Will this happen or not?

[Stryk9]

even without wobble iceclimbers have a ridiculous grab game

for all intents and purposes they can zero to death a ton of characters with well executed non-infinite combos


that should be enough and their grabs work on a huge range of characters

i dont think Ic's need wobble to be viable in tournies

 

[pockyD]

fox doesn't need shine to be viable either; he's plenty good without it (but clearly better with it)

i honestly don't have a side in this debate; i don't wobble but I don't really care if people do, so i'm fine with whatever rulesets exist

maybe they should ban poke floats and rainbow cruise x.x

 

[IronChief]

maybe they should ban poke floats and rainbow cruise x.x

I <3 Poke Floats

Been liking the replys people have been leaving good ****!

 

[Shai Hulud]

even without wobble iceclimbers have a ridiculous grab game

for all intents and purposes they can zero to death a ton of characters with well executed non-infinite combos


that should be enough and their grabs work on a huge range of characters

i dont think Ic's need wobble to be viable in tournies

That's an absurd argument. ICs are MIDDLE TIER. In general middle tier characters do not win tournaments.

Even without his shine, Fox would be a pretty good character. Probably top tier, but at the very least middle. That's hardly a reason to ban something, because character X is "good enough without it." You fail.

Edit--I just saw PockyD's post. Mine is almost the exact same. Great minds...lol

 

[meepxzero]

My two cents on wobbles. I feel the ic now need it to stand a chance against high level players. I was strongly against it when wobbles first introduced it, but even now chu does it all the time in tournies in md/va and he still cant beat people like chillin and azen with it. i miss the days when people didnt have a clue u could smash di dair cging -_-, but yah since people are playing twice as gay against ic being afraid of getting grabbed once it makes me not want to play them anymore sumtimes.

 

[N1c2k3]

*Agrees w/Meep* If Meep and I ever agree on something, it should immediately become enstated. I've been saying this time after time. Ppl place infiniting (I refuse to call it wobbling) on too high of a pedastel. It's not game breaking. True, it could POTENTIALLY mean a 1/4 of the match automatically, but 1: Ppl still don't understand how hard it is. It's really not easy. You have to be peferctly synched, it's easy to mash out of below 40% or so, I think, and you have to get the initial timing down perfectly as well, none of which is easy. 2: All ppl do is start thinking about that and then forget about the IC's obvious weaknesses. Peach, Falcon, Marth, and Samus are all char's who give them a seriously hard time. (meaning that the matchups is hugely tipped towards they're advt) Just look at the placings. There's still no other player besides Chu who's ever placed high in a huge (meaning all the top players were there) event, ESPECIALLY on a regular basis. IC's are, IMO, right where they should be on the tier list, and I would be surprised if they ever moved up. I've attempted the infinite in tourny probably over 20 times or so, being serious about it, and only truly gotten it (where it automatically led to his death) once. In friendlies maybe a few more times. Either way, it's still not something I go for pretty much ever, I say. I've been meaning to practice it , but even when I do get aroun to it, I know my stance won't change. Final words: Is it cheap? Yes. Can it turn the tide of a match instantly? Maybe. Is it cheaper than any of the top 3 char's other single best moves, in terms of overall placement and usefullness? Don't think so. Will IC's ever be top-tier? No. Is it game breaking? Definitely not. Should it be banned? I leave the decision with you...

 

[DynamicDuo]

I still do good without wobbling .

 

[1048576]

Alrighty then, if pros have become accustomed to it and they don't feel that it's game breaking, then I agree that it shouldn't be banned (for now). I still feel that it's game breaking, but I obv. have much less experience then them, so I'll yield on this one (for now) Anyway, is Pound 2 banning the toebiter trap as well? How many tilts does Nana get per grab, or do they measure it by percentage?

 

[Shai Hulud]

Alrighty then, if pros have become accustomed to it and they don't feel that it's game breaking, then I agree that it shouldn't be banned (for now). I still feel that it's game breaking, but I obv. have much less experience then them, so I'll yield on this one (for now) Anyway, is Pound 2 banning the toebiter trap as well? How many tilts does Nana get per grab, or do they measure it by percentage?

I think they're just letting people pause if they're getting wobbled...I don't see how else this could possibly be enforced.

But that brings up problems as well, as people may pause from any given grab, including "legitimate" chaingrabs.

 

[Red Exodus]

I hope they don't allow you to pause for cgs, they aren't that hard but after the first 2 tries [by 2 tries I mean 2 failed attempts like missing a catch and trying to start it again] it's best to give it up, but once you have it you have to be pretty focused.

What's the toebiter trap anyway?

 

[1048576]

Toebiter trap: same as wobbling except you use Nana's d-tilt (you attack their toes). It's different because it leaves your opponent one frame to escape, so it's technically not an infinite, but in reality it is, because nobody can mash the buttons/stick over 60 times per second, which is what it would require to escape.

Edit: typo fixed

Edit again: Except maybe ProSmasherTim. He has incredibly fast fingers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovxWM9ou-VU

 

[Marth_marth]

Lets just ban ssbm altogether its such a cheap game you know.

 

[DynamicDuo]

how about we ban u lol.

 

[Stryk9]

That's an absurd argument. ICs are MIDDLE TIER. In general middle tier characters do not win tournaments.

Even without his shine, Fox would be a pretty good character. Probably top tier, but at the very least middle. That's hardly a reason to ban something, because character X is "good enough without it." You fail.

Edit--I just saw PockyD's post. Mine is almost the exact same. Great minds...lol

hmmm, fox without shine? that would mean,

no waveshine no drill shine no shine spike no infinite none of the aformentioned waveshine combso (ie. waveshine upsmash, repeated waveshine grab uthrow uair) and no reflector


i dont think you really considered what a shineless fox would involve


he would not be top tier. that is all.

 

[the_irish_dude]

hmm a shineless fox...sounds like old school ssb lol those were the days...

 

[Oskurito]

Toebiter trap: same as wobbling except you use Nana's d-tilt (you attack their toes). It's different because it leaves your opponent one frame to escape, so it's technically not an infinite, but in reality it is, because nobody can mash the buttons/stick over 60 times per second, which is what it would require to escape.

Edit: typo fixed

Edit again: Except maybe ProSmasherTim. He has incredibly fast fingers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovxWM9ou-VU

:O he's pretty fast.

Fox wont be what he is if he doesn't have the shine

 

[Shai Hulud]

hmmm, fox without shine? that would mean,

no waveshine no drill shine no shine spike no infinite none of the aformentioned waveshine combso (ie. waveshine upsmash, repeated waveshine grab uthrow uair) and no reflector


i dont think you really considered what a shineless fox would involve


he would not be top tier. that is all.

The shine infinites are rarely used, and you can only wave/drill shine like 5 characters anyway. Main use of of shine is to avoid getting shield-grabbed.

If you watch really good Foxes they don't use waveshines etc all that much. Fox would easily still be top tier. Maybe not God tier, but top tier.

But you missed the point--it's irrelevant anyhow.

 

[1048576]

Do non-IC pros consent that the infinite is not game-breaking? I think the answer to that will determine my official stance on the issue.

Fox would suck without his shine. He is by far the easiest character to combo in the game, because he falls the fastest. He also is the fifth lightest character in the game. He also has a predictable, linear recovery. He also will only be able to KO in one direction, with two attacks. He will lose the only attack that gives him a chance to break his opponent's combos. I know it's irrelevant, but I like to argue. I'd give him mid tier, below Link.

 

[Perfect Hero]

East Coast smashers are scrubs.

This kind of crap makes me sad to be part of this community.

QFMFT
Smash community throw around the word "cheap" too much. Just play the **** game and have fun. If you lose to wobbling, then up your game and stop complaining. /stops complaining.

Whatever, Old school chaingrabs ftw anyway. . .

 

[1048576]

Cheap is very relevant in this case, as I have stated at least a dozen times before. As for your other argument, what about the IC player. If my opponent has to massively up his game before he/she has a chance to win and I get to still play like a moron, simply leeching off his/her four (seven frame) mistakes made throughout the game, then we have a bannable tactic. If the IC's were easily comboable to death, such that a mistake by the IC's was equally punishable, then it would be okay, but the IC's are floaty, and they have each other to break combos on their partner, so it's not okay. The IC's are now imbalanced, and I am convinced of this until some pros tell me otherwise.

 

[DynamicDuo]

where I live, they banned wobbling.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Cheap is very relevant in this case, as I have stated at least a dozen times before. As for your other argument, what about the IC player. If my opponent has to massively up his game before he/she has a chance to win and I get to still play like a moron, simply leeching off his/her four (seven frame) mistakes made throughout the game, then we have a bannable tactic. If the IC's were easily comboable to death, such that a mistake by the IC's was equally punishable, then it would be okay, but the IC's are floaty, and they have each other to break combos on their partner, so it's not okay. The IC's are now imbalanced, and I am convinced of this until some pros tell me otherwise.

Scrub.

You essentially lose 1/4 of your "life" when you get wobbled. This infinite is very tame compared to those in other fighters. Moreover, ICs are easily counterpicked. Play Peach. Play Jiggs. Play Captain Falcon. Go Poke Floats.

Hell, go Ice Climbers.

The point is that there are plenty of ways to balance out the matchups. Like I have stated a dozen times before, ICs are still not the best character in the game. They are at most top tier, and why shouldn't they be?

And there are many pros who support wobbling. Check the Evo South thread that started all this brouhaha (because Wobbles won, and he's not an established pro, oh noes!)

As far as I know Norcal allows wobbling, as does most of the country.

 

[1048576]

Yes, scrub, whatever. If Giga Bowser were playable without AR I'd want him banned, too. I'm even glad Akuma is banned. I'm such a scrub. It's a terrible thing. You can't compare the damage in smash to a life bar in tradittional fighting games. Because you never are forced to die due to having too high damage, you never really know how much "life" you lose when you take a given amount of damage. Any move that is as easy to execute as Wobbling that takes a stock every time is too much. Also, it's impossible to win a set if you only win the matches in which you get to counterpick. IC's are now, by far, the best character in the game now, in my opinion. It's not balanced. Balance in a fighting game is good, IMO. IC's are still good without the infinite, and they still can infinite chaingrab at least as many characters as Fox can infinite waveshine. An automatic 20 to death combo on every playable character anywhere on the stage except itself is too much. A tactic like that is broken, and should be banned. Again,. I'd be cool with it if every character had a similar tactic, but they don't, which makes the IC's overpowered, so I think that Wobbling should be banned in order for IC to be balanced again.

 

[Hylian]

They closed my Evo South thread because of you people.



******.

And Wobbles has recently beat caveman in tourny WITHOUT wobbling because it was banned at that particular tounrament.

 

[Shai Hulud]

^^^

See? Wobbles is just that good. He doesn't win because of an infinite.

Akuma, on the other hand, is an extremely broken super character that other characters can't even pretend to fight. There's no comparison.

 

[NES n00b]

^^^

See? Wobbles is just that good. He doesn't win because of an infinite.

Akuma, on the other hand, is an extremely broken super character that other characters can't even pretend to fight. There's no comparison.

What do you mean? Smash does have broken characters that are Akuma status. Link, Mario, and Luigi are just as broken if not even more so. (In my dreams )

Anyways, just counterpick a stage and character for Ice Climber battles. If you cannot choose Pokefloats or whatever, platform camp. I do have to admit that the three characters I listed are completely unusable against Ice Climbers which makes me sad.

@Shai Hulud You better contact me sometime and come up here to play Smash or something.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Yes, scrub, whatever. If Giga Bowser were playable without AR I'd want him banned, too. I'm even glad Akuma is banned. I'm such a scrub.

Akuma is banned because he has a 9-1 (IIRC) matchup against everything that isn't Akuma. Ice Climbers don't have that kind of advantage, with or without wobbling.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Go to a moving stage, like Pokefloats, Rapinbow Cruise, Mute City, etc. They can't ban all those stages. Ban Final Destination. There, IC's are less of a problem, regardless of what character you play. Still tough to fight against for many characters, or if you don't know the matchup and/or playing against a better player than yourself. If they know the matchup or are a better player than you, they deserve to beat you. Or if you can't beat them, join them! Learn how to play IC dittos. I don't like the idea of banning characters from smash altogether. No one is that broken. And if you don't like playing in tournaments against IC's, play in low tier tournaments. That's what they're there for. I don't think Smash would be as good of a game if it didn't have the variety it has.

 

[DynamicDuo]

Dsmash all day with peach !!!! thats they're counter.

 

[1048576]

^^^

See? Wobbles is just that good. He doesn't win because of an infinite.

Akuma, on the other hand, is an extremely broken super character that other characters can't even pretend to fight. There's no comparison.

So Ice Climbers are balanced without the infinite. Glad to hear it.
To Rapid Assassin: I don't like that, if you can't beat the infinite, learn IC's mentality. Super Smassh Bros. Melee has 25 playable characters. 26 if you count Zelda and Sheik as separate entities. I don't see why we should reduce the game to IC dittos just to preserve every character's entire moveset. I'm not advocating a complete ban. Just restrict Nana to three tilts per grab. That's like 15 damage, and if you follow up with a throw-smash, that's like 30 damage, and a potential for follow up. This keeps the game balanced by allowing the IC's to remain competitive while allowing for an effective counter. Peach is great. Certain stages are great. They do not account for human error. The fact is, nobody plays flawlessly. There should be a way to win even if you do blink four times in one match. (A blink takes about six frames ) The IC player can blink and not die, why shouldn't his/her opponents have the same luxury.

 

[psicicle]

So Ice Climbers are balanced without the infinite. Glad to hear it.
To Rapid Assassin: I don't like that, if you can't beat the infinite, learn IC's mentality. Super Smassh Bros. Melee has 25 playable characters. 26 if you count Zelda and Sheik as separate entities. I don't see why we should reduce the game to IC dittos just to preserve every character's entire moveset. I'm not advocating a complete ban. Just restrict Nana to three tilts per grab. That's like 15 damage, and if you follow up with a throw-smash, that's like 30 damage, and a potential for follow up. This keeps the game balanced by allowing the IC's to remain competitive while allowing for an effective counter. Peach is great. Certain stages are great. They do not account for human error. The fact is, nobody plays flawlessly. There should be a way to win even if you do blink four times in one match. (A blink takes about six frames ) The IC player can blink and not die, why shouldn't his/her opponents have the same luxury.

That's a lot of exaggeration.

First, just because the ICs are balanced with no infinite doesnt mean we should just take it out of tourney play. Fox is balanced without shining, hell everyone is balanced if you just took away all of their wavedashing!

The game right now is definitely not "[reduced] to IC dittos", if anything there is a prevalence of foxes and falcos. Should we just take out their shines just so that we see less of those? There is only one very well known pro IC, and it's not like he has suddenly started demolishing ken, azen etc. with the discovery of wobbling. I think this goes to show that with that state of the game at present, wobbling does not deserve a ban. At high levels of play, that grab is VERY hard to pull off.

To sum what I think up, wobbling should now be banned until we do see the majority of tournaments being won by the ice climbers AND the majority of tourney users playing the ice climbers. I think that even that may be a little extreme as tourneys now are dominated by foxes and falcos anyway.

I know you don't mean it literally, but the blinking thing is just a load of hyperbole. You can y'know, attack with your eyes closed.

One note: have you played a wobbling IC with anyone other than the ICs because I actually haven't; I dont know any good ice climber players.

 

[1048576]

Do you have any idea how hard it is to change your main at the pro level. I don't, but I assume it's a doozy. Tourneys will always have Falcos, Foxes, Marths, Peaches, Sheiks, and IC's, and hell, even Samuses because M2K, Vidjo, PC Chris, DSF, Wes, Chu Dat, Husband (is he even good anymore), etc... aren't going to change characters after five years. I know Ken can play Fox now and Chu has been experimenting with Pika and Young Link, but they do infinitely better in tourneys with their mains. Azen is the exception, of course, and this is why he is so special. Thus, we don't need to see an overrepresentation of IC's at the tourney level to warrant a restriction on Nana's f-tilt and d-tilt. I believe that with perfect theoretical play, nobody would ever get hit. Thus, when someone gets hit, it is because they made a mistake. When somebody is playing IC's, they are able to make significantly more mistakes. This is a lack of balance should be corrected. Obviously, I think most people here agree that if Giga Bowser were playable without AR, he'd be banned from official tournaments. It's just a matter of where you draw the line. How much imbalance can each individual tolerate? I'm cool with shining because one shine is not insta-death, and it requires a lot of skill to shine effectively. Wobbling at this point is like pulling off a rest, but if you miss you don't suffer 200+ frames of end lag. I choose to draw the line of tolerable imbalance in front of that. True, pros don't get rested very often, but a rest with virtually no end lag is still broken and imbalanced.

I admit that I've never played against a Wobbling IC. However, I've played against people who four stocked my main, then lost when I switched to IC's.

 

[PB&J]

wobbling shouldn't be banned because it is hard to pull off on high level play...but if u have a broblem playing icy's use ganon..i think he beats the crap out of them..thats my hardest match up...ill play a thousand good peaches before i play one good ganon...

 

[1048576]

No matter who you use, you have to play like god and not make a seven frame mistake more than three times. A seven frame mistake is anything from putting up your shield to missing a d-smash with Peach.

 

[Shai Hulud]

No matter who you use, you have to play like god and not make a seven frame mistake more than three times. A seven frame mistake is anything from putting up your shield to missing a d-smash with Peach.

You assume people have a perfect ability to punish mistakes in a 7 frame window. They do not. Noone can possibly react to anything that fast. You have to anticipate the mistake, which involves a certain degree of risk. If I try to grab a Fox, thinking he might miss the L-cancel, I'll get shined if he didn't miss it. If he did miss it I'll get the grab, but most likely he didn't. Nine times out of ten I'd get shined.

 

[psicicle]

I lost my long post response, but my basic gist was: Chu Dat, who is supposedly the best ice climbers in the world does NOT beat other pros with ease. In fact, wobbling hasn't had much of an impact on his ranking (I believe).

If wobbling really did create such a huge imbalance, why aren't there the IC players who picked up the ICs just for wobbles who do well?

If the ice climbers start to win every tournament that allows wobbling, then I will concede this point, but they clearly are not. You can theoreticize all you want but ultimately, your theoreticizations will miss some variables here or there; they will not be too accurate a model. People who's careers are pretty much to theoreticize (like the stock market analysts) do not generally do to well at predicting which stock will do well and which won't. Smash brothers is a very complicated game, and it is this depth that generally renders discussion about what is "theoretically" good and what is "theoretically" bad inaccurate. If you are talking about some "metagame", it does not have any real significance to tourney play because "perfect" play will have the player powershielding any non-grab move and therefore it will come down to grab range and knockback.

Again, this whole "seven frames" thing is hyperbole. Tourney play is far from perfection.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Okay, what game are we referring to with the Akuma thing?

 

[1048576]

I lost my long post response, but my basic gist was: Chu Dat, who is supposedly the best ice climbers in the world does NOT beat other pros with ease. In fact, wobbling hasn't had much of an impact on his ranking (I believe).

If wobbling really did create such a huge imbalance, why aren't there the IC players who picked up the ICs just for wobbles who do well?

If the ice climbers start to win every tournament that allows wobbling, then I will concede this point, but they clearly are not. You can theoreticize all you want but ultimately, your theoreticizations will miss some variables here or there; they will not be too accurate a model. People who's careers are pretty much to theoreticize (like the stock market analysts) do not generally do to well at predicting which stock will do well and which won't. Smash brothers is a very complicated game, and it is this depth that generally renders discussion about what is "theoretically" good and what is "theoretically" bad inaccurate. If you are talking about some "metagame", it does not have any real significance to tourney play because "perfect" play will have the player powershielding any non-grab move and therefore it will come down to grab range and knockback.

Again, this whole "seven frames" thing is hyperbole. Tourney play is far from perfection.

The stock market is a whole different ballgame. If you have ever taken an economics course, you'd know that stocks tend to follow a random walk. Stock market analysts can pinpoint pretty well the value of a stock at its current level and the probable direction the company will be taking. Because there are so many experts accurately predicting the value of a stock, the price of a stock tends to quickly reach the equilibrium level and reflect the actual value of a stock. In other words, if a bunch of analysts predict that nobody will eat corn next year, people will want to sell their corn stocks, and the price of the stock will fall to where it should be, based on the probable outcome of the corn companies. From there, luck determines who will make a profit. If a tornado comes around and wipes out all the green beans, people will have to eat corn, a substitute good. Then the people holding corn stocks will make a profit as the demand for corn stock rises, and the price of a stock of corn (pardon the pun) increases. The stock market is luck. Theoretical economists have determined this (assuming everybody has access to the same information) and it holds true for the most part.

Anyway, regarding the whole seven frames thing. It's not hyperbole. Granted, the IC player cannot punish every mistake, but the point remains that the IC opponent must play at least as good as the IC player for all but three points in the match. In other words, if the opponent makes a mistake, the IC player must mess up as well or else, well, there goes a stock. The IC player can play worse than his opponent at least 20 times in one match (I pulled that number out of my ***, but it seems about right) I don't think Wobbling affects Chu Dat that much because he is so good that he can kill off one grab with or without the infinite.

To Shai: It's hard to L-Cancel a double sheild. Even so, Fox can't really follow up after a shine (no grab, no waveshine), so you're looking at like 40% for Fox, a stock for IC's, and that's assuming that the Fox is skilled enough to do something if you shield the shine. You can grab the Fox if he jumps too slowly or if Nana absorbs the impact of the shine with her shield.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but here's the argument as I see it:

Me: Wobbling is easy, therefore cheap and imbalanced. Kill it.

Everyone else: Wobbling is hard, therefore not cheap or (overly) imbalanced. Let it live.

I'd say we've got a stalemate, since you can't prove either point.

 

[psicicle]

I haven't thought about the stock market thing, but I think that you have gotten yourself dug into a hole by saying:
"I don't think Wobbling affects Chu Dat that much because he is so good that he can kill off one grab with or without the infinite."

because that just goes to show that at a high level of play, the ice climbers are not imbalanced, or even significantly better than the other characters. That is pretty solid proof right there.

 

[halfDemon]

Chu can land almost all of his grabs without fail, correct? So, if he then chose to wobble instead of CG, he would utterly destroy people. Saying he isn't number one even with wobbling is irrelevant because he doesn't always choose to wobble every grab. But he could choose to do so, he just doesn't. If he did, however, I'm sure more people would recognize how broken wobbling really is.