Will this happen or not?

[psicicle]

Why don't we allow AR in tournaments? That seems arbitrary.

It modifies the game code or does something that the code would not normally not.

Wobbles does not.

 

[knightpraetor]

the only thing that makes me question wobbling is the use of it by chu dat..if you say some of the grabs he gets...sigh...anyways, with counterpicking you can still kill IC so whatever

anyways, FCD should have some good wobbling no? once the matches come out

 

[Mr.C]

sry double post.

 

[Mr.C]

post messed up lols

 

[Mr.C]

I posted this in another Wobbling topic.

wobbling is imbalanced.

It gets rid of your characters ability to move and can be USED to stall a match which is why peach bombing, freeze glitch's are banned.....

everyone gets grabbed and the only argument for people who want wobbling is "dont get grabbed" which is ridiculous. If dont get grabbed works then "powershield everytime" is a valid excuse for being laser spammed. Except getting grabbed usually leads to taking a hit or two in the wobbling's case one grab leads to one stock completely gone. Now if people are going to argue then why are cg's and shines allowed??!?!@# because you can DI, tech and atleast have a CHANCE to survive while with the wobbles the only chance you have of not dieing is if your opponents messes up.....which isnt going to happen because the wobbles is jabs and ftilts. lol. Now go back and watch ken vs pc chris or m2k vs any other top player in the u.s.a all of these pros average 10-20...if the best in the world are being grabbed 10-20 times in a single match how is wobbling not imbalanced? everyone gets grabbed...ofcourse skilled people can reduce the amount of times we are grabbed but still 4 grabs = you lose the match if your playing ice climbers aka imbalanced.

Look back at recent bannings of levels/techniques. Peach bombing was banned because it can stall meaning you can get in %'s ahead then stall the whole match ofcourse the counter to this is "dont let him get ahead" which is also ridiculous. Peach bombing was a very powerful and imbalanced technique which is why it was banned. Same with Onett/Hyrule because of Fox players. These are very one sided matchs when a Fox counter picks one of these levels especially Hyrule. Why? because Fox can simply laser, get percentage and run away for 7 minutes. Imbalanced which is why Hyrule was banned. It was unfair to other characters. Ofcourse the counter to Fox on Hyrule is "dont get lasered."

I have an idea lets all "Not get hit" and were automatically the best in the world! YAY! lol gg

We still do not see wobbling Ice Climbers winning major tournaments over and over and over.

Why? because there are two actual good Ice Climber players that can wobble efficiently. At this late in the smash era top players will not pick up another character they are not comfortable with and use them in tournaments.

If you people seriously think wobbling is not imbalanced....lay off the cocaine.

The fact that a game like MvC2 can allow so many things that are just as powerful as wobbling causes to a single stock (a stock being one of your three characters in MvC2), then why cannot a game like SSBM be fine playing at high levels with this in it when you even have more chances after it happens?

because in games like MvC2 alot of combinations of characters are capable of infiniting, which means it is very easy to come back from losing. In smash if you have one stock taken off by wobbling at 0% and still have chances of being inf'd again your chances of coming back and winning are slim.

Lets just remember the only character in the game that has a technique that can infinite is Ice Climber's. Where in MvC2 most people use the same character combinations allowing them to infinite while in SSBM in order to infinite you have to be Ice Climbers.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

anyways, FCD should have some good wobbling no? once the matches come out

Just watch the FCD Recional Crew matches on Youtube. Chu wobbles in those

 

[Mr.C]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4wPybFSu0Lo

EC VS MW

jiano vs chu 1st match in crews
6 grabs from (6/6 w/ nana "2 of them being wobbles")

Chu vs Vidjo 2nd match in crews (a peach on mute)
7 grabs with 2 stock (5/7 with nana "1 wobble")

Chu takes off a total of 7 stock (3/7 were wobbles)

thats just showing how pro's get grabbed and how many chances there are to wobble.

 

[psicicle]

I posted this in another Wobbling topic.

wobbling is imbalanced.

It gets rid of your characters ability to move and can be USED to stall a match which is why peach bombing, freeze glitch's are banned.....

everyone gets grabbed and the only argument for people who want wobbling is "dont get grabbed" which is ridiculous. If dont get grabbed works then "powershield everytime" is a valid excuse for being laser spammed. Except getting grabbed usually leads to taking a hit or two in the wobbling's case one grab leads to one stock completely gone. Now if people are going to argue then why are cg's and shines allowed??!?!@# because you can DI, tech and atleast have a CHANCE to survive while with the wobbles the only chance you have of not dieing is if your opponents messes up.....which isnt going to happen because the wobbles is jabs and ftilts. lol. Now go back and watch ken vs pc chris or m2k vs any other top player in the u.s.a all of these pros average 10-20...if the best in the world are being grabbed 10-20 times in a single match how is wobbling not imbalanced? everyone gets grabbed...ofcourse skilled people can reduce the amount of times we are grabbed but still 4 grabs = you lose the match if your playing ice climbers aka imbalanced.

Have you ever tried to wobble against somebody good/better than you? It is more difficult to wobble than to set up chaingrabs, and it is situational. Nana must be synced with you unless the opponent is at 100+ damage and even with nana synced the opponent must have about 30 damage or so to start it. Getting a grab with nana synced is tough if you play against someone who is as good or better than you. 4 grabs does not = you lose because a lot of the time nana is not there, and the opponent is not at enough damage, and it is safer to just combo off a d-throw half the time.


I have an idea lets all "Not get hit" and were automatically the best in the world! YAY! lol gg

Why? because there are two actual good Ice Climber players that can wobble efficiently. At this late in the smash era top players will not pick up another character they are not comfortable with and use them in tournaments.

so it apparently does not affect tournaments anyway does it? You are still speaking in theory and the facts show otherwise. Why ban it when there are only two that can do it well, and why is it so gamebreaking if only two people can do it well?

If you people seriously think wobbling is not imbalanced....lay off the cocaine.

I like this gem of an argument


In closing:

Two people can use wobbling well apparently. However, 4 grabs = lose? If wobbling were such an amazing gamebreaking tactic, we'd see lots of amateur IC players winning tourneys or at least more than two people who can place.

Evidence > Theory

Theory is based on a model that is imperfect. It does not accurately include every variable. Evidence does.

 

[Mr.C]

yes ive wobbled people better then me
theres nothing hard about getting a grab jabbing and ftilting

and im not saying 4 grabs = loss im saying 4 grab in a game vs someone who can wobbles CAN be a loss

so it apparently does not affect tournaments anyway does it? You are still speaking in theory and the facts show otherwise. Why ban it when there are only two that can do it well, and why is it so gamebreaking if only two people can do it well?

just because you dont see wobblers placing top 5 in america does not change the fact the move is imbalanced

thats like saying just because a fox player can counter pick hyrule and laser spam.....he automatically gets 1st place.....it doesnt work like that but it also doesnt change the fact that hyrule was banned because it was imbalanced when Fox counter picked it.

anything that can punish a mistake with one stock 100% from a grab is evidence enough

is jiano vs chu dat not evidence? a very good falcon getting grabbed and wobbled so easily....

quit being a homosexual plz thnx

 

[psicicle]

yes ive wobbled people better then me
theres nothing hard about getting a grab jabbing and ftilting

just because you dont see wobblers placing top 5 in america does not change the fact the move is imbalanced

Yes, it does. And I believe we are arguing about its banworthiness, not whether it is imbalanced or not because there is a lot of stuff in the game that is imbalanced.

If top players are not forced to play IC dittos, if chu dat does not win every tourney he goes to since the discovery of wobbling, it is not broken or banworthy.

If wobbling is indeed gamebreaking, the best IC player in the US (I have no idea outside) should be winning all tourneys he goes to. Yet people beat him. Does anybody really think that a wobbling ice climbers replaces fox and falco in the top tier, or is so much better than those two that the wobbling tactic should be banned just to keep the tiers the same?

 

[Team Giza]

because in games like MvC2 alot of combinations of characters are capable of infiniting, which means it is very easy to come back from losing. In smash if you have one stock taken off by wobbling at 0% and still have chances of being inf'd again your chances of coming back and winning are slim.

Lets just remember the only character in the game that has a technique that can infinite is Ice Climber's. Where in MvC2 most people use the same character combinations allowing them to infinite while in SSBM in order to infinite you have to be Ice Climbers.

Not really... you have teams with Magneto and teams with Iron Man... and umm... thats it really, oh and Psylocke but getting that off is very very rare. It does have a slightly higher % of the cast having infinites then Smash but only very slight. Plus a lot of the teams that are used in Marvel vs Capcom 2 do not have infinites so I don't see how your point is valid. MvC2 runs more on resets, which Smash does too with stuff like tech chasing and edge guarding.

Smash has two characters with infinites. IC and Fox, Fox is character based or level based and tough to perform so he is like Magneto. Ice Climbers are like Iron Man, his infinite is relatively easy to do when compared to the other infinites in the game. That does not mean that it should be banned. Obviously tournament results have shown that the wobbling is not broken. I believe we need ti wait until we get more details. But good argument! Better than numbers.

 

[Mr.C]

tournament results should have no affect to a banning when the technique is so over powerd. Stalling techniques, hyrule and onett werent banned because random scrubs or even top players were placing top 3 at major tournaments they were banned because the smash community realized they were too powerful of tactics/counter picks.

techniques/levels that are too imbalanced are banned.

this has nothing to do with the tiers or replacing people in the tier list it has nothing to do with icy's placing well in tourneys. Get that out of your head. Look at the infinite grab and what it does. Look at how over powered it is then take into consideration all of the other imbalanced things as in techniques (not moves) and levels... and tell me what happened with them? they were banned because of balancing issues or just being too overpowered

If inf is allowed I think freeze glitching, wall bomb stalling, rising pound stalling, hyrule, onett should be allowed aswell. Since the wobble is almost every single banned thing put into one.

 

[Nintendude]

If inf is allowed I think freeze glitching, wall bomb stalling, rising pound stalling, hyrule, onett should be allowed aswell. Since the wobble is almost every single banned thing put into one.

Wobbling to stall isn't allowed, so I have no clue what you are talking about. At most it's a 30-death combo, and there are unbanned 0-death combos (some need like a simple edgeguard or something) in this game.

Until ICs are considered the best character in the game, which they are not, there's no reason to even consider banning wobbling.

 

[Mr.C]

well since your a noob and im actually good at this game

i cant take what your saying seriously =( sorry

EDIT: *guy in the background* "owned"

 

[Team Giza]

Difficulty should not be the issue here. Nor should the lowering of depth after the grab has taken effect. The issue is, does wobbling take skill out of the game? Obviously it should not be banned if it does not remove the skill factor from the game. Anyone who has played as the Ice Climbers against a a top player knows that it is not easy to plant a grab on them. I know I'm gonna sound very dumb by doing this (since so many people do) but I am going to compare shine spiking to wobbling. As we all know shinespiking is a situational move, usually set up for, that can work on every character (sometimes positions might be slightly different) but it has the chance of actually killing them if the shine connects at 0%. There is no way to DI out of a shine spike if done properly (for most characters). It is certain death. Wobbling is very very similar to this. It is a situational move that is usually set up for and it works on every characters (sometimes percentages might have to be different to start it), but if it connects at around 20-30%, it is certain death, but only if the player can keep up the rhyme of the attack (which is not too hard... though I cannot perform it myself).

No I probably made myself sound ******** there, but regardless I feel that the moves are quite similar. Other tactics that have been banned so far have been because they completely remove the skill from the game (freeze glitch and hyrule temple lol Fox lazer running) or are stall tactics, which are actually pretty much for the same reason (wobbling have the same stall rules as Jigglypuff's rising pound). Obviously wobbling does not completely remove skill from the game, you cannot do everything at your own leisure after you get the grab off because the rhyme must be kept up and the grabs can be avoidable (which I agree you should of been avoiding anyway). Either way, even with the wobbling there I do not even believe Ice Climbers are the best character in the game so removing such a move seems completely pointless to me.

 

[Nintendude]

well since your a noob and im actually good at this game

i cant take what your saying seriously =( sorry

EDIT: *guy in the background* "owned"

Was that directed at me?

 

[Binx]

Im not all that great but to me Wobbling seems like it isnt overpowered, most of the time its difficult to get it in, its been said that its hard to grab with Nana synched and this is very true, basically the most consistent wobble is a shield grab and that doesnt happen often vs experienced players, if you watch chu he doesnt wobble very often at all and that isnt because he is being nice its because he knows when it will and wont work, if you are staying mobile enough to keep up with top players then most like your nana isnt synched and you will be lucky to even follow up the grab with a nana smash let alone a wobble, hell I would say a good 50% of my grabs need to be done while nana is still running to me and I have to hope I can get a good tech chase to add in any good chain throws.

 

[Mr.C]

2 wobbles out of 4 stock is not alot? lol

if grabbing with nana synched is so hard then how are icy grab combo's even possible?
last time i checked in order to dair cg or anything that involves nana when grabbed she has to be synched which happens to be about 98% of all grabs that icys do while nana is not dead. lol.

and if it happens to be that nana cannot get to you in time you can dthrow cg vs certain characters or get in a tech chase...both are easy.

 

[Shai Hulud]

well since your a noob and im actually good at this game

i cant take what your saying seriously =( sorry

EDIT: *guy in the background* "owned"

Wow you're a *******.

And you're not that good.

 

[dj asakura]

last i checked, chu has placed no higher then he did before wobbling was found and he seems to be the ONLY IC player to place high at all.

and yet you see all these fox's, falco's, marth's, sheik's and peaches placing consistantly high. there is no reason and no point in banning a move that has not helped someone place higher.

also keep in mind, in almost any situation if the IC's grab you, 8/10 times, you lose that stock anyway, wobble or not

 

[dj asakura]

I apologize for the double post but I feel this input in needed in it's own post.

Taken from the website given in the Wobbling Breakdown Thread just below this one.

www.sirlin.net has this to say about banning something

Only in the most extreme, rare cases should something be banned because it is “too good.” This will be the most common type of ban requested by players, and almost all of their requests will be foolish. Banning a tactic simply because it is “the best” isn’t even warranted. That only reduces the game to all the “second best” tactics, which isn’t necessarily any better of a game than the original game. In fact, it’s often worse!

The only reasonable case to ban something because it is “too good” is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics. It is possible, though very rare, that removing an element of the game that is not only “the best” but also “ten times better than anything else in the game” results in a better game. I emphasize that is extremely rare. The most common case is that the player requesting the ban doesn’t fully grasp that the game is, in fact, not all about that one tactic. He should win several tournaments using mainly this tactic to prove his point. Another, far rarer possibility is that he’s right. The game really is shallow and centered on one thing (whether that one thing is a bug or by design is irrelevant). In that case, the best course of action is usually to abandon the game and play one of the hundreds of other readily available good games in the world.

Only in the ultra-rare case that the player is right and the game is worth saving and the game without the ultra-tactic is a ten times better game—only then is the notion even worth fighting for. And even in this case, it may take time for the game to mature enough for a great percentage of the best players and tournament organizers to realize that tactic should, indeed, be banned. Before an official ban takes place, there can also be something called “soft ban.” Let’s look at an example.

 

[dj asakura]

*sigh* i dont mean to triple post but the edit function isnt working for me currently...hopefully this doesnt somehow offend anyone.

one last thing i found on that same page at sirlin.net

How does one know if a bug destroys the game or even if a legitimate tactic destroys it? The rule of thumb is to assume it doesn’t and keep playing, because 99% of the time, as good as the tactic may be, there will either be a way to counter it or other even better tactics. Prematurely banning something is the scrub’s way. It prevents the scrub from ever discovering the counter to the Valle CC or the diamond trick. It also creates artificial rules that alter the game, when it’s entirely possible that the game was just fine the way it was. It also usually leads to an avalanche of bans in order to be consistent with the first. When players think they have found a game-breaking tactic, I advise them to go win some tournaments with it. If they can prove that the game really is reduced to just that tactic, then perhaps a ban is warranted. It’s extremely rare that a player is ever able to prove this though. In fact, I don’t even have any examples of it.

there you have it.
if you've read both those excerpts and still honestly believe there is a legitmate reason to ban wobbling (outside of stalling which has already been banned) then there is something wrong with your logic

 

[psicicle]

tournament results should have no affect to a banning when the technique is so over powerd. Stalling techniques, hyrule and onett werent banned because random scrubs or even top players were placing top 3 at major tournaments they were banned because the smash community realized they were too powerful of tactics/counter picks.

techniques/levels that are too imbalanced are banned.

this has nothing to do with the tiers or replacing people in the tier list it has nothing to do with icy's placing well in tourneys. Get that out of your head. Look at the infinite grab and what it does. Look at how over powered it is then take into consideration all of the other imbalanced things as in techniques (not moves) and levels... and tell me what happened with them? they were banned because of balancing issues or just being too overpowered

If inf is allowed I think freeze glitching, wall bomb stalling, rising pound stalling, hyrule, onett should be allowed aswell. Since the wobble is almost every single banned thing put into one.

Tournament results have everything to do with banning a technique because they represent the best way to play the game that people have found so far. If these tactics are too overpowered then they would have been abused in tourneys.

If the ice climbers became overpowered with the introduction of wobbling, then the tier list changes. They should rise to top tier. In fact, if it is so gamebreaking, they should rise far beyond fox and falco. However, does anybody here consider them to be the best character in the game simply with the introduction of wobbling? If you want balance, then take away something from the top tiers.

And insulting people does not make your post or logic better, in fact to most people it will do the opposite.