Wisdom's Weapons - Zelda Moveset Analysis/Discussion [Currently casually discussing~]

[Rizen]

Since Jab combos it is a better move than I thought. 3/5 seems right.
Maybe we should discuss moves for 3 days? The Zelda boards have enough activity that plenty of discussion happens in that amount of time.

 

[Macchiato]

The sad thing is that even if we were rating compared to Zelda's moveset, usmash would still be a disaster :^)

I personally love usmash. B-But thats just me.

Anyways I rate Jab a 4/5

 

[AncientCode42]

I personally love usmash. B-But thats just me.

Anyways I rate Jab a 4/5

Compared to Zelda's Brawl U-Smash, not really. In Brawl Zelda's U-Smash was argubly her best Smash. It had range, hit all around her and was nearly impossible to SDI. In Smash 4 they took away its utility and made it less usable. I wouldn't say it's as bad as Melee's U-Smash which was laughably awful, but still.

Still preferences are preferences I suppose. Though since the newest patch buffed her F-Smash and fixed its problems I'd say F-Smash is her best Smash.

 

[evmaxy54]

All Usmash is useful now is that it's a decent low % combo finisher but this is for a later time

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Well I do know a lot of Sheik's like to space their F-airs out so it is safe on shield. Do you think maybe that the disjoint can out-range Sheik in that situation? I still don't think it'll be THAT practical because of the startup, but every bit helps.

it can I believe but again its dependant on your footsies game and I think its a little too risky unless your RLBing.

also on the Zelda smashes debate Fsmash took 14 years to fix, that's not a buff its developer neglect finally acknowledged. I believe it does make it her best smash now but that's a discussion for when we get to fsmash.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

K gorls, we've moved onto our most requested move, dtilt. Have fun, make sure to rate, and say what move you want to do next.
Also can we talk about how angry Zelda looks doing dtilt? She's probably angry because it doesn't lock anymore :^)

 

[Macchiato]

5/5

Combo starter at all percents. Kill set ups. Stops approaches. Pretty safe too. Also great at gimpinf and edgeguarding. Her best move hands down.

 

[Rizen]

Dtilt hits frames 5-11, FAF 25. Damage 4.5%. Dtilt is a really good move. 4.5/5.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

5/5

Combo starter at all percents. Kill set ups. Stops approaches. Pretty safe too. Also great at gimpinf and edgeguarding. Her best move hands down.

What move do you want to do next? Only like three people said what move they wanted to do this time so I want to get an answer from as many as I can.

 

[Macchiato]

What move do you want to do next?

Usmash. I know lots of things about it.

 

[Zylach]

Dtilt is one of Zelda's best moves. It's her fastest, one of her few combo starters, decent range, hits below the ledge so it can interrupt recoveries, makes Zelda's hurtbox smaller, and is very difficult to punish. It's basically Zelda's only real tool in close quarters besides Nayru's Love with its frame 5 intangibility. It's my most used move of hers I'm sure (It's actually a problem when I switch to Samus because I instinctively want to use dtilt but Samus' doesn't act the same way and it gets me punished a lot).

4/5 Best quick attack Zelda has. It's the only thing that can challenge characters with quick jabs and such. It's a shame it can be punished though.

I vote we go through the rest of the tilts before moving on to smashes or aerials etc. so on to ftilt perhaps?

 

[evmaxy54]

On ledge-grabbing/about to grab the ledge opponents, Dtilt combos into Ftilt, Fair, Dsmash & Fsmash at mid-high %s if they don't DI the Dtilt or tech the stage (I haven't checked all characters but I'm assuming atm that it works on everyone).

Great for ****ing on characters with non-active hitboxes on their recoveries

Onstage, it's the closest we have to a Jab so that's p cool too

3.5/5

 

[MOI-ARI]

Ahh Dtilt huh.

Dtilt's a hell of a drug.

----


5/5 for reliability and being good.

My personal favorite use of this move is at approx. 60%, Dtilt> JumpCancled Farores Elevator. Its possible to 'true combo'. It occasionally kills light characters and non-DI'ers(or 'vectorers'? I dont know :I) But a modest combo even if it doesn't KO.

 

[AncientCode42]

Zelda's D-Tilt is one of her est moves hands down. It's one of her few effective moves and would argue her quickest. It does a lot of good things in her favor pretty much as explained above.

 

[ZombieBran]

4/5

It's useful nearly all the time, actually safe, and a good "jab". I don't have a lot to say about this move, since it's good and so not as fun to talk about.

I agree we should do F-tilt next.

 

[Jaguar360]

This is a solid move. One of Zelda's quicker moves on the ground, evades higher attacks, pretty safe and leads into possible followups at most or all percents. At times I wish it had better range, but the range isn't too bad at all.

At very low percents, D-tilt can lead into D-tilt > D-smash. At somewhat low percents, it can be followed up but an F-tilt, D-smash, or an F-smash (the latter can be avoided, but is difficult to avoid and usually hits). At mid-high percents, going for a F-air is the best option, but you can try to bait for an U-air as well. Farore's Wind is also a possible followup, but risky.

This is probably one of Zelda's more useful utility moves and is one of the few combo starters that she has alongside U-tilt, D-throw and Jab to an extent. 4/5

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i'm surprised no one has mentioned that Dtilt is Zelda's best clank box. it clanks with alot of weak projectiles and moves in general very easily and its hilarious to clank with swords. i'm gonna give it a 3.5 only because as Zelda's "jab" its only downside is you can't drop shield>Dtilt you have to drop>duck+dtilt

i'm feeling Ftilt as the next move when we move from Dtilt.

 

[evmaxy54]

i'm surprised no one has mentioned that Dtilt is Zelda's best clank box. it clanks with alot of weak projectiles and moves in general very easily and its hilarious to clank with swords. i'm gonna give it a 3.5 only because as Zelda's "jab" its only downside is you can't drop shield>Dtilt you have to drop>duck+dtilt

i'm feeling Ftilt as the next move when we move from Dtilt.

In the case we get to save the best tilt for last! :D

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Ahh Dtilt huh.

Dtilt's a hell of a drug.

----


5/5 for reliability and being good.

My personal favorite use of this move is at approx. 60%, Dtilt> JumpCancled Farores Elevator.Irs a true combo. It occasionally kills light characters and non-DI'ers(or 'vectorers'? I dont know :I) But a modest combo even if it doesn't KO.

When Zelda has about 80% rage it does kill at that percent! Shoutout to Sakurai for the fraudulently early and salt inducing kills :^) I killed someone with a dtilt > JC FW yesterday at 20% LOL

You all have covered pretty much everything that I want to say, but I think it's important for us to know that dtilt is our fastest move and a kill setup. With no rage dtilt uair kills at like 100% on Mario and dtilt fair kills at like 65-70% near the ledge.

5/5, it's an amazing move and easily Zelda's best one

 

[Lorde]

I randomly stopped getting notifications for this thread?? SWF does this strangely often and I don't like it.

All you gorls basically covered everything, so I don't have much to add. I think dtilt>jab is a thing that can happen at lower percents, but I'm pretty sure it's never guaranteed.

4.5/5 this is probably Zelda's best move.

As for the order of moves, I think we should go like this: jab, dtilt, ftilt, utilt, dsmash, fsmash, usmash, dash attack (should have been second but it's too late now), nair, dair, fair, bair, uair, grabs/throws, nayru's, phantom, din's, farore's.
I think that's all of her moves.

 

[Macchiato]

As for the order of moves, I think we should go like this: jab, dtilt, ftilt, utilt, dsmash, fsmash, usmash, dash attack (should have been second but it's too late now), nair, dair, fair, bair, uair, grabs/throws.
I think that's all of her moves.

You ummm kinda umm forgot all her ummm specials

 

[Lorde]

You ummm kinda umm forgot all her ummm specials

I edited them right before you replied. I'm always 3 steps ahead.

 

[Rizen]

I edited them right before you replied. I'm always 3 steps ahead.

You forgot her custom specials and get up attacks.

 

[Lorde]

You forgot her custom specials and get up attacks.

We can discuss custom specials and default specials at the same time.

Get up attacks are irrelevant and there is no use in analyzing them.

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

Voting on down tilt, I find it a great move alongside utilt, jab, and Naryu's Love to shut out most any approach, with proper timing. Still, compared to may character's down tilts with similar purposes, it has subpar frame data and damage output. 4.5/5 for synergy with her moveset.

 

[evmaxy54]

Voting on down tilt, I find it a great move alongside utilt, jab, and Naryu's Love to shut out most any approach, with proper timing. Still, compared to may character's down tilts with similar purposes, it has subpar frame data and damage output. 4.5/5 for synergy with her moveset.

A frame 5 Dtilt that stays out for 7 frames & has 13 frames endlag is by no means subpar frame data though...

 

[BJN39]

A frame 5 Dtilt that stays out for 7 frames & has 13 frames endlag is by no means subpar frame data though...

It should be noted 70% or so of the time though, you'll be hitting on frame 5-6, which actually means it has around 18-19 frames of endlag, which ACTUALLY makes it completely unsafe on shield, (To iterate, if it is badly spaced opponents can shield grab it. Otherwise it has to be a faster OoS option.) and in some cases lighter characters can even attack and interrupt you. By no means is this bad frame data though, it's definitely one of her best moves in terms of frame data.

Hhnng, I may make an 'essay' like I did with jab, but I'm feeling too lazy. -_- in case I don't get to it, I'll get my score out early at 4/5.

 

[evmaxy54]

It should be noted 70% or so of the time though, you'll be hitting on frame 5-6, which actually means it has around 18-19 frames of endlag, which ACTUALLY makes it completely unsafe on shield, (To iterate, if it is badly spaced opponents can shield grab it. Otherwise it has to be a faster OoS option.) and in some cases lighter characters can even attack and interrupt you. By no means is this bad frame data though, it's definitely one of her best moves in terms of frame data.

Hhnng, I may make an 'essay' like I did with jab, but I'm feeling too lazy. -_- in case I don't get to it, I'll get my score out early at 4/5.

That's fair enough actually my b

Oh yea, I've decided to make a spreadsheet of when Dtilt at the ledge into Dsmash is a true combo & I've done from Mario to Diddy so far (& I'll try to finish all the other stuff when I get round to it).

 

[Macchiato]

Dtilt to JC Usmash works around 50% for a free 20%.

 

[BJN39]

Dtilt to JC Usmash works around 50% for a free 20%.

Actually, that combo only does 19.9%. No, seriously.

Of course, unless it was the very first use of either move in a said match.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Dtilt is ok when it hits, but it has a few flaws. Here's a few things of note:

• cancels projectiles up to 14%
• fast frame 5 move
• unsafe on shield; unlike jab, it hits VERY fast and still has quite a bit of ending lag
• pops opponents up a bit
• very low damage and no longer a reliable damage rack tool
• hits below the ledge
• mediocre range

I can't really give it more than a 3/5. I can think of a whole bunch of other dtilts I would prefer.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I think we should compile a list of the characters dtilt can hit safely while they're recovering to the ledge. The ones I know of are (Jump Glide and maybe Rocket Jump) and . You can also hit (Warp) and if you catch their few frames of vulnerability. Does anyone know any others or have more info about dtilt and the ledge?

 

[Macchiato]

I think we should compile a list of the characters dtilt can hit safely while they're recovering to the ledge. The ones I know of are (Jump Glide and maybe Rocket Jump) and . You can also hit (Warp) and if you catch their few frames of vulnerability. Does anyone know any others or have more info about dtilt and the ledge?

 

[Rizen]

I based my score on Zelda's moves, not comparing to other characters' moves.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Zelda doesn't get hit by or ? Idk I think she would since their hitboxes go slightly above the ledge and dtilt isn't disjointed

 

[Macchiato]

Zelda doesn't get hit by or ? Idk I think she would since their hitboxes go slightly above the ledge and dtilt isn't disjointed

I think Zelda's outpriotizes Little Mac, T/L(inks), Ness. Shulk, I'm p sure that dtilt his before airslash would. WiiFit only has hitboxes on the Side of her Hoops. Idk about wario though.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I think Zelda's outpriotizes Little Mac, T/L(inks), Ness. Shulk, I'm p sure that dtilt his before airslash would. WiiFit only has hitboxes on the Side of her Hoops. Idk about wario though.

Well for Little Mac we should just go for dsmash instead of dtilt because without a jump it gimps him at 0% lol. That's a discussion for another time tho. I'll try and test out Link/Tink tonight by looking for them in their natural habitat: Roll Glory :^)

 

[Meru.]

Yeah Dtilt is actually not as safe as it looks, I get punished for it a lot. Pretty sure her leg is also a hurbox which can be shieldgrabbed (and the range is that big in the first place; shieldgrabbing it should be that hard).

None the less it's still her one of her better moves since it's fast and has little lag which means it's not terrible unsafe on whiff, and it should be safer if you hit them on shield while behind them (so they cant shield grab you).

I still feel there's something missing though... such as follow-ups. I feel like this thing has like no reward. At low percents it's ok but especially at higher percents where it pops them up and that's it. Where's the hitstun on this thing? I also don't like the fact that in a game where characters are airborne very often one of her most reliable moves hits low.

3/5 for a Zelda move, 2/5 in general (although I feel this move would be much better on characters with a good air game).

I missed the Jab discussion so I'm just going to write something short in spoiler tags here!

Spoiler

So jab is... kinda ok. The range is ok and it has very little ending lag. I mainly use it as a spacing move similarly to how you would use an Fsmash, except jab is actually safe. It also worls pretty well for baiting opponents thinking your stuck in lag. Especially beginners will try to dash attack you, which you can shield and upB. However, jab comes with a fair share of weaknesses. It's not all scary. Sometimes you can combo into grab or dash attack but that's only at low percents. At high percents she has no follow-ups and her dash is too slow to get anything out of. Even at low percents you have to hit them with the right hitbox: sometimes my opponents get hit for only 1% percent and they won't be sent flying at all. Second, for a move that doesn't have much of a reward it comes out very late. This move could come out a few frames faster.

2.5/5 for a Zelda move, 1.5/5 for this move in general (nobody would want this jab... seriously).

 

[Rizen]

I think Link's spin attack loses if it's directly under but wins from the side because how the hitbubbles are positioned. I'm not sure though.

 

[Zylach]

I think we should specify now whether we ought to be comparing to Zelda's other moves or the moves of the entire cast since people still seem to be doing both and giving scores based on two different premises which skews the scores. Obviously, if we compare to the rest of the cast, all of us will be voting no higher than 3/5 I suspect but in relation to Zelda's other moves, we can see a better range. For example, usmash 1/5 where dtilt can be 5/5 as opposed to usmash being 1/5 and dtilt being 3/5 when comparing to the rest of the cast and everything else gets lumped in at 1 and 2. giving no real value to the rating system since it basically becomes bad, ok, and good rather than being more specific and thorough.