Why this will be the next Melee(to an extent)

[Nohbl]

I'm not a Melee hater like some of the people around here it seems... However, I despise wavedashing. If Smash 5 has wavedashing, I swear I will not even be interested.

>I hate not needing to roll all the time

Edge hogging seems to one of the more divisive mechanics. I personally find it adds an extra layer of depth, but I get why others might not like it. If they do gear towards the competitive crowd, I wonder if they'll give you an option to turn things off? Mario Aces makes me think it's not out of the realm of possibility.

In Project M, players have the option of enabling auto-L-cancelling. I'm not sure a lot of people ITT understand what L-canceling is---it reduces landing lag on your character's aerials---lag that, without L-cancelling, you would be forced to deal with (L-cancelling is only important because landing lag is a thing. In traditional fighting games, landing lag is not a thing). But the point is that you have the option in PM of effectively "turning off" lag, or leaving lag on. I would say this adds a noticeable improvement to the quality of the game both in itself, and insofar as it gives players more choices.

I really like the suggestion you bring up here for that reason. Smash 5 could give players a whole lot of freedom to decide how they want to play---including, as you point out here, whether to allow ledge trumping or not---in the form of extra match settings. But why stop there? What about an option for directional airdodging, or an option for different styles of directional influence (DI)? The possibilities are many. I think this approach would completely solve the issue we run into ITT and elsewhere of people preferring different styles of Smash, by simply including both and letting players choose which to use.

Protip: Balance patches don't really indicate that Sakurai cared about competitive play. In fact, I would argue Sakurai's balance patches for Sm4sh hurt the game's competitive longevity by actively removing mechanics and severely reducing the powers of characters across the board (except for notable buffs to some heavies).

Well, did he not nerf Dicky Kong and Shriek at some point after they'd emerged as top dogs in tourney?

I would just say that Sakurai's notion of """balance""" is straight up terrible, and has been since SSBM.

 

[R3D3MON]

Well, did he not nerf Dicky Kong and Shriek at some point after they'd emerged as top dogs in tourney?

Yep, that's exactly what I was referring to, as well as nerfs to the DLC top tiers, greninja, little mac, D3, (these characters were nerfed even before smash wii u hit the market, jesus christ), mario, luigi, etc, etc.

I still chuckle at Sakurai stating Samus was the strongest character when smash 4 came out, lol.

 

[Idon]

Listen, as much as I love P:M, it's clear Sakurai and the design team have no desire to ever go back to that style of combat ever again.

 

[Nohbl]

Listen, as much as I love P:M, it's clear Sakurai and the design team have no desire to ever go back to that style of combat ever again.

Who cares what Sakurai desires

 

[Idon]

Who cares what Sakurai desires

Well he calls the shots on this type of stuff, so if he still doesn't like what Melee was after 15 years, he's probably not going to make 5 like that.

I really hope Switch modding becomes as popular as it did for the Wii so that some other guys can change 5 though.

 

[osby]

Well he calls the shots on this type of stuff, so if he still doesn't like what Melee was after 15 years, he's probably not going to make 5 like that.

I really hope Switch modding becomes as popular as it did for the Wii so that some other guys can change 5 though.

I think he likes Melee, once he called it "the sharpest in the series", but it was both extremely taxing to develop and the controls were pretty beginner unfriendly.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Please do not double post. Edit your messages instead.

 

[LancerStaff]

Well, did he not nerf Dicky Kong and Shriek at some point after they'd emerged as top dogs in tourney?

I would just say that Sakurai's notion of """balance""" is straight up terrible, and has been since SSBM.

He balances for FFAs, not 1v1s.

 

[Just a random scrub]

He balances for FFAs, not 1v1s.

I mean, many characters considered bad in free-for-alls were nerfed (Sheik) and many characters known for doing very well in 4 player matches (Bowser) got buffed by the patches, so that's kinda debatable.

 

[LancerStaff]

I mean, many characters considered bad in free-for-alls were nerfed (Sheik) and many characters known for doing very well in 4 player matches (Bowser) got buffed by the patches, so that's kinda debatable.

Sheik is not bad for FFAs. Bowser is not super OP god tier in FFAs... Before that last Sheik patch I’d say she was in the upper half, and Bowser is definitely in the lower.

 

[Jamisinon]

While I'd love a game closer to Melee than Sm4sh (just my personal preference, plz no pitchforks) I don't see it happening. It's possible the influence of esports could change certain things. But I think best case scenario you see rage & untechable tumble removed and perhaps we get some better competitive stages. That way there won't be all the annoyance with Duck Hunt and Lylat.
While I do think air dodges and shields could be nerfed from their current state in Sm4sh I doubt they will be drastically changed i.e.wavedashing, L-cancelling, old ledge mechanics. I just think think it's simply not going to happen.
But I also think you don't have to make Melee 2.0 to improve the game from what Sm4sh is. You could buff the overall game speed, reduce endlag across the board, do a lot of easily done things to change the pace of the game. If done right you could get the game to be a 3-stock fight again. But I think that's best case scenario. Even if it's not simply a port, it's still more than likely going to be more similar to the lastest itteration of smash.

 

[Idon]

He balances for FFAs, not 1v1s.

That makes zero sense.

You can't "balance" for a gamemode that is inherently imbalanced with RNG, multiple fighters, stage hazards and items.

He doesn't things balance at all.

 

[LancerStaff]

That makes zero sense.

You can't "balance" for a gamemode that is inherently imbalanced with RNG, multiple fighters, stage hazards and items.

He doesn't things balance at all.

You can though. Honestly, I don’t get why hardcore Smashers think you can’t...

You look at the data and balance according to the results. Gordos killing too much? Nerf. Little Mac living too long and abusing rage? Nerf side B. It’s as easy as that.

 

[Nohbl]

You look at the data and balance according to the results.

>look at the data for free for alls

 

[CodakTheWarrior]

I think the argument that smash needs to lose a ton of characters and receive a complete makeover in order to cater to the competitive fan base is the biggest load of crap and will no doubt kill the series as a whole. If you disagree with me, come at me; I'd love to explain myself further.

 

[Gimj]

Lol. People actually mad that Diddy and Sheik were nerfed? Diddy and Sheik are still top tier...Smash 4's balance patches were really good, can't believe people are insinuating the opposite. People nitpick small things and ignore the bigger positive picture.


Mewtwo became top tier
Bowser became high tier
Donkey Kong became high tier
Roy became upper tier
Luigi became less kill-confirmy and is still high tier
Greninja was nerfed in some questionable ways maybe, but he is still a higher tier character
Annoying things like Sonic's back throw were nerfed.
etc

Smash 4 is the most balanced Smash of all time. Get outta here with this needless Sakurai balance bashing pls. He did NOT balance it for FFAs, I think to anyone remotely familiar with the competitive scene it is crystal clear that almost all balance changes were for 1v1. Was balance perfect? Of course not. Is it ever feasible to have a perfect balance patch and should we expect it? Of course not. Smash balance is the best it's ever been, and it seems plausible it will only get better.

 

[Idon]

Roy became upper tier

I'm sorry, what?

 

[Gimj]

I'm sorry, what?

Reread the post if you like, or, alternatively, you could stop being empirical data proving the last sentence of my first paragraph correct.

I will refuse to engage you in a pointless Roy debate. You know what I mean.

 

[LancerStaff]

>look at the data for free for alls

The online battle data that Sakurai has been collecting since Brawl? Ringin’ any bells?

He did NOT balance it for FFAs, I think to anyone remotely familiar with the competitive scene it is crystal clear that almost all balance changes were for 1v1.

That’s not even remotely true.

People need to realize that the characters dominating 1v1s with quick kill confirms or safe kill moves will dominate FFAs for the same reasons. It’s not always 1:1 however, which is why we end up with characters like DDD and Puff getting basically nothing for buffs because their tools really only work in FFAs.

Gordos can be tossed into a brawl from a distance and often cause a lot of damage, for example. Or how Rest is often “punished” by relatively harmless dash attacks rather than fully charged Smashes.

 

[Nohbl]

Smash 4 is the most balanced Smash of all time. Get outta here with this needless Sakurai balance bashing pls

>my characters got buffs so stop complaining

<Image Redacted>

The online battle data that Sakurai has been collecting since Brawl? Ringin’ any bells?

>implying many free for alls aren't played offline

 

[Just a random scrub]

Lol. People actually mad that Diddy and Sheik were nerfed? Diddy and Sheik are still top tier...Smash 4's balance patches were really good, can't believe people are insinuating the opposite. People nitpick small things and ignore the bigger positive picture.


Mewtwo became top tier
Bowser became high tier
Donkey Kong became high tier
Roy became upper tier
Luigi became less kill-confirmy and is still high tier
Greninja was nerfed in some questionable ways maybe, but he is still a higher tier character
Annoying things like Sonic's back throw were nerfed.
etc

Smash 4 is the most balanced Smash of all time. Get outta here with this needless Sakurai balance bashing pls. He did NOT balance it for FFAs, I think to anyone remotely familiar with the competitive scene it is crystal clear that almost all balance changes were for 1v1. Was balance perfect? Of course not. Is it ever feasible to have a perfect balance patch and should we expect it? Of course not. Smash balance is the best it's ever been, and it seems plausible it will only get better.

I wish I could like this post more than once.

 

[LancerStaff]

>implying many free for alls aren't played offline

Which is why they collect offline data too. You have to opt out in the options, meaning virtually everybody except for the overly paranoid is sending their data to Nintendo.

Never mind that online play by itself is a very large sample size anyway.

The snark is falling flat, man. Cool your jets.

 

[Nohbl]

Which is why they collect offline data too. You have to opt out in the options

[citation needed]

 

[LancerStaff]

[citation needed]

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Options

Lololol

 

[Nohbl]

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Options

Lololol

What I'm seeing is a Share Info option for tr4sh and not for Brawl.

The online battle data that Sakurai has been collecting since Brawl?

Cite this, pal.

But whatever, it doesn't matter to me if he datamines tr4sh. What I am not sure about is whether or not the data the developers supposedly collect is available to outside parties. That's what was really at issue here.

 

[LancerStaff]

What I'm seeing is a Share Info option for tr4sh and not for Brawl.


Cite this, pal.

But whatever, it doesn't matter to me if he datamines tr4sh. What I am not sure about is whether or not the data the developers supposedly collect is available to outside parties. That's what was really at issue here.

When he announced for fun and for glory he said he made the modes based on data collected from Brawl. It’s in the direct. That I don’t think had a toggle, and I don’t think it it matters as much either considering they couldn’t really patch Brawl.

I not even once claimed the data is available for outsiders. Nor do I see how it’s relevant.

Sakurai has more than enough data to balance FFAs with. Every balance change he okay’d was geared for FFAs.

 

[Nohbl]

I not even once claimed the data is available for outsiders. Nor do I see how it’s relevant.

You look at the data and balance according to the results. Gordos killing too much? Nerf. Little Mac living too long and abusing rage? Nerf side B. It’s as easy as that.

Didn't claim it, but it implied it. Go read my response again and follow on down.

Where the argument stands now is that while Sakurai and his team may have collected data, we don't know the nature of the data he collected. Therefore it's not certain that the claim "Sakura balances according to FFAs" is true. Need to know if they collect offline data, and if so, how that appears to them; from there, we can guess what they can do with the data, and extrapolate from that whether this claim has any weight to it. Without all that, it's dubious that it does.

It's clear in your post you were primarily talking about tr4sh, however. In that case, your link still doesn't explain the required information---only that some kind of data is being collected. Did the team look at offline tr4sh replays, for example? Beats me.

 

[DLEAF]

If they do make Smash 5 more like Melee, I'd be all for it. I never played Melee as a kid, so if a newer, more fleshed-out and accessible version of Melee came out, I'd totally be down.

Or maybe all I want is a port, either way.

 

[LancerStaff]

Didn't claim it, but it implied it. Go read my response again and follow on down.

Where the argument stands now is that while Sakurai and his team may have collected data, we don't know the nature of the data he collected. Therefore it's not certain that the claim "Sakura balances according to FFAs" is true. Need to know if they collect offline data, and if so, how that appears to them; from there, we can guess what they can do with the data, and extrapolate from that whether this claim has any weight to it. Without all that, it's dubious that it does.

It's clear in your post you were primarily talking about tr4sh, however. In that case, your link still doesn't explain the required information---only that some kind of data is being collected. Did the team look at offline tr4sh replays, for example? Beats me.

You, as in the person actually balancing the game. Aka Sakurai. Was I implying you were doing the balancing?

They are collecting data and balancing the game with it. What do you think they’re collecting data for?

If he is not balancing for FFAs, then what? Obviously not doubles considering it’s been nothing but broken **** from day one. 1v1s? What a ****ing joke. We don’t even have a proper stock tie breaker. This is built to be played competitively? Lololol That leaves us with single player modes, which differs so much between the two games it would be futile and are definitely not balanced anyway, and FFAs. So, FFAs.

 

[MBRedboy31]

Obviously not doubles considering it’s been nothing but broken **** from day one.

If they don’t care about doubles, then why did they nerf the doubles PSI Magnet / Pocket / Oil Panic strats? Remember that those strats only really apply when team attack is on, which isn’t the standard on With Anyone.

 

[Gimj]

That’s not even remotely true.

People need to realize that the characters dominating 1v1s with quick kill confirms or safe kill moves will dominate FFAs for the same reasons. It’s not always 1:1 however, which is why we end up with characters like DDD and Puff getting basically nothing for buffs because their tools really only work in FFAs.

Gordos can be tossed into a brawl from a distance and often cause a lot of damage, for example. Or how Rest is often “punished” by relatively harmless dash attacks rather than fully charged Smashes.

What are you talking about? You actually think DK and Bowser got buffed purely for FFA? I almost don't know what to say because it's so obviously not true. Evidently, you believe this so I am truly sorry for insulting your intelligence. Sorry I'm just sincerely astonished. Although I remember your name from another thread and I do recall being quite amazed at what you aggressively complained about or argued about. You are aware that your reply was pretty much tantamount to: "No u" Right? Your post has the slightest HINT of an actual argument which I will address. For the most part you just asserted I'm wrong with nothing to back it up.


K, now to your "point":

The one argument I could find against the fact Sakurai doesn't balance for 1v1s is the claim "...which is why DDD and Puff get basically nothing for buffs b/c their tools only work in FFAs."(the part where you said kill confirms work in FFA Is literally a nonsequitur so I'm ignoring that)

Uh this is a bold-faced assumption. Even if true, you still are also proving my nitpicker stereotype correct. If DDD and Jiggly were solely balanced for FFA, it still does not prove Sakurai doesn't balance for 1v1. If 90% of the other changes were for 1v1, would it matter if DDD and Jiggs weren't? Don't you realize that them not buffing Puff and DDD does not necessarily mean it's because of FFA? You do know there are other possible explanations in the universe? And Puff and DDD are far from "OP" in FFA. Not even casuals think this, so you are pulling this out of thin air. What if they did not want to buff them from other reasons? What if it's an oversight? What if other characters concerned them more? What if they viewed these characters as intentional in their balance? What if Puff is meant to be the "joke" character of sorts? What if Sakurai simply thought DDD and Puff were viable enough to play?

I'm not saying any specific reason is correct, but I think each one is far more likely than your "FFA balance theory" by a long shot.

If you want to make an actually cogent argument to support "Sakurai doesn't balance for 1v1s", I'm ready to see it. But then again, you are factually incorrect so it's pretty impossible for you anyway. If you want to double down, in my next post I can go through the history of all the patch notes line by line and demonstrate that probably 98% are for 1v1s. That way, you can be demonstrated to be wrong. I have no idea why I need to tell you this.

>my characters got buffs so stop complaining

That moment when they try to insult you and strawman you at the same time in a discussion.​

You really are entertaining. Do you need another "unbiased" example(I only main Mewtwo and don't play Smash4 Bowser but k)? Here it is: Marth.

Wow, another character buffed to 1v1 relevance through balance patches. I wonder if you knew this already and simply want to complain. I'm just stating(what I seem to think) is not up for debate. I assumed everyone pretty much recognized the vast majority of balance patches were for competitive play...

If he is not balancing for FFAs, then what? Obviously not doubles considering it’s been nothing but broken **** from day one. 1v1s? What a ****ing joke. We don’t even have a proper stock tie breaker. This is built to be played competitively? Lololol That leaves us with single player modes, which differs so much between the two games it would be futile and are definitely not balanced anyway, and FFAs. So, FFAs.

Here's a challenge:

Post more than 3 FFA-exclusive character balance changes. If that's too much, put just 2. Do note this is extremely generous due to how many balance changes in total there are in the history of Smash 4. If Sakurai NEVER balances for 1v1s, and only FFAs, it should be very easy.

"What a ******* joke" is not an argument. Not having a "proper stock tie breaker" is not an argument(whatever that means). "This is built to be played competitively? Lololol" is not an argument.

So yeah, meet the challenge if you want to be taken seriously. Otherwise I suggest you stop with your emotional ramblings.

​

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

You really are entertaining. Do you need another "unbiased" example(I only main Mewtwo and don't play Smash4 Bowser but k)? Here it is: Marth.

Wow, another character buffed to 1v1 relevance through balance patches. I wonder if you knew this already and simply want to complain. I'm just stating(what I seem to think) is not up for debate. I assumed everyone pretty much recognized the vast majority of balance patches were for competitive play...

Some people like to pretend that they didn't care about the balance and ignore those patches that were provided for competitive play. That's because for many of them "competitive play" is a term that serves as a vehicle for their personal wants and desires. So if it's not about something they like, they pretend that it doesn't count.

Notice how they only quoted a portion of what you said in a desperate attempt to invalidate the whole point; the beauty of cherry picking an argument in such a way is that it makes that person feel smarter for laser-focusing on a small part without adding anything worthwhile.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but using it to attack and insult others who think differently can result in warnings or infractions. Personal attacks isn’t constructive for the thread or the conversation at hand.

 

[R3D3MON]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but using it to attack and insult others who think differently can result in warnings or infractions. Personal attacks isn’t constructive for the thread or the conversation at hand.

Neither is bad trolling. Roy is "upper" tier in sm4sh? Hmm...

Oh yeah, marth went from terribad low tier to semibad mid-high tier in a game full of seriously weak characters.
This is so blatantly close-minded when you actually think about what the character has been fully capable in literally every other smash titles (INCLUDING BRAWL LMAO).

Congrats to Sakurai for buffing terrible heavies, but those buffs were too little too late. He (or more likely Bandai Namco, but I digress) should have been doing that day one to everybody else.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Congrats to Sakurai for buffing terrible heavies, but those buffs were too little too late. He (or more likely Bandai Namco, but I digress) should have been doing that day one to everybody else.

It's very easy to say that in hindsight, but there is no such thing as buffing characters from day one. It takes months of testing to balance a cast of fighters but the real experimentation begins after the game has been released because you have thousands of players around the globe labbing characters and creating their own scenarios at their own leisure, crafting situations that developers didn't even foresaw. That's why nowadays fighting games tend to get balance patches after release, when you can see the results of their testing applied. It takes time to achieve balance.

People also ought to stop romanticizing a character's past status as a high tier character as a measuring stick for overall game balance. Every iteration in a fighting game series has their own version of a character whose prowess will fluctuate from entry to entry most of the time. Like Melee Mewtwo and Smash 4 Mewtwo.

 

[Gimj]

Some people like to pretend that they didn't care about the balance and ignore those patches that were provided for competitive play. That's because for many of them "competitive play" is a term that serves as a vehicle for their personal wants and desires. So if it's not about something they like, they pretend that it doesn't count.

Notice how they only quoted a portion of what you said in a desperate attempt to invalidate the whole point; the beauty of cherry picking an argument in such a way is that it makes that person feel smarter for laser-focusing on a small part without adding anything worthwhile.

Fantastic analysis, couldn't have said it better myself. I might have to save this quote in my computer because of how true it rings.

Neither is bad trolling. Roy is "upper" tier in sm4sh? Hmm...

Oh yeah, marth went from terribad low tier to semibad mid-high tier in a game full of seriously weak characters.
This is so blatantly close-minded when you actually think about what the character has been fully capable in literally every other smash titles (INCLUDING BRAWL LMAO).

Congrats to Sakurai for buffing terrible heavies, but those buffs were too little too late. He (or more likely Bandai Namco, but I digress) should have been doing that day one to everybody else.

Still on your Roy kick eh? Does the term "upper" offend you? Would you mind I said: "Roy balanced into an upper tier that is not bottom"? That glorious cherrypick on display here. Oh yeah, I'm a troll. A person going AT LENGTH to dispute your asinine claims that have no basis except in your emotional psychological triggers for Smash 4. You use every response I make to vomit out more unfounded hatred for Smash 4. Look, I'm all for venting it's a healthy thing. But let's call a spade a spade no?

"Terribad low tier to semibad mid-high tier in a game of seriously weak characters."

I can't believe you are calling Marth a "semibad mid-high tier", lol. He's clearly top-tier, have you even checked the latest tier list? And you have the nerve to complain about my "upper tier" phrasing for Roy. Maybe you are actually a troll, it would explain a lot. Why am I even doing this...If this isn't an example of emotionally-charged nonsense I don't know what is. You are just using any phrase at hand to spew out your extremely deep psychological issues with Smash 4. Are you a Melee purist? Like what is actually your problem? "A game of seriously weak characters"...do you think Bayo, Cloud, Sheik, Ryu, Diddy, Sonic, Rosalina are "weak"? Weak in comparison to what metric? Melee? Most characters are actually strong, due to many of them being viable at a competitive level. Are you just comparing him to Brawl Marth? Melee Marth? Are you mad about that? Well I'm sorry that you miss it, but don't vent to people under the guise of discussion. Marth simply doesn't play as he did in previous titles, that's that. They changed him up and despite that he is still a strong character. I am inclined to agree that past Marth is cooler than Smash 4 Marth, but that doesn't mean I don't clearly see he is a strong top tier character. Nor do I use that non-evidence to support my weird idea that Smash 4 balance patches are not for 1v1. Is Meta Knight "weak" too because he doesn't play like Brawl Meta Knight?

"Congrats to Sakurai for buffing terribles heavies, but those buffs were too little too late."

YOU ARE COMPLAINING THAT SAKURAI BUFFED WEAK CHARACTERS AND MADE THEM VIABLE COMPETITVELY! I literally can't process this in my brain. Too little too late? What are you even on about? Do you prefer Sakurai never buffed them, since it was too late? What if they didn't know how weak they would be in the competitive meta? They saw them therefore underperform, and they buffed them. What is so hard to understand about that? Are you actually complaining we didn't get a day 1 balance patch to cure all low-tier ailments? Too late? Who is Hikaru? Who is Tweek? Who is Nairo? Larry Lurr? If it was "too late" why do these players have success with these characters(DK, Bowser) IN TOURNAMENT? This is the type of sentence where I think I am just doing myself harm by trying to engage it in a reasonable way.

If you are mad that Smash 4 isn't Melee, or like Melee, then out with it. Stop beating around the bush with emotional tantrums that do nothing but make you seem childish. Be honest and admit what is really grinding your gears and stop saying extremely questionable things like "buffing heavies was too little too late." This is a forum for discussion, not a therapy session to vent out your hate for Smash 4. If you have reasonable objections to Smash 4, then we are all open to it. If not, then I suggest you stop posting.

 

[LancerStaff]

If they don’t care about doubles, then why did they nerf the doubles PSI Magnet / Pocket / Oil Panic strats? Remember that those strats only really apply when team attack is on, which isn’t the standard on With Anyone.

Because it was that blatantly broken and ****ty.

In the end they had to come up with a new rule (teammates don’t contribute much to absorbing move anymore) to kill the gimmicks. If they really cared that should of been there day 1.

I personally believe team attack isn’t on because of lag reasons, and that otherwise it would be on.

What are you talking about? You actually think DK and Bowser got buffed purely for FFA? I almost don't know what to say because it's so obviously not true. Evidently, you believe this so I am truly sorry for insulting your intelligence. Sorry I'm just sincerely astonished. Although I remember your name from another thread and I do recall being quite amazed at what you aggressively complained about or argued about. You are aware that your reply was pretty much tantamount to: "No u" Right? Your post has the slightest HINT of an actual argument which I will address. For the most part you just asserted I'm wrong with nothing to back it up.


K, now to your "point":

The one argument I could find against the fact Sakurai doesn't balance for 1v1s is the claim "...which is why DDD and Puff get basically nothing for buffs b/c their tools only work in FFAs."(the part where you said kill confirms work in FFA Is literally a nonsequitur so I'm ignoring that)

Uh this is a bold-faced assumption. Even if true, you still are also proving my nitpicker stereotype correct. If DDD and Jiggly were solely balanced for FFA, it still does not prove Sakurai doesn't balance for 1v1. If 90% of the other changes were for 1v1, would it matter if DDD and Jiggs weren't? Don't you realize that them not buffing Puff and DDD does not necessarily mean it's because of FFA? You do know there are other possible explanations in the universe? And Puff and DDD are far from "OP" in FFA. Not even casuals think this, so you are pulling this out of thin air. What if they did not want to buff them from other reasons? What if it's an oversight? What if other characters concerned them more? What if they viewed these characters as intentional in their balance? What if Puff is meant to be the "joke" character of sorts? What if Sakurai simply thought DDD and Puff were viable enough to play?

I'm not saying any specific reason is correct, but I think each one is far more likely than your "FFA balance theory" by a long shot.

If you want to make an actually cogent argument to support "Sakurai doesn't balance for 1v1s", I'm ready to see it. But then again, you are factually incorrect so it's pretty impossible for you anyway. If you want to double down, in my next post I can go through the history of all the patch notes line by line and demonstrate that probably 98% are for 1v1s. That way, you can be demonstrated to be wrong. I have no idea why I need to tell you this.

Wow, another character buffed to 1v1 relevance through balance patches. I wonder if you knew this already and simply want to complain. I'm just stating(what I seem to think) is not up for debate. I assumed everyone pretty much recognized the vast majority of balance patches were for competitive play...

Here's a challenge:

Post more than 3 FFA-exclusive character balance changes. If that's too much, put just 2. Do note this is extremely generous due to how many balance changes in total there are in the history of Smash 4. If Sakurai NEVER balances for 1v1s, and only FFAs, it should be very easy.

"What a ******* joke" is not an argument. Not having a "proper stock tie breaker" is not an argument(whatever that means). "This is built to be played competitively? Lololol" is not an argument.

So yeah, meet the challenge if you want to be taken seriously. Otherwise I suggest you stop with your emotional ramblings.​

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You whine about boldfaced assumptions and then continue on assuming that characters like Bowser and DK are somehow remotely OP in FFAs? Then you complain about overtly emotional ramblings and emotionally ramble on yourself? Honestly.

I’m sorry but how else do you explain the glut of bottom tiers who got nothing in patches other than the fact that they don’t give a **** about the meta that the tier list is for? Nobody’s that clueless man, especially not somebody who’s been making games as long as Sakurai. People had a rough idea how awful most of the roster was by like day 2. Most of the roster still is awful by that metric.

Yes of course, the man who makes games almost exclusively for casuals decided that the silly little Smash experiment was totes supposed to be ultra competitive. Then let’s make a racer and a shooter controlled with one button between games. Then let’s just not include patch notes. And make time default. And make a ton of content that will literally never apply to competitive play up to and including at least 1/5th the cast. And then not watch tournaments ever, except that one time where he did and nerfed everything to **** because he had no idea what even low level tournaments looked like. And then, instead of adopting rules that the community has agreed on, let’s just go in the complete opposite direction and make FD the only available stage in the “competitive” mode (which lacks any rankings at all btw) and pull the stock tie mechanic out of thin air because why the **** should he listen to the competitive players? Oh and you can’t even use the stock tie mechanic outside of a now defunct mode, so on the remaining “competitive” mode even if you’re ahead 100% you have to play a glorified game of Rock Paper Scissors or wait for somebody to die randomly. Totes a competitive game guiz. There’s absolutely zero reason to think it’s balanced for casuals, none at all.

Like five totally different Final Smashes had tweaks (balance changes, not fixes) and they will literally never apply to competitive play. But that’s basically cheating...

Dorf’s Warlock Punch got super armor on the reverse version. Considering it’s only a teeny tiny bit more powerful when reversed it really only matters in FFAs where it could potentially be unclear which direction he plans on firing.

Bowser’s Flying Slam was made faster post grab and had added invulnerability, which will never make a difference in 1v1s except in very niche situations.

Bowser also had item toss strength buffed, which flies in the face of the notion that Bowser is strong in FFAs. Zard too. And I very much doubt it was to improve their matchup with characters like Peach or Robin...

Never mind the countless “let’s take a character’s Smashes and slightly buff the damage/endlag/knockback” changes which are basically non-buffs in 1v1s but in FFAs it makes all the difference. That’s got to be close to 1/4th the total changes at least.

Considering you’re talking to somebody who helped make up the patch notes (admittedly my job was easy but nonetheless) I think you’re barking up the wrong tree.

 

[Munomario777]

Bowser also had item toss strength buffed, which flies in the face of the notion that Bowser is strong in FFAs. Zard too. And I very much doubt it was to improve their matchup with characters like Peach or Robin...

In both of these cases, the changes to item toss strength went along with increases in their weight. They just changed the values for item toss strength to be in line with those for weight. Same thing happened for Sheik in 1.1.5; her weight decreased, and so did her item toss strength, to compensate. (Curiously, Mewtwo didn't get a tweak to his item toss to match his weight increase, but this is an exception to the pattern, I reckon.)

As far as slight tweaks to smashes / etc go, I don't see how slight changes in frame data are meant to impact FFA any more than they impact 1v1. If anything, I'd think that stuff would impact 1v1 more, since in casual matches, a decent amount of the kills will be items, and in competitive play there's a larger focus on knowing exactly when your moves will KO. Really though, these tweaks have a similar effect on both styles of play.

Aside from that, even, the existence of changes irrelevant to 1v1 =/= a lack of attention given to 1v1.

 

[MBRedboy31]

Because it was that blatantly broken and ****ty.

In the end they had to come up with a new rule (teammates don’t contribute much to absorbing move anymore) to kill the gimmicks. If they really cared that should of been there day 1.

I personally believe team attack isn’t on because of lag reasons, and that otherwise it would be on.

I don’t see how not fixing it day one means they don’t care. Fixing it at all proves that they care at least a little bit. If they didn’t care, they wouldn’t have fixed it.

Team attack defaults to off in in the local multiplayer of every Smash game, including both 64 and Melee where there is no online, so I don’t see why it’d default to on if lag theoretically could be fixed.

(My personal opinion for With Anyone is that it should default to off when playing with strangers, but, in the “For Glory” equivalent and with two local players, it should default to on, given that you can hopefully trust your teammate if they’re also in the room.)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

This thread has derailed quite a bit. It barely has to do with Smash 5 anymore. As the actual posts are becoming increasingly uncivil, the thread will now be locked.