Wisdom's Weapons - Zelda Moveset Analysis/Discussion [Currently casually discussing~]

[Rickster]

Ok I kinda forgot this thing existed, so I missed the dtilt discussion. I'm just going to give it a 4/5 compared to her other moves for reasons already stated. Compared to the rest of the cast, I would give it a 3.5/5 since it's basically a jab that can combo.

Ftilt...probably one of my least used moves. Its range is almost as good as Fsmash (or maybe greater? less? help.) and it has decentish knockback. It's a bit faster than Fsmash, so it's good if you need a spacer faster than Fsmash. But it's laggy, and not really safe. Plus it has that dead zone right in front of her. The hitbox doesn't last as long as Fsmash either. On top of all that, it has no combo potential (not counting that janky Jab>Ftilt).

I like pivoting this move a lot, though. I catch a lot of rolls with it. Pivoting is probably the best use for this move.

Can anyone confirm if an up angled Ftilt can stop aerial approaches, like Sheik's Fair? Or at least trade? That would be helpful in many MUs if you can time it right.

Overall, I say a 2/5 compared to her own moves. Same score compared to other attacks like it.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

up angled ftilt can stop Ike nair and can hit him before fair...it AAs ok. I haven't tested thus widely though

 

[BJN39]

Isn't this move longer horizontal range wise than f smash in this game?

It [Ftilt] has longer range than the multi-hits, (By like, a tiny tiny amount.) but the final hit of Fsmash has longer range.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

BEST TILT HYPE

I really like utilt. It might not be it's amazing "lol bye!" Brawl kill move ripbeautiful but it's still pretty useful

Pros/Uses:
- Can combo and rack up damage very well. Usually you can do about one utilt to a nair or usmash on floaties/lightweights, 2 utilts on middleweights, and 3 to 4 on heavyweights/fast fallers. On heavyweights I always try to do utilt x4 > nair > fair/bair which does ridiculous damage and usually connects due to their size. Also combos from uthrow on fast fallers at low %s and dtilt on anyone at low %s.
Edit: OH forgot to mention, at low percents on fast fallers you can also do utilt to grab
- Fast. Comes out frame 7 and starts combos which is pretty good.
- Not too much ending lag
- *Slightly* disjointed hitbox
- Can be a very fast, last resort kill option with rage. With 150% rage it kills Jiggly at about 115% and Bowser at about 150%. - Covers rolls since it hits on both sizes of Zelda
- One of her sassiest moves

Cons:
- Doesn't do a lot of damage, so if you can't combo off of it you're not getting much reward from it
- Even though it's disjointed, it just barely is
- Sometimes the move doesn't even combo like it should. It's hard to describe what I mean but if you go into training mode and try to do two utilts (front hit) consecutively at 0% on Diddy he just falls under the second one and can punish you. SAKURAIIIIII
- Horizontal range is somewhat lacking

3.5/5

 

[Gay Ginger]

My biggest problem with u-tilt is that it's a combo move but it's not really designed to be one.

Its long duration makes it punishable on whiff and shield. It'd be better if it didn't last as long, since it's not really a great defensive move/anti-air like it was in Brawl. It's in between a combo move and a protective sweep and doesn't excel in either place in Zelda's move-set.

The move is definitely useful and it can combo into itself or into n-air really well, but unfortunately - we all knew the but was coming - it's only useful at low to mid percents because soon they get knocked too high to follow up with another u-tilt or an n-air. Normally this wouldn't be a problem but she can already rack good damage up at similar percents with jab combos and combos off her d-throw. D-tilt > jab > DA/grab or d-tilt > f-tilt also work at these percents and are good options, so if you happen to rack up damage with any of these instead, u-tilt then has almost no purpose for the rest of that stock.

Although jab stops comboing at mid percents, it still is an effective defensive move to stop approaches, so it's always useful. U-tilt, however, does poor damage and isn't at least safe like jab is, and it's a poor anti-air move. I prefer to use f-tilt as an anti-air to be honest.

If Zelda still had Brawl upsmash, this move might fit her move-set better but instead it fits a combo role already filled by other good options and leaves her without a good anti-air move or a good vertical finisher.

Against some characters, like with jab, it doesn't combo very well. Characters with quick n-airs - Yoshi, for example - can n-air right after we hit him at low percents and hit us before we can use another u-tilt or before we can hit him with n-air. This means that against certain characters it's not really useful at all, since we'll only deal 7.2% while leaving ourselves open, and again, it has almost no defensive properties.

It's better than her f-tilt, though I like her f-tilt better personally.

3/5 compared to the cast: it's decent.

 

[Zylach]

I like utilt in this one. I actually find that its a very useful anti-air move and use it constantly against characters like Jiggles, Kirby, and Wario. Still, the small disjoint makes it useless against characters with highly disjointed aerial approach options like Pit[too], Ike, Shulk, etc. I would only ever use it on a character that's in the air unless that character was incredibly close to me though as its horizontal reach is mediocre and it hits very high so short characters need not worry about it. I do like low percent combos with it though and will sometimes find myself dthrowing an opponent every now and again, mistiming my jump on nair, jabbing, yet still being able to follow up with an utilt especially if I've conditioned my opponent to airdodge after dthrow which will lead to another utilt on heavies and a nair on lightweights.

What this moves seriously lacks is safety. Whiff this move and you will get punished, I guarantee it. It also trades more often than it should with aerial moves that it's designed to counter like Sheik's fair and any sex kick ever.

3.5/5 on my scale.

 

[BJN39]

Up Tilt - "The Wonderful World of Disney" (But very quickly)

My Score : 3.25/5 roughly between my scores for Jab and Dtilt, I like this move. :D

She looks mad during this move too. I wonder if she only sees this move's changes as a nerf. Is the notion of it being a nerf instead of a buff canon then??? Maybe Sakurai just told her beforehand she was getting nerfed all over, she got mad, then her face got stuuuuck. :^)

This move looks very pretty on WiiU, where the light element is very apparent, and it looks like a cute ball of light at her finger tips~

Fun fact: Contrary to popular belief, Utilt got NO hit-box size nerfs from Brawl. So unless the bone set structure of her arm was significantly changed, Utilt has the same range as Brawl.

I like Utilt's changes in this game. I just wish Usmash hadn't also had its KB nerfed. So then she could've had the weak faster one, and the slow strong one. Instead she's got the weak, somewhat fast one, and the snail-paced, somewhat alright KB one...lol

While technically it's not truly safe on shield, Zelda can sometimes get away with hitting a shield with it, mostly only when you hit with the back hit, though, which only has 19 frames of endlag. WHICH, is actually a couple frames safer than Dtilt due to doing more damage.

It's got great reach, (With its speed.) being able to tickle through low platforms like BF. While it's technically not a super fast move, it IS something she can sort of use in neutral. It's only 32 frames long, which is pretty short. It does bother me a little that many characters with fast aerials, or that are remotely light can easily escape any sort of Utilt followup. I like that it actually feels like it has unique merits in this game that wasn't there before, instead of the Brawl "spray and pray"

And hey, it got that 0.7% damage buff a while back which is just downright OP hype action.

 

[Gay Ginger]

Fun fact: Contrary to popular belief, Utilt got NO hit-box size nerfs from Brawl. So unless the bone set structure of her arm was significantly changed, Utilt has the same range as Brawl.

Personally I think its speed/duration makes it worse as an anti-air, not its range. It lasts a while but she moves her arm faster than she did in Brawl, and I find that this gives her less protection diagonally in front of her than in Brawl, when it covered that area (and the area around her, really) a bit longer.

U-tilt in Brawl also traded very favorably and was worth trading if you did, while it's not in Smash 4.

It's good to know about the range, but the range of the move is not really a problem I have with it.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I think utilt as an AA is ok considering its overhead coverage which is better at defending Zeldas head better than usmash due to being faster. That spot on Zeldas forehead has always been an open spot on her and I think the faster utilt helps alleviate some pressure on it at times.

I find utilt to be an all purpose tool with no purpose. It can combo/kill/AA but isn't the greatest at any if those things. BUT because it can do all these things I think we have better situations to land utilt because no one expects it to come out for any of those things unless they fight Zelda enough. 3/5

 

[Meru.]

Well I guess I must have missed the Utilt hype train because lately all this move has done is disappointing me. It has less range than I would like to have and gets beaten by pretty much anything so I can hardly use it as an anti-air or landing punish. It also has no reward and doesn't combo into anything.

2/5 because at least it's somewhat fast I guess? Oh and it stays out for a long time which is also nice.

 

[Macchiato]

since everyone covered everything ill just give a score

4/5

 

[BJN39]

...It has less range than I would like to have...

I guess then Brawl Utilt must've not had enough range then?

Contrary to popular belief, Utilt got NO hit-box size nerfs from Brawl. So unless the bone set structure of her arm was significantly changed, Utilt has the same range as Brawl.

I mean, if you were gonna say yes, then I'll go eat my words

 

[MOI-ARI]

Yeah i dont use this move as much as I should.yet right now was in training mode and was doing auto-pilot,muscle memory stuff. I use this MORE than i first initial thought xD

Contrary to what you Cats say, all this nonsense about Anti-Air and "SPEED" and "COMBO POTENTIAL" is all thrown out a window for me xD I noticed i use it alot when landing from nair or fair or in general l
People dont seem to expect it most of the time. But it sucks it won't combo into virtually anything and even in that case when it does , another move would be a better option.i feel.

Honestly its horizontal range should not be utilized like ever. You'd have to be locking lips with your opponent to hit them to do the whopping...7% okay not that close but still There's No great combos for it other than another Utilt which only works 0% - around 25%. Why do that when you have Grab>nair>Read FollowUp to start off? It combos into Uair at later Percents. But come on. Down Throw....

but in theory it sees its a better 'trader' but i try not to get hit y'know? Its a fast move but just a single move, and with characters that just move better than Zelda in more of all aspects, whats the point....

oh right, its better than Usmash.



4Zelda: 2.7/5

4EntireCast: 1/5

 

[evmaxy54]

If you hit with the back hit it can combo into itself (but why do this to yourself), Usmash (~0-25%), Nair, LK (ya rly ~20-30%) & Uair (~50%). All provided no Rage, Utilt is fresh & no DI/Vectoring. Utilt into Usmash is still a thing with the initial hitbox but the % range for it is really small somewhere between ~22-25% on fast fallers

Uthrow -> Utilt is a true combo for 18% on 5 characters (provided no Rage & both moves are fresh):

Uthrow -> Utilt (18%)

Sheik: 1-21%
Fox: 0-20%
Falcon: 11-24%
Greninja: 6-23%
Falco: 5-18%

 

[Meru.]

I guess then Brawl Utilt must've not had enough range then?
I mean, if you were gonna say yes, then I'll go eat my words

Reward makes a big difference. Even in Brawl it wouldn't always beat the opponent, but even if it traded it would be in Zelda's favor because Brawl Utilt had some serious knockback. Its knockback also refrained opponents from try to challenge her Utilt and forced respect. In Smash 4 Zelda trading her Utilt with her opponent will usually put her into a disadvantage and even if Zelda beats it, the reward is non-existent so it forces very little respect. A move like Zelda's Utilt either needs more range to cover her better or it needs to get better at what it does.

With that said I almost never used Utilt in Brawl because there was Usmash, and even with the reward it had it was way too laggy and had too little horizontal range.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

but dtilt>utilt/BYE was the best thing in brawl.

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

Utilt. Hmm. Let's see... Now used as a combo move more than anything (or a safer anti air than Usmash of course). Great at lower percentages for racking up damage. Often used after a Dtilt depending on how close the opponent is, and can be comboed into itself about another time before following up with an aerial. Why can't this still be a KO move since Usmash is garbage now? Oh well.

In situations for ledge guarding, it just basically functions as your anti air when recovering mid-high. Can be used to apply pressure and push them off the ledge again, but chances are they'll be at a percent too high to really follow up. You may have to predict their fall and act accordingly without being too reckless. Chances are you'll be running towards the center of the stage to catch them. If you're on a stage with a platform, pray it gets in their way and they land on it so you can casually Uair them into oblivion.

I'll rate it a 3.5 out of 5. It could be better, but could be worse, but is generally good and covers most the area that circles Zelda. Better option than Usmash in almost every situation (because Zelda is too slow to get right under anyone for it to even hit) because of its arch, and people can't casually fall out of it. The end lag isn't too bad, and neither is the startup. Overall a decent move.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

We're on dash attack now. This is Zelda's fastest hard punish, coming out at frame 6. This is my most used OOS option since it comes out frame 6 and can punish moves with long range since it pushes her forward. You can also combo into it from jab and dtilt at low to mid percents. It can kill too, so that's nice. It's a pretty decent move but there isn't much to it

3.5/5

 

[BJN39]

I mean, we like to point out that it's pretty laggy, but still, for a dash attack it's lag isn't too bad. It's on the quick end of laggy dash attacks...lol. Pls don't think I mean it's not unsafe. It isn't, buT... It could be a lot worse *coughcoughPalutenacoughcough*

It's also a fast hitter, with good range while not being screwed by being 2 non-consistent hits (petch) it also has great potential damage; it can do as much as 12%, while most dash attacks that can do that much generally have larger downsides than Zelda's. Otherwise it does 9/6% which is good/decent.

It CAN KO. Simply put. Though, it still isn't a very good KO move. (It KOs a bit earlier than the average Dash Attack.) But I wanted to point that out.

It just cri's when it's blocked. It's pretty alright for a dash attack, though, and somewhat useable as far as Zelda's moveset goes imo. I'll give it a 3.5/5. :D

 

[AncientCode42]

Zelda's F-Tilt is one where I agree its properties are garbage. Just use F-Smash instead. Now that F-Smash has better connecting after hitting (especially when angled slightly upwards) just use F-Smash over F-Tilt. F-Tilt is just a worse F-Smash anyways. I think its properties need to be changed all together.

I love Zelda's U-Tilt Idk if people would agree with this. But it's a good anti-air move and really good for punishing rolls and low percentage combos of what little Zelda has. I think with a bit of tweaking though this move could have something in terms of a potential combo chain. I did like it as a KO option in Brawl, but I kind of like Zelda having some degree of a potential combo. It's a lot faster than Brawl's.

As for Dash Attack I think it's one of Zelda's better moves, it works decently for kills, great for punishing rolls and has better priority than before. But it is highly punishable. I'd give it 4/5. But this is my experience with it.

 

[Zylach]

Dash attack is actually one of my go-to moves for Zelda as it is actually one of her few approach options, is a very quick punish tool, and does good damage on top of being a potential kill option if the match drags on. It's got good range and Zelda can push herself behind a shielding opponent if timed right though that rarely helps any more than just hitting shield and being immediately shield grabbed. On that point, the fact that this move is very punishable is why I wouldn't give it a perfect score. Plus, it's beat out by several other dash attacks or trades with several other dash attacks (It will win these trades though) such as Ness' dash, Villager's dash, etc.

3.5/5 for me too.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Dash Attack is great at punishing because it moves Zelda and comes out faster than dash grab, it can actually get Zelda under some aerials and being able to kill on sweetspot is a bonus. sadly Dash A leaves us open on shield to be punished. 3/5

 

[evmaxy54]

It's decent

Use it to punish

Don't use it for approach

KK

 

[Lorde]

Dash attack is a good tool for Zelda. It's quick, decently powerful, and isn't too laggy. All in all, it fills a lot of roles that Zelda needs. I give it a 3/5.

And tysm SFLR for saving my sanity by doing dash attack now. If we do dsmash>fsmash>usmash next, that'd be great. I think we should do down>forward>back (where applicable)>up for all move groups that have directional variants (specials, aerials, smashes).

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Dash attack is a good tool for Zelda. It's quick, decently powerful, and isn't too laggy. All in all, it fills a lot of roles that Zelda needs. I give it a 3/5.

And tysm SFLR for saving my sanity by doing dash attack now. If we do dsmash>fsmash>usmash next, that'd be great. I think we should do down>forward>back (where applicable)>up for all move groups that have directional variants (specials, aerials, smashes).

Would you be ok with forward > back > up > down? Bc that's how most other sites list the order

 

[Lorde]

Would you be ok with forward > back > up > down? Bc that's how most other places sites list the order

Honestly, the order doesn't matter that much to me. If that's the standard way, then, by all means, do it. I just liked down>forward>back>up because it goes from bottom to top and my brain likes that lol.

 

[Macchiato]

4/5 dash attack

YAAAAY

 

[Gay Ginger]

Most of you have already covered the ups and downs of the move.

I actually think Zelda's dash attack is one of the best dash attacks in the game. Unfortunately, Zelda's poor dash speed reduces some of the potential of the move and limits it to somewhat short range punishes because she often can't reach opponents fast enough. If her mobility was better, the move would be more useful. But as it stands, it's pretty solid.

3.5/5 seems good to me.

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

Zelda's Dash Attack, one of the best ones there is (not on shield). It does exactly what you need it to do when you can get it to hit. It does a decent amount of damage and has good knockback. What would make this move great is if Zelda was faster and could get ANYWHERE in time to use this move with more success.

With ledge guarding, this move can hit people before getting to the ledge if they're recovering horizontally, or slightly above the stage. If they're suffering end lag after landing for whatever reason after landing on the stage, you can easily knock them back off for a possible KO. If they're safe from end lag, they'll probably throw out a shield, so be careful. Mix this up with a grab in the same situation and you should be alright. If you don't hit with the sweetspot, you can probably set them up to get KO'd or knocked away again easily.

I'll rate it a 4/5. It's one of Zelda's better moves with great priority and decent range. It's downside is that Zelda isn't too quick and can't always get to the enemy in time and gets punished by a shield instead. If you compare it to Peach's, which is similar, I'd take Zelda's any day.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

On fsmash now~

 

[PUK]

I call it the sassmehameha.
4/5 it's a very good smash, pretty quick, pretty safe, pretty powerful, it lingers, it's disjoint, it's transcendant.

 

[Rizen]

Zelda's Fsmash seems decent but not great.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Zelda
it hits frame 16, final hit on 24 and FAF 50. For an Fsmash it might be slightly sub-par but it fills its purpose.
3/5 for Zelda, 2/5 for the cast.

 

[Macchiato]

Any gorl wanna play?

 

[PUK]

Zelda's Fsmash seems decent but not great.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Zelda
it hits frame 16, final hit on 24 and FAF 50. For an Fsmash it might be slightly sub-par but it fills its purpose.
3/5 for Zelda, 2/5 for the cast.

ok look every single Fsmash on this website, and correct your 2/5 pls. Because it's silly

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Zelda's fsmash is also good at catching standard ledge getups since it lasts forever

 

[Rizen]

ok look every single Fsmash on this website, and correct your 2/5 pls. Because it's silly

Frame 16 is not a fast Fsmash. It has disjoint but not as much as many Fsmashes, opponents can fall out of the multi-hits, it has good power but not great. It's not safe on shields. Relative to all the moves in SSB4 it gets a 2/5.

 

[Gay Ginger]

I think her fsmash is a decent move.

It comes out on frame 16, which while not fast is not slow either. Its range is okay. I say okay because the range of the multi-hits could be better, and unfortunately it can be beaten out by moves that should not be disjointed. And if it trades, Zelda will deal only 1%. The range of the final hit is really good, but it comes out on frame 24, so it's too slow for reliable spacing but not impossible. Its transcendent priority means that it can be used to beat other moves, provided they don't have a larger disjoint. It can stop a lot of mis-spaced approaches.

Like all most of Zelda's moves, it has punishable end lag. It's super punishable on whiff, and it's not safe on shield either.

It has decent KO power, but not amazing. However like @ S.F.L.R_9 said, its long duration makes it great for catching ledge get-ups, and it's probably one of the best smash attacks for that.

Luckily all hits connect most of the time now, though occasionally someone will bounce out of it.

My biggest problem with this move is that it leaves her more open than other smash attacks that will KO her just as early if not earlier than Zelda can KO her opponent due to her relative light weight. If the move had its Brawl end lag, it would be really good imo.

edit: It's also good at catching spot dodges and it shield stabs really well.

3/5 compared to the cast.

 

[evmaxy54]

P gud move after the patch.

There really isn't much to say about this move. Pivot FSmashes are p cool. It can combo from Dtilt at the ledge but there are much better options out there (like Fair, Ftilt & Dsmash).

Rage really helps this move though at KO %

Theorycraft: It might be safe of shield against Luigi if spaced (will need to lab this mind)

 

[BJN39]

Zelda's Fsmash is a pretty decent Fsmash, even though it was hurt by the 10 frame duration increase.

Hits around in the middle in terms of Fsmash speed. Obvs it's a little slower than most moves. Its range is pretty good, though, her extended arms sometimes make it feel kind of worse ranged. Terrible if it trades, doing only 1% and no real hit-stun. Sometimes you can troll people though if you don't connect all of the hits and they fly behind you and score a grab or dash attack, lol. Very rare though so don't rely on it.

Now with improved loop hits I actually believe this iteration of Fsmash is better than Brawl's. Something not a lot of people know is that Fsmash got a small KB INCREASE from Brawl, which is kind of hilarious, but great nonetheless. Fsmash also does alright damage, at least for its overall speed. Though not actually 100% safe on block Zelda can sometimes get away with hitting a shield with it when well-spaced. It has less frames of vulnerable end lag than Ftilt and Dsmash. (And ofc Usmash, but lel.)

It's power and improved consistency make it pretty neat against the number of lightweight high tiers, or high tiers that have received reduced KO pwer on moves. It's really one of Zelda's only reliable KO moves, which sadly says a lot about her lacking reliable KO moves in some ways.

Another neat thing is that Zelda crouches to match the hit-box height. I'm not sure how useful that really is, but it seems nice. Probably would be more useful if Fsmash clanked, I daresay. IDK I think I'm rambling now lol.

Fsmash's new visual is pree cute too. I. LOVE. How the lighting effect actually changes from blue to pink with the different colored blasts <3

I'll rate it 4/5

 

[KuroganeHammer]

3/5, it's one of Zelda's more decent moves but characters STILL fall out of it sometimes. Ugh.