*Sigh okay, here goes nothing:
To choknater. I'm listening to you.
I'm just disagreeing is all. I'd say the real level of difficulty in executing a grab whereby you can keep the opponent grabbed until Nana is ready with the f-tilts is somewhere in between what you're implying and what I'm implying. After all, even though the primary purpose to an IC opponent should be to not get grabbed, the primary purpose in playing IC's is to land a grab, so it balances out. Yes, no decent player would lose to a Wobbler unless the IC was decent as well. However, if both players are decent, I think (from experience) that the IC will win almost every time because the opponent will either be grabbed by accidentally blinking or putting up their shield, or the opponent will have to use awkward and esoteric maneuvers to be absolutely sure to avoid the grab, and as a result will eat desynced blizzards/smashes/b-airs/whatever, because they have to devote the majority of their defense to avoiding grabs, and the majority of their offense to killing Nana, meaning that Popo's hammer is free to do as it wishes. At least that's what happens when I play IC's.
To juganthestar: First off, wtf implying that I will ignore choknater. If you read the "beating the infinite" thread, you will realize that I try to acknowledge every intelligent post and counter it with my own opinions. Anyhoo, on the shine: yes it is cheap. Yes it is broken. However, I have never seen the shine infinite anybody in a tournament. Think about it, if you are against a wall, you won't die form the shine because you can always tech the kill blow. Also, the way the infinite waveshine works, you have to jump and manuever the control stick from down to nearly horizontal within one fifteenth of a second. If the opponent DI's, you have to recognize the direction of their DI and counter it by moving the control stick in the appropriate diagonal direction. Your eyes must fire a neuron impulse to your brain, which must decipher the information, and send an impulse down your spine, through you arms, and into your fingers. Then your fingers must execute the voluntary action. All of this must be completed in approximately seven hundredths of a second. So far, humans have not evolved to be able to send "voluntary response" signals that fast, hence, the waveshine infinite is impossible, even if one has the technica skill to do it perfectly, which, by the way, represents a very small percentage of the smash population compared to those who can Wobble perfectly. One shine will usually not kill an opponent. One grab will cause a kill much more often than a shine will, even if the Wobble is banned. However, with the Wobble banned, at least the ratio of grabs to kills increases somewhat. Peach's downsmash will not cause a kill if it connects at 20%, end of that discussion. You can counter Falco's lazers by not being at the same height as them. 20 lazers won't cause death. Trust me, with Falco's running speed and horizontal jump distance, camping lazers to 100% is not an option against most characters. However, I will agree that SHL is cheap and broken, just not to the extent that Wobbling is. Marth's f-smash is very laggy, and one of Marth's moves won't cause death to any DIing opponent. Not broken. Not cheap. Sheik cannot zero-death many characters with d-throw, if any, especially when you factor in DI and human reflexes. Not cheap, not broken. Well, maybe cheap, but not broken. Here are my definitions of cheap and broken so you can see my justification for calling the Wobble by these terms.
Cheap: yielding results disproportionate to the required input skill. Input skill, looking at another game while tapping A at 200bpm. Result, a stock.
Broken: An unintended programming flaw in a game's development, esp. one resulting in an overpowered technique. I don't believe that the programmers wanted an infinite in SSBM. I think it was a development flaw, therefore Wobbling is broken.
Now, I understand that people must use cheap and broken tactics to win tournaments. Despite what you would lead others to believe by your angry, insulting tone, I'm not an idiot. However, when a technique becomes too cheap and broken to be realistically countered, I feel that it should get the ax in competitive play. For example, if Giga Bowser was a playable character without AR, I would advocate his banning because he would be overly cheap, even though a Fox could beat him by JC infinite shining him to 999%. If that makes me a scrub, then yes, I am a scrub, and I'm proud of it.
To Dragon Hawk: I've already acknowledged why I believe that realistically, the waveshiner will mess up. I understand your firrst argument that we should let more tourneys play out before banning the infinite, and quite frankly, I think it's a good argument. I think we'll just have to diagree on whether or not theory trumps reality. You're a realist; I'm a theoreticist, and I think we're just going to have to leave it at that. That is why I feel comfortable advocating a technique's banning before everyone begins to use it, and you don't.
The problem with Falcon as going even with IC's is that IC's have two shields. You may shield stun Nana, and that gets you grabbed and killed. This acually happens very often when I play. Nana's light shield prevents Popo from incurring shield stun, so that even with L-Cancelling, Falcon does not have the seven frames necessary to end his lag, and then jump or run or jab. Your last argument also makes sense, but with the Wobble, no character would counter the IC's except the IC's, IMO, and we need every character to have some kind of counter in order to keep the game balanced. I went over this in more depth in an earlier post, I believe, if you care to look.
To Shai Hulud: Sometimes it is zero death because the opponent may be using another attack, expect it to hit, and be examinimg his follow up. By the time he/she realizes the IC's have a grab, the headbutt is already being delivered. The IC's of course, are expecting a grab. If the opponent's attack hits, then the opponet's follow up will likely hit, too, because DI will not occur, but even that will not cause death. If the grab, which outprioritizes every attack, connects, then the IC's will be ready with the follow-up headbutt before the opponent is ready with the follow up button mashing. Rarely does an opppnent expect to be grabbed, (unless they miss an L-Cancel or something) especiallly if the opponent is being agressive, hence, your headbutt will often land before the opponet breaked out, almost certainly at 20%, often at 0%. Either way, 20% isn't hard at all to obtain. Almost any stray attack will give that to you if you have some kind of follow up or if Nana happens to be present. If the opponent is solely attacking Nana, the Popo can wavedash up and use his disjointed hammer to add damage and halt the Nanownage. The IC's can also combo into a grab, which isn't too hard. If Peach downsmashes, I believe you can shield, the shieldstun will push you away from it's hitbox, and you can wavegrab during the d-smash's endlag. This is not overly difficult. Also, separated Climbers due to downsmash certainly does not Mean Nana death. just attack the Peach while she's attacking Nana. If you are at the edge of the stage you have to be quick but it's still entirely possibe. You can also jump out and save Nana, landing in the center of the stage to get a better position. Although Peach will probably, with both players being at equal skill, get 2.5 d-smashes for every synced-grab you get, your grabs will end the stock, and her d-smashes will accumulate about 25% on the IC's, except for those idealized conditions where Nana goes flying off the edge of the stage, and Popo can't attack Peach before she levitates off the stage and hits Nana with her iron ***. Just don't hang near the edge. When every synced grab equals a stock, the matchup is even without human error. With both players making mistakes, well, umm... yeah, you know.
That was by far the longest post I have ever made.
