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WIP Internal Tier List for Balancing Purposes [LOW RESULTS OUT]

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
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Feb 7, 2007
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The results for the top 10 are here:
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/883519/Top 10 v2.txt

And after some debate in the WBR chat, we've made a preliminary top 11:

MK
Marth
Fox
Squirtle
Luigi
Kirby
Pikachu
Wario = Snake
Diddy = Olimar


The results for the bottom are in:

Bowser (15)
Ganondorf (12)
King DDD (12)
Yoshi (12)
Ike (11)
Ness (11)
Link (9)
Combosaurus-Rex / Ivy (9)
Pitt (8)
Wolf (7)
C. Falcon (7)
Charizard (5)
Pokemans Trainer (6)


Ice Climbers (3)
Lucas (3)
Mario (2)
Jiggz (2)
Sonic (2)
Zelda (2)

DK (1)
GW (1)

As usual, keep in mind that these numbers are just a measurement of frequency of voting, not how bad someone is. I.E. even though C. Falcon got fewer votes than DDD or Yoshi he might need more help, etc.
 

CT Chia

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i already tried to do a tier list project for the same purpose. it fell through, very few ppl liked it
 

CT Chia

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i could just resurrect the thread for it, i already had the system implemented and everything typed up
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
can we use the way the SBR made the last tierlist? first 3 supertier (low, mid and high) and then cut those in 2. we can then discuss each of these 6 groups.

(going by 10 chars each time would give us 4 groups, also an option. then we just use 2 supertiers)
 

Shell

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I just figured it'd be one way to get the overall order down. Once we have an order, we don't need to divide it by 10s, we can break it up any way we want. In fact, breaking it up into tiers doesn't really matter, the only thing that matters is where we consider the lines for "Needs a slight nerf," "Possibly a tweak/buff" etc. to be.

@PK & Chibo, I'm open to other methods, but I've already got 7 / 16ish (?) of the votes for the first part and I don't think it'll make too big of a difference doing it one way or another.
 

GHNeko

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Voted. :V


ALso, we have to realize, just because someone is top 10, 5, 3, etc, does that mean they warrant a nerf, or are they just properly balanced in addition to just having good traits?
 

Shell

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We'll discuss that when we're done, I suppose. I mean, there's always going to be a top few and a bottom few, so at a certain point you just gotta leave things as they are. I don't think we're quite there yet, but we'll talk about it.

9 / 16 (?) votes in. If we're drastically lacking in votes tonight I'll extend it another day.
 

goodoldganon

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I forgot about ROB in my original voting but here is my voting

MK
Marth
Fox
Squirtle
Luigi
Kirby
Pikachu
Snake
Wario
ROB
Olimar

Either way, as I was saying in IRC. I think we have done a bang up job. Everyone after Pikachu can all be heavily debated and cases for Lucario, Sheik, Peach, and ZSS can all be made. Game and Watch is probably really close too. I don't know. Do we let those 7 stick out as the top tier or adjust them down? All things to consider.

On an aside, frankly I don't think we care or should care about 11-28. Most of those characters are all balanced and could maybe use 1-2 more tweaks. I think we should Discuss, 29-39 next. Basically the 10 worst.

We have a ton of spill over into the next 10 plus all new guys. Mario, DK, Toon Link, Samus, Pit, Falco, C. Falcon and Sonic could all make a strong run. Add Lucario, Sheik, Peach, Game and Watch, and ZSS plus ROB/Olimar/Diddy depending if ROB gets into top 10. My point is it's just gonna get out of hand in my opinion. It sounds to me like we are making a tier list which is a noble endeavor but we don't have the tourney data and enough active people back here to do that. My reasoning for doing the 10 worst next.
 

Revven

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Going off of the list above, mine would go like this:

MK
Marth
Fox
Squirtle
Luigi
Kirby
Pikachu
Wario
ROB
Snake
Diddy Kong

I put Wario above Snake because of Wario's inherent beginning stock advantage every stock. Every stock he can get 49% easily on Snake from his legendary CG. Also, Wario can pressure Snake better than Snake can pressure Wario. It's much harder for Snake to actually get something started where as due to Snake's weight, Wario can get something started easily from a Dair or a Uair and easily rack up 20% at most.

Diddy Kong over Olimar because of better chance of recovery, bananas, and his dash attack. His dash attack is ridiculously good, better than before, he can almost chain it twice in a row now. His recovery is better than Olimar's in that he has Side B, Diddys shouldn't rely on Up B TOO often unless they have to. Olimar, on the other hand, HAS to rely on Up B. He can't waste a moment on doing something else unless it is Down B. Although he has guaranteed grab combos, it is almost in the same vein as Diddy Kong having guaranteed bananas combos on everybody. Except Diddy Kong has a harder time to kill people, where as Olimar kills no problem. So it is a toss-up, but, I mostly would pick Diddy Kong. Maybe because I'm biased? I don't know.

BTW, anyone surprised by how diverse our Top 10 is compared to Brawl's? It feels so good! :)

Edit: I moved Snake to second last because I just realized that ROB will have a much easier time against Snake than vice versa. Plus, ROB can gimp Snake REALLY bad now so, this placement is justified. I was going to move him to last but then I realize Diddy Kong can't kill Snake until like 160%-165% where as Snake can kill Diddy in like the 120%-130% range.
 

leafgreen386

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SMK... first off, no one cares about order right now, since this is only to get a rough estimation here. Second off... your reasoning is completely and utterly flawed. A character's tier placement does not relate directly to the characters above or below them. It has to do with their general matchups and how well they are expected to do in a tournament situation. The only single matchups that really matter are those against the top tiers, since those are the characters to beat in a tourney situation. If you have two characters vying for the 9th spot, how well they do against each other is pretty well irrelevant.

Also... frick. I forgot about weegee in my voting. >_>
 

CT Chia

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The way the SBR does it isnt the way this should be done at all. Well, the latest one that is. It's a complex method that takes over a month of voting to do and is heavily dependant on the order of characters which we can't do at this point in B+.

We should get this done fast, aka, try to get it done in one or two rounds of voting. This process is an interesting and good idea, but leaves out the big picture, or things like if you believe their are 11 top players in the game, etc.

I think the process I had started in my other thread worked quite nicely.
discussion - http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225269
voting - http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225373
 

goodoldganon

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We need more people in the back room before we can make a legit tier list. Besides, there are still some changes left to make. (Adding hitstun to Luigi, lowering it on Falcon) It seems we all agree on the top 10-12. Olimar, ROB, and Diddy all sound up for debate but that's for another time. I still think we should do worst 10 next, but start a new vote on Thursday IMO.
 

JCaesar

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I dunno about you, but my region has both a good Falco and a good ZSS...

Edit: Ohhh :X Probably just a mixup.
 

Team Giza

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MK
Marth
Fox
Luigi
Kirby
Pikachu
Wario
Jigglypuff
Squirtle
ROB

I notice a lot of people putting Snake up in here. Even though I don't think he makes it to this level. There are a lot of equalizing factors for Snake, but I think overall he doesn't hold up as well as he did. Mainly because of how hitstun has hurt his ability to recover as easy, including making his c4 recovery even less effective. Overall, I think hitstun and shieldstun have hurt Snake more than they helped. I don't believe he is among the ranks of the other characters who have been meantioned in this topic.
 

Shell

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GoG mentioned he'd like to jump to a bottom 10 or so and get started making any adjustments on them that are necessary.

Is this what we want to do? If so I can have a poll open soon. Alternatively we could just go through and vote on everyone like Chibo was saying.

Or we can just keep going down 10 at a time, which seems to be working well enough.
 

Alopex

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We should at least wait until this weekend, because I'll have some tourney results then. Considering how Brawl+ tourneys are still kinda sparse, it wouldn't be a bad idea to take what results we can get and look over them before we jump into other methods of deciding the tiers.
 

storm92

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GoG mentioned he'd like to jump to a bottom 10 or so and get started making any adjustments on them that are necessary.

Is this what we want to do? If so I can have a poll open soon. Alternatively we could just go through and vote on everyone like Chibo was saying.

Or we can just keep going down 10 at a time, which seems to be working well enough.
I'd say we work from the bottom 10 and then up, as its been decided we want to do more buffing to the lower characters than nerfing to the top ones, correct?
 

The Cape

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In no order:

My bottom ten:
DDD
Ivysaur
Bowser
Wolf
Link
Ness
Samus
Lucas
Pit
Mario

Reasons:
DDD: Big, fat, slow, no real solid combos or kill setups
Suggestions: Better minion tosses (no pickup, more damage, better angles, less winddown, more gordos and doos); Make uair connect better (like dair); make D throw more useful

Ivysaur: Bad move pool problems
Suggestions: I think she is perfect right now except for her extremely crappy recovery. If we can give her lower grav after upB, that may be a good solution (more DI). Also, dair spike hit 10% larger couldnt hurt.

Bowser: Big, fat, slow, no real solid combos or kill setups
Suggestions: Give him more base power on all his moves with a wee bit less growth, and he should do more damage overall. This makes him more of a super tank as he can keep people off him better. Make the moves meatier too (longer duration hitboxes) without increasing the total time that the move is out. Also, Bowser dont care 2.0! (Less damage, no KB changes)

Wolf: Pure crap recovery, minimal combos, weak approaches, almost useless projectile
Suggestions: Speed up blaster or make it do something interesting (ZSS stun) so that its easy to dodge and block nature can at least lead to some followups. Recovery needs work big time, giving him a side B and an upB (if possible) would be a good way to do it. Gives him a better recovery and more edgeguard options (do each once, but in either order). Maybe lower ALR on fair to allow for another approach option and a bigger hitbox on uair, then move it down a bit (more inside his body, same amount above).

Link: Same as Ivy (Bad move pool)
Suggestions: Link is super solid how he is right now, but I really think if we could make his arrows, bombs, and boomerang a bit more combo friendly he would be awesome. Something like boomerang hits up with set knockback on hit (64), bombs have set KB, arrows have a semi spike, etc. Also dair. Give him back the 50% ALR everyone else has and change uair to have 30% on its own. Then make dair stronger by giving it more KBG as its a good combo finisher. This allows link to have a higher reward for a slightly higher risk. Makes the move seem more right.

Ness: Feels weak overall
Suggestions: I know we have been working on him, but fair needs to work. Dair should be a bit faster, smashes have more use (D smash for kills, U smash for juggles, F smash a bit more power at tip). PK fire be able to be canceled on landing (cool approach tool), air mines, and more useful U throw are more options.

Samus: Good spacing and approach, poor combo and kill options
Suggestions: Bombs and initial dash fixes. Missiles still shoot on the while landing (instead of that lame cancel) and maybe a bit more damage on throws to compensate for her weak grab.

Lucas: Crappy throws, projectiles are about worthless now, not alot of combos and few kill setups
Suggestions: Make D and U throw more combo friendly and give F and B throws a lower angle, projectiles could use a higher base KB and lower growth to allow more sheild stun for spacing purposes, Down B having a longer duration of hitbox would be really cool as it would allow for another edgeguard option

Pit: Feels lackluster, all he can really do is camp and counter camp. Few kill options, probably worst recovery in the game
Suggestions: Multi upBs is a must, Pit deserves it especially off stage. Less winddown on dair to allow for more mid air tricks (has a good hitbox), more KBG on last hit of U smash, make D smash more useful. More wind pushback on upB (edgeguards and spacing).

Mario: Just not as good as everyone else.
Suggestions: More BKB on nair, fix uair (75 instead of 100 growth), make cape in air float more or more height on up B and he should be perfect. He is just similar to Link and Ivy and just has a weak overall game. Instead of more height on upB we could extend the last hitbox duration. This would allow mario less edgehogged situations and therefore negate the need for more height.


These are just my opinions, what do you all think?

Edit:
And Yoshi:

More damage on throws, momentum on aerial side B, give him the ability to attack cancel side B, bigger eggsplosions, make neutral B keep in the egg longer, and more KB on U smash
 

Shell

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Voting for low 10 is up:

http://www.kwiksurveys.com/online-survey.php?surveyID=IMJHI_b01279ea

Edit: I also disagree with your assessment of Lucas's projectiles -- PK Fire is nearly impossible to punish when wavebounced, and difficult even when not. It does decent damage (8%), and perhaps more importantly than it's actual combat use, with the momentum code magnet pulling and zap jumping are now even better for movement mixups and recovery options. Also, his PKT1 can really **** a lot of people of the edge trying to recover to the point of almost warping the matchup.

PK freeze is terrible, but there's nothing we can do about that right now anyways. I agree that his d-throw needs a little less KBG and his u-throw a little more. I think his combo game is quite a bit better than you give it credit for, too. It's no falcon/fox/shiek/squirtle/mk combo game, but he doesn't have too much trouble stringing 3+ attacks together, basically average. Overall I'd rate him around the top of mid-tier, possibly bottom of high. A slight tweak to his throws if possible in the future and he's perfect.

The rest of the list is on the right track. I have Mario around 15th or so from the bottom. Overall though, most people just need a couple tweaks here or there and they're good.
 

kupo15

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after all the bowser buffs you still think he is subpar? lol (sounds like me with falcon but w.e, he got more buffs)

Posted the pit stuff in the pit thread cause I agree with what you said about him.
 

goodoldganon

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First, none of these characters are bad per say. All of them have strengths and the potential to win matches, I just feel these 10 characters have the most going against them. None of the characters need sweeping changes and many of these characters only need 1 change to be great.

In no order (sans alphabetical)

Bowser
C. Falcon (frankly I couldn't think of a 10th that well and he was the only one I kept coming back to)
Ganondorf
Ivysaur
DDD
Link
Ness
Samus
Wolf
Yoshi

Bowser: Bowser, like almost everyone in this list, is plagued by a poor moveset. He isn't that bad though and I think extending the length the hitboxs on his tilts are out would be the best way to help Bowser.

Ganondorf: Ganondorf can't deal with pressure and he can't deal with projectiles. If (and when) we implement untechable side-b I'd just like to replace his standing grab with his pivot grab and Ganon would be golden. Ganondorf is quite possibly our strongest character with the most array of kill options, something he should keep. His defense should stay poor but Ganon should be able to take a stock in two or three mistakes.

Ivysaur: See Capes post.

DDD: Minions need some loving. Otherwise he seems ok.

Link: The set knockback on bombs would be ideal as would somehow making the gale boomerang cool and usable.

Ness: Ness just needs stronger throws except U-throw which should combo.

Samus: Her approach options are limited and she is reduced mostly to camping. Fix the bombs and the initial dash, and then I'd consider a faster jab to help get people off her.

Wolf: Quite possibly the games worst recovery, and though a floaty spacie he still gets combo'd like one, making him lighter of the top. Wolf just needs character specific hitstun on him lowered and he'd be fine.

Yoshi: Fix the side-b up and he'd be fine. He isn't amazing but he is probably the most underrated character in B+.

And for the big one!!!!


Captain Falcon

Falcon seems fine at first but once people start playing 'gay' he starts to fall fast. (GET IT?!) Falcon has 0 priority to speak of meaning he loses every battle on that end. Also, the defensive options hurt Falcon more then any character. OoS options can wreck him if someone plays on the defensive against Falcon. And when Falcon finally gets a good hit in, people can just DI and spam the air dodge until they can escape. Of course Falcon can read the air dodge and punish accordingly. Plus, Falcon get's combo'd for absurd amounts and chaingrabbed like a mofo.

Basically, I think Falcon's punishment game isn't balanced with how hard he gets punished. I don't want Falcon to 0 to death people, so his punishment game doesn't need a huge buff though. I think he could use a bit more hitstun on his aerials (namely U-air and N-air). N-air could also use a slight size boost. D-tilt could use an angle adjustment as well as a speed increase. F-smash could also be a little meatier. Lastly, he needs to suffer less hitstun.

I know it's a lot to give to one character, but frankly he's Captain Falcon! He is the smash poster child and he should be above the curve. I know it's not the best reason to help out a character, but it is something to consider. He is immensely popular and will most likely be many people's first character to try in Brawl+ so he needs to be perfect. I think when we see more tournaments and more people playing for serious money and to win Falcon will fall. Frankly, just look at the character discussions board. Anyone that has discussed Falcon claims to have the advantage.
 

Revven

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I feel Ness is almost solid right now. He just need Dsmash initial hit to be fixed, DJC to be finished (so the SH height doesn't have to be SO SHORT) and Usmash initial hit + juggle ability. He will then have a successful onstage game because from what I played Monday, Ness was keeping up with MK pretty well and I felt that his onstage game as a whole was MUCH better than before. Definitely a difference.

Anyway here's who I voted for (in no particular order):
Pit
PT
Link
Ivysaur
Yoshi
DDD
Bowser
Wolf
Ness
Ganondorf

I do not agree on the assessment Cape gave for Mario. The only thing Mario needs is a Uair fix (the angle being back to what it needs to be) and I could agree to more height on the cape (isn't that controlled by grav like MK's 'nado? Get Almas to look at it please). While I feel Samus is definitely more lacking than Mario is, despite her ability to combo pretty well off of Dair it'd be nice if Uair linked better and wasn't so easy to SDI (the last hit NEVER hits if they SDI, which is SO EASY TO DO!!) While Mario can actually combo a lot of the cast from Utilt and Dthrow. (Can't forget Nair).

DDD, he seems to rack up the most damage with Bthrow, I think he's almost perfect. Link I just put there because I do feel he is still lacking.

Pokemon Trainer is what everyone is ignoring here. There's nothing special about him at all. We need to rework the switching system in order for him to be perfect. And no, I do NOT suggest we put the Hold R to skip the next Pokemon on Spawn because that just allows the player to completely skip a bad match-up with that Pokemon. It should be as strategic as possible, and we should find a way to make it so PT isn't so vulnerable when he tries to switch (I know we PROBABLY can't add invinc to the end of it but, if we can, this is what I'd want to do). Finally, I think that with a fix to his switching system that makes him appealing to use would make him perfect.

All I have to elaborate on right now, tired atm.
 

kupo15

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Captain Falcon

Falcon seems fine at first but once people start playing 'gay' he starts to fall fast. (GET IT?!) Falcon has 0 priority to speak of meaning he loses every battle on that end. Also, the defensive options hurt Falcon more then any character. OoS options can wreck him if someone plays on the defensive against Falcon. And when Falcon finally gets a good hit in, people can just DI and spam the air dodge until they can escape. Of course Falcon can read the air dodge and punish accordingly. Plus, Falcon get's combo'd for absurd amounts and chaingrabbed like a mofo.

Basically, I think Falcon's punishment game isn't balanced with how hard he gets punished. I don't want Falcon to 0 to death people, so his punishment game doesn't need a huge buff though. I think he could use a bit more hitstun on his aerials (namely U-air and N-air). N-air could also use a slight size boost. D-tilt could use an angle adjustment as well as a speed increase. F-smash could also be a little meatier. Lastly, he needs to suffer less hitstun.

I know it's a lot to give to one character, but frankly he's Captain Falcon! He is the smash poster child and he should be above the curve. I know it's not the best reason to help out a character, but it is something to consider. He is immensely popular and will most likely be many people's first character to try in Brawl+ so he needs to be perfect. I think when we see more tournaments and more people playing for serious money and to win Falcon will fall. Frankly, just look at the character discussions board. Anyone that has discussed Falcon claims to have the advantage.
Agree.

Its about time :p
 

GHNeko

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Lolwut.

There is nothing wrong with allowing PT to go backwards when he switches, allowing him to avoid a bad match up or a pokemon that the player isnt confident enough with is a good thing for PT.

It gives more appeal to the opponent AND its more strategic because you allow yourself more control over who to use in combat.

That and its more canonical. :V
 

Yeroc

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But that pretty much defeats the purpose of there being 3 pokemon in the first place. If you wanna play PT, learn all 3, not just the two who do the best against most of the people you have to play. That's like playing "indy pokes +" you have all the anti-CPing of multiple characters, and no downside. Fight with squirtle, die, KO with Char, skip back to squirtle. We may as well not even have Indies >_>.
 

Revven

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But that pretty much defeats the purpose of there being 3 pokemon in the first place. If you wanna play PT, learn all 3, not just the two who do the best against most of the people you have to play. That's like playing "indy pokes +" you have all the anti-CPing of multiple characters, and no downside. Fight with squirtle, die, KO with Char, skip back to squirtle. We may as well not even have Indies >_>.
My point exactly, thank you Yeroc! ^_^
 

The Cape

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What about just loading them all at the same time so that we can switch faster? This allows for a really unique style of play.
 

Magus420

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Is there some kind of issue with speeding up the animation following the load completing enough so you can't punish it by reaction? I've suggested that a number of times in the nightly thread.
 
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