and the hit stun on our throws is so short that most can air dodge by the time we uair :[

I do find it extremely handy for contesting the air space because the flame doesn't have it's own hitbox. I've gotten a TON of kills against dair DonKongs and Links. Perfectly timed it beats out warlock/falcon kick too!.. I'm actually uncertain of any down airs that it would lose to with perfect timing. Projectiles like Megaman perhaps?

It's such a good ability when opponents try to recover from high onto stage. Definitely another one of her abilities that's hit or miss though, since you might never use it in a round or be able to get three hits in a row before the opponent touches the stage again depending on launch trajectory and recovery styles.

 

[AncientCode42]

Would it be overpowered if they center Zelda's moveset on her lightning kicks like they did in Melee?
Sweetspot size 1.9->3.0
Landing lag 23/25->18
Fair IASA 53->37
Bair IASA 53->34
This is basically overpowered on any other character except Zelda. SH double bair would break shields and her strongest aerials can connect more reliably and will stuff approaches.
Zelda's lightning kicks need to be overpowered.
The fact that they only have 4 active frames and leaves you with three options: 23/25 frames of landing lag, 40/44 frames of aerial lag, or both kills Zelda's air game.

Honestly I don't think it would be overpowered. I've been asking for the same buff myself. If Zelda had her Melee LK's could use two of them at once from a single short hop, this would help her air game greatly. Plus having less lag on the rest of them. Or they could give her a better and bigger hitbox placement on them with decreasing the end lag. I agree with this.

 

[Rickster]

Melee Zelda wasn't intended to have her game be all about Kicks. Her competitive Meta just evolved that way because those were literally her only usable moves. Well, those and Dsmash.

 

[Darktundra]

Melee Zelda wasn't intended to have her game be all about Kicks. Her competitive Meta just evolved that way because those were literally her only usable moves. Well, those and Dsmash.

And here we with jab D-tilt and U-tilt being move that are the make up of the Neutral. Lagning kicks and a dash attack that last 4 frames and a frame 41 zone breaker can make or break Zelda's stock.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Melee Palutena wasn't intended to have her game be all about Kicks. Her competitive Meta just evolved that way because those were literally her only usable moves. Well, those and Dsmash.

fixed

 

[Meru.]

fixed

Omg now you mention it, Melee Zelda and Palutena are really indeed similar ._. Poor Palutena.

Would it be overpowered if they center Zelda's moveset on her lightning kicks like they did in Melee?

No but it's not the design the developers seem to have in mind for them, and the developers seem to put a lot of emphasis on a character's specific rol (in Zelda's case she's mostly supposed to stay on the ground).

 

[KarmaCastle]

Since Dthrow > Nair/Uair isn't guaranteed, is it better nowadays to just use uthrow or even back/forward? What with 6 damage on dthrow...

 

[Rickster]

What do you mean? Dthrow can almost always combo with either Nair or Uair. The only times it doesn't are against super floaties or if you have rage.

But yeah if you don't think you'll be able to follow-up any other throw works. I prefer Uthrow since it does good damage and can set up for things.

 

[KarmaCastle]

What do you mean? Dthrow can almost always combo with either Nair or Uair. The only times it doesn't are against super floaties or if you have rage.

But yeah if you don't think you'll be able to follow-up any other throw works. I prefer Uthrow since it does good damage and can set up for things.

At low percents most people habitually DI left/right out of throws. By the time I'm Nairing they've already air dodged :[. And at low percents you can't bait/stall it out because there's no time for another aerial.

I was against a Captain Falcon and he was able to jump almost immediately after my throw and I wept.

I played more FG matches while typing this to make sure it wasn't me derping or reaction times (note I did it in online play for realistic settings), specifically trying to dthrow nair. (Unrelated note, I 0-KO'd Marth with double nair > fair sweet spot chain :D.) Turns out going into a game trying to grab people is much harder than just playing. I swear, every single person was playing the no-grab game -.-.

I was able to 'true' combo dthrow into nair against falcon and ganon when they DI'd down and low. Next match they tended to DI up and away, making it less 'true' and more stringy. I wish we had true combos that didn't require technical master levels of prowess. Luigi and sheik throw into 3-4 strings of aerials. Meanwhile we have to JC OOS perfectly to punish with a FW or up smash.

On a side note, at perfect percents I've found down air into stage into up air is a true KO combo.

 

[Rickster]

Nair is pretty much guaranteed on Falcon at low % no matter how they DI. You're not following up fast enough. Heck, Dthrow>Bair can work on some characters if you're fast enough (two examples are Diddy and DeDeDe).

Why can't you bait an airdodge at low %? Just shorthop and wait for the dodge to end.

 

[r_greening1]

So I've been thinking for a little bit. I remember that most, if not all, of us agree that Zelda is a product of a flawed design. I also noticed that there tends to be talk of how to "fix" one of her moves through her frame data, but I don't think there's been any talk of just changing the move altogether. She's been stuck with almost the same moveset for the past 15-ish years, so why not introduce new ideas that could spice her up a little. I also didn't feel like making a new thread for this. :^)

F-tilt is one of her moves that bothers me the most. What is it supposed to do? Cover an approach, straight up punish, take a moveslot? It just makes no sense to me. It's disjointed, but it also drags her hurtbox with it; it's fairly slow; it's a lackluster punish tool; KO's around 150; and has pretty much no set-ups into or out of it.

What could it be changed to?

I was thinking maybe she can just arc her arm as it materializes her rapier from TP. It would be a pure disjoint and give some much needed range to her. The rapier would begin to fade after it passes the shoulder, but would disappear when it reached her other shoulder. Maybe the sweetspot could be directly perpendicular to her model. The hitboxes in front of her would send them outwards to shut down grounded approaches, and the one's above her shoulder (where it begins to fade) could knock them upwards (in tumble? :D) for a possible (standard) n-air/f-air follow up. As for KO potential, I'm not sure if it would be too good of a move if it killed at around 120 (sweetspotted).As far as frame data goes, I'm not sure what would make this an awesome yet balanced tool for her. Maybe give it the same start up as her present f-tilt, because this move would have actual utility for it's slower start up.

That's just me though. What are you gorls' thoughts on it?

Spoiler: Idea of what the animation could look like and how it would hit

Look at the blue projection

Or think something like Marcina's u-tilt.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

So I've been thinking for a little bit. I remember that most, if not all, of us agree that Zelda is a product of a flawed design. I also noticed that there tends to be talk of how to "fix" one of her moves through her frame data, but I don't think there's been any talk of just changing the move altogether. She's been stuck with almost the same moveset for the past 15-ish years, so why not introduce new ideas that could spice her up a little. I also didn't feel like making a new thread for this. :^)

F-tilt is one of her moves that bothers me the most. What is it supposed to do? Cover an approach, straight up punish, take a moveslot? It just makes no sense to me. It's disjointed, but it also drags her hurtbox with it; it's fairly slow; it's a lackluster punish tool; KO's around 150; and has pretty much no set-ups into or out of it.

What could it be changed to?

I was thinking maybe she can just arc her arm as it materializes her rapier from TP. It would be a pure disjoint and give some much needed range to her. The rapier would begin to fade after it passes the shoulder, but would disappear when it reached her other shoulder. Maybe the sweetspot could be directly perpendicular to her model. The hitboxes in front of her would send them outwards to shut down grounded approaches, and the one's above her shoulder (where it begins to fade) could knock them upwards (in tumble? :D) for a possible (standard) n-air/f-air follow up. As for KO potential, I'm not sure if it would be too good of a move if it killed at around 120 (sweetspotted).As far as frame data goes, I'm not sure what would make this an awesome yet balanced tool for her. Maybe give it the same start up as her present f-tilt, because this move would have actual utility for it's slower start up.

That's just me though. What are you gorls' thoughts on it?

Spoiler: Idea of what the animation could look like and how it would hit

Look at the blue projection

Or think something like Marcina's u-tilt.

Gorl. If Zelda used her rapier from Twilight Princess I would be sending all of my money straight to Sakurai

Really tho, cool idea. Sounds a lot better than her current ftilt in regards to utility and just fitting her. I never felt like her ftilt fit her cuz Zelda is supposed to be elegant but her ftilt is just like HI YA /random hand swipe

 

[ZombieBran]

Dthrow > Nair works a bit, it depends on character/percent of course. I find it fairly reliable but sometimes I just go for the Uthrow if I feel it won't connect anymore and attempt to bait/read an airdodge.

Ftilt would be okay if it had more range and/or was faster. Zelda has lots of HYAA moves (kicks, dash attack, Dsmash) and I like them precisely because it's a contrast to her usual demeanor. Din's needs an overhaul for Smash 5 or Sm4sh mods. It currently is a sad move that can't be fixed without some ridiculous buffs and I'd rather just have an overhaul.

Omg now you mention it, Melee Zelda and Palutena are really indeed similar ._. Poor Palutena.

I said this in the social but a random Palutena wasn't having it.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Come on Ftilt is OK.
I mean sure its slower then most tilts, but it does a nice 12% damage and can kill quite early sometimes.
It reaches farther then Fsmash, by at the cost extends her hurtbox, meaning its reach is better.
Sometimes it's better to use this for punish then Fsmash, I will admit I don't use the move too often, but I think it's good how it is.

 

[Rizen]

This thread has more posts than several character socials, lol.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

So I've been thinking for a little bit. I remember that most, if not all, of us agree that Zelda is a product of a flawed design. I also noticed that there tends to be talk of how to "fix" one of her moves through her frame data, but I don't think there's been any talk of just changing the move altogether. She's been stuck with almost the same moveset for the past 15-ish years, so why not introduce new ideas that could spice her up a little. I also didn't feel like making a new thread for this. :^)

F-tilt is one of her moves that bothers me the most. What is it supposed to do? Cover an approach, straight up punish, take a moveslot? It just makes no sense to me. It's disjointed, but it also drags her hurtbox with it; it's fairly slow; it's a lackluster punish tool; KO's around 150; and has pretty much no set-ups into or out of it.

What could it be changed to?

I was thinking maybe she can just arc her arm as it materializes her rapier from TP. It would be a pure disjoint and give some much needed range to her. The rapier would begin to fade after it passes the shoulder, but would disappear when it reached her other shoulder. Maybe the sweetspot could be directly perpendicular to her model. The hitboxes in front of her would send them outwards to shut down grounded approaches, and the one's above her shoulder (where it begins to fade) could knock them upwards (in tumble? :D) for a possible (standard) n-air/f-air follow up. As for KO potential, I'm not sure if it would be too good of a move if it killed at around 120 (sweetspotted).As far as frame data goes, I'm not sure what would make this an awesome yet balanced tool for her. Maybe give it the same start up as her present f-tilt, because this move would have actual utility for it's slower start up.

That's just me though. What are you gorls' thoughts on it?

Spoiler: Idea of what the animation could look like and how it would hit

Look at the blue projection

Or think something like Marcina's u-tilt.

We mostly talk about fixing one or more of her current in game moves because we hope there is a better chance to have it patch fixed rather than hope for Smash 5 that she gets any new moves when the only new one she has gotten in 15 years is to replace an old move lol. who wants to wait 7 more years to hope for fix?

this idea is cool, the only thing i don't care for is that its basically a better Utilt just done as Ftilt, which if it still killed would make her Utilt completely useless except in certain Elevator situations lol. or even if it didn't kill it would still make Utilt useless since it has a better disjoint and can be easy pivoted. if Zelda had brawl Utilt with this type of Ftilt i think it would match better since Zelda could AA/combo with Ftilt and still have Dtilt>BYE as a finisher. this type of move would help with her AA issues and make people warry of just lunging at her from the skies though.

i would like if she had her sword materialize for certain moves like Ftilt and make them have poor KB but decent damage and speed to use them for combos/pokes and her magical smashes for the KOs

 

[Rickster]

Just gonna drop this here...

New Zelda combo!

Jab>Fair guaranteed on Luigi from 0-40%. 28%, 4 hit combo. It's easiest to do around the 20% mark. No rage. Jab was spaced.

Spoiler

View attachment 69196
BAN•ZELDA

I don't care if this was already known let me have my moment

After doing some more testing on Jab>Fair, I came up with this stuff.

-Fast Falling light characters (ex Fox, ZSS) seem to be immune. The taller ones can get hit by a flub kick, but that's kinda useless. As a non-comboing setup, it kinda works, but you're better off going for a grab since these characters are easy to combo with Dthrow.

-Fast Falling heavy characters (ex Bowser, DDD) seem to be vulnerable at about 20%. Their fall speed and weight keep them from going high enough for a kick to reach at other %s. It's still a good setup though. Once again a grab would probably be better here.

-Floaty Lightweights (Rosalinda, Jiggs) are vulnerable from about 0-20%. The problem here is that they start to fly up too high. Luckily, if they're at 0% the follow-up is relatively easy. Jab's angle basically aims for you. Jab>Fair is optimal here since these characters are hard to combo with our throws.

-Floaty Heavyweights (Samus) are extremely vulnerable. It can combo all the way from 0-45%. Poor Samus. Aiming is easy.

-The Midweights (Mario, Luigi, many others probably) don't have it nearly as bad as Samus. Can start as early as 10% and go until about 35-40%. Still a good setup. Whether you should grab or not is up to you here.

I hope this was helpful! I just kinda generalized the weight classes since I didn't want to test every single character. The names in parenthesis are the characters tested (except for the one that says "many others"). I think this is a great setup/combo since it comes off one of our safest moves that also happens to stop some approaches and also has a transcendent disjoint.

To sum it up...
-Fast Fallers aren't worth it all all
-The Fatties are barely worth it
-Floaties are worth it at early % only
-Midweights are definitely worth it, just not at 0%
-Samus sucks

EDIT: I think I'm going to copy-paste this into the moveset thread so more can see it.

 

[MadCanard]

I want to ask y'all about the properties of Dair.

I was in training against Sheik the other day and I kept sweetspot Dairing her. I would reset her health to 0% between every hit. Every hit was a sweetspot. Sometimes she would be put into hitstun but stayed standing. Sometimes she would be put into hitstun and grounded in front of me.

Does anyone know why Dair has different results? Is it where the sweetspot Dair hits Sheik or something else?